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As of page 44, no more placement QQ in GD.
Ty,
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On January 21 2015 07:59 Eiii wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2015 07:50 PrinceXizor wrote:
I think CertainlyT is just way too high. Darius thresh zed kalista Yasuo Zyra. funny how you just described a bunch of pretty cool champions (except darius) who just so happen to have interesting, flexible kits that grant them a bunch of innate potential for power. now what if every champion was like that???!?!??!?? Basically what I'm saying is that guy is gonna make league an interesting game, whether he has to drag the rest of riot screaming behind him or not.
Zyra was the only champ in 3 years to have gotten hotfixed for being incredibly overpowered.
Darius won every single lane, and would get one kill after another in lane.
Thresh has been banpick forever, despite getting nerfed repeatedly, because broken levels of utility.
Yasuo - windwall, numbers.
Kalista - hello mobility creep.
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On January 21 2015 08:08 Amui wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2015 07:59 Eiii wrote:On January 21 2015 07:50 PrinceXizor wrote:
I think CertainlyT is just way too high. Darius thresh zed kalista Yasuo Zyra. funny how you just described a bunch of pretty cool champions (except darius) who just so happen to have interesting, flexible kits that grant them a bunch of innate potential for power. now what if every champion was like that???!?!??!?? Basically what I'm saying is that guy is gonna make league an interesting game, whether he has to drag the rest of riot screaming behind him or not. Zyra was the only champ in 3 years to have gotten hotfixed for being incredibly overpowered. Darius won every single lane, and would get one kill after another in lane. Thresh has been banpick forever, despite getting nerfed repeatedly, because broken levels of utility. Yasuo - windwall, numbers. Kalista - hello mobility creep.
Release power level isn't a good sign of if a champion is good design. Any champion can be broken if you give them big numbers. A good design is a champion which doesn't wildly swing between op and useless from minor changes.
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When Zed says "muhahaha" he's invulnerable and after he's appeared you're already dead. Ahri never is untargetable, I don't see how they're comparable. You hit Ahri and blow her up. Her charm even is a skillshot, Zed's ult is point and click.
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On January 21 2015 08:19 droserin wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2015 08:08 Amui wrote:On January 21 2015 07:59 Eiii wrote:On January 21 2015 07:50 PrinceXizor wrote:
I think CertainlyT is just way too high. Darius thresh zed kalista Yasuo Zyra. funny how you just described a bunch of pretty cool champions (except darius) who just so happen to have interesting, flexible kits that grant them a bunch of innate potential for power. now what if every champion was like that???!?!??!?? Basically what I'm saying is that guy is gonna make league an interesting game, whether he has to drag the rest of riot screaming behind him or not. Zyra was the only champ in 3 years to have gotten hotfixed for being incredibly overpowered. Darius won every single lane, and would get one kill after another in lane. Thresh has been banpick forever, despite getting nerfed repeatedly, because broken levels of utility. Yasuo - windwall, numbers. Kalista - hello mobility creep. Release power level isn't a good sign of if a champion is good design. Any champion can be broken if you give them big numbers. A good design is a champion which doesn't wildly swing between op and useless from minor changes.
Except you are describing Zed, Yasuo, and Darius who really are either super meta and crowding out champions or useless. Lee sin, on the other hand, just crowds out champions all the time.
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On January 21 2015 08:08 Amui wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2015 07:59 Eiii wrote:On January 21 2015 07:50 PrinceXizor wrote:
I think CertainlyT is just way too high. Darius thresh zed kalista Yasuo Zyra. funny how you just described a bunch of pretty cool champions (except darius) who just so happen to have interesting, flexible kits that grant them a bunch of innate potential for power. now what if every champion was like that???!?!??!?? Basically what I'm saying is that guy is gonna make league an interesting game, whether he has to drag the rest of riot screaming behind him or not. Zyra was the only champ in 3 years to have gotten hotfixed for being incredibly overpowered. Darius won every single lane, and would get one kill after another in lane. Thresh has been banpick forever, despite getting nerfed repeatedly, because broken levels of utility. Yasuo - windwall, numbers. Kalista - hello mobility creep.
I think you're confusing overtuned with unbalanceable. Also you are in no way disproving Eiii's point about the quality of design for these champions.
Zyra - and then she remained a tier2 mid, as well as one of the more interesting supports, before being nerfed for no reason
Darius - viable enough in soloq
Thresh - Thresh has always been in the top 3 of supports, but not always the absolute number 1. Don't see how this is bad
Yasuo - currently balanced, super fun. No problem with windwall
Kalista - you mean the most exciting adc in the current pool being played at pro level?
Also, so much hyperbole about Zed it's unreal. There is so much counterplay vs him it's unreal. Contrary to what you might believe the 3s delay really is important in why he is not toxic. You seriously trying to say that getting blown up by a Fizz is more fun? He doesn't even need ult after a certain item threshold, while Zed needs to use his just to get to you in a teamfight. Oh, not in a teamfight? Then why are you even in his general vicinity?
In solo que currently the most popular assassins are Ahri, Fizz, LB, Katarina, Akali, Zed.Any competent team will cc the assassin the moment he goes in in a teamfight. Okay, Zed R's back and is safe, but so are you. LB can do the same but many times in a fight. Fizz on the other hand laughs at your CC, Akali becomes invisible and has insane spellvamp, Ahri has the most range among these, and Kat has the potential to go insane with resets.
Mind you, I don't think any of these is particularly toxic, since it's much better to just suck it up and outplay the guy (if he is close in items) than bitching to all hell. It seems to me that people are just butthurt that they either get crushed, because they are out of position, or because the enemy assassin is super fed. That's ignoring that in most cases a Xerath or Azir, who is 2 items above everyone else will also absolutely dominate, with the added comfort of not having to go into melee.
On January 21 2015 08:21 Shikyo wrote:
When Zed says "muhahaha" he's invulnerable and after he's appeared you're already dead. Ahri never is untargetable, I don't see how they're comparable. You hit Ahri and blow her up. Her charm even is a skillshot, Zed's ult is point and click.
That is literally in no way true unless you are alone and Zed is very fed. Also, one of Ahri's cores is Zhonia.
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So is the ranked reset in ~9 hrs or have they not 100% confirmed what time tmrw?
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for rivens Q animation cancel, do i have to move click or is it enough to press the "stop" button?
Im bad and i dont know if i do things remotely in the correct way.
It SEEMS faster than normal animations with the stop command, but im not sure.
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to do it manually you have to move command away from your direction than immediately A click your intended auto target. It's not hard but it does take some practice to get the A-click accurate, and in the heat of the moment you will miss if you don't play Riven a lot (or just suck like me)
not sure how it's working on the test center atm
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On January 21 2015 08:43 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2015 08:19 droserin wrote:On January 21 2015 08:08 Amui wrote:On January 21 2015 07:59 Eiii wrote:On January 21 2015 07:50 PrinceXizor wrote:
I think CertainlyT is just way too high. Darius thresh zed kalista Yasuo Zyra. funny how you just described a bunch of pretty cool champions (except darius) who just so happen to have interesting, flexible kits that grant them a bunch of innate potential for power. now what if every champion was like that???!?!??!?? Basically what I'm saying is that guy is gonna make league an interesting game, whether he has to drag the rest of riot screaming behind him or not. Zyra was the only champ in 3 years to have gotten hotfixed for being incredibly overpowered. Darius won every single lane, and would get one kill after another in lane. Thresh has been banpick forever, despite getting nerfed repeatedly, because broken levels of utility. Yasuo - windwall, numbers. Kalista - hello mobility creep. Release power level isn't a good sign of if a champion is good design. Any champion can be broken if you give them big numbers. A good design is a champion which doesn't wildly swing between op and useless from minor changes. Except you are describing Zed, Yasuo, and Darius who really are either super meta and crowding out champions or useless. Lee sin, on the other hand, just crowds out champions all the time.
I was mostly refering to Zyra. It really annoys me when people say she was bad design because "hurp durp, she had to get hotfixed after a day" when afterwards she was fairly balanced for most of the time.
Also, I think Riot's stance on Zed is reasonable. His assassination pattern is probably the healthiest of all the assassins in the game, but he does too much other stuff along with it.
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I'm pretty much fine with assassins that have to go into melee range to dump their damage, even Fizz. Both Fizz and Zed have to commit their ults to initiate their combos, which Ahri and Leblanc don't have to do. Fizz and to a lesser degree Zed both have to commit their defensive abilities to contribute to wave clear while Fizz is susceptible to lane harassment which again LeBlanc and Ahri don't really have to worry about. The next tier of assassins have similar weaknesses. Yasuo has a skill dependant, situational combo. Talon and Akali are both vulnerable to detection. Diana & Pantheon have to commit and don't have much effect if not snowballing. Kat is useless if you build/pick to prevent resets while being a useless laner. Importantly they're all melee.
That said while Ahri and Leblanc annoy me, I'd be fine with none of them being changed significantly (maybe some number tweaks). They're all momentum based and generally easier to deal with once you know how to play and itemise against them. Most importantly there are pretty good itemisation options in the game for dealing with them (Hexdrinker, Zhonyas, Banshees, GA, Warmogs).
The guy who said Riot just want to shake the meta so people don't get bored is spot on. It's immensely frustrating in its relentlessness.
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On January 21 2015 07:27 Alaric wrote:
Defensive nerf: trying reacting to a guy dashing in now. Before you could queue headbutt then cancel over and over, and as soon as the guy dashes in you'd cast and interupt the dash/send him away. But with a skillshot you can't anymore, so shit like, since he's mentioned, Zed, or Fizz, can't be reacted to anymore.
They nerf Zed's AS. Yeah sure, that's exactly what's the issue, and the source of the problems he causes dps-wise. It's only making him slightly worse at killing towers, what a joke. Meanwhile whenever the feel like nerfing another champ, AS goes straight to 0.625 (RIP Pantheon).
The heck is it with their boner for that number, anyway?
.625 is the "base base attack speed". Champions have a value called "attack delay" which modifies their base attack speed(it has nothing to do with their attack animation time). So if their "attack delay" is set to zero then their base attack speed is set to .625. Its just an easy number for them to choose
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It looks like the Alistar change is yet another thing that someone at Riot felt like trying because they could and then accidentally shipped it to the PBE.
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On January 21 2015 09:43 droserin wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2015 08:43 cLutZ wrote:On January 21 2015 08:19 droserin wrote:On January 21 2015 08:08 Amui wrote:On January 21 2015 07:59 Eiii wrote:On January 21 2015 07:50 PrinceXizor wrote:
I think CertainlyT is just way too high. Darius thresh zed kalista Yasuo Zyra. funny how you just described a bunch of pretty cool champions (except darius) who just so happen to have interesting, flexible kits that grant them a bunch of innate potential for power. now what if every champion was like that???!?!??!?? Basically what I'm saying is that guy is gonna make league an interesting game, whether he has to drag the rest of riot screaming behind him or not. Zyra was the only champ in 3 years to have gotten hotfixed for being incredibly overpowered. Darius won every single lane, and would get one kill after another in lane. Thresh has been banpick forever, despite getting nerfed repeatedly, because broken levels of utility. Yasuo - windwall, numbers. Kalista - hello mobility creep. Release power level isn't a good sign of if a champion is good design. Any champion can be broken if you give them big numbers. A good design is a champion which doesn't wildly swing between op and useless from minor changes. Except you are describing Zed, Yasuo, and Darius who really are either super meta and crowding out champions or useless. Lee sin, on the other hand, just crowds out champions all the time. I was mostly refering to Zyra. It really annoys me when people say she was bad design because "hurp durp, she had to get hotfixed after a day" when afterwards she was fairly balanced for most of the time. Also, I think Riot's stance on Zed is reasonable. His assassination pattern is probably the healthiest of all the assassins in the game, but he does too much other stuff along with it.
I agree Zyra could be fine. I don't think she can be fine as a support with high-base damage plants because there just isn't enough waveclear botlane during the lane phase.
Also I agree Zed has a decent assassination pattern...but...there are no healthy assassination patterns in LOL, because unless Kassadin or Ryze are in the game the #1 and #2 Farm priority champions are squishies, which is not how it is in DOTA.
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On January 21 2015 10:18 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2015 09:43 droserin wrote:On January 21 2015 08:43 cLutZ wrote:On January 21 2015 08:19 droserin wrote:On January 21 2015 08:08 Amui wrote:On January 21 2015 07:59 Eiii wrote:On January 21 2015 07:50 PrinceXizor wrote:
I think CertainlyT is just way too high. Darius thresh zed kalista Yasuo Zyra. funny how you just described a bunch of pretty cool champions (except darius) who just so happen to have interesting, flexible kits that grant them a bunch of innate potential for power. now what if every champion was like that???!?!??!?? Basically what I'm saying is that guy is gonna make league an interesting game, whether he has to drag the rest of riot screaming behind him or not. Zyra was the only champ in 3 years to have gotten hotfixed for being incredibly overpowered. Darius won every single lane, and would get one kill after another in lane. Thresh has been banpick forever, despite getting nerfed repeatedly, because broken levels of utility. Yasuo - windwall, numbers. Kalista - hello mobility creep. Release power level isn't a good sign of if a champion is good design. Any champion can be broken if you give them big numbers. A good design is a champion which doesn't wildly swing between op and useless from minor changes. Except you are describing Zed, Yasuo, and Darius who really are either super meta and crowding out champions or useless. Lee sin, on the other hand, just crowds out champions all the time. I was mostly refering to Zyra. It really annoys me when people say she was bad design because "hurp durp, she had to get hotfixed after a day" when afterwards she was fairly balanced for most of the time. Also, I think Riot's stance on Zed is reasonable. His assassination pattern is probably the healthiest of all the assassins in the game, but he does too much other stuff along with it. I agree Zyra could be fine. I don't think she can be fine as a support with high-base damage plants because there just isn't enough waveclear botlane during the lane phase. Also I agree Zed has a decent assassination pattern...but...there are no healthy assassination patterns in LOL, because unless Kassadin or Ryze are in the game the #1 and #2 Farm priority champions are squishies, which is not how it is in DOTA.
So what? The whole point of assassins is high risk, high reward.. If it wasn't worth the effort to try to kill them then nobody would play assassins.
Even if assassins made adcs completely nonviable it wouldn't break the game. ADC is the only type of champ that is in every game. You often don't see AP carries, don't see assassins, don't see bruisers, don't see tanks, don't see melee supports, don't see ranged supports, but you always see adcs. Games without adcs would be fun to see though I doubt we ever will, maybe if there's some duo lane combos that can match adc+support.
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On January 21 2015 10:17 droserin wrote:
It looks like the Alistar change is yet another thing that someone at Riot felt like trying because they could and then accidentally shipped it to the PBE.
That's sort of the whole point of PBE though... Is to try crazy ideas and get more data points. What should be frightening when it shows up on PBE is the fact that someone actually thought that it might remotely be a good idea.
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On January 21 2015 10:34 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2015 10:17 droserin wrote:
It looks like the Alistar change is yet another thing that someone at Riot felt like trying because they could and then accidentally shipped it to the PBE. That's sort of the whole point of PBE though... Is to try crazy ideas and get more data points. What should be frightening when it shows up on PBE is the fact that someone actually thought that it might remotely be a good idea.
The problem with that is while in theory that's right, that isn't how Riot's treated the PBE before this year. Before season 5, the PBE has been "We're 90% sure we're going to go with this unless something goes in by mistake." Afterwards, they might make a small nudge here or there by an overwhelming majority of changes just go through. The community has taken this to be an early indication of the coming patch, and for good reason.
Now, Riot has said they wanted to be more exploratory with the PBE this year, but until they consistently give the PBE bait and switch on major things the community will continue on reacting the way that it has.
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On January 21 2015 10:34 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2015 10:17 droserin wrote:
It looks like the Alistar change is yet another thing that someone at Riot felt like trying because they could and then accidentally shipped it to the PBE. That's sort of the whole point of PBE though... Is to try crazy ideas and get more data points. What should be frightening when it shows up on PBE is the fact that someone actually thought that it might remotely be a good idea.
It only showed up on the PBE because someone at Riot once again accidently shipped things they were messing around with on their box.
I don't see what's wrong with testing something like this. It has a very low chance of making it live, but I'm sure Riot learned something by trying this. Because of how wrong theorycrafting often is, it's pretty worth it to test random shit just to see how it plays out.
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On January 21 2015 10:27 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2015 10:18 cLutZ wrote:On January 21 2015 09:43 droserin wrote:On January 21 2015 08:43 cLutZ wrote:On January 21 2015 08:19 droserin wrote:On January 21 2015 08:08 Amui wrote:On January 21 2015 07:59 Eiii wrote:On January 21 2015 07:50 PrinceXizor wrote:
I think CertainlyT is just way too high. Darius thresh zed kalista Yasuo Zyra. funny how you just described a bunch of pretty cool champions (except darius) who just so happen to have interesting, flexible kits that grant them a bunch of innate potential for power. now what if every champion was like that???!?!??!?? Basically what I'm saying is that guy is gonna make league an interesting game, whether he has to drag the rest of riot screaming behind him or not. Zyra was the only champ in 3 years to have gotten hotfixed for being incredibly overpowered. Darius won every single lane, and would get one kill after another in lane. Thresh has been banpick forever, despite getting nerfed repeatedly, because broken levels of utility. Yasuo - windwall, numbers. Kalista - hello mobility creep. Release power level isn't a good sign of if a champion is good design. Any champion can be broken if you give them big numbers. A good design is a champion which doesn't wildly swing between op and useless from minor changes. Except you are describing Zed, Yasuo, and Darius who really are either super meta and crowding out champions or useless. Lee sin, on the other hand, just crowds out champions all the time. I was mostly refering to Zyra. It really annoys me when people say she was bad design because "hurp durp, she had to get hotfixed after a day" when afterwards she was fairly balanced for most of the time. Also, I think Riot's stance on Zed is reasonable. His assassination pattern is probably the healthiest of all the assassins in the game, but he does too much other stuff along with it. I agree Zyra could be fine. I don't think she can be fine as a support with high-base damage plants because there just isn't enough waveclear botlane during the lane phase. Also I agree Zed has a decent assassination pattern...but...there are no healthy assassination patterns in LOL, because unless Kassadin or Ryze are in the game the #1 and #2 Farm priority champions are squishies, which is not how it is in DOTA. So what? The whole point of assassins is high risk, high reward.. If it wasn't worth the effort to try to kill them then nobody would play assassins. Even if assassins made adcs completely nonviable it wouldn't break the game. ADC is the only type of champ that is in every game. You often don't see AP carries, don't see assassins, don't see bruisers, don't see tanks, don't see melee supports, don't see ranged supports, but you always see adcs. Games without adcs would be fun to see though I doubt we ever will, maybe if there's some duo lane combos that can match adc+support.
And this alleged high risk/high reward tradeoff has consistently not worked at the pro level. Assassins are either good enough to be generalist picks, or are unpicked.
I totally agree that there could be a subset of champions that were a hard counter to ADCs, and that could work, but that would only be the case if ADCs were the only thing that such a champion worked on, which is not true for assassins. Assassins counter/can combo several mages (many popular) of various archetypes, and counter many different kinds of supports, and because of how LOL works, realistically are fairly good splitpushers. And most have AOE damage.
No no. An assassin would be balanced in LOL if she operated like the old Leblanc (with shitty waveclear, and not that great in lane) plus there were only 1 or 2 good targets for assassins in your average game instead of 2-4 like we have now.
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On January 21 2015 10:56 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2015 10:27 Slayer91 wrote:On January 21 2015 10:18 cLutZ wrote:On January 21 2015 09:43 droserin wrote:On January 21 2015 08:43 cLutZ wrote:On January 21 2015 08:19 droserin wrote:On January 21 2015 08:08 Amui wrote:On January 21 2015 07:59 Eiii wrote:On January 21 2015 07:50 PrinceXizor wrote:
I think CertainlyT is just way too high. Darius thresh zed kalista Yasuo Zyra. funny how you just described a bunch of pretty cool champions (except darius) who just so happen to have interesting, flexible kits that grant them a bunch of innate potential for power. now what if every champion was like that???!?!??!?? Basically what I'm saying is that guy is gonna make league an interesting game, whether he has to drag the rest of riot screaming behind him or not. Zyra was the only champ in 3 years to have gotten hotfixed for being incredibly overpowered. Darius won every single lane, and would get one kill after another in lane. Thresh has been banpick forever, despite getting nerfed repeatedly, because broken levels of utility. Yasuo - windwall, numbers. Kalista - hello mobility creep. Release power level isn't a good sign of if a champion is good design. Any champion can be broken if you give them big numbers. A good design is a champion which doesn't wildly swing between op and useless from minor changes. Except you are describing Zed, Yasuo, and Darius who really are either super meta and crowding out champions or useless. Lee sin, on the other hand, just crowds out champions all the time. I was mostly refering to Zyra. It really annoys me when people say she was bad design because "hurp durp, she had to get hotfixed after a day" when afterwards she was fairly balanced for most of the time. Also, I think Riot's stance on Zed is reasonable. His assassination pattern is probably the healthiest of all the assassins in the game, but he does too much other stuff along with it. I agree Zyra could be fine. I don't think she can be fine as a support with high-base damage plants because there just isn't enough waveclear botlane during the lane phase. Also I agree Zed has a decent assassination pattern...but...there are no healthy assassination patterns in LOL, because unless Kassadin or Ryze are in the game the #1 and #2 Farm priority champions are squishies, which is not how it is in DOTA. So what? The whole point of assassins is high risk, high reward.. If it wasn't worth the effort to try to kill them then nobody would play assassins. Even if assassins made adcs completely nonviable it wouldn't break the game. ADC is the only type of champ that is in every game. You often don't see AP carries, don't see assassins, don't see bruisers, don't see tanks, don't see melee supports, don't see ranged supports, but you always see adcs. Games without adcs would be fun to see though I doubt we ever will, maybe if there's some duo lane combos that can match adc+support. And this alleged high risk/high reward tradeoff has consistently not worked at the pro level. Assassins are either good enough to be generalist picks, or are unpicked. I totally agree that there could be a subset of champions that were a hard counter to ADCs, and that could work, but that would only be the case if ADCs were the only thing that such a champion worked on, which is not true for assassins. Assassins counter/can combo several mages (many popular) of various archetypes, and counter many different kinds of supports, and because of how LOL works, realistically are fairly good splitpushers. And most have AOE damage. No no. An assassin would be balanced in LOL if she operated like the old Leblanc (with shitty waveclear, and not that great in lane) plus there were only 1 or 2 good targets for assassins in your average game instead of 2-4 like we have now.
Isn't every champion picked consistently in pro level a generalist pick? Nobody plays champs with weak laning phase (unless you count vayne lol), nobody picks champs that can't farm safe from the jungle etc
The reason that it's difficult to design assassins with counterplay is that it's so hard to get past how strong supports are. You need to somehow get your damage off without being CC'd and insta killed. Zed's mechanics with lots of jumps and untargetable period works, because his damage is reliant on hitting certain spells so you can flash away or whatever.
Obviously assassins work on mages and supports but mages have zhonyas and supports aren't worth blowing up most of the time.
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Zed is fine. I ban him every game I don't want to go mid just so my teammates don't pick him.
Also, Lee Sin is fine. When they removed the AS slow he went from strong to balanced.
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EPT
