On April 26 2014 13:05 Lord Tolkien wrote: Honestly, it's the buzzard combos that are what break hunter atm.
Have Buzzard card draw function on friendly beast death, not placement, and woosh, you just brought hunter back into line.
Now they actually need their combos in hand instead of placing down doggies and being able to draw their combo.
My question to you is what are you afraid of them drawing with that many cards? Consistancy in that deck is what makes UTH busted, not Buzzard. Buzzard isn't busted because it draws cards, UTH ENABLES buzzard to be busted because every creature/totem/"Dude" you make effectively puts you and negative card advantage. Even if the way to play around UTH was to only have 1 creautre in play at a time, you have so many incredably powerful removal spells (Kill Command, Deadly Shot, Freezing Trap for the high health creatures, along with Explosive Trap, Multi Shot, and Esong Bow to deal with misc. threats.) that so long as you net atleast + 2 (Buzzard + uth = -2 so 4 creatures or more) that you will win every trade.
UTH Hounds need to not have charge at the barest minimum. At that point we can start talking about it being "acceptable".
I find taking away charge would probably affect it more than giving at 1 extra mana cost, which would probably be a much better solution. Part of what makes UTH so good is that you can combo well and if there are more annoying threats on the field, you can probably take care of them thanks to charge, or at least a few of them. All that for 2 mana. That's pretty strong, and putting the extra mana cost on it can make it harder to pull off some of hunters' comboes due to the usual low costs in rush. It was buffed from 4 mana if I remember correctly, but that's a lot of value for 2. 3 Seems like a nice spot.
If having charge is so crutial to the card maintaining its power than it needs to cost 4. At 3 mana I would still be hesitant in letting it have the Beast Type AND charge. Every other "Token" making spell costs significantly more than the rest of creatures/spells on power.
Just look at Force of Nature, At Epic it costs 6 mana, garentees 3 dudes, that are only 2/2s but die at EoT. Compare that to a turn 4 board for Zoo who likely has 3 dudes, 2 mana for 3 1/1's with charge is 1/3rd the cost with the added effect of if you have a buzzard or young wolf you're drawing cards or killing a board.
While cost disparity is a thing, one is an Epic (the FoN) and the other is Uncommon. Something on UTH has to give, and it can't be JUST the mana cost unless were putting it back to 4 and reverting the change that made hunter useful again.
On April 26 2014 13:05 Lord Tolkien wrote: Honestly, it's the buzzard combos that are what break hunter atm.
Have Buzzard card draw function on friendly beast death, not placement, and woosh, you just brought hunter back into line.
Now they actually need their combos in hand instead of placing down doggies and being able to draw their combo.
My question to you is what are you afraid of them drawing with that many cards? Consistancy in that deck is what makes UTH busted, not Buzzard. Buzzard isn't busted because it draws cards, UTH ENABLES buzzard to be busted because every creature/totem/"Dude" you make effectively puts you and negative card advantage. Even if the way to play around UTH was to only have 1 creautre in play at a time, you have so many incredably powerful removal spells (Kill Command, Deadly Shot, Freezing Trap for the high health creatures, along with Explosive Trap, Multi Shot, and Esong Bow to deal with misc. threats.) that so long as you net atleast + 2 (Buzzard + uth = -2 so 4 creatures or more) that you will win every trade.
UTH Hounds need to not have charge at the barest minimum. At that point we can start talking about it being "acceptable".
I find taking away charge would probably affect it more than giving at 1 extra mana cost, which would probably be a much better solution. Part of what makes UTH so good is that you can combo well and if there are more annoying threats on the field, you can probably take care of them thanks to charge, or at least a few of them. All that for 2 mana. That's pretty strong, and putting the extra mana cost on it can make it harder to pull off some of hunters' comboes due to the usual low costs in rush. It was buffed from 4 mana if I remember correctly, but that's a lot of value for 2. 3 Seems like a nice spot.
If having charge is so crutial to the card maintaining its power than it needs to cost 4. At 3 mana I would still be hesitant in letting it have the Beast Type AND charge. Every other "Token" making spell costs significantly more than the rest of creatures/spells on power.
Just look at Force of Nature, At Epic it costs 6 mana, garentees 3 dudes, that are only 2/2s but die at EoT. Compare that to a turn 4 board for Zoo who likely has 3 dudes, 2 mana for 3 1/1's with charge is 1/3rd the cost with the added effect of if you have a buzzard or young wolf you're drawing cards or killing a board.
While cost disparity is a thing, one is an Epic (the FoN) and the other is Uncommon. Something on UTH has to give, and it can't be JUST the mana cost unless were putting it back to 4 and reverting the change that made hunter useful again.
All the other spells are good on an empty board. UTH isn't.
On April 26 2014 13:05 Lord Tolkien wrote: Honestly, it's the buzzard combos that are what break hunter atm.
Have Buzzard card draw function on friendly beast death, not placement, and woosh, you just brought hunter back into line.
Now they actually need their combos in hand instead of placing down doggies and being able to draw their combo.
My question to you is what are you afraid of them drawing with that many cards? Consistancy in that deck is what makes UTH busted, not Buzzard. Buzzard isn't busted because it draws cards, UTH ENABLES buzzard to be busted because every creature/totem/"Dude" you make effectively puts you and negative card advantage. Even if the way to play around UTH was to only have 1 creautre in play at a time, you have so many incredably powerful removal spells (Kill Command, Deadly Shot, Freezing Trap for the high health creatures, along with Explosive Trap, Multi Shot, and Esong Bow to deal with misc. threats.) that so long as you net atleast + 2 (Buzzard + uth = -2 so 4 creatures or more) that you will win every trade.
UTH Hounds need to not have charge at the barest minimum. At that point we can start talking about it being "acceptable".
I find taking away charge would probably affect it more than giving at 1 extra mana cost, which would probably be a much better solution. Part of what makes UTH so good is that you can combo well and if there are more annoying threats on the field, you can probably take care of them thanks to charge, or at least a few of them. All that for 2 mana. That's pretty strong, and putting the extra mana cost on it can make it harder to pull off some of hunters' comboes due to the usual low costs in rush. It was buffed from 4 mana if I remember correctly, but that's a lot of value for 2. 3 Seems like a nice spot.
If having charge is so crutial to the card maintaining its power than it needs to cost 4. At 3 mana I would still be hesitant in letting it have the Beast Type AND charge. Every other "Token" making spell costs significantly more than the rest of creatures/spells on power.
Just look at Force of Nature, At Epic it costs 6 mana, garentees 3 dudes, that are only 2/2s but die at EoT. Compare that to a turn 4 board for Zoo who likely has 3 dudes, 2 mana for 3 1/1's with charge is 1/3rd the cost with the added effect of if you have a buzzard or young wolf you're drawing cards or killing a board.
While cost disparity is a thing, one is an Epic (the FoN) and the other is Uncommon. Something on UTH has to give, and it can't be JUST the mana cost unless were putting it back to 4 and reverting the change that made hunter useful again.
All the other spells are good on an empty board. UTH isn't.
Which is a fair point, but these other spells also don't punish you for having more than 1 dude on the board. UTH negates all other forms of early aggression by netting more out of your cards than you can yourself. Which leads back to the early argument of why aggressive early game based creature decks cannot compete in the meta where Hunters playing UTH exist. One card at 2 mana completely shutting out an entire archetype across multiple classes because off too many effects off of one card.
The only other comparable spell to UTH in terms of punishing your opponent based on cards is Divine Favor. Which is cards unplayed (see cards unplayed being react-able) vs cards in play which is more punishing because the person on the receiving end has less options to recover from it as they are likely to lose their whole board due to tokens trading in.
To bring those other token generation spells back in, with the creatures in particular none of them have haste. While FoN does have charge, they die at EoT once again making them worse then UTH tokens again. The trade off of being useless when there are no creatures in play is innately not a weakness simply because if your opponent doesn't have creatures in play he isn't doing anything to you so you are winning because your 15 turn clock is still ticking via your Hero Power.
TLDR: Hunter UTH deck has so much love in it from the core set that Greg Street (Ghostcrawler) must have had a hand it, because I've never seen a dev play this much favoritism since Ghostcrawler played a Warrior in WoW.
On April 26 2014 13:05 Lord Tolkien wrote: Honestly, it's the buzzard combos that are what break hunter atm.
Have Buzzard card draw function on friendly beast death, not placement, and woosh, you just brought hunter back into line.
Now they actually need their combos in hand instead of placing down doggies and being able to draw their combo.
My question to you is what are you afraid of them drawing with that many cards? Consistancy in that deck is what makes UTH busted, not Buzzard. Buzzard isn't busted because it draws cards, UTH ENABLES buzzard to be busted because every creature/totem/"Dude" you make effectively puts you and negative card advantage. Even if the way to play around UTH was to only have 1 creautre in play at a time, you have so many incredably powerful removal spells (Kill Command, Deadly Shot, Freezing Trap for the high health creatures, along with Explosive Trap, Multi Shot, and Esong Bow to deal with misc. threats.) that so long as you net atleast + 2 (Buzzard + uth = -2 so 4 creatures or more) that you will win every trade.
UTH Hounds need to not have charge at the barest minimum. At that point we can start talking about it being "acceptable".
I find taking away charge would probably affect it more than giving at 1 extra mana cost, which would probably be a much better solution. Part of what makes UTH so good is that you can combo well and if there are more annoying threats on the field, you can probably take care of them thanks to charge, or at least a few of them. All that for 2 mana. That's pretty strong, and putting the extra mana cost on it can make it harder to pull off some of hunters' comboes due to the usual low costs in rush. It was buffed from 4 mana if I remember correctly, but that's a lot of value for 2. 3 Seems like a nice spot.
If having charge is so crutial to the card maintaining its power than it needs to cost 4. At 3 mana I would still be hesitant in letting it have the Beast Type AND charge. Every other "Token" making spell costs significantly more than the rest of creatures/spells on power.
Just look at Force of Nature, At Epic it costs 6 mana, garentees 3 dudes, that are only 2/2s but die at EoT. Compare that to a turn 4 board for Zoo who likely has 3 dudes, 2 mana for 3 1/1's with charge is 1/3rd the cost with the added effect of if you have a buzzard or young wolf you're drawing cards or killing a board.
While cost disparity is a thing, one is an Epic (the FoN) and the other is Uncommon. Something on UTH has to give, and it can't be JUST the mana cost unless were putting it back to 4 and reverting the change that made hunter useful again.
All the other spells are good on an empty board. UTH isn't.
Which is a fair point, but these other spells also don't punish you for having more than 1 dude on the board. UTH negates all other forms of early aggression by netting more out of your cards than you can yourself. Which leads back to the early argument of why aggressive early game based creature decks cannot compete in the meta where Hunters playing UTH exist. One card at 2 mana completely shutting out an entire archetype across multiple classes because off too many effects off of one card.
The only other comparable spell to UTH in terms of punishing your opponent based on cards is Divine Favor. Which is cards unplayed (see cards unplayed being react-able) vs cards in play which is more punishing because the person on the receiving end has less options to recover from it as they are likely to lose their whole board due to tokens trading in.
To bring those other token generation spells back in, with the creatures in particular none of them have haste. While FoN does have charge, they die at EoT once again making them worse then UTH tokens again. The trade off of being useless when there are no creatures in play is innately not a weakness simply because if your opponent doesn't have creatures in play he isn't doing anything to you so you are winning because your 15 turn clock is still ticking via your Hero Power.
TLDR: Hunter UTH deck has so much love in it from the core set that Greg Street (Ghostcrawler) must have had a hand it, because I've never seen a dev play this much favoritism since Ghostcrawler played a Warrior in WoW.
One line posts to things I put thought into annoy me .
I'm just trying to have a conversation that doesn't stem into complete bullshit, like it does on reddit/liquidhearth. TCG players don't like it when you put facts in front of them.
On April 26 2014 13:05 Lord Tolkien wrote: Honestly, it's the buzzard combos that are what break hunter atm.
Have Buzzard card draw function on friendly beast death, not placement, and woosh, you just brought hunter back into line.
Now they actually need their combos in hand instead of placing down doggies and being able to draw their combo.
My question to you is what are you afraid of them drawing with that many cards? Consistancy in that deck is what makes UTH busted, not Buzzard. Buzzard isn't busted because it draws cards, UTH ENABLES buzzard to be busted because every creature/totem/"Dude" you make effectively puts you and negative card advantage. Even if the way to play around UTH was to only have 1 creautre in play at a time, you have so many incredably powerful removal spells (Kill Command, Deadly Shot, Freezing Trap for the high health creatures, along with Explosive Trap, Multi Shot, and Esong Bow to deal with misc. threats.) that so long as you net atleast + 2 (Buzzard + uth = -2 so 4 creatures or more) that you will win every trade.
UTH Hounds need to not have charge at the barest minimum. At that point we can start talking about it being "acceptable".
Disagree to an extent. While UTH nerfs are welcome and all, the biggest issue with hunter is that buzzard enables them to cycle through their deck at a rapid rate with low cost minions till they get what they want. They can buzzard-UTH and probably draw the cards they need to complete the combo, or put down more cycle cards like stonetusk boar. That's, really, the main problem with hunter right now (and to a much lesser extent warlock, though that's buffered by life cost, and boosted by the dual aggro/control nature of warlock decks): just far too much possible card draw, which allows them to cycle to their damage cards fast, between buzzard-UTH/stonetusks/wolfs/whatever, tracking, and, to a lesser extent, flare.
Swapping buzzard's card draw to on death significantly impairs the ability of the hunter to combo more cards onto the UTH without cards in his hand. If they don't have wolfs in hand, the UTH is significantly less scary. You get 1/1 charge minions, yes, but unless they have the wolf in hand, they can't just draw it and place them down: if they want to draw, they need to run those 1/1 minions dead first.
Not saying that UTH doesn't need a nerf, but the primary problem with hunter is simply that their card cycle/draw engine is far too strong. I'd hit that as the primary problem.
On April 26 2014 16:08 Scip wrote: too bad I fell asleep so I didn't get to play the custom 5v5s t.t The rankeds were still fun tho, let's do another one soon :3
I agree with Tolkien. Hunter card draw machine is so stupid it's not even funny. If someone doesn't play around uth you can be on your last card by turn 8-9. uth isn't the big problem. In the end it's the fact that a hunter can go buzzard, unleash draw 3 and then play 0 mana hunters marks at turn 4 to clear any problem.I think like.. hunters mark should be 1 mana as well because quite frankly it's stupid.
Other card on my stupid list is innervate. It's so silly. I don't know how you'd change it but if you've ever faced a turn 1 coin watcher into turn 2 keeper silence watcher into a yeti you know what I'am talkin bout. Or you know the coin innervate turn 2 druid of the claw super yeti. Good luck dealing with that if your opening isn't flawless.
Also blaming ghostcrawler for shit was the stupidest thing ever and games as a whole are worse off for it because of the assumption that one man controls it all. It's akin to people blaming a president for the weather as far as I am concerned.
On April 26 2014 16:19 GhandiEAGLE wrote: For some reason, every single game night for me ends with me just hating a shit ton on Soniv. Maybe it's his name.
I didn't even know it was possible to hate on Soniv. Dude seems like such a nice guy.
On April 26 2014 16:19 GhandiEAGLE wrote: For some reason, every single game night for me ends with me just hating a shit ton on Soniv. Maybe it's his name.
I didn't even know it was possible to hate on Soniv. Dude seems like such a nice guy.
On April 26 2014 16:23 Parnage wrote: I agree with Tolkien. Hunter card draw machine is so stupid it's not even funny. If someone doesn't play around uth you can be on your last card by turn 8-9. uth isn't the big problem. In the end it's the fact that a hunter can go buzzard, unleash draw 3 and then play 0 mana hunters marks at turn 4 to clear any problem.I think like.. hunters mark should be 1 mana as well because quite frankly it's stupid.
Other card on my stupid list is innervate. It's so silly. I don't know how you'd change it but if you've ever faced a turn 1 coin watcher into turn 2 keeper silence watcher into a yeti you know what I'am talkin bout. Or you know the coin innervate turn 2 druid of the claw super yeti. Good luck dealing with that if your opening isn't flawless.
Also blaming ghostcrawler for shit was the stupidest thing ever and games as a whole are worse off for it because of the assumption that one man controls it all. It's akin to people blaming a president for the weather as far as I am concerned.
Blaming ghostcrawler makes me feel better because then I don't have to accept the fact that there are multiple people running something I enjoy into the ground.
The Hunter's Mark just adds on to hunter's already superior removal suite. While I don't think nerfing/removing/changing buzzard is the way to go, I do think that something to one of the major power points needs to change. While individually none of the things mentioned by previous people are powerful, in combination with each other they create a deck that is so dominant that 7 of 8 players used the deck to get to legend this season whom are playing in the DH tournament going on right now. One of the pieces needs to be removed entirely, and my vote is personally for UTH as it directly counters decks I enjoy playing.
I propose that music artists requesting you put your hands up in the air is a biological adaptation to survive the heat of an enthusiastic crowed similar to a jack rabbit in a desert. The high number of fingers provide a large surface area to volume ratio, a response that favors heat loss to the surrounding air, lowering our body temperature.
imagine if unleash the hounds was as strong as it used to be.
Hunter's should be like the old wow counterparts. Able to use all weapons. Then we can nerf unleash the hounds.
But seriously, I think we all agree hunter is a problem it's just the way to go about it is up for debate. PS: I blame Jayde for the bullshit s5 deathknight and shaman nerfs. He wasn't even a dev just had the ear of one.
On April 26 2014 16:33 ComaDose wrote: I propose that music artists requesting you put your hands up in the air is a biological adaptation to survive the heat of an enthusiastic crowed similar to a jack rabbit in a desert. The high number of fingers provide a large surface area to volume ratio, a response that favors heat loss to the surrounding air, lowering our body temperature.
imagine if unleash the hounds was as strong as it used to be.
I'd prefer old UTH to the New one. IMHO, New UTH is more busted than oldest UTH.
On April 26 2014 16:33 ComaDose wrote: I propose that music artists requesting you put your hands up in the air is a biological adaptation to survive the heat of an enthusiastic crowed similar to a jack rabbit in a desert. The high number of fingers provide a large surface area to volume ratio, a response that favors heat loss to the surrounding air, lowering our body temperature.
imagine if unleash the hounds was as strong as it used to be.
I'd prefer old UTH to the New one. IMHO, New UTH is more busted than oldest UTH.
what about a buzzard then a couple Young Dragonhawk and a pair of Dire Wolf Alpha and a UTH crazy 1 turn kill stuff
EPT
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/754uflq.png?1)
![[image loading]](http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2011/363/3/8/lol_pedo_yi_by_iamryaj014-d4klc82.png)
