EPT[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish - Page 61
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AlterKot
Poland7525 Posts
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loSleb
Austria1389 Posts
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AlterKot
Poland7525 Posts
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Sakray
France2198 Posts
On January 30 2014 23:20 Cuddle wrote: I'm not looking to become the next Froggen here There's a new champion at CS'ing. With an extra lvl of challenge. + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/723494grag.jpg) | ||
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killerdog
Denmark6522 Posts
On January 30 2014 23:24 AlterKot wrote: Imp said in an interview that non-pro players should aim for 75 cs by 10:00 and 150 by 20:00 as an ADC and that's what I stand behind  But I don't think you should count cs while ingame, it's better to practice it in custom games with no enemies (even pros do that!)I disagree that you shouldn't keep track of your cs in game. I play a lot of caitlyn/lucian which means pretty often we're either pinning them under tower or zoning them off the wave entirely, so there's no reason for me to miss cs at all (other then me being terribad.) Sometimes I'll be getting 80-90cs by ~10 minutes, and sometimes I'll be all the way down by 50-60 just because I'm missing a lot of cs. I find that checking my cs every now and them can help me be more aware of whether I'm screwing up my last hitting or not. Like If I check at 8 minutes and only have 40cs in a quiet lane, then I'll take a deep breath, and shift my focus onto making sure I'm not shooting creeps too early, and can get out of the last hitting tilt i was in, whereas if I don't have this conscious realisation that I need to focus, I'll just keep missing half of every wave. It's also really useful to know how much cs you have compared to your opponent, because that lets you know if what you're doing is working or not. Say have lane control and are ahead in items, if you've been shoving them under tower for the last 4 minutes but they're still even with you in cs, then thats obviously not working and maybe you should back off, try and freeze it away from their tower and force a fight. Conversely if you are 20-30cs ahead at the 6-7 minute mark, then feel free to keep shoving them under tower to snowball your lead. Also a tip for last hitting which I find really useful. If there's a cannon minion shooting the minion you want to last hit, then waiting til it's low (right around the area where i can barely finish it) then timing my shot to hit right after the cannon minion's next shot almost always gets cs. I guess it's because the cannon minion does less damage then I do, and if the cannon minion shoots it right around the border of where i can kill it, then a shot right after will definitely get it, but regardless of why it works, I find it helps me not miss those creeps where half your wave is shooting one guy. | ||
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AlterKot
Poland7525 Posts
What you describe in last paragraph sounds really smart, but I personally adapt myself to the situation and focus on zoning/pushing depending on how the wave forms, what do I know about jungler position etc. instead of forcing it. Perhaps I'm wrong about this, but it really seems to me like it all isn't universal and depends on what every player is accustomed too, his habits etc. | ||
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killerdog
Denmark6522 Posts
On January 31 2014 09:13 AlterKot wrote: On the contrary, checking cs only makes me nervous (or relaxed if I'm winning) about my lasthitting, and I think it should be a mindless process. Like, I should always try to get as much cs as possible, not only when I'm losing, so knowing how far behind/ahead I am doesn't really change anything. I usually compare cs once or twice the game, to check who won the lane and give myself the pat on the back or sour taste depending on the outcome. I think xPeke also said that he doesn't worry about his cs because it changes nothing (worrying, not cs :p) and the only thing he can accomplish by doing that is lower his spirit or get frustrated. I suppose I should note that I don't really get emotionally invested in the cs, maybe a "oh i'm awesome" or an "oh i suck lol," but thats all. I just sometimes tunnel vision on one aspect of the lane, maybe harassing or zoning, to the detriment of actually getting last hits, and I'd rather notice this sooner so I can properly re-balance my priorities, then find out by that vayne who I've been harassing to hell all game suddenly having a botrk when I'm still on just a bf sword, purely because I was tunnel visioning on her too hard while she was last hitting. Maybe everyone else just last hits at a constant accuracy %, but I find sometimes I'm last hitting well and sometimes I'm last hitting badly, and realizing I'm having a bad game is the key to being able to mentally "reset" and focus a bit more on it to get back into the rhythm, rather then just spiraling down into adc poverty  On January 31 2014 09:13 AlterKot wrote: What you describe in last paragraph sounds really smart, but I personally adapt myself to the situation and focus on zoning/pushing depending on how the wave forms, what do I know about jungler position etc. instead of forcing it. Perhaps I'm wrong about this, but it really seems to me like it all isn't universal and depends on what every player is accustomed too, his habits etc. Not quite sure what you're saying so I might have misunderstood you, but you always have a choice of how to control the lane if you get a lead in bot. You can try let the lane naturally freeze in middle and zone them off xp, you can try and bait them into pushing it slightly, then go for a freeze infront of your own tower, you can just burst every wave down as soon as it arrives to have constant pressure on their tower (and then you can choose to either try and poke them while they're last hitting under tower, or try and shoot their tower down as fast as possible) or you can slowly push the lane, timing it to it crashes into their tower with a double/triple wave (and hopefully a cannon minion or two) and try and take serious chunks out of their tower health. You have plenty of choices to make conscious decisions about how you want to manipulate the lane. I generally make decisions on how to treat the lane based on the matchup, and how far ahead we are. If they have no sustain (annie supp fx) then poking them under tower is really good, if they have a sona or something, and I have a leona/blitz then freezing the wave is really good to force hard engages, if I have a ranged support (or if my other lanes are getting dumpstered) then poking down tower fast can be really effective. Unless their jungler is lee sin/elise/vi (or they have a thresh) you can generally shove the wave to their tower really safely with decent ward coverage, and just walk away if he comes, so their jungler normally doesn't matter that much. If you get ahead in bot it's about what the best play to snowball your lane (and help other lanes) as hard as possible is, and if shoving them under tower is making them lose a lot of cs then go for it, if it's not then you're probably better off trying to freeze/build up the wave and just destroy their tower asap. You shouldn't react to how the minions act, because you can control how they act ^.^ edit: might have gone slightly off topic, but w/e, 1:30am posting best posting :D tldr: I meant to describe how I feel that you shouldn't react to things like creep waves/jungler being bot/stuff because you can decide how the creep wave forms/how hard you push/whether you poke them/their tower, and making a conscious macro decision to focus on doing one thing, (taking tower, zoning them off xp, harassing them under tower) lets you focus all your micro decisions (do i push this wave, shoot tower or their adc, should i focus the adc or support etc) towards a common goal, rather then doing a bit of everything and end up not snowballing an xp lead, not getting much damage on tower, and forcing them to miss very many cs. | ||
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AlterKot
Poland7525 Posts
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Sponkz
Denmark4564 Posts
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The_Unseen
France1923 Posts
That's not to say that you should not practice last hitting, it's just that putting yourself under too much pressure can only hurt your gameplay imo | ||
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killerdog
Denmark6522 Posts
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Sponkz
Denmark4564 Posts
On February 01 2014 06:46 The_Unseen wrote: CS can be really frustrating, like everyone knows their own record pretty much and thinks that's what they should be aiming for every game. I've had a bad series of Kayle game where I was so focused on matching a really good CS I managed to get a few days ago that I didn't pay enough attention to the rest of the game around me. I don't think CS in a vacuum actually exists at our shitty level, so as long as you're doing fine compared to your opponent, that's ok That's not to say that you should not practice last hitting, it's just that putting yourself under too much pressure can only hurt your gameplay imo It's also extremely difficult to set a standard for CS'ing outside of pro matches unless you're playing at a really high level. In solo queue, the average CS on both teams is decided by the amount of aggression, in co-op with the amount of experience you gain (a bigger factor than CS'ing for bot-lane imho) and at lower levels of play, you tend to see a lot more aggression from the junglers and supports, because they are often unsuccessful at their ganks/plays, compared to someone in high plat/diamond who knows how to makes play/when to gank. As a support, I love going aggressive for that level 2/3/6 if i can gib either of the enemies with someone like Leona or Thresh. Sometimes i end up trading First Blood in favor of my ADC, because while i died and the enemy support died, the enemy ADC got forced back, meaning that my ADC will gain a good wave of solo experience, gaining him that little extra gold, which nets him another advantage against his opponent. This also means, that unless we screw up, my ADC will automatically get a larger advantage over time, forcing the other team to set their eyes on us. I do think bot-lane is rather broken at the moment though. Sometimes I've gained a small/medium advantage early-on, but the enemy sends 4 people to deal with me and my Pokemon, and they kill us, take the tower, takes drake. If my team doesn't respond properly, they sometimes even push further, sometimes to inhibitor in one go (been on both sides with this one), simply because we never group up as 5 and get too eager to make that comeback and everyone sort of tilts. | ||
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killerdog
Denmark6522 Posts
On February 01 2014 21:25 Sponkz wrote: I do think bot-lane is rather broken at the moment though. Sometimes I've gained a small/medium advantage early-on, but the enemy sends 4 people to deal with me and my Pokemon, and they kill us, take the tower, takes drake. If my team doesn't respond properly, they sometimes even push further, sometimes to inhibitor in one go (been on both sides with this one), simply because we never group up as 5 and get too eager to make that comeback and everyone sort of tilts. That's actually something I've been noticing a lot recently. Regardless of who gets ahead in the first 6-7 minutes of the lane, it always seems to get decided by which team 3-4 man ganks bot first. I just figured we were pushing too hard, but it's pretty tricky to find the balance between using your advantage to zone/harass them, and overextending. Hell, if they have something like a vi, lee or a thresh it feels like you can't ever go past river without at least having to burn flash to escape just a plain lane gank. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
2: Junglers make a big difference if ganks are successful who fucking knew this is hardly new, devil complained about getting 4 man ganked and bot lane losing like over a year ago but once you can just back away its not a problem | ||
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Sponkz
Denmark4564 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
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killerdog
Denmark6522 Posts
On February 02 2014 00:42 Slayer91 wrote: how Supports all starting dorans means you can only ward one of the 3 routes into lane at once, if nothing else. Not that my map awareness as adc isn't shit-tier | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
after sightstone and especially after level 9 its ward city people mean 4 man ganks after both mid and jungle have ultis | ||
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killerdog
Denmark6522 Posts
On February 02 2014 05:18 Slayer91 wrote: thats early on after sightstone and especially after level 9 its ward city people mean 4 man ganks after both mid and jungle have ultis I was talking mainly about the random parties botlane that keep happening around when people hit level 6. Even if you're winning bot quite hard, you can't really punish them hard after level 4-5 until you've backed once because random lvl 6 solo laner/jungler gank parties keep happening from both side, and even lane ganks tend to be lethal. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
I don't think he was talking about that at all getting ahead pre 6 is like pushing to tower or MAYBE you got lucky with fb post 6 random solo laner gank parties are what wards are for, lane ganks are what anticipating baits are for this is all standard bot lane skills that you should all have like being good at 2v2 is 50% of bot laning | ||
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