|
Next Playday: Monday, July 14th, 8.30 PM CET
In-Game channel: "StillAlive" |
well I didn't play perfect, but like.. There's a few things that I learned from DOTA and HoN which I played on a very high level:
Ganking a lost lane usually won't really help much. The way to deal with it is often to leave it for a while, let the people catch up and you focus on keeping other people down. No one is a 1-man army in those games at least.
Since I played the other games on a pretty high level, I'd like to think I'm not retarded... Winning your lane is not the one and only thing, but I generally do pretty well overall in the games, get off ganks and control the map. But when people repeatedly after being asked not to go back top lane because they just die over and over, I don't know what to do. Same thing goes for when you tell the ADC not to be farming bot lane on their side of the map when all of them are missing, or they don't look at the map and don't see people charging at them with the wards you have... It's more that, hehe
|
The advantage there is to gank is that, assuming a somewhat equal repartition of skill (eg; you trashed their mid about as hard as your top got trashed), if you can come and get a kill, you'll earn the bounty for the opponent (their mid laner won't be worth much anymore after 3 deaths in a row), give space for your top laner to farm (even if he's awful at it he'll at least get some exp) and in that way you not only pull ahead of your lane opponent, but also of their own fed players.
At this level people tend to take ages to group up (unless they decide to hang out in mid lane for no reason) so if you're stronger individually, roaming and making picks can help you a bunch forcing objectives off of that (actually having your team accompany you to take the drake or a tower, especialy when you're an AP mage, is hard tho) and get more global gold to make up for the feeding/lack of farming of your teammates.
Main danger is if even with 3 outer turrets down an a drake your allies are still behind their counterparts in gold, they'll tend to group since no more towers sticking out and you may be weaker in a 5v5.
|
Hmm, turns out I've completely forgotten how to play adc with a bad support/against bad people. You've ruined me prog T.T
|
Yeah fuck you for being a good support Prog wtf
|
nerf good supports, buff bad supports
riot pls
|
Czech Republic11293 Posts
On November 20 2013 22:42 Bumblebee wrote:
well I didn't play perfect, but like.. There's a few things that I learned from DOTA and HoN which I played on a very high level:
Ganking a lost lane usually won't really help much. The way to deal with it is often to leave it for a while, let the people catch up and you focus on keeping other people down. No one is a 1-man army in those games at least.
Since I played the other games on a pretty high level, I'd like to think I'm not retarded... Winning your lane is not the one and only thing, but I generally do pretty well overall in the games, get off ganks and control the map. But when people repeatedly after being asked not to go back top lane because they just die over and over, I don't know what to do. Same thing goes for when you tell the ADC not to be farming bot lane on their side of the map when all of them are missing, or they don't look at the map and don't see people charging at them with the wards you have... It's more that, hehe
YES I absolutely agree
whenever a lane dies to a gank at like 4 minutes I make a mental note not to go there, chances are the enemy jungler will keep pounding and my gank/camping would be counterganked and time wasted, better apply pressure somewhere else and try to push towers faster than the other jungler does.
If people do silly things even after you tell them to do something else instead, then you have done all that you can do. There is no one recipe for success in that situation, you have to reevaluate and decide what is the best use of your time.
|
I completely agree with you guys, as a jungler, you should absolutely never gank a losing lane - even though I don't really understand the logic behind it, it's just empiric at this point, it always fails.
However, I still have the feeling that a fed mid (say 4/0 Leblanc, Lux, Fizz, Zed, whoever really) can absolutely wreck a botlane that's doing ok with a well timed roam, which will in turn allow for a turret/drake, thus putting the losing botlane a bit back in the game. I might be completely wrong, but I saw it work in the past
|
killerdogice has been witness to my awful jungle... ;( Jungle is so easy when you get ahead or you're even, btu when you're behind I have no idea what to do in this game...
|
but to the comments above, I'd like to point out that at least in DOTA and HoN winning your lane is the recipe to success. In LoL it does seem more redundant to continously kill the same player as you don't lose gold when you die, however if it results in a dragon or a tower that wouldn't have gone down otherwise I think it's right call.
|
On November 21 2013 01:53 The_Unseen wrote:
I completely agree with you guys, as a jungler, you should absolutely never gank a losing lane - even though I don't really understand the logic behind it, it's just empiric at this point, it always fails.
However, I still have the feeling that a fed mid (say 4/0 Leblanc, Lux, Fizz, Zed, whoever really) can absolutely wreck a botlane that's doing ok with a well timed roam, which will in turn allow for a turret/drake, thus putting the losing botlane a bit back in the game. I might be completely wrong, but I saw it work in the past
The problem I find is that once someone starts dying, they just tilt. Even if you give them 1-2 kills the chances are they'll just run into lane and die again anyway. If they're, either because they're tilting or cus they're bad, dying repeatedly, there isn't really much you can do to salvage the lane.
But I find that once you get to the early midgame point, where a jungler and a laner can kill a tower in 1-2 creepwaves, then ganking a lane which has died 2-3 times purely with the objective of forcing their guy to back, then taking tower, can get the failing guy out of his lane and let him go farm jungle or you can group or something. Getting them out of lane before the opponent snowballs to the point where he can 1v5, and grouping, can often dilute the small lead he got, and let you catch up.
|
Of course it really depends on how strong the roamer/jungler is. The rule not to gank a losing lane is most appropriate if junglers are even, because then you'd lose the fight in a countergank situation. A fed mid brings you a win even if their jungler is their, so that is fine. If you are a really fed jungler and their jungler is way behind, you can also still gank the losing lane. It's mostly about how a fight would go if their jungler counterganks and usually you lose that with a losing lane.
Also: I'm sorry :/
|
On November 21 2013 01:58 Bumblebee wrote:
but to the comments above, I'd like to point out that at least in DOTA and HoN winning your lane is the recipe to success. In LoL it does seem more redundant to continously kill the same player as you don't lose gold when you die, however if it results in a dragon or a tower that wouldn't have gone down otherwise I think it's right call.
That's what my post hinted at: you win your lane? Don't just make your opponent useless, prevent your other enemies from making your teammates useless. It requires you to be assertive, and your teammates to follow at least a bit, because if your opponent is decent he's going to catch up in farm while you roam around, so you need to make it worth. But "ganking" isn't restricted to the jungler, maybe I should have said roaming instead.
(Didn't you mention you play Ryze? As you may have noticed, he isn't the best roamer because of his weak pushing and mobility sadly, although he isn't that restricted by a long ult cooldown.)
|
On November 21 2013 01:56 Bumblebee wrote:
killerdogice has been witness to my awful jungle... ;( Jungle is so easy when you get ahead or you're even, btu when you're behind I have no idea what to do in this game...
To be honest a lot of your ganks were actually really good. There were a few really good dives against their tops which either worked, or barely failed, which is a lot better then just never trying things. It's just a matter of learning exactly how far you can push it before you should back off. Knowing which lanes to gank when is just something which comes with experience, as you need to know how each of the matchups evolves over time, and when the opportune time to go in is.
Also apologies for failing quite so hard in the second game :p, haven't laned with a bad support in a while (shitty excuse i know >.>) and kept assuming thresh would throw lanterns for me, and then he didn't :<
|
Czech Republic11293 Posts
If you are overall losing the game and you can't push for towers or there aren't any ganking opportunities for you to take, then decide which objectives exactly you are going to give up ahead of time. Let's say something like this.
Their mid is fed, so we will not contest for dragon, once middle lane goes off the map we will give give up bottom tower as well. Keep middle->top path warded to make sure it's not top lane he is diving. Our top lane is fine, we will fight for our blue when it spawns, and since we have more AoE around we will fight for our red buff also.
Obviously depends from game to game, but a thought process might look something like this. Deciding beforehand how and which objectives you will fight for allows you to optimize your farming pattern, which is important, because you will be mostly farming when behind.
|
Alaric, Im well aware that we're talking about midroles too.. I actually like ganking a lot on Ryze in conjuction with your own jungler or counterganking their jungler on botlane because of the root... its so strong
|
Czech Republic11293 Posts
Ryze in particular is not very strong roamer, one of the most important things is being able to move quickly and/or jump over walls. Fizz, Gragas, Ahri probably make the most dangerous roamers.
|
It used to have longer range, even more terror. D:
Ryze's early laning is really harsh now, 600 range is on the low-end for point'n'click, a bunch of them are up to 650 or 675 (Pantheon's another guy limited to 600 and you really feel it in ARAMs when you can never get a Q off in the early game), not even talking about the skillshots... and you don't really have the CDR yet to make "real" combos for beneficial trades.
But yeah, the point'n'click root means that even if it's hard for him to roam, when he finds the room to do it he's strong. It works just as well to set up ganks too (can't miss a skillshot on an emprisonned target).
^ stuff like Lux is annoying too because super low cd and 3k range means she can assist from afar without it costing her much.
Or Lissandra, Annie, etc. for the sheer AoE cc+burst initiation bot lane (need Flash for Annie though).
|
tl;dr : GET GUD SCRUB OMG
|
|
|
I know right  My efforts will pay in the end thou
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
