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On June 22 2013 14:49 onlywonderboy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2013 14:28 cascades wrote:On June 22 2013 05:23 mr_tolkien wrote:On June 22 2013 05:03 TheYango wrote:On June 22 2013 04:52 Scip wrote:On June 22 2013 04:44 Clinic wrote:
is there a particular reason why a diamond-only or similar forum doesn't exist? The authorities don't want to and there is very little demand from diamond only players too as strategy discussions rarely happen at all. Most of the well-known Diamond posters don't initiate discussions, IMO--they just chime in when someone else says something stupid. Tbh I want to post well thought-out messages very often but I feel like there is no place for it. GD is really nice but things just go too fast and un-noticed. Why would I take 2 hours+ to write an interesting post when nobody will be able to find it again anyways ? It will spark discussion for 2/3 pages at most and then nobody will be able to find it again. See this. See how it is getting buried? Diamond+ forum pls. Or plat+ if u "need ppl to spark discussion". Right after this post people suggested starting a dedicated thread in the Strategy subforum for whatever kind of discussions he wanted to start. GD moves incredibly fast but there are other avenues for discussing narrow topics, ones that don't require excluding people simply based on their rating. If some shitty Bronze player tries to lend their opinion and they are wrong there's nothing stopping anyone from picking apart what is wrong with their logic. And if they still don't see the light, who cares, they are wrong and will probably never improve at LoL. Our community is small as it is, we don't need further segregation.
The opposite is true to. The content of the explanation is far more important than appeal to authority.
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A TROLLS Strategy: Level 1 buff donations
When the new jungle changes came out to change all spawn timers to 1:55, most people were concerned with whether or not the Jungler would still hit level 3 from two buff camps. Can anybody leech EXP? Can bot lane still do golems? Is the jungler affected positively or negatively by this?
However, we have found that this is not the correct question we should be asking. The correct question is "Who are we going to give the other buff to?"
Because junglers are not doing a camp at 1:40, there is effectively one extra jungle camp that they can do in their first clear. While a jungler can go Buff -> Buff and be level 3 at 3 minutes, they can also go Buff -> Wolves -> Wraiths -> Golems for level 3 at about 3:30, depending a little bit on how fast the jungler clears.
This frees up a laner to take the other buff, and go into lane at level 2 with a blue or red buff. The jungler does buff 1 with a single player and smites it, while the other 3 players do buff 2. The junglers smite will be up right around on time for double golems, possibly a little late if they're a fast clearer but then they don't much care anyway. Finally, the 3 people doing buff 2 leave the small lizards for the jungler to clear, so that the buffs do not spawn at the same time and you can secure one after the other later in the game.
Allowing a laner to come into lane at level 2 with blue or red buff creates certain matchups that are extremely one sided. We have tested this in 12 games so far, most as premades vs. other unsuspecting premades in draft normals. In 11 of 12 games the outcome was the buff donated lane absolutely dominating, often times having a 2-3 level lead and doubling or tripling the CS of their opponent. We tended to prefer mid lane for the buff donation, since applying pressure in mid applies the most global pressure, and it is a little easier to coordinate the mid laner taking a buff for either side. However, this strategy is versatile and can be applied to any lane.
So far we've tried the following:
Giving either blue or red to Kayle, to come into lane with Q and E. Both blue and red resulted in the lane won almost immediately.
Giving blue to Cassiopeia. This was probably the most successful, we saw Cassiopeia killing the enemy mid before the second minion wave had spawned.
Giving red to a mid lane Quinn. Also quite effective, it allowed Quinn to get level 6 very quickly while shutting the enemy mid down and then roam.
Giving red to a mid lane Wukong. This actually ended with a fight in the river and Wukong coming out with 4 kills, largely due to being level 2 in a level 1 fight.
Giving red to Caitlyn in both bot and mid lane, to come into lane with Q, E and red buff. This dramatically increased Caitlyn's bullying potential, when we tried it in bot lane she got a doublekill as soon as she came into lane.
Giving red to a Tristana and then lane swapping her to 2v1 the enemy top lane. Also very effective.
For junglers, we focused on champions who did not necessarily need both buffs to get things done. Zac, Karthus, Shen and Shaco were used. In the Shaco games we focused on also doing an early jungle invade, while the others would mostly just farm and play normally. Karthus was possibly the most effective. Karthus can give red to a mid laner, take all the blue buffs, and just go Wolves->Wraiths->Golems->Wolves->Wraiths->Golems until level 6. With this pattern Karthus hits level 6 with the 7 minute blue buff and can then begin to press R.
There are a lot more junglers that we'd like to try with this, as well as a lot more laners with scary level 2's. What we like most about this strategy, aside from the fact that it has been incredibly successful in all but one test game (where we admittedly derped), is that it is incredibly versatile. There are all sorts of champions with scary level 2 kill potential, and all sorts of junglers that do not absolutely have to have both buffs, or absolutely have to gank at 3 minutes. Given the right buff transfer to the right person, you are delaying the jungler 30 seconds, but guaranteeing one of your lanes wins, and wins hard.
We think this is by far the best strategy we've ever come up with in TROLLS, and think you guys should totally try it out for yourselves.
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On June 22 2013 14:55 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2013 14:49 onlywonderboy wrote:On June 22 2013 14:28 cascades wrote:On June 22 2013 05:23 mr_tolkien wrote:On June 22 2013 05:03 TheYango wrote:On June 22 2013 04:52 Scip wrote:On June 22 2013 04:44 Clinic wrote:
is there a particular reason why a diamond-only or similar forum doesn't exist? The authorities don't want to and there is very little demand from diamond only players too as strategy discussions rarely happen at all. Most of the well-known Diamond posters don't initiate discussions, IMO--they just chime in when someone else says something stupid. Tbh I want to post well thought-out messages very often but I feel like there is no place for it. GD is really nice but things just go too fast and un-noticed. Why would I take 2 hours+ to write an interesting post when nobody will be able to find it again anyways ? It will spark discussion for 2/3 pages at most and then nobody will be able to find it again. See this. See how it is getting buried? Diamond+ forum pls. Or plat+ if u "need ppl to spark discussion". Right after this post people suggested starting a dedicated thread in the Strategy subforum for whatever kind of discussions he wanted to start. GD moves incredibly fast but there are other avenues for discussing narrow topics, ones that don't require excluding people simply based on their rating. If some shitty Bronze player tries to lend their opinion and they are wrong there's nothing stopping anyone from picking apart what is wrong with their logic. And if they still don't see the light, who cares, they are wrong and will probably never improve at LoL. Our community is small as it is, we don't need further segregation. The opposite is true to. The content of the explanation is far more important than appeal to authority.
Make it a QnA type of thread, so everyone gets to play! And feel involved and not feel bad for not being Diamond+!
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Kind of a random question but to those who purchased MLG passes online, any idea why they seperate the League of Legends and the Starcraft 2 passes? If I get the LoL one will I still be able to watch SC2?
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On June 22 2013 14:55 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2013 14:49 onlywonderboy wrote:On June 22 2013 14:28 cascades wrote:On June 22 2013 05:23 mr_tolkien wrote:On June 22 2013 05:03 TheYango wrote:On June 22 2013 04:52 Scip wrote:On June 22 2013 04:44 Clinic wrote:
is there a particular reason why a diamond-only or similar forum doesn't exist? The authorities don't want to and there is very little demand from diamond only players too as strategy discussions rarely happen at all. Most of the well-known Diamond posters don't initiate discussions, IMO--they just chime in when someone else says something stupid. Tbh I want to post well thought-out messages very often but I feel like there is no place for it. GD is really nice but things just go too fast and un-noticed. Why would I take 2 hours+ to write an interesting post when nobody will be able to find it again anyways ? It will spark discussion for 2/3 pages at most and then nobody will be able to find it again. See this. See how it is getting buried? Diamond+ forum pls. Or plat+ if u "need ppl to spark discussion". Right after this post people suggested starting a dedicated thread in the Strategy subforum for whatever kind of discussions he wanted to start. GD moves incredibly fast but there are other avenues for discussing narrow topics, ones that don't require excluding people simply based on their rating. If some shitty Bronze player tries to lend their opinion and they are wrong there's nothing stopping anyone from picking apart what is wrong with their logic. And if they still don't see the light, who cares, they are wrong and will probably never improve at LoL. Our community is small as it is, we don't need further segregation. The opposite is true to. The content of the explanation is far more important than appeal to authority.
Doesn't work that way in rl.
"There's nothing stopping anyone...". Besides the thread being shit up by their posts and discussion being derailed as people try to explain basic stuff like pantheon does not have long range.
Content is more important than appeal to authority, but good players were chased away from this forum, cos they sure don't want to explain obvious shit like the pantheon example. What is needed is good questions. Bronze/Silver may come up with good questions, but needs to be filtered first to avoid all the garbage.
(Ideally, Low=>Middle=>High elo. Arrows represent access.)
There's a reason why sc2 forums went to shit. You are assuming just one shitty Bronze/Silver who does it - it's managable. Is it going to be restricted to one? Of course not.
More and you get the official Blizzard/Riot forums.
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We alrdy went over why having a Diamond+ or w/e you wanna call it was a bad idea. It only stands to fragment the community and take away discussion from everyone.
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On June 22 2013 15:01 Ketara wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
A TROLLS Strategy: Level 1 buff donations
When the new jungle changes came out to change all spawn timers to 1:55, most people were concerned with whether or not the Jungler would still hit level 3 from two buff camps. Can anybody leech EXP? Can bot lane still do golems? Is the jungler affected positively or negatively by this?
However, we have found that this is not the correct question we should be asking. The correct question is "Who are we going to give the other buff to?"
Because junglers are not doing a camp at 1:40, there is effectively one extra jungle camp that they can do in their first clear. While a jungler can go Buff -> Buff and be level 3 at 3 minutes, they can also go Buff -> Wolves -> Wraiths -> Golems for level 3 at about 3:30, depending a little bit on how fast the jungler clears.
This frees up a laner to take the other buff, and go into lane at level 2 with a blue or red buff. The jungler does buff 1 with a single players and smites it, while the other 3 players do buff 2. The junglers smite will be up right around on time for double golems, possibly a little late if they're a fast clearer but then they don't much care anyway. This does require a little coordination in champion select in terms of what side are you on and what 3 players are doing which buff, but the outcome is very much worth it. Finally, the 3 people doing the buff leave the small lizards for the jungler to clear, so that the buffs do not spawn at the same time and you can secure one after the other later in the game.
Allowing a laner to come into lane at level 2 with blue or red buff creates certain matchups that are extremely one sided. We have tested this in 12 games so far, most as premades vs. other unsuspecting premades in draft normals. In 11 of 12 games the outcome was the buff donated lane absolutely dominating, often times having a 2-3 level lead and doubling or tripling the CS of their opponent. We tended to prefer mid lane for the buff donation, since applying pressure in mid applies the most global pressure, and it is a little easier to coordinate the mid laner taking a buff for either side. However, this strategy is versatile and can be applied to any lane.
So far we've tried the following:
Giving either blue or red to Kayle, to come into lane with Q and E. Both blue and red resulted in the lane won almost immediately.
Giving blue to Cassiopeia. This was probably the most successful, we saw Cassiopeia killing the enemy mid before the second minion wave had spawned.
Giving red to a mid lane Quinn. Also quite effective, it allowed Quinn to get level 6 very quickly while shutting the enemy mid down and then roam.
Giving red to a mid lane Wukong. This actually ended with a fight in the river and Wukong coming out with 4 kills, largely due to being level 2 in a level 1 fight.
Giving red to Caitlyn in both bot and mid lane, to come into lane with Q, E and red buff. This dramatically increased Caitlyn's bullying potential, when we tried it in bot lane she got a doublekill as soon as she came into lane.
Giving red to a Tristana and then lane swapping her to 2v1 the enemy top lane. Also very effective.
For junglers, we focused on champions who did not necessarily need both buffs to get things done. Zac, Karthus, Shen and Shaco were used. In the Shaco games we focused on also doing an early jungle invade, while the others would mostly just farm and play normally. Karthus was possibly the most effective. Karthus can give red to a mid laner, take all the blue buffs, and just go Wolves->Wraiths->Golems->Wolves->Wraiths->Golems until level 6. With this pattern Karthus hits level 6 with the 7 minute blue buff and can then begin to press R.
There are a lot more junglers that we'd like to try with this, as well as a lot more laners with scary level 2's. What we like most about this strategy, aside from the fact that it has been incredibly successful in all but one test game (where we admittedly derped), is that it is incredibly versatile. There are all sorts of champions with scary level 2 kill potential, and all sorts of junglers that do not absolutely have to have both buffs, or absolutely have to gank at 3 minutes. Given the right buff transfer to the right person, you are delaying the jungler 30 seconds, but guaranteeing one of your lanes wins, and wins hard.
We think this is by far the best strategy we've ever come up with in TROLLS, and think you guys should totally try it out for yourselves.
This is quite a cool idea in compositions that can abuse it. Did you guys ever get invaded while you tried this? How did you react? If the buff that the jungler is at gets invaded I can see it being devastating for him.
EDIT: Added spoiler tags.
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On June 22 2013 15:10 Dusty wrote:
Kind of a random question but to those who purchased MLG passes online, any idea why they seperate the League of Legends and the Starcraft 2 passes? If I get the LoL one will I still be able to watch SC2?
I bought one for Raleigh last year and it didn't matter, they just give u a wrist band at the door. Could be different for anaheim though
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On June 22 2013 15:18 Zooper31 wrote:
We alrdy went over why having a Diamond+ or w/e you wanna call it was a bad idea. It only stands to fragment the community and take away discussion from everyone.
1. You still get to discuss in the normal GD
2. Ideally, you still get to read everything that goes on the Dia+ forum
3. There should be a thread for anyone to ask questions, answered by Dia+
I don't see any downside for the typical user here.
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On June 22 2013 15:18 Zooper31 wrote:
We alrdy went over why having a Diamond+ or w/e you wanna call it was a bad idea. It only stands to fragment the community and take away discussion from everyone.
That's why it is an excellent idea. Taking away discussion from "everyone" in one thread is a great idea, and all that fragmentation talk is slippery slope fear mongering that noone has backed up.
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On June 22 2013 15:20 upperbound wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2013 15:01 Ketara wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
A TROLLS Strategy: Level 1 buff donations
When the new jungle changes came out to change all spawn timers to 1:55, most people were concerned with whether or not the Jungler would still hit level 3 from two buff camps. Can anybody leech EXP? Can bot lane still do golems? Is the jungler affected positively or negatively by this?
However, we have found that this is not the correct question we should be asking. The correct question is "Who are we going to give the other buff to?"
Because junglers are not doing a camp at 1:40, there is effectively one extra jungle camp that they can do in their first clear. While a jungler can go Buff -> Buff and be level 3 at 3 minutes, they can also go Buff -> Wolves -> Wraiths -> Golems for level 3 at about 3:30, depending a little bit on how fast the jungler clears.
This frees up a laner to take the other buff, and go into lane at level 2 with a blue or red buff. The jungler does buff 1 with a single players and smites it, while the other 3 players do buff 2. The junglers smite will be up right around on time for double golems, possibly a little late if they're a fast clearer but then they don't much care anyway. This does require a little coordination in champion select in terms of what side are you on and what 3 players are doing which buff, but the outcome is very much worth it. Finally, the 3 people doing the buff leave the small lizards for the jungler to clear, so that the buffs do not spawn at the same time and you can secure one after the other later in the game.
Allowing a laner to come into lane at level 2 with blue or red buff creates certain matchups that are extremely one sided. We have tested this in 12 games so far, most as premades vs. other unsuspecting premades in draft normals. In 11 of 12 games the outcome was the buff donated lane absolutely dominating, often times having a 2-3 level lead and doubling or tripling the CS of their opponent. We tended to prefer mid lane for the buff donation, since applying pressure in mid applies the most global pressure, and it is a little easier to coordinate the mid laner taking a buff for either side. However, this strategy is versatile and can be applied to any lane.
So far we've tried the following:
Giving either blue or red to Kayle, to come into lane with Q and E. Both blue and red resulted in the lane won almost immediately.
Giving blue to Cassiopeia. This was probably the most successful, we saw Cassiopeia killing the enemy mid before the second minion wave had spawned.
Giving red to a mid lane Quinn. Also quite effective, it allowed Quinn to get level 6 very quickly while shutting the enemy mid down and then roam.
Giving red to a mid lane Wukong. This actually ended with a fight in the river and Wukong coming out with 4 kills, largely due to being level 2 in a level 1 fight.
Giving red to Caitlyn in both bot and mid lane, to come into lane with Q, E and red buff. This dramatically increased Caitlyn's bullying potential, when we tried it in bot lane she got a doublekill as soon as she came into lane.
Giving red to a Tristana and then lane swapping her to 2v1 the enemy top lane. Also very effective.
For junglers, we focused on champions who did not necessarily need both buffs to get things done. Zac, Karthus, Shen and Shaco were used. In the Shaco games we focused on also doing an early jungle invade, while the others would mostly just farm and play normally. Karthus was possibly the most effective. Karthus can give red to a mid laner, take all the blue buffs, and just go Wolves->Wraiths->Golems->Wolves->Wraiths->Golems until level 6. With this pattern Karthus hits level 6 with the 7 minute blue buff and can then begin to press R.
There are a lot more junglers that we'd like to try with this, as well as a lot more laners with scary level 2's. What we like most about this strategy, aside from the fact that it has been incredibly successful in all but one test game (where we admittedly derped), is that it is incredibly versatile. There are all sorts of champions with scary level 2 kill potential, and all sorts of junglers that do not absolutely have to have both buffs, or absolutely have to gank at 3 minutes. Given the right buff transfer to the right person, you are delaying the jungler 30 seconds, but guaranteeing one of your lanes wins, and wins hard.
We think this is by far the best strategy we've ever come up with in TROLLS, and think you guys should totally try it out for yourselves.
This is quite a cool idea in compositions that can abuse it. Did you guys ever get invaded while you tried this? How did you react? If the buff that the jungler is at gets invaded I can see it being devastating for him. EDIT: Added spoiler tags.
We actually did get invaded a few times, and it still worked out. The one lane with the buff just puts out so much pressure it's not even funny. Or we'd lose the buff that the laner intended to take one or two games, but they had to commit really hard to secure it and lost exp due to it. I think, just like vs. any invade, proper warding and awareness of how to play out level 1s + knowledge of where the enemy team is would handle it and make this strategy no weaker to invades than previous patches where top+mid lane would take wraiths or golems pretty often.
It also had the side effect of screwing up a lot of counter jungling because we would have no buff available right from 2:00, and the enemy jungler would commit to walking towards Karthus' redbuff right after clearing his blue, then see that mid has it, and would have to double back, losing time. (had this with Karthus vs. Nunu and Udyr in 2 dif games where counterjungling was attempted and didnt profit the other team at all.)
I don't think you're really in any worse position at pre-spawn than any other level 1 plan. You have 3 people on one side, two on the other - this was commonplace before the patch, except you were just giving a small camp to a sololaner. I'd almost say that you risk less than you do attempting a smiteless buff against an aggressive opposing team - we've all seen some wacky buff steals at level 1.
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On June 22 2013 15:28 cascades wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2013 15:18 Zooper31 wrote:
We alrdy went over why having a Diamond+ or w/e you wanna call it was a bad idea. It only stands to fragment the community and take away discussion from everyone. That's why it is an excellent idea. Taking away discussion from "everyone" in one thread is a great idea, and all that fragmentation talk is slippery slope fear mongering that noone has backed up.
Disagree. There's a lot of people who have good insight even though they aren't, say, more than high silver or gold, just because we have a lot of people in the TL community who are very cerebral. Perhaps they watch more than play, and get their insight off watching the latest stuff the koreans are doing over in OGN, or perhaps they're high elo at english language rather than at LoL.
I would love to see the 'quality strategy posters' like they have in SC2 strategy (high skill posters whose posts are a slightly different blue to stand out) I think that's a much better way to have good players/good posters have their strategic insight stand out, without excluding the rest of the community from the discussion.
Also, I think we'd benefit well from a 'general strategy discussion' thread over in the strat forum, if you want to have good strategy posts not get buried by the pandemonium of our hyperactive GD thread.
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I feel like I should know this, but how does true damage interact with spell vamp/lifesteal/heal?
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On June 22 2013 15:33 sylverfyre wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2013 15:20 upperbound wrote:On June 22 2013 15:01 Ketara wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
A TROLLS Strategy: Level 1 buff donations
When the new jungle changes came out to change all spawn timers to 1:55, most people were concerned with whether or not the Jungler would still hit level 3 from two buff camps. Can anybody leech EXP? Can bot lane still do golems? Is the jungler affected positively or negatively by this?
However, we have found that this is not the correct question we should be asking. The correct question is "Who are we going to give the other buff to?"
Because junglers are not doing a camp at 1:40, there is effectively one extra jungle camp that they can do in their first clear. While a jungler can go Buff -> Buff and be level 3 at 3 minutes, they can also go Buff -> Wolves -> Wraiths -> Golems for level 3 at about 3:30, depending a little bit on how fast the jungler clears.
This frees up a laner to take the other buff, and go into lane at level 2 with a blue or red buff. The jungler does buff 1 with a single players and smites it, while the other 3 players do buff 2. The junglers smite will be up right around on time for double golems, possibly a little late if they're a fast clearer but then they don't much care anyway. This does require a little coordination in champion select in terms of what side are you on and what 3 players are doing which buff, but the outcome is very much worth it. Finally, the 3 people doing the buff leave the small lizards for the jungler to clear, so that the buffs do not spawn at the same time and you can secure one after the other later in the game.
Allowing a laner to come into lane at level 2 with blue or red buff creates certain matchups that are extremely one sided. We have tested this in 12 games so far, most as premades vs. other unsuspecting premades in draft normals. In 11 of 12 games the outcome was the buff donated lane absolutely dominating, often times having a 2-3 level lead and doubling or tripling the CS of their opponent. We tended to prefer mid lane for the buff donation, since applying pressure in mid applies the most global pressure, and it is a little easier to coordinate the mid laner taking a buff for either side. However, this strategy is versatile and can be applied to any lane.
So far we've tried the following:
Giving either blue or red to Kayle, to come into lane with Q and E. Both blue and red resulted in the lane won almost immediately.
Giving blue to Cassiopeia. This was probably the most successful, we saw Cassiopeia killing the enemy mid before the second minion wave had spawned.
Giving red to a mid lane Quinn. Also quite effective, it allowed Quinn to get level 6 very quickly while shutting the enemy mid down and then roam.
Giving red to a mid lane Wukong. This actually ended with a fight in the river and Wukong coming out with 4 kills, largely due to being level 2 in a level 1 fight.
Giving red to Caitlyn in both bot and mid lane, to come into lane with Q, E and red buff. This dramatically increased Caitlyn's bullying potential, when we tried it in bot lane she got a doublekill as soon as she came into lane.
Giving red to a Tristana and then lane swapping her to 2v1 the enemy top lane. Also very effective.
For junglers, we focused on champions who did not necessarily need both buffs to get things done. Zac, Karthus, Shen and Shaco were used. In the Shaco games we focused on also doing an early jungle invade, while the others would mostly just farm and play normally. Karthus was possibly the most effective. Karthus can give red to a mid laner, take all the blue buffs, and just go Wolves->Wraiths->Golems->Wolves->Wraiths->Golems until level 6. With this pattern Karthus hits level 6 with the 7 minute blue buff and can then begin to press R.
There are a lot more junglers that we'd like to try with this, as well as a lot more laners with scary level 2's. What we like most about this strategy, aside from the fact that it has been incredibly successful in all but one test game (where we admittedly derped), is that it is incredibly versatile. There are all sorts of champions with scary level 2 kill potential, and all sorts of junglers that do not absolutely have to have both buffs, or absolutely have to gank at 3 minutes. Given the right buff transfer to the right person, you are delaying the jungler 30 seconds, but guaranteeing one of your lanes wins, and wins hard.
We think this is by far the best strategy we've ever come up with in TROLLS, and think you guys should totally try it out for yourselves.
This is quite a cool idea in compositions that can abuse it. Did you guys ever get invaded while you tried this? How did you react? If the buff that the jungler is at gets invaded I can see it being devastating for him. EDIT: Added spoiler tags. We actually did get invaded a few times, and it still worked out. The one lane with the buff just puts out so much pressure it's not even funny. Or we'd lose the buff that the laner intended to take one or two games, but they had to commit really hard to secure it and lost exp due to it. I think, just like vs. any invade, proper warding and awareness of how to play out level 1s + knowledge of where the enemy team is would handle it and make this strategy no weaker to invades than previous patches where top+mid lane would take wraiths or golems pretty often. It also had the side effect of screweing up a lot of counter jungling because we would have no buff available right from 2:00.
One of our games turned out very funny, we had a Nunu trying to invade and counterjungle for the entire early part of the game, but we took both buffs at 1:55 and then had a jungle Karthus doing every camp right as it spawned, and ended up 2 levels higher than Nunu because he spent so much time wandering our jungle with all the camps dead.
Like sylverfire said, we did get invaded in I think 3 games. Only one ended up with a buff being stolen and in all 3 of them the laner with the donated buff won the lane so hard that it didn't matter.
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United States47024 Posts
On June 22 2013 15:28 cascades wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2013 15:18 Zooper31 wrote:
We alrdy went over why having a Diamond+ or w/e you wanna call it was a bad idea. It only stands to fragment the community and take away discussion from everyone. That's why it is an excellent idea. Taking away discussion from "everyone" in one thread is a great idea, and all that fragmentation talk is slippery slope fear mongering that noone has backed up.
Let's be honest, TL LoL is a small subcommunity, It doesn't make sense for us to fragment/distinguish people because everybody should very quickly know who the good posters are. There's no need to make them stand out because they already stand out. Likewise bad posters can be quickly moderated because there simply isn't that much volume.
Again, the idea made sense in the SC2 subforums because of the nature of that forum. After SC2's release the posting volume absolutely exploded making conventional moderation impossible, and likewise there were too many posters to know everyone. This kind of thing was only a last resort used because for such a massive number of posters it was the best available solution. It simply is not useful in a subforum where the moderation arguably outstrips the needs of the subforum (I would posit that the staff-to-active-poster ratio in this subforum is relatively high compared to other parts of the site) and people tend to know who people are very quickly.
Maybe it will have more merit if TL ever became officially supported LoL and we had a massive influx of new posters, but as is, you should know who is who, at least among the regular posters.
If the concern is the off-topic/meaningless discussion in GD, then that is an issue with moderation or with the possibility of splitting GD into 2 threads. Having a Diamond-only subforum/thread is not the most practical solution to an issue that's ultimately a moderation/organizational issue.
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On June 22 2013 15:28 cascades wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2013 15:18 Zooper31 wrote:
We alrdy went over why having a Diamond+ or w/e you wanna call it was a bad idea. It only stands to fragment the community and take away discussion from everyone. That's why it is an excellent idea. Taking away discussion from "everyone" in one thread is a great idea, and all that fragmentation talk is slippery slope fear mongering that noone has backed up.
Seen it happen before and I'd rather not take a chance.
As Yango above pointed out and an example I used before. SC2 didn't need it with their massive numbers but our tiny sub community for LoL does? Doesn't make any sense. There's more risks involved than benefits. If you know where to look you can get the information and good players know this.
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On June 22 2013 15:33 sylverfyre wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2013 15:20 upperbound wrote:On June 22 2013 15:01 Ketara wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
A TROLLS Strategy: Level 1 buff donations
When the new jungle changes came out to change all spawn timers to 1:55, most people were concerned with whether or not the Jungler would still hit level 3 from two buff camps. Can anybody leech EXP? Can bot lane still do golems? Is the jungler affected positively or negatively by this?
However, we have found that this is not the correct question we should be asking. The correct question is "Who are we going to give the other buff to?"
Because junglers are not doing a camp at 1:40, there is effectively one extra jungle camp that they can do in their first clear. While a jungler can go Buff -> Buff and be level 3 at 3 minutes, they can also go Buff -> Wolves -> Wraiths -> Golems for level 3 at about 3:30, depending a little bit on how fast the jungler clears.
This frees up a laner to take the other buff, and go into lane at level 2 with a blue or red buff. The jungler does buff 1 with a single players and smites it, while the other 3 players do buff 2. The junglers smite will be up right around on time for double golems, possibly a little late if they're a fast clearer but then they don't much care anyway. This does require a little coordination in champion select in terms of what side are you on and what 3 players are doing which buff, but the outcome is very much worth it. Finally, the 3 people doing the buff leave the small lizards for the jungler to clear, so that the buffs do not spawn at the same time and you can secure one after the other later in the game.
Allowing a laner to come into lane at level 2 with blue or red buff creates certain matchups that are extremely one sided. We have tested this in 12 games so far, most as premades vs. other unsuspecting premades in draft normals. In 11 of 12 games the outcome was the buff donated lane absolutely dominating, often times having a 2-3 level lead and doubling or tripling the CS of their opponent. We tended to prefer mid lane for the buff donation, since applying pressure in mid applies the most global pressure, and it is a little easier to coordinate the mid laner taking a buff for either side. However, this strategy is versatile and can be applied to any lane.
So far we've tried the following:
Giving either blue or red to Kayle, to come into lane with Q and E. Both blue and red resulted in the lane won almost immediately.
Giving blue to Cassiopeia. This was probably the most successful, we saw Cassiopeia killing the enemy mid before the second minion wave had spawned.
Giving red to a mid lane Quinn. Also quite effective, it allowed Quinn to get level 6 very quickly while shutting the enemy mid down and then roam.
Giving red to a mid lane Wukong. This actually ended with a fight in the river and Wukong coming out with 4 kills, largely due to being level 2 in a level 1 fight.
Giving red to Caitlyn in both bot and mid lane, to come into lane with Q, E and red buff. This dramatically increased Caitlyn's bullying potential, when we tried it in bot lane she got a doublekill as soon as she came into lane.
Giving red to a Tristana and then lane swapping her to 2v1 the enemy top lane. Also very effective.
For junglers, we focused on champions who did not necessarily need both buffs to get things done. Zac, Karthus, Shen and Shaco were used. In the Shaco games we focused on also doing an early jungle invade, while the others would mostly just farm and play normally. Karthus was possibly the most effective. Karthus can give red to a mid laner, take all the blue buffs, and just go Wolves->Wraiths->Golems->Wolves->Wraiths->Golems until level 6. With this pattern Karthus hits level 6 with the 7 minute blue buff and can then begin to press R.
There are a lot more junglers that we'd like to try with this, as well as a lot more laners with scary level 2's. What we like most about this strategy, aside from the fact that it has been incredibly successful in all but one test game (where we admittedly derped), is that it is incredibly versatile. There are all sorts of champions with scary level 2 kill potential, and all sorts of junglers that do not absolutely have to have both buffs, or absolutely have to gank at 3 minutes. Given the right buff transfer to the right person, you are delaying the jungler 30 seconds, but guaranteeing one of your lanes wins, and wins hard.
We think this is by far the best strategy we've ever come up with in TROLLS, and think you guys should totally try it out for yourselves.
This is quite a cool idea in compositions that can abuse it. Did you guys ever get invaded while you tried this? How did you react? If the buff that the jungler is at gets invaded I can see it being devastating for him. EDIT: Added spoiler tags. We actually did get invaded a few times, and it still worked out. The one lane with the buff just puts out so much pressure it's not even funny. Or we'd lose the buff that the laner intended to take one or two games, but they had to commit really hard to secure it and lost exp due to it. I think, just like vs. any invade, proper warding and awareness of how to play out level 1s + knowledge of where the enemy team is would handle it and make this strategy no weaker to invades than previous patches where top+mid lane would take wraiths or golems pretty often. It also had the side effect of screweing up a lot of counter jungling because we would have no buff available right from 2:00.
Interesting! I was also gonna ask about lane swaps, but I doubt that came up in premade normals. The season 2 "give blue buff to Olaf and let him farm with axes" kind of gave a glimpse into that potential, but I'm having a hard time seeing the way gifting red buff would play out in such lanes.
I have a feeling that people might explore this some more, I certainly would like to.
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On June 22 2013 15:41 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2013 15:28 cascades wrote:On June 22 2013 15:18 Zooper31 wrote:
We alrdy went over why having a Diamond+ or w/e you wanna call it was a bad idea. It only stands to fragment the community and take away discussion from everyone. That's why it is an excellent idea. Taking away discussion from "everyone" in one thread is a great idea, and all that fragmentation talk is slippery slope fear mongering that noone has backed up. Let's be honest, TL LoL is a small subcommunity, It doesn't make sense for us to fragment/distinguish people because everybody should very quickly know who the good posters are. There's no need to make them stand out because they already stand out. Likewise bad posters can be quickly moderated because there simply isn't that much volume. Again, the idea made sense in the SC2 subforums because of the nature of that forum. After SC2's release the posting volume absolutely exploded making conventional moderation impossible, and likewise there were too many posters to know everyone. This kind of thing was only a last resort used because for such a massive number of posters it was the best available solution. It simply is not useful in a subforum where the moderation arguably outstrips the needs of the subforum (I would posit that the staff-to-active-poster ratio in this subforum is relatively high compared to other parts of the site) and people tend to know who people are very quickly. Maybe it will have more merit if TL ever became officially supported LoL and we had a massive influx of new posters, but as is, you should know who is who, at least among the regular posters. If the concern is the off-topic/meaningless discussion in GD, then that is an issue with moderation or with the possibility of splitting GD into 2 threads. Having a Diamond-only subforum/thread is not the most practical solution to an issue that's ultimately a moderation/organizational issue.
I still have dreams of a TL sponsored team! I miss watching numbers and the other guys compete. Felt so much like rooting for your home team.
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Why don't the people that want that diamond only thread just not make one to try and see how it turns out?
If you really want one so bad, don't wait for others to do it for you
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On June 22 2013 15:39 ticklishmusic wrote:
I feel like I should know this, but how does true damage interact with spell vamp/lifesteal/heal?
Depends on the ability. The true damage dots of Lizardbuff and Spirit of Elder Lizard, I believe, benefit from neither. Olaf's Reckless Swing and Ahri's Orb of Deception benefit from Spell Vamp. It's basically the same as magic damage, afaik. Magic damage applied by an autoattack (due to a skill or an item or w/e) doesn't interact with anything - likewise, neither does true damage. Magic damage applied directly by a skill gets spell vamp - so does true damage by a skill.
Hiten Style and Silver bolts don't get anything special. (well, i'm 100% sure about hiten, not as sure about silver bolts because i'm the worst vayne in the world.)
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EPT
