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Neverhood
United States5388 Posts
On January 16 2015 13:46 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: Misaya's fanbase is huge, he regularly hits 1 million. Even accounting for view count inflation, it's probably like 300k - 400k. Yea it's fucking insane when you tune into twitch and most famous streamers hit ~20-30k and then you see misaya casually chilling with half a mil watching l0l. | ||
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JazzVortical
Australia1825 Posts
Once they change her to be more of a fighter, I predict RoA will be core. | ||
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Kinie
United States3106 Posts
On January 16 2015 14:07 JazzVortical wrote: RoA on Diana feels really, really, really good once it's done. The problem is you need to go RoA first, but she can kill a lot of people at 6, and RoA doesn't give you a supportive spike to do that. RoA + Abyssal + Zhonya makes you feel like a god. Still nothing wrong with double Dring -> Abyssal/Zhonya though. Once they change her to be more of a fighter, I predict RoA will be core. And that's the issue, they need to change/buff Diana to make her be fotm meta again. Personally, all I want to see is this change: Lunar Dash (R) is already known at level 1. The damage scaling is as follows: 40/100/160/220 (+45/50/55/60% AP). | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
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Kinie
United States3106 Posts
On January 16 2015 14:24 Goumindong wrote: If diana is ever to NOT be a toxic shithole of a champion she needs to become non-linear. Like an AP riven. Pretty sure some people would think that's toxic enough, because of how boom/bust Riven is right now. The issue is they want her to be an Assassin/Bruiser AP, but that's the most difficult thing to pull off because of how they have spells work on Mages (in that the majority of their damage comes from the spells, not AAs). Riven is able to pull it off because of three main things: 1. Insane AD scaling on all her abilities. 2. Insane AD scaling on her passive. 3. The ability to 100-0 a squishy if you combo her moves right. It took Riot almost 3 years to get Riven to a "reasonable" level (personally, I think the HP/5 nerf was overhanded, basically made Hydra a required buy on her) and the moment she's FotM again you can be certain that they'll nerf her again. Diana's worse because the moment you have her AP scaling be so good on her spells, she'll just turn into an AP Zed who can tower dive with impunity and survive while taking little actual damage. Giving her the R at level 1 (like I suggested) means that she can gank pre-6 (which is her biggest weakness out of the jungle atm) and it makes her strong but not a guaranteed kill, especially if you nerf the AP on her other skills a bit to compensate for her having the R at level 1. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On January 16 2015 14:33 Kinie wrote: Pretty sure some people would think that's toxic enough, because of how boom/bust Riven is right now. The issue is they want her to be an Assassin/Bruiser AP, but that's the most difficult thing to pull off because of how they have spells work on Mages (in that the majority of their damage comes from the spells, not AAs). Riven is able to pull it off because of three main things: 1. Insane AD scaling on all her abilities. 2. Insane AD scaling on her passive. 3. The ability to 100-0 a squishy if you combo her moves right. It took Riot almost 3 years to get Riven to a "reasonable" level (personally, I think the HP/5 nerf was overhanded, basically made Hydra a required buy on her) and the moment she's FotM again you can be certain that they'll nerf her again. Diana's worse because the moment you have her AP scaling be so good on her spells, she'll just turn into an AP Zed who can tower dive with impunity and survive while taking little actual damage. Giving her the R at level 1 (like I suggested) means that she can gank pre-6 (which is her biggest weakness out of the jungle atm) and it makes her strong but not a guaranteed kill, especially if you nerf the AP on her other skills a bit to compensate for her having the R at level 1. Pretty sure Riven at release was actually pretty reasonable level IIRC. But then of course everyone bitched, and Rito overtuned the shit out of her. | ||
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Kinie
United States3106 Posts
On January 16 2015 14:36 wei2coolman wrote: Pretty sure Riven at release was actually pretty reasonable level IIRC. But then of course everyone bitched, and Rito overtuned the shit out of her. I'll admit I don't know how release Riven was (didn't pick up LoL until mid season 3) but my understanding of Riven was that she was basically must pick/ban from shortly after release until after season 2 Worlds when she was hit with the nerf hammer about 11 billion times. And someone else can correct me on this, but wasn't season 2 when Riot released a new champ every 2-3 weeks and didn't really tune them too well and didn't bother buffing/nerfing some until after every major event at the time? | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On January 16 2015 14:41 Kinie wrote: I'll admit I don't know how release Riven was (didn't pick up LoL until mid season 3) but my understanding of Riven was that she was basically must pick/ban from shortly after release until after season 2 Worlds when she was hit with the nerf hammer about 11 billion times. http://lol.gamepedia.com/Riven_-_The_Exile#Patch_History September 20th Hotfix Attack Speed per level increased to 3.5 from 2.9 Base Armor increased to 15 from 12 Broken Wings bonus attack damage ratio increased to 0.7 from 0.6 Ki Shout cast time decreased to 0.25 from 0.5 Valor Shield increased to 60 / 90 / 120 / 150 / 180 from 40 / 70 / 100 / 130 / 160 Cooldown decreased to 10 / 9 / 8 / 7 / 6 from 11 / 10 / 9 / 8 / 7 Wind Slash Cast time decreased to 0.25 from 0.5 Missile speed increased by 10% to 2,200 from 2,000 | ||
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Gahlo
United States35174 Posts
On January 16 2015 14:33 Kinie wrote: Pretty sure some people would think that's toxic enough, because of how boom/bust Riven is right now. The issue is they want her to be an Assassin/Bruiser AP, but that's the most difficult thing to pull off because of how they have spells work on Mages (in that the majority of their damage comes from the spells, not AAs). Riven is able to pull it off because of three main things: 1. Insane AD scaling on all her abilities. 2. Insane AD scaling on her passive. 3. The ability to 100-0 a squishy if you combo her moves right. It took Riot almost 3 years to get Riven to a "reasonable" level (personally, I think the HP/5 nerf was overhanded, basically made Hydra a required buy on her) and the moment she's FotM again you can be certain that they'll nerf her again. Diana's worse because the moment you have her AP scaling be so good on her spells, she'll just turn into an AP Zed who can tower dive with impunity and survive while taking little actual damage. Giving her the R at level 1 (like I suggested) means that she can gank pre-6 (which is her biggest weakness out of the jungle atm) and it makes her strong but not a guaranteed kill, especially if you nerf the AP on her other skills a bit to compensate for her having the R at level 1. No, the issue isn't that they want her to be an Assassin/Bruiser. The last time they gathered public input on what people wanted them to do with Diana, they said she'd have to get off the fence and pick a side to see any healthy play. That she was intended to be a bruiser and that was where they were going to push her. They were discussing being unhappy with the QRR gameplay where she went in, killed somebody and got out, killed somebody and traded herself, or just straight up died. There was discussions of switching her E and R while accommodating Moonfall to make it be "ult" worthy. On January 16 2015 14:41 Kinie wrote: I'll admit I don't know how release Riven was (didn't pick up LoL until mid season 3) but my understanding of Riven was that she was basically must pick/ban from shortly after release until after season 2 Worlds when she was hit with the nerf hammer about 11 billion times. And someone else can correct me on this, but wasn't season 2 when Riot released a new champ every 2-3 weeks and didn't really tune them too well and didn't bother buffing/nerfing some until after every major event at the time? With Riven, Riot made 2 number sets. One lowballed to be on the safe side, because one of the goals was "how ridiculous do we need to make AD ratios to make a top laner NOT buy metagolem." and another close to her current form. They shipped the lowball one and almost immediately hotfixed her because of how awful it was. She largely didn't see any competitive play, not even at the level of pocket pick and never a meta champ, until Faker brought her out for S3WC. | ||
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
This can be achieved in several ways. First nerf her Q ratio and buff base damage at later ranks. W probably need the same. In exchange she will get some tank stats somewhere... probably a small amount of armor and MR for 2 (?) seconds each time she procs her passive, stackable 5 (?) times. She also need another way to get these stacks, probably through each cast of R. Basically, if you can keep landing Q, you can keep using R and you more and more resist. If your R train fails, you can still keep up your stacks if you can keep autoing someone. If not, you are fucked. | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On January 16 2015 14:33 Kinie wrote: Pretty sure some people would think that's toxic enough, because of how boom/bust Riven is right now. The issue is they want her to be an Assassin/Bruiser AP, but that's the most difficult thing to pull off because of how they have spells work on Mages (in that the majority of their damage comes from the spells, not AAs). Riven is able to pull it off because of three main things: 1. Insane AD scaling on all her abilities. 2. Insane AD scaling on her passive. 3. The ability to 100-0 a squishy if you combo her moves right. It took Riot almost 3 years to get Riven to a "reasonable" level (personally, I think the HP/5 nerf was overhanded, basically made Hydra a required buy on her) and the moment she's FotM again you can be certain that they'll nerf her again. Diana's worse because the moment you have her AP scaling be so good on her spells, she'll just turn into an AP Zed who can tower dive with impunity and survive while taking little actual damage. Giving her the R at level 1 (like I suggested) means that she can gank pre-6 (which is her biggest weakness out of the jungle atm) and it makes her strong but not a guaranteed kill, especially if you nerf the AP on her other skills a bit to compensate for her having the R at level 1. No. Riven really isn't boom/bust right now. I mean, maybe if no one plays any peel champions, or brings exhaust, she might be. But otherwise, even if she gets fed, she has a lot of counterplay options. Playing around a fed riven is much easier than playing around a fed X where X is most other champions. The problem with Diana is that she is unbalancable, while riven is. Diana is a linear champion, she goes in one direction and either succeeds or doesn't(for the most part there is no "i am getting out" there are no jukes, there is just raw power, like Xin). Either she has it, and then hits 6 and stomps, or she doesn't, hits 6 and fails. In order to be a balancable fighter you have to have non-linearity and maybe you might also have to have CD dependent engage/disengage. Which are the things that Riven has in spades and makes her perfectly fine as a melee carry/fighter. Also Hydra, as soon as it existed, was always core on Riven both because she needs it in order to clear waves without using her abilities (which are also her engage and disengage, so if she is clearing waves with them then she is vulernable to timed engages) but also because it was, by far the single best melee AD item in the game when it was released. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On January 16 2015 14:50 Sufficiency wrote: I sort of want to see Diana as a bruiser. Her playing pattern would be consist of trying to consistently land Q onher intended target so she can keep getting resets and stick with R. She would build CDR and tank items for the most part with a light dash of AP. I think this would make her sort of between Irelia and Amumu (if this makes sense....). To be a good Diana player, then, you would need to be able to land her curved skilled shot - her signaturd move. This can be achieved in several ways. First nerf her Q ratio and buff base damage at later ranks. W probably need the same. In exchange she will get some tank stats somewhere... probably a small amount of armor and MR for 2 (?) seconds each time she procs her passive, stackable 5 (?) times. She also need another way to get these stacks, probably through each cast of R. Basically, if you can keep landing Q, you can keep using R and you more and more resist. If your R train fails, you can still keep up your stacks if you can keep autoing someone. If not, you are fucked. Nerfing her Q range would also be a decent idea too imo, so she can actually be kited. It would problematic if she could easily stick while being that tanky, especially at such a range. Also her base stats would probably have to be changed, along with buffing her shield (defensive stats of it anyways). Base damages and ratios would have to be completely changed. | ||
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JazzVortical
Australia1825 Posts
Diana - Would benefit from being more clearly an assassin or a fighter, rather than a generalized mixture of the two (a good fit for her personality that unfortunately results in her being hard to give sufficiently clear strengths and weaknesses when strong enough to be picked). In an ok state, would probably require that work be done to get her to what you'd call a really good state/be a character we felt was good for the game if a really common pick. Not currently being worked on. http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/zXf6FiAF-meddler-one-of-these-days-youll-come-to-my-thread-my-kingdom-my-sanctuary?comment=0000 Her kit screams fighter rather than assassin. It makes so much sense. | ||
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JazzVortical
Australia1825 Posts
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
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Kinie
United States3106 Posts
On January 16 2015 15:02 JazzVortical wrote: Riot has said repeatedly that they do not Diana to be a hybrid brusier/assassin, they want to push her in one direction or the other. They know she can't be both, they're just not working on her. She's not entirely problematic as a character, just could be better. Just a couple days ago Meddler said this: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/zXf6FiAF-meddler-one-of-these-days-youll-come-to-my-thread-my-kingdom-my-sanctuary?comment=0000 Her kit screams fighter rather than assassin. It makes so much sense. If they want Diana to be the Fighter, and Akali the Assassin (which I think I'm ok with) then you have to give her shield some better AP ratios or a higher base, as right now it gets popped so easily in an actual team fight. Currently it's good for her sustaining in the jungle. | ||
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kongoline
6318 Posts
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On January 16 2015 14:51 Goumindong wrote: The problem with Diana is that she is unbalancable, while riven is. Diana is a linear champion, she goes in one direction and either succeeds or doesn't(for the most part there is no "i am getting out" there are no jukes, there is just raw power, like Xin). Either she has it, and then hits 6 and stomps, or she doesn't, hits 6 and fails. In order to be a balancable fighter you have to have non-linearity and maybe you might also have to have CD dependent engage/disengage. Which are the things that Riven has in spades and makes her perfectly fine as a melee carry/fighter. I agree current Diana is not balanceable (kind of disagree on most your Riven points, but thats to extraneous to discuss). I don't necessarily think the problem is that Diana can only go in (Fizz and Leblanc go both ways and are consistently problems, while Maokai goes in only and is not too bad unless he is ridiculously overtuned), its that the ability to trade 1-for-1 is inherently overpowered in LOL because you are choosing the target. In other words, if you can be a 2nd or 3rd priority farm champion and delete a priority 1 champion while dying, your OP even if it takes 0 Cooldowns to kill you. What makes this archetype not work (compared to DotA, for instance) is that priority 1 champions are almost always squishy. That Diana and Akali can only go in 1 direction just makes the problem (assassination) more obvious because they have to be even better at the broken mechanic to justify being picked. Edit: So yes, they need to make her a "fighter", if by that you mean a Malphite, Maokai, ChoGath analogue. | ||
739
Bearded Elder29905 Posts
TL;DR you choose 1 up to 5 champion for enemy team. 3 bans per team. I thought they're going to make some kind of fun mode but I guess it's still ok. | ||
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ketchup
14521 Posts
On January 16 2015 16:28 739 wrote: http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/BNBArGmq-nemesis-draft-featured-game-mode-coming-soon-to-the-pbe TL;DR you choose 1 up to 5 champion for enemy team. 3 bans per team. I thought they're going to make some kind of fun mode but I guess it's still ok. I think it will be amazing only because it promotes doing whacky stuff(and it might bleed over to regular games) | ||
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