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1. C9
2. TSM
3. TL
4. Gravity
5. Winterfox
6. CLG
7. Dig
8 TiP
9. T8
10. Coast
I would be surprised if TSM/C9 weren't both in top 3 unless Santorin really underperforms. TL may need to work out mid/jungle synergy but they will be formidable as well. 4-8 seems pretty interchangeable. Gravity is my dark horse for top 3. Winterfox/TiP have some sketchy pick ups, although I am rooting for both Pob/XWX to succeed. Expecting more of the same from Dig/CLG... Just hoping to see some GP top from T8. No expectations really for Coast.
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As a diehard TL fan for many years, dating back to my origin as an SC2 player..
TL just isn't a first place team. They have talent, but they don't have #1 talent at every position. This is the same curse lineup that had flashes of brilliance, but couldn't be relied on to produce shattering performances week after week C9 could. TL can be good, but they aren't #1 good. I have them at 4th and that's where they'll stay, jokes about curse aside.
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On January 10 2015 17:11 Ultrahazardous wrote:
As a diehard TL fan for many years, dating back to my origin as an SC2 player..
TL just isn't a first place team. They have talent, but they don't have #1 talent at every position. This is the same curse lineup that had flashes of brilliance, but couldn't be relied on to produce shattering performances week after week C9 could. TL can be good, but they aren't #1 good. I have them at 4th and that's where they'll stay, jokes about curse aside. it is not the same curse line up at all... Voyboy and Cop were a big part of what Curse was last year.
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I think people are putting way too much value on individual skill here, especially in only 1 or 2 players. Strategy makes the team, especially with the new season, and it's been proven with Cloud 9's fairly consistent top finishes. They've all been decent players, but their strategy has carried them. People putting the likes of Team Impulse in the top 4 when they have a no name support who was a mid main iirc, a mediocre adc at best and 2 star players who speak different languages are really riding on some weird hype. This isn't the team that made it to worlds, this is 1 player who went to worlds. It's like thinking a challenger team picking up a worlds midlaner and another top tier pick from another region would put them in the top 4.
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On January 10 2015 17:11 Ultrahazardous wrote:
As a diehard TL fan for many years, dating back to my origin as an SC2 player..
TL just isn't a first place team. They have talent, but they don't have #1 talent at every position. This is the same curse lineup that had flashes of brilliance, but couldn't be relied on to produce shattering performances week after week C9 could. TL can be good, but they aren't #1 good. I have them at 4th and that's where they'll stay, jokes about curse aside.
No team has "#1 talent in every position." Why would that count against them?
Xpecial is the best support in the league. Piglet was one of the best adcs in the world not that long ago. There's obviously questions about synergy but that could very easily be the best botlane in the league. Quas is behind Balls and potentially Impact, but he's a consistent versatile player who has never been shown up at this level. I'd have Dominate well behind Meteos, but who else is ahead of him? 2013 Xmithie I guess. Helios and Crumbz have too many off days. Impaler? Nah.
There's obviously the question of Fenix and how the team will gel generally, but literally everyone but C9 has significant question marks. You might think other teams will do better at answering theirs (that's the whole fun of the thread) but TL finishing second isn't irirrational at all.
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1. C9
2. TiP - Impact is an improvement over Ackerman, Rush has gotta have great game sense (how does a jungler get no.1 rank in KR?) and better than NoName, and XWX will find a way to farm wraiths again. Adrian's looked good in soloQ setting up for his team. Lane swaps will be the biggest tell, but also whether they do embody the 'impulse spirit' and fight as much as LMQ did.
3. TL
4. TSM
5. Winterfox
6. CLG
7. Gravity
8. Coast
9. Dig - They've got too much work to do.
10. T8
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1.C9 2.TL 3.TSM 4.CLG 5.WFX 6.TiP 7. Gravity 8.Dig 9.CST 10.t8
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On January 10 2015 19:15 DNeon wrote:
I think people are putting way too much value on individual skill here, especially in only 1 or 2 players. Strategy makes the team, especially with the new season, and it's been proven with Cloud 9's fairly consistent top finishes. They've all been decent players, but their strategy has carried them. People putting the likes of Team Impulse in the top 4 when they have a no name support who was a mid main iirc, a mediocre adc at best and 2 star players who speak different languages are really riding on some weird hype. This isn't the team that made it to worlds, this is 1 player who went to worlds. It's like thinking a challenger team picking up a worlds midlaner and another top tier pick from another region would put them in the top 4.
Honestly, I've been putting them down as a bottom 4 team until they announced Impact was returning. Still not sure what difference that'll make.
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1) Team Liquid
2) Cloud 9
3) TSM
4) Winterfox
5) Gravity
6) CLG
7) Impact
8) Dignitas
9) T8
10) Coast
I don't know much about Impact, so it's hard to place them. Otherwise should be 100% accurate though.
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On January 10 2015 19:15 DNeon wrote:
I think people are putting way too much value on individual skill here, especially in only 1 or 2 players. Strategy makes the team, especially with the new season, and it's been proven with Cloud 9's fairly consistent top finishes. They've all been decent players, but their strategy has carried them. People putting the likes of Team Impulse in the top 4 when they have a no name support who was a mid main iirc, a mediocre adc at best and 2 star players who speak different languages are really riding on some weird hype. This isn't the team that made it to worlds, this is 1 player who went to worlds. It's like thinking a challenger team picking up a worlds midlaner and another top tier pick from another region would put them in the top 4.
Having two elite solo lanes (elite for NA, at least) makes everything else easier. There just arent that many teams in NA that play with high level synergy/strategy. Basically its C9 and TSM. The other teams are all either also in a situation where they've got language issues/new lineups/questionably skilled players, or else theyre teams who just don't have the talent to play against XWX and Impact.
Saying Impulse is a top 4 team in NA isn't saying Impulse is going to be really amazing, obviously they have a LOT to prove. But who in the field is clearly better? C9, TSM, probably TL.
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1) Cloud 9
2) Team Liquid
3) Team Solomid
4) Team Impulse
5) Counter Logic Gaming
6) Winterfox
7) Gravity
8) Team Dignitas
9) Team Coast
10) Team 8
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On January 11 2015 12:45 MajorityofOne wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2015 19:15 DNeon wrote:
I think people are putting way too much value on individual skill here, especially in only 1 or 2 players. Strategy makes the team, especially with the new season, and it's been proven with Cloud 9's fairly consistent top finishes. They've all been decent players, but their strategy has carried them. People putting the likes of Team Impulse in the top 4 when they have a no name support who was a mid main iirc, a mediocre adc at best and 2 star players who speak different languages are really riding on some weird hype. This isn't the team that made it to worlds, this is 1 player who went to worlds. It's like thinking a challenger team picking up a worlds midlaner and another top tier pick from another region would put them in the top 4. Having two elite solo lanes (elite for NA, at least) makes everything else easier. There just arent that many teams in NA that play with high level synergy/strategy. Basically its C9 and TSM. The other teams are all either also in a situation where they've got language issues/new lineups/questionably skilled players, or else theyre teams who just don't have the talent to play against XWX and Impact. Saying Impulse is a top 4 team in NA isn't saying Impulse is going to be really amazing, obviously they have a LOT to prove. But who in the field is clearly better? C9, TSM, probably TL.
I feel like this logic is based on the idea that NA doesn't improve. This attitude certainly has its merits based on teams like Dignitas consistently performing well then subsequently crashing as soon as competition gets closer, or the fact that the top 2-3 has always been pretty much the same contenders, or even the fact that the bottom place team is seemingly always a 1 split wonder who barely scraped in and then stayed bottom the entire split. But as a whole I've seen a lot of improvement with the NA scene that isn't being acknowledged.
Things like bottom teams making end of season runs up the standings, the ability for all teams and not just those already successful to start importing talent and the splits genuinely getting closer (especially between the middle of the pack and the top teams) give me a lot of, well, hope, for the NA scene. I know hope isn't something to put confidence into, but it's there nonetheless.
Additionally though, the NA LCS has definitely seen a lot more teams adapting to higher quality of strategic play. Despite a complete and utter blowout at the end of the season, CLG performed quite well during the spring split with a lot of decent strategic play, and Curse made it's end of season run with some not too shabby shotcalling. Sure teams like TSM (a team I'm confused to see you attribute higher level strategy too, given that for that vast majority of last split they were known for simply not losing to teams below them but being incapable of beating the more strategic teams above them) are successful by playing for the most part with merely adequate shotcalling to complement their more impressive mechanical skill. That doesn't mean that the scene isn't getting more strategic in their play.
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My guess for rankings goes something along the lines of:
1. C9
2. TSM
3. TL
4. CLG
5. Winterfox
6. Gravity
7. Team Impulse
8. Dignitas
9. Coast
10. Team 8
I feel like asides from the top 2 and bottom 1, the rest are highly variable and really dependent on fluctuations in play based on patch cycles, team synergy, and the like. Almost all of the teams in the "middle of the pack" are dealing with some semblance of new teammates and especially different language speaking teammates. It's hard to tell where they'll line up.
I don't really have much faith in Team 8, so I have them slotted 10th, though I can easily see teams like Dignitas, Coast, or Impulse contending for the dubious honor of last place. For 1st and 2nd. I see C9 as a definite lock as their strategic understanding of the game just is on a different level than the other teams, and TSM primarily because somehow, some way they find a way to finish somewhere in the Top 2 by the end of the split -- even despite their struggle v. UoL in IEM.
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I'll be simple here, honestly
1- C9
2- TL
3- WFX
4- TSM
5-TiP
6-GRV
7-CLG
8-DIG
9-CST
10-T8
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1- C9
2-TL
3-TiP
4-TSM
5-CLG
6-Gravity
7-Dig
8-WFX
9-CST
10-T8
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The land of freedom23126 Posts
On January 11 2015 12:45 MajorityofOne wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2015 19:15 DNeon wrote:
I think people are putting way too much value on individual skill here, especially in only 1 or 2 players. Strategy makes the team, especially with the new season, and it's been proven with Cloud 9's fairly consistent top finishes. They've all been decent players, but their strategy has carried them. People putting the likes of Team Impulse in the top 4 when they have a no name support who was a mid main iirc, a mediocre adc at best and 2 star players who speak different languages are really riding on some weird hype. This isn't the team that made it to worlds, this is 1 player who went to worlds. It's like thinking a challenger team picking up a worlds midlaner and another top tier pick from another region would put them in the top 4. Having two elite solo lanes (elite for NA, at least) makes everything else easier. There just arent that many teams in NA that play with high level synergy/strategy. Basically its C9 and TSM. The other teams are all either also in a situation where they've got language issues/new lineups/questionably skilled players, or else theyre teams who just don't have the talent to play against XWX and Impact. Saying Impulse is a top 4 team in NA isn't saying Impulse is going to be really amazing, obviously they have a LOT to prove. But who in the field is clearly better? C9, TSM, probably TL.
> TSM
> high-level strategy
Oh God.
Impulse have 3 languages in team and their botlane is nothing impressive on paper, especially adc who wasn't even considered as damage threat in his first split.
XWX had mediocre Worlds and Rush never played competitively as well, add to it that Impact is a workhorse and not carry, so noone will give him Jax all the time.
Putting them as top-4 NA right now is more than overestimation.
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NA LCS:
1 - C9 : C9 looks as strong as always
2 - WFX : I think WFX has alot of potential and they will dominate the split
3 - TL : They look really strong with their roster
4 - TSM : I think them picking up santorin is a downgrade jungler-wise
5 - CST : Overall their roster seems to be pretty OP, they either end at the top or middle
6 - TiP : I think they have alot of potential, but it's just not enough
7 - GRV : They seemed to be a pretty good team in the EXP tournament, but I dont think they can dominate LCS
8 - CLG : The CLG era is over, its do or die for them
9 - DIG : same as clg
10 - T8 : they are propably the worst team right now to be honest
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1- C9
2- TSM
3- CLG
4- CST
5- TL
6- TiP
7- WFX
8- DIG
9- T8
10-GRV
I have little faith in what having one or two mid-tier korean players can do for your team, considering the communication problems it'll generate. It's the Korean training regimen that makes Korean teams the best, not some kind of innate super-human skill.
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On January 11 2015 14:23 DNeon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2015 12:45 MajorityofOne wrote:On January 10 2015 19:15 DNeon wrote:
I think people are putting way too much value on individual skill here, especially in only 1 or 2 players. Strategy makes the team, especially with the new season, and it's been proven with Cloud 9's fairly consistent top finishes. They've all been decent players, but their strategy has carried them. People putting the likes of Team Impulse in the top 4 when they have a no name support who was a mid main iirc, a mediocre adc at best and 2 star players who speak different languages are really riding on some weird hype. This isn't the team that made it to worlds, this is 1 player who went to worlds. It's like thinking a challenger team picking up a worlds midlaner and another top tier pick from another region would put them in the top 4. Having two elite solo lanes (elite for NA, at least) makes everything else easier. There just arent that many teams in NA that play with high level synergy/strategy. Basically its C9 and TSM. The other teams are all either also in a situation where they've got language issues/new lineups/questionably skilled players, or else theyre teams who just don't have the talent to play against XWX and Impact. Saying Impulse is a top 4 team in NA isn't saying Impulse is going to be really amazing, obviously they have a LOT to prove. But who in the field is clearly better? C9, TSM, probably TL. I feel like this logic is based on the idea that NA doesn't improve. This attitude certainly has its merits based on teams like Dignitas consistently performing well then subsequently crashing as soon as competition gets closer, or the fact that the top 2-3 has always been pretty much the same contenders, or even the fact that the bottom place team is seemingly always a 1 split wonder who barely scraped in and then stayed bottom the entire split. But as a whole I've seen a lot of improvement with the NA scene that isn't being acknowledged. Things like bottom teams making end of season runs up the standings, the ability for all teams and not just those already successful to start importing talent and the splits genuinely getting closer (especially between the middle of the pack and the top teams) give me a lot of, well, hope, for the NA scene. I know hope isn't something to put confidence into, but it's there nonetheless. Additionally though, the NA LCS has definitely seen a lot more teams adapting to higher quality of strategic play. Despite a complete and utter blowout at the end of the season, CLG performed quite well during the spring split with a lot of decent strategic play, and Curse made it's end of season run with some not too shabby shotcalling. Sure teams like TSM (a team I'm confused to see you attribute higher level strategy too, given that for that vast majority of last split they were known for simply not losing to teams below them but being incapable of beating the more strategic teams above them) are successful by playing for the most part with merely adequate shotcalling to complement their more impressive mechanical skill. That doesn't mean that the scene isn't getting more strategic in their play.
If you're going to say TSM doesn't play strategically (they're no C9 in that regard, I'll concede), then what does it say about the improvement of the NA LCS that they were one of a grand total of three teams with a winning record AND the eventual split champions? TWO teams had better records and one of those lineups is gone. CLG regressed painfully on the strategic front after spring, I really don't think you can claim they've got an upward trajectory. If anything TSM's success would be an indication of how top talent is more than enough to be a top NA team.
I agree with you that the NA scene has improved, but most of the teams are still flawed, and many of them have to deal with the exact same communication issues as Impulse. I'm ranking Impulse ahead of WFX/Dignitas/CLG/GRV/CST/T8. Of those 6, who has a real case to be made to be top 4? Why should we put WFX/Dignitas ahead of TiP if WFX/Dignitas also have language gaps, but less talented players on paper (apologies to Pobelter and Shiphtur)? T8 simply doesn't have the skill, they might surprise but I think most agree they're going to get completely wrecked this split. Is our old semi-retired buddy SV going to be leading a team to the top 4? Has CST shown us anything worth getting excited over? You might very well disagree, but to me none of these teams has any particular strength that could overcome TiP's solo lane power.
Strangely, CLG is the one team of that group I could really see the argument for....and yet they looked like such a mess in terms of their teamplay against Gambit. Admittedly, that was with a stand-in jungler. They've got a bot lane that should beat Apollo/Adrian. I know I'm doing the "compare individual pieces instead of compare the teams" thing here, but Impact/Rush/XWX vs Zion/Xmithie/Link is on-paper a trio of pretty rough matchups for CLG. You might say this is where they'd overcome TiP by virtue of superior communication, but the CLG of recent memory hasn't shown us that they're more than the sum of their parts. And I think TiP might be exactly the some of their parts, which is probably good enough.
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1. TSM - extremely stacked roster in terms of individual talent, was the case last year as well but with the addition of Santorin who has proven to be a soloq god thus far, and reports of him being near Meteos level in scrims, I would be very surprised if TSM wasn't as strong as last year, when they were the best team in NA.
2. C9 - Solid roster, as always. Hai was their biggest liability in S4 Summer Split, perhaps if he is able to be more stable as a player they will be able to beat out TSM.
3. Team Liquid - Without LMQ here to take 3rd place, Curse (Now Team Liquid), automatically ranks up in my book. A few notes though, I think they have gotten a major downgrade in the mid lane, and I think Piglet is a bit overhyped. Biggest strengths have to be the stability of the rest of the roster. Xpecial is a great support capable of carry-level playmaking. Quas is in contention for best Top laner in the entire region, and rarely is seen exploited by other teams.
4. TiP - Hard to say, because this is essentially a new roster. Looks like they will have strong lanes. I put them here because of reports of their scrim performances.
5. CLG - I think this is the team with the most (Potential) to move up in the actual rankings. From what I understand the team had major personal and communication problems, particularly with the upper half of the map. Link is not as bad as people treat him, Doublelift is in contention for the best ADC in NA still, I believe. Aphromoo is at the very least a great laner. The additions of a top laner who excels in communication and a jungler that Link is able to get along with and talk to, should help them at least not get relegated, but the X factor for this team is how high can they go. My safe bet is 5th place, but I would frankly not be surprised if they soared higher.
6. Team Winterfox - Cool name, in this team importing random Koreans shouldn't be as bad as in other teams since Pobelter and Helios speak Korean (not sure about Altec). ADC has shown ability to come up huge in LCS games, Mid laner is solid enough. Sort of a We'll See team, along with the rest of these bottom 5.
7. Gravity - Curse Academy was a solid lineup, but none of the players stand out as particularly good. I wouldn't bet on any of them to be Top 3 in their position in the Spring Split, but because they appear to be somewhat solid I put them on top of the other teams I expect to have issues.
8. Dignitas - This roster is going to have communication issues, simple as that. Also Kiwikid.
9. Coast - Despite their European imports beating up on shitters in Challenger League, Jesiz and Impaler are not suddenly gods. Good enough that they should beat out Team 8 and avoid auto relegation, but not good enough to beat out teams with actual talent in them.
10. Team 8 - I'm sorry if you're a team 8 fan, but literally the only player on this team that is any good is Calitrolz, and I just don't buy it that he is going to solocarry 4 mediocre like, masters players.
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EPT
