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On October 30 2013 12:45 TheLink wrote:
Yeah the Sivir changes work out to be a massive nerf overall. Pretty funny how incompetently that was handled but Riot'll prob fix it up a bit next patch, "Sivir should attack slowly, lets obliterate her natural attack speed" is the same retarded logic as "Ezreal W does game-breaking levels of damage, lets buff his Q to emphasise that without lowering the W in exchange".
The Sivir change is NOT a nerf.
Let me break this down for you guys.
Boomerang Blade: Identical.
Spell Shield: Straight buffed. Hard to argue.
Ult:
- Removed cast time. Buff.
- Movespeed bonus upped from 20% to 60%. Pretty big buff.
- Attackspeed bonus for allies removed. Is this a big deal? Does your team care about attackspeed all that much? Some teams may care about this, but probably not as much as they care about the huge movespeed boost.
Pretty much a buff to her ult.
Ricochet:
I feel like this is where people might be having some issues, so let's break this down for people.
It's still an autoattack reset, albeit on a 5 second cooldown instead of a 3 second cooldown.
How has the damage changed? Before it did 80 extra damage and 20% less damage per target struck. Now it just does 100% damage to the main target and then 70% to everything else.
So our late game Sivir has, lets say, 300 AD. In order for one attack of the new Ricochet to do more damage than the old, it has to bounce to at least 4 targets. That's a lot, admittedly.
However, you're now getting way more ricochets than you were getting before, because it's 3 ricochets per spellcast. How does this work out?
New Sivir has 1.79 attackspeed with Ricochet active and an end game build. Old Sivir got 1 Ricochet every 3 seconds, or 0.33 per second. New Sivir gets 3 Ricochets every 6.1 seconds (5 sec cooldown + 1.1 seconds needed to throw the other two Ricochets), or 0.5 Ricochets per second about. This means you're getting, on average, 33% more Ricochets.
Now the math works out that in order for one attack of the new Ricochet to do more damage than the old, each has to bounce to at least 2 targets. In a teamfight that's probably realistic.
Lower levels of Ricochet are also significantly better now. At level 1 Ricochet you were likely only going to get one of them in a fight because 9 seconds is about how long the fight lasts. Now you get 3. Even at the reduced secondary target damage that's way better.
All in all this works out to be a damage buff.
So, Sivir's spellshield was buffed, Ricochet was buffed, her ult was buffed.
Now I know you're going to say that her attackspeed per level was decreased, but she's also now getting passive attackspeed with her Ricochet starting at level 6. This means that, in general, her attackspeed when she's not ulting will be higher than it was before, both in short engagements and over time.
The only real nerf is that her attackspeed will be lower than it was before during her ult duration. Unless you guys are really saying that this one thing outstrips all of the above changes, you can't call this an overall nerf.
I see it as a pretty significant buff overall, although I don't think it will make her a top tier pick. I don't think Riot wants her to be a top tier pick. I think they want her to be an unconventional pick for split pushing strats.
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On October 30 2013 13:05 TheLink wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2013 12:43 cLutZ wrote:
If thats how you feel, you should advocate for 0 Mana ults. Because, after all, that is what every energy champion has now.
You need to remember our goal is "create a fun, competitive and profitable game". Our goal is NOT "how can we make mana a more significant drawback". If the best choice is to remove mana then by all means do so. Basically it comes down to accidently going from 300 mana to 200 without noticing and not being able to ult sucks. Going from 100 to 0 accidently and not being able to ult doesn't suck because you should have noticed that you only had 1 spell left and you are being punished for mismanaging things that severely.
That is a theory. Mine would be that players are mad because they are like "that kennen has been throwing shurikens since lvl 1, and I've thrown out like 1/5 that many spells, but when he dinged 6 he could ult right away and I died because I couldn't."
Its all caused, at the root, by trying to have manaless + mana champs in the same game, filling the same role.
If, like, Riot was all like "Toplane is the lane of the manaless" and somehow made bruisers that use mana strong for midlane, that would be a better option than what we have now.
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United States47024 Posts
On October 30 2013 12:15 TheLink wrote:
I feel like everyone should be forced to read Mark Rosewaters articles on game design before they're allowed to bitch about it. Ketara said it right earlier really high ult mana costs just create stupid feel-bad moments at level 6. I think a world in which spamming spells runs you low so you only have 1 spell left is much better than a world in which spamming spells suddenly leaves you without your ult when you really need it.
Except that's not an argument against this change because virtually all the changed mana costs hit the 2nd and 3rd rank mana costs. The rank 1 changes are either nonexistent or very small for most champs.
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Oh no, now I have a war on 2 fronts.  Whelp, once more into the breach!
On the Western Sivir front@ LoLwiki is currently fucking with me but I'm under the understanding she has lost a huge amount of attack speed from her ult. They didn't just take it off her allies, they took it off her as well and gave her a much smaller buff and only while ricocheting. I am under the impression that both her ult and her natural attack speed got gutted and that your maths on W doesn't come remotely close to compensating for that. I may be wrong.
On the Eastern mana front@ I feel as though you are now arguing balance which is a different argument. Manaless champions are not currently OP in this game as I think is evidenced in results. Arguing that playing mana vs manaless is unfun has some merit but I feel your Kennen argument is more built on "poke is unfun" rather than "manaless is unfun". I will accept that "manaless poke" is a bitch but very few champions can do that effectively. Kennen is close to the only one. Zed too I guess but Zed is hideous in basically every way. Shen and Akali don't poke you that hard.
You may now compare me to Hitler.
EDIT: I suppose that is true Yango, but the same argument still extends into late game.
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On October 30 2013 13:34 TheLink wrote:Oh no, now I have a war on 2 fronts. Whelp, once more into the breach! On the Western Sivir front@ LoLwiki is currently fucking with me but I'm under the understanding she has lost a huge amount of attack speed from her ult. They didn't just take it off her allies, they took it off her as well and gave her a much smaller buff and only while ricocheting. I am under the impression that both her ult and her natural attack speed got gutted and that your maths on W doesn't come remotely close to compensating for that. I may be wrong. On the Eastern mana front@ I feel as though you are now arguing balance which is a different argument. Manaless champions are not currently OP in this game as I think is evidenced in results. Arguing that playing mana vs manaless is unfun has some merit but I feel your Kennen argument is more built on "poke is unfun" rather than "manaless is unfun". I will accept that "manaless poke" is a bitch but very few champions can do that effectively. Kennen is close to the only one. Zed too I guess but Zed is hideous in basically every way. Shen and Akali don't poke you that hard. You may now compare me to Hitler. EDIT: I suppose that is true Yango, but the same argument still extends into late game.
Why did you gas all the jews?
@Ketara I feel you're downplaying Sivir's nerfs. The loss of aspd on every auto sucks and so does loss of aspd on allies when her ult is up.
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i feel like taking off the ability for missiles to be affected by cdr in between shots is overkill. kind of kills ap corki completely which was a niche thing already
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God I wish Akali's early game was buffed a tad bit. shit fuckin sucks rn
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On October 30 2013 13:40 wussleeQ wrote:
i feel like taking off the ability for missiles to be affected by cdr in between shots is overkill. kind of kills ap corki completely which was a niche thing already
that's what you get for trying to have fun and play a champion in a way that riot didn't explicitly intend for him to be played.
im sure annie and fiddle support are next on the chopping block, they just haven't figured out a way to make them bad supports without dropping them to urgot levels of rarity since hardly anyone plays them mid/jungle as it is.
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Energy based is still fine IMO so long as they are well balanced around it.
Cooldown based (semi)-resourceless though, is really pushing it. CD based champs should be PUNISHED for using their skills without thought, because their cooldowns should be meaningful and punishable. Take garen. Very powerful while his cooldowns are up, but if he uses them and doesn't get mileage out of them, he's a ton weaker, and has a wide window of vulnerability.
Worst offender - Rengar by a mile. He gets rewarded for using his skills on CD by getting another, stronger cast of the same skill.
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On October 30 2013 13:34 TheLink wrote:Oh no, now I have a war on 2 fronts. Whelp, once more into the breach! On the Western Sivir front@ LoLwiki is currently fucking with me but I'm under the understanding she has lost a huge amount of attack speed from her ult. They didn't just take it off her allies, they took it off her as well and gave her a much smaller buff and only while ricocheting. I am under the impression that both her ult and her natural attack speed got gutted and that your maths on W doesn't come remotely close to compensating for that. I may be wrong. On the Eastern mana front@ I feel as though you are now arguing balance which is a different argument. Manaless champions are not currently OP in this game as I think is evidenced in results. Arguing that playing mana vs manaless is unfun has some merit but I feel your Kennen argument is more built on "poke is unfun" rather than "manaless is unfun". I will accept that "manaless poke" is a bitch but very few champions can do that effectively. Kennen is close to the only one. Zed too I guess but Zed is hideous in basically every way. Shen and Akali don't poke you that hard. You may now compare me to Hitler. EDIT: I suppose that is true Yango, but the same argument still extends into late game.
No you're right re: Sivir.
Her damage was reduced during her ult active, but increased the rest of the time. If you look at it from the standpoint of a split pushing centric champion, that's an improvement.
Her damage has also been (critically imo) increased early game, which helps her poor laning. Not as much as range would, but it helps.
And again, I'm not saying that I think Sivir is amazing now or anything like that. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if she gets buffed again. All I'm saying is that these changes in general make her stronger, not weaker. She's still going to be going from weak to relatively weak, or at least that's my guess. We'll have to see!
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On October 30 2013 13:34 TheLink wrote:Oh no, now I have a war on 2 fronts. Whelp, once more into the breach! On the Western Sivir front@ LoLwiki is currently fucking with me but I'm under the understanding she has lost a huge amount of attack speed from her ult. They didn't just take it off her allies, they took it off her as well and gave her a much smaller buff and only while ricocheting. I am under the impression that both her ult and her natural attack speed got gutted and that your maths on W doesn't come remotely close to compensating for that. I may be wrong. On the Eastern mana front@ I feel as though you are now arguing balance which is a different argument. Manaless champions are not currently OP in this game as I think is evidenced in results. Arguing that playing mana vs manaless is unfun has some merit but I feel your Kennen argument is more built on "poke is unfun" rather than "manaless is unfun". I will accept that "manaless poke" is a bitch but very few champions can do that effectively. Kennen is close to the only one. Zed too I guess but Zed is hideous in basically every way. Shen and Akali don't poke you that hard. You may now compare me to Hitler. EDIT: I suppose that is true Yango, but the same argument still extends into late game.
Except its not just free poke that is unfun. Its free waveclear, free sustain, and free shields. I may have forgot about other things, but I cannot understand how you think manaless champs are well balanced in this game. Being OP is not the only way to be unbalanced. The problem I see is manaless champs should have a Garen-like power curve, but in reality, they usually have Shen/Rumble/Renekton power curves.
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On October 30 2013 14:09 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2013 13:34 TheLink wrote:Oh no, now I have a war on 2 fronts. Whelp, once more into the breach! On the Western Sivir front@ LoLwiki is currently fucking with me but I'm under the understanding she has lost a huge amount of attack speed from her ult. They didn't just take it off her allies, they took it off her as well and gave her a much smaller buff and only while ricocheting. I am under the impression that both her ult and her natural attack speed got gutted and that your maths on W doesn't come remotely close to compensating for that. I may be wrong. On the Eastern mana front@ I feel as though you are now arguing balance which is a different argument. Manaless champions are not currently OP in this game as I think is evidenced in results. Arguing that playing mana vs manaless is unfun has some merit but I feel your Kennen argument is more built on "poke is unfun" rather than "manaless is unfun". I will accept that "manaless poke" is a bitch but very few champions can do that effectively. Kennen is close to the only one. Zed too I guess but Zed is hideous in basically every way. Shen and Akali don't poke you that hard. You may now compare me to Hitler. EDIT: I suppose that is true Yango, but the same argument still extends into late game. Except its not just free poke that is unfun. Its free waveclear, free sustain, and free shields. I may have forgot about other things, but I cannot understand how you think manaless champs are well balanced in this game. Being OP is not the only way to be unbalanced. The problem I see is manaless champs should have a Garen-like power curve, but in reality, they usually have Shen/Rumble/Renekton power curves.
wat
the 3 example champions have powercurves that are nothing alike, and neither Shen nor Rumble's strength is his resource budgeting.
Also those 2 champions have definite short-term choices to make when trading, especially since Rumble's changes that make Danger Zone more important. Shen's energy costs actually make it impossible for him to cast all 3 non-ult spells at the same time.
Renekton is pretty uniformly strong in all toplane matchups (seriously, you have 100% freedom to first pick Renekton both for laning and teamcomp purposes) and is probably overdue for a nerf. You can have that one.
Edit: Honestly if they gave Renek the Rumble treatment and made him have to build fury to have spells worth a damn it would be for the better. Right now it's like, "oh I'm casting an already strong spell AND I GET AN ADDED BONUS YES PLS"
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So nunu uneffected by the AS changes (awesome). The rest of these changes make no sense. Here people thought adc was going to come back, but we've got these fucking terror murder mids with high mobility going and fucking all the lanes.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
it's pretty clear that riot wants to make lol closer to a fighting game than 'classic' dota. if they wanted to make this a harsh power curve game they could, but i'm not sure it's for the better. 4 protect 1 hard carry is so played out i get tired just thinking about it.
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On October 30 2013 14:27 oneofthem wrote:
it's pretty clear that riot wants to make lol closer to a fighting game than 'classic' dota. if they wanted to make this a harsh power curve game they could, but i'm not sure it's for the better. 4 protect 1 hard carry is so played out i get tired just thinking about it.
I'm just going to guess tanky stuff is going to rule s4 from all the changes so far.
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On October 30 2013 13:17 Ketara wrote:-
That's a cool way to calculate and all, but you're too hung up on Ricochet and the AoE. Single-target damage is by far the most important asset of Ranged DPS. Ricochets will deal some AoE damage but it's really not that significant when you compare it to champions that are actually good at AoE like the AP Carry and what have you. Then we have something like Graves and Corki who completely shit on your AoE so concentrating on that is a lost cause to begin with.
The old Ricochet with the auto reset was high burst damage on a single target. Currently, all you have apart from the boomerang blade is a 3 attack mediocre aspd steroid with greatly reduced base attack speed. This basically means that over time, your dps will perhaps be slightly, if any, better than a normal ADCs without a steroid. For single target DPS, this is a nerf. For AoE DPS, I'd much rather have Burst(Graves, Corki) than slowly picking at them for half a minute to deal significant damage. For autoattacking AoE, Jinx is able to crit and has like 300 more range.
I see no reason to pick Sivir.
By the way, saying that the spell shield change is solely a buff is incorrect. If you only activate it when you're getting hit by a spell, it's better at lvl 1 if you have more than 75 mana. Considering that it's the last skill you level up, this is significant.
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So Freeze, Kev1n, and Hyrqbot all just signed with NiP, meaning they're not the person from NiP moving to an LA team. In addition, Deficio says it's not him, so it's either Bjergsen or a sub. A sub wouldn't be a big deal, so it's almost assuredly Bjergsen. Moving to TSM is just speculation, I don't know how many teams are in LA, but he has a past with them (subbed for some tournament in NY, probably IEM) and hangs out with them.
God I hope that's a thing though. I wonder, is he the shotcaller for NiP? If not, who will take that mantle, hypothetically speaking in terms of TSM Bjergsen
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On October 30 2013 14:17 upperbound wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2013 14:09 cLutZ wrote:On October 30 2013 13:34 TheLink wrote:Oh no, now I have a war on 2 fronts. Whelp, once more into the breach! On the Western Sivir front@ LoLwiki is currently fucking with me but I'm under the understanding she has lost a huge amount of attack speed from her ult. They didn't just take it off her allies, they took it off her as well and gave her a much smaller buff and only while ricocheting. I am under the impression that both her ult and her natural attack speed got gutted and that your maths on W doesn't come remotely close to compensating for that. I may be wrong. On the Eastern mana front@ I feel as though you are now arguing balance which is a different argument. Manaless champions are not currently OP in this game as I think is evidenced in results. Arguing that playing mana vs manaless is unfun has some merit but I feel your Kennen argument is more built on "poke is unfun" rather than "manaless is unfun". I will accept that "manaless poke" is a bitch but very few champions can do that effectively. Kennen is close to the only one. Zed too I guess but Zed is hideous in basically every way. Shen and Akali don't poke you that hard. You may now compare me to Hitler. EDIT: I suppose that is true Yango, but the same argument still extends into late game. Except its not just free poke that is unfun. Its free waveclear, free sustain, and free shields. I may have forgot about other things, but I cannot understand how you think manaless champs are well balanced in this game. Being OP is not the only way to be unbalanced. The problem I see is manaless champs should have a Garen-like power curve, but in reality, they usually have Shen/Rumble/Renekton power curves. wat the 3 example champions have powercurves that are nothing alike, and neither Shen nor Rumble's strength is his resource budgeting. Also those 2 champions have definite short-term choices to make when trading, especially since Rumble's changes that make Danger Zone more important. Shen's energy costs actually make it impossible for him to cast all 3 non-ult spells at the same time. Renekton is pretty uniformly strong in all toplane matchups (seriously, you have 100% freedom to first pick Renekton both for laning and teamcomp purposes) and is probably overdue for a nerf. You can have that one. Edit: Honestly if they gave Renek the Rumble treatment and made him have to build fury to have spells worth a damn it would be for the better. Right now it's like, "oh I'm casting an already strong spell AND I GET AN ADDED BONUS YES PLS"
Shen and Rumble definitely have strength in resource budgeting. Shen gets to spam vorpal blade to lasthit, or use it to sustain (or both) shen can use his shield almost infinitely if he is trying to lasthit under tower against a ranged champ (or 2v1 in pro play). Yes, it bites him in the ass if he is spamming those skills and wants to taunt for a gank. But guess what, even if he had Darius's mana costs, the amount he spams would make Shen OOM by lvl 3 anyways. A properly made Shen would lose every duel at all levels (if he remains manaless).
Same with Rumble, except Rumble has been nerfed a LOT. This has made his powerlevel (without ult) actually pretty freaking weak, and turned Rumble into the Ult-Bot he is now. Old Rumble was much less binary, and totally OP because he spammed in lane. Now Rumble is picked because of his ult, but dont discount the ability to never stop using skills. He is 1 of 3 Melle AP champs strong in toplane. And 2 of 3 are manaless.
The problem, that you aren't really recognizing, is not that Manaless=OP, its that manaless = the ability to do something that shouldnt be allowed (without a blue buff) in this game. Lee Sin, Aatrox, and Elise lose almost nothing by donating blue to mid, etc.
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Is the patch actually out now or did they just release the notes?
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On October 30 2013 15:03 BlasiuS wrote:
Is the patch actually out now or did they just release the notes?
servers are going down in a few hours, when they come back up the patch will be live.
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EPT
