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On July 02 2014 01:11 Gorsameth wrote:
I think the biggest reason for the difference between divisions and MMR is the promotion series. You need to streak to get promoted but you can get demoted without a real streak. Would something like a demotion series, lose 2 out of next 3 games to get demoted, help?
You get demoted if you've lost a bunch of your recent games. Sometimes it's just not obvious because as someone as mentioned earlier, people undervalue our losing streaks.
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On July 02 2014 00:37 xes wrote:
The advantage of the new league system is that Gold V 90 LP is not view as any better or worse than Gold V 45 LP, whereas the granularity of MMR means that small difference are amplified, especially at the XX90 mark, where 1500 is somehow much different than 1490.
This is the same argument why the high level of granularity in SAT scores amplifies the noise rather than bringing any meaningful indicators of performance (and why in signal processing in general, if the incoming information is garbage you can't make it more meaningful no matter how much you amplify it because you just introduce noise).
Sat noise isn't very large. In fact people cry about Sat scores just like they did elo because it's harder to accept how actually a number can define your aptitude (in fact very accurately).
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I think the league system would be really cool if the game automatically (can turn off of course) dropped you into a chat room with the other people in your division, I think it would give divisions more meaning and perhaps produce a sense of rivalry. As is right now I doubt anyone could name anyone in their division that wasn't already on their friends list before joining it.
man this game gets patched way too much for my comfort
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Hey everyone, I was a Dia IV player on EUW about 7 weeks ago but due to exams etc I have not been able to keep up with the recent changes and I am clueless on the basic runes/mastery pages atm. Can you guys give me some advice on runes and masteries? What's a normal bruiser and ADC set-up for example? Cheers.
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United States47024 Posts
On July 02 2014 01:06 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2014 00:14 TheYango wrote:
Most of the time the league system simply isn't giving you less meaningful information than fully visible MMR because any of the extra information you're seeing is just noise. I do think the promotion games cause more issues than they solve. Just having people get promoted like in SC2 may be better(If SC2 still does this, haven't played latest expansion)
That's probably true.
The promotion series originally was implemented because you couldn't get demoted out of tiers, so the system had to be absolutely sure you deserved to advance. Since you CAN get demoted out of tiers now, that level of certainty isn't necessary anymore.
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Is everyone still building athenes first even after the nerf?
I find none of the mana items cut it. This probably has to do with feel, but I hate being forced to back because I have 0 mana. RoA gives a lot of mana but sometimes there'll be a tough fight and you won't have enough mana and the lack of CDR hurts lategame scaling if you don't need the health more.
Morellonomicon has limited uses and requires a perfect scenario for its passive to kick in. It's also just trading 20AP and 400 gold for 25 MR.
I don't think Archangels will kick in early enough.
And even if the support mana items had enough regen, they don't contribute enough to your damage or to your cdr.
Do you sit on chalice?
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On July 02 2014 03:13 obesechicken13 wrote:
Is everyone still building athenes first even after the nerf?
I find none of the mana items cut it. This probably has to do with feel, but I hate being forced to back because I have 0 mana. RoA gives a lot of mana but sometimes there'll be a tough fight and you won't have enough mana and the lack of CDR hurts lategame scaling if you don't need the health more.
Morellonomicon has limited uses and requires a perfect scenario for its passive to kick in. It's also just trading 20AP and 400 gold for 25 MR.
I don't think Archangels will kick in early enough.
And even if the support mana items had enough regen, they don't contribute enough to your damage or to your cdr.
Do you sit on chalice?
I think i only pick up chalice super quick on characters that struggle without a lot of mana and use it to clear, but also if I need the Mres quickly. not sure if thats the best way to handle it or not, but its been working for me to just pick up 2 dorans rings instead of a chalice if mana is the only problem. 8 mana/creep and36 mana regen'd between waves is enough to keep clearing on most champions these days, and 120 hp with 30 ap is more effective expenditure if the Mres isn't vital for your survival. at least it feels like it.
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On July 02 2014 03:13 obesechicken13 wrote:
Is everyone still building athenes first even after the nerf?
I find none of the mana items cut it. This probably has to do with feel, but I hate being forced to back because I have 0 mana. RoA gives a lot of mana but sometimes there'll be a tough fight and you won't have enough mana and the lack of CDR hurts lategame scaling if you don't need the health more.
Morellonomicon has limited uses and requires a perfect scenario for its passive to kick in. It's also just trading 20AP and 400 gold for 25 MR.
I don't think Archangels will kick in early enough.
And even if the support mana items had enough regen, they don't contribute enough to your damage or to your cdr.
Do you sit on chalice?
Last I saw, people still bought it and just dealt with the fact that they had less MR now.
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On July 02 2014 02:45 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2014 01:06 Numy wrote:On July 02 2014 00:14 TheYango wrote:
Most of the time the league system simply isn't giving you less meaningful information than fully visible MMR because any of the extra information you're seeing is just noise. I do think the promotion games cause more issues than they solve. Just having people get promoted like in SC2 may be better(If SC2 still does this, haven't played latest expansion) That's probably true. The promotion series originally was implemented because you couldn't get demoted out of tiers, so the system had to be absolutely sure you deserved to advance. Since you CAN get demoted out of tiers now, that level of certainty isn't necessary anymore.
borderline superficial fix outside of ELO boosting (which is likely all riot cares about) your mmr has to drop to rank 5 of the tier below you to actually drop out of a tier (aka pretty hard unless you got boosted)
also yes Athene's still first buy on most of the characters that bought it before, the nerf was completely misguided, and while yes the item is nerfed, it is still the most well rounded item for AP by a long shot.
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I mean that's just my opinion.
situations it was good and bad remain the same it still gives CDR + MR + More mana than almost any other item AND AP on top of that. and it's components have immediate impact as opposed to seraphs
like when I think "why was I buying this item pre nerf?" this version still fits all of that criteria
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On July 01 2014 23:54 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2014 23:51 JimmiC wrote:When you play some games that flaw gets fixed because you start to gain 30-40 points when you win, skip divisions, lose 10 when you lose. And the opposite if you're too high, it doesn't take many games to sort its self out. But for the 1-20 games who cares? You get to move up like a pimp. If you are to high I could see it sucking, but few people complain about that  Right, eventually the visible league gets corrected to where you should have been a few dozen games ago as known by the hidden MMR. if you continue to 'improve' at that same rate, the system will always lag behind you some until you hit the top. the whole time the system tells you that you are worse than you truly are. its an inaccurate system. i desire a more accurate one. a more clear one. where how the system judges you isn't hidden behind fake "advancement" games and arbitary league divisions.
Why do you care so much about having Elo back when the current system is fine? It's not like there are that many problems with the promo games/leagues/tiers system. Sure, you can fail a promo. THAT'S THE POINT. It doesn't matter if you can hit a bullseye every time in darts if you can't hit it at all when you play an important match. And it's not like the system is like YOU FAILED, LOSE TONS OF MMR, but more like "you didn't pass, but your ranking is really high and if you pass next time we'll double promote you."
It sounds like you think you're better than you are and you're blaming it on the system rather than just improving. The system works well enough. Sure you might be silver IV instead of silver II but whatever. You're still silver. Or bronze or gold or plat or diamond or whatever. The only tiers where there's a really big difference in skill between players are bronze and diamond (as in bronze 5 is diff than bronze 1 and diamond 5 is diff than diamond 1). All of the rest are pretty much the same skill, and I would even lump silver and gold into one tier, except silver players are a little worse on basic knowledge and gold players are a little worse because they have ego problems.
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On July 02 2014 02:45 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2014 01:06 Numy wrote:On July 02 2014 00:14 TheYango wrote:
Most of the time the league system simply isn't giving you less meaningful information than fully visible MMR because any of the extra information you're seeing is just noise. I do think the promotion games cause more issues than they solve. Just having people get promoted like in SC2 may be better(If SC2 still does this, haven't played latest expansion) That's probably true. The promotion series originally was implemented because you couldn't get demoted out of tiers, so the system had to be absolutely sure you deserved to advance. Since you CAN get demoted out of tiers now, that level of certainty isn't necessary anymore.
SC 2 promotion has a high level of certainty too iirc. Doesn't it push you up once your mmr places you over 90% CI for the top of the last rank?
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Doesn't it also match you up with people in your bracket?
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On July 02 2014 04:55 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
Why do you care so much about having Elo back when the current system is fine? It's not like there are that many problems with the promo games/leagues/tiers system. Sure, you can fail a promo. THAT'S THE POINT. It doesn't matter if you can hit a bullseye every time in darts if you can't hit it at all when you play an important match. And it's not like the system is like YOU FAILED, LOSE TONS OF MMR, but more like "you didn't pass, but your ranking is really high and if you pass next time we'll double promote you."
It sounds like you think you're better than you are and you're blaming it on the system rather than just improving. The system works well enough. Sure you might be silver IV instead of silver II but whatever. You're still silver. Or bronze or gold or plat or diamond or whatever. The only tiers where there's a really big difference in skill between players are bronze and diamond (as in bronze 5 is diff than bronze 1 and diamond 5 is diff than diamond 1). All of the rest are pretty much the same skill, and I would even lump silver and gold into one tier, except silver players are a little worse on basic knowledge and gold players are a little worse because they have ego problems.
I don't like a system designed to help players track their improvement (ranked play in general) work against itself by protecting players who only casually would use ranked mode or misuse it because they are ignorant. i'd prefer a system that let those interested in it do all they can do help themselves, and those who don't know how to learn to use it or ignore it.
I mean i know you dislike me, but trying to make everything about me and how you can call me bad or insult me seems pretty petty. i don't care what i'm ranked, because its all window dressing and irrelevant to me. plat 1 doesn't mean a damn thing to me. even if it might mean something to others, it doesn't to me, and therefore its useless, so i don't play ranked anymore, because its meaningless. its not about that i think i'm better than i am shown to be or some bullshit. its that i can't possibly KNOW if thats true or not, because the system prevents me from knowing actually how good i am with these dumb categories. a plat 1 player could play vs diamond players or he could play vs low plat and gold players. it doesn't really show a damn thing. thats too broad of a range to be useful.
If you are going to have a ranked system you should strive to have the most accurate one possible. and this is not it.
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Actually it is pretty easy to know.You just look at your gains/losses in lp and compare it to the other players in the game.You have to use the op.gg site though.Don't really know what you expect plat 1 to mean  .System is meh but to stop playing because of it seems pretty weird.I thought most people played ranked so at least some people tryhard.Shiny icons don't really mean anything really.
The game is just too random for there to be more stats than just wins/losses that matter.
You can also just look at the mmr calculator in op.gg but it works only if you play soloq.It is pretty accurate.
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On July 02 2014 05:46 nafta wrote:Actually it is pretty easy to know.You just look at your gains/losses in lp and compare it to the other players in the game.You have to use the op.gg site though.Don't really know what you expect plat 1 to mean .System is meh but to stop playing because of it seems pretty weird.I thought most people played ranked so at least some people tryhard.Shiny icons don't really mean anything really. The game is just too random for there to be more stats than just wins/losses that matter.
If shiny icons mean nothing and i can play support however i want in normals, why should i play ranked? it doesn't help me track my skill all that much better than just playing normals and noticing how well or how poorly i did and where i failed and where i succeeded. if there is nothing extra outside of myself to gain from ranked, why play it. i don't really give a crap what others think of me, as should be obvious by my posts and the types of champions i play in every role.
i'm not even too good at using all the info i get from transparency, but i know i'd rather have it to learn to do so than not have it and be able to improve the same way in normals.
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On July 02 2014 05:50 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2014 05:46 nafta wrote:Actually it is pretty easy to know.You just look at your gains/losses in lp and compare it to the other players in the game.You have to use the op.gg site though.Don't really know what you expect plat 1 to mean .System is meh but to stop playing because of it seems pretty weird.I thought most people played ranked so at least some people tryhard.Shiny icons don't really mean anything really. The game is just too random for there to be more stats than just wins/losses that matter. If shiny icons mean nothing and i can play support however i want in normals, why should i play ranked? it doesn't help me track my skill all that much better than just playing normals and noticing how well or how poorly i did and where i failed and where i succeeded. if there is nothing extra outside of myself to gain from ranked, why play it. i don't really give a crap what others think of me, as should be obvious by my posts and the types of champions i play in every role. i'm not even too good at using all the info i get from transparency, but i know i'd rather have it to learn to do so than not have it and be able to improve the same way in normals.
Well as I said in ranked at least some people tryhard.Realistically if you want to improve going against people who are actually trying to win would be more productive.
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On July 02 2014 05:59 nafta wrote:
Well as I said in ranked at least some people tryhard.Realistically if you want to improve going against people who are actually trying to win would be more productive.
there are actually plenty of people who tryhard in normals too. More people play normals than play ranked, so to say the majority of the player base never tries when they play seems silly. But a lot of support play is internal, a good portion of of it is identifying openings, which even if people don't tryhard, noticing them in disparate situations isn't particularly bad, and arguably helpful to growth. the external stuff besides that, involves chemistry or building chemistry with your lanemate and team. thats not gonna happen in solo queue any more than normals at all.
I'd much rather be playing ranked 5's than normals or solo queue, but i don't have that opportunity so i do the next best thing to me.
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if you get your normal mmr above the threshhold of "I only play this mode when ranked is down" most people do tryhard.
that is my experence as a 90% normal player
except when they get dumpstered, then they were "trolling" despite picking meta appropriate op champions lol
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EPT
