• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 02:10
CEST 08:10
KST 15:10
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Tournament Spotlight: FEL Cracow 20254Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202576RSL Season 1 - Final Week9[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18
Community News
Google Play ASL (Season 20) Announced20BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams10Weekly Cups (July 14-20): Final Check-up0Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed19Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll8
StarCraft 2
General
#1: Maru - Greatest Players of All Time I offer completely free coaching services Tournament Spotlight: FEL Cracow 2025 Power Rank - Esports World Cup 2025 What tournaments are world championships?
Tourneys
Esports World Cup 2025 $25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced $5,000 WardiTV Summer Championship 2025 WardiTV Mondays FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $10,000 live event
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation #239 Bad Weather Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion Google Play ASL (Season 20) Announced BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Flash Announces (and Retracts) Hiatus From ASL Dewalt's Show Matches in China
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China CSL Xiamen International Invitational [CSLPRO] It's CSLAN Season! - Last Chance
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers [G] Mineral Boosting Does 1 second matter in StarCraft?
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Total Annihilation Server - TAForever [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok) Path of Exile
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread UK Politics Mega-thread Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread
Fan Clubs
INnoVation Fan Club SKT1 Classic Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TeamLiquid Team Shirt On Sale The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Socialism Anyone?
GreenHorizons
Eight Anniversary as a TL…
Mizenhauer
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 603 users

[Patch 3.08: Aatrox Patch] General Discussion - Page 13

Forum Index > LoL General
Post a Reply
Prev 1 11 12 13 14 15 380 Next
Interested in helping start an on-topic, serious League discussion thread? PM Neo to talk about how to get started.
Seuss
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States10536 Posts
June 11 2013 19:32 GMT
#241
On June 12 2013 04:14 Vanka wrote:
Speaking of tear, late game amumu, let's say you need one damage item, what do you buy?

Last game I bought a 35 minute Archangel's because I was going oom and I needed the damage to kill the khazix who was always diving and killing our draven. It worked out that game since I had 40% CDR anyway so I cleaned up most fights, being the last to die and because I could spiderman bandage down people with 6 or whatever second cd on bandage.

The only issue was by the end, I bought the item so late that it wasn't fully charged at the end, even with making amumu cry constantly with the toggle.

So far the options I think are viable are AA, abyssal, and athene's. Abyssal synergizes well with his passive, if you actually have the presence of mind to auto people in teamfights, athene's gives cdr, mana (which amumu likes), and mr, while AA gives the most AP and the most mana, plus tankiness if you eventually get it stacked.


I prefer Athene's. You get more AP out of Archangel's, but 20% CDR means your team waits 22 fewer seconds for your ultimate (which is a lifetime late game), and you get to spam more stuns/tantrums etc. It also has defensive stats which don't depend upon you having mana. However, Abyssal is really strong if you have a lot of magic damage on your team.
"I am not able to carry all this people alone, for they are too heavy for me." -Moses (Numbers 11:14)
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
June 11 2013 19:37 GMT
#242
On June 12 2013 04:13 Slusher wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 12 2013 04:09 Spaiku wrote:
On June 12 2013 03:54 cLutZ wrote:
I don't get why Muramana is allowed to exist anyways.

A champ is either supposed to have mana problems, or it is not. If it is supposed to have problems you are supposed to have to be weakened to make up for this (this is why Athene's was nerfed). Or, you are supposed to have to just accept that and play smart. (Ashe has mana problems, she just has to be smart and save enough mana for ult at all times).

Agree with this

Nerfing Tear/Muramana/Seraph's would help to tone down problematic champions like Ryze, Jayce and KhaZix


Yorick.


I don't agree that Ryze is a problem. He is supposed to have the mana curve that he gets with Tear/AA/Manamune buildpaths. That IS Ryze. The problem is not Ryze+Tear, it is POSSIBLY that his earlygame isn't painful enough since the Boots changes.
Freeeeeeedom
Leonite7
Profile Joined July 2011
Ireland921 Posts
June 11 2013 19:45 GMT
#243
Is the patch live on EUW yet?
wei2coolman
Profile Joined November 2010
United States60033 Posts
June 11 2013 19:45 GMT
#244
On June 12 2013 03:54 cLutZ wrote:
I don't get why Muramana is allowed to exist anyways.

A champ is either supposed to have mana problems, or it is not. If it is supposed to have problems you are supposed to have to be weakened to make up for this (this is why Athene's was nerfed). Or, you are supposed to have to just accept that and play smart. (Ashe has mana problems, she just has to be smart and save enough mana for ult at all times).

Well 700 gold spent on mana in early game is the cost.
liftlift > tsm
Zooper31
Profile Joined May 2009
United States5710 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-11 19:46:26
June 11 2013 19:45 GMT
#245
On June 12 2013 04:37 cLutZ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 12 2013 04:13 Slusher wrote:
On June 12 2013 04:09 Spaiku wrote:
On June 12 2013 03:54 cLutZ wrote:
I don't get why Muramana is allowed to exist anyways.

A champ is either supposed to have mana problems, or it is not. If it is supposed to have problems you are supposed to have to be weakened to make up for this (this is why Athene's was nerfed). Or, you are supposed to have to just accept that and play smart. (Ashe has mana problems, she just has to be smart and save enough mana for ult at all times).

Agree with this

Nerfing Tear/Muramana/Seraph's would help to tone down problematic champions like Ryze, Jayce and KhaZix


Yorick.


I don't agree that Ryze is a problem. He is supposed to have the mana curve that he gets with Tear/AA/Manamune buildpaths. That IS Ryze. The problem is not Ryze+Tear, it is POSSIBLY that his earlygame isn't painful enough since the Boots changes.


Agreed, Ryze's whole concept is be around stacking mana and getting more powerful with that for a curve. Jayce, Khazix, and Yorick all don't scale with mana directly for their dmg and they should have mana problems because their kits are so good. But tears completely negates that problem and then they just snowball out of control if you didn't completely stomp on them in the lane phase.

On June 12 2013 04:45 Leonite7 wrote:
Is the patch live on EUW yet?


Not even live on NA yet.
Asato ma sad gamaya, tamaso ma jyotir gamaya, mrtyor mamrtam gamaya
Ryuu314
Profile Joined October 2009
United States12679 Posts
June 11 2013 19:46 GMT
#246
On June 12 2013 04:14 Vanka wrote:
Speaking of tear, late game amumu, let's say you need one damage item, what do you buy?

Last game I bought a 35 minute Archangel's because I was going oom and I needed the damage to kill the khazix who was always diving and killing our draven. It worked out that game since I had 40% CDR anyway so I cleaned up most fights, being the last to die and because I could spiderman bandage down people with 6 or whatever second cd on bandage.

The only issue was by the end, I bought the item so late that it wasn't fully charged at the end, even with making amumu cry constantly with the toggle.

So far the options I think are viable are AA, abyssal, and athene's. Abyssal synergizes well with his passive, if you actually have the presence of mind to auto people in teamfights, athene's gives cdr, mana (which amumu likes), and mr, while AA gives the most AP and the most mana, plus tankiness if you eventually get it stacked.

rylais

cry slowing tears op
Zooper31
Profile Joined May 2009
United States5710 Posts
June 11 2013 19:50 GMT
#247
On June 12 2013 04:46 Ryuu314 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 12 2013 04:14 Vanka wrote:
Speaking of tear, late game amumu, let's say you need one damage item, what do you buy?

Last game I bought a 35 minute Archangel's because I was going oom and I needed the damage to kill the khazix who was always diving and killing our draven. It worked out that game since I had 40% CDR anyway so I cleaned up most fights, being the last to die and because I could spiderman bandage down people with 6 or whatever second cd on bandage.

The only issue was by the end, I bought the item so late that it wasn't fully charged at the end, even with making amumu cry constantly with the toggle.

So far the options I think are viable are AA, abyssal, and athene's. Abyssal synergizes well with his passive, if you actually have the presence of mind to auto people in teamfights, athene's gives cdr, mana (which amumu likes), and mr, while AA gives the most AP and the most mana, plus tankiness if you eventually get it stacked.

rylais

cry slowing tears op


Rylais, Liandry's, Sunfire, Spellvamp jungle item (forgot name), Merc/Tabi. Then 6th item is either Abyssal for MR or FH for armor. Never thought about getting 40% cdr on Amumu. His only spell to take adv of it would be ult and bandage toss really. E refreshes quick enough being auto'd and W is just a toggle.
Asato ma sad gamaya, tamaso ma jyotir gamaya, mrtyor mamrtam gamaya
JonGalt
Profile Joined February 2013
Pootie too good!4331 Posts
June 11 2013 19:51 GMT
#248
na.lolesports.com/season3/summerpromotion/articles/team-changes-between-splits

Great article for anyone looking to get a recap on all the team changes between splits.
LiquidLegends StaffWho is Jon Galt?
Lounge
Profile Joined November 2011
537 Posts
June 11 2013 19:54 GMT
#249
When the introduced manamune turning into muramana they originally said it was to attempt to include an alternate build path for some champions like Ez or Corki so they would feel less punished for building it if you wanted to play a spell-happy version of the champion, instead of an auto attack focused one.

It worked fairly well for Ez, it didn't work at all for Corki

I think it should ideally be: Manamune Jayce pokes you a lot but is manageable damage, and doesn't mind so much if he misses, something like Bloodthirster Jayce would rely on his poke hitting or he'd run OOM, but would do much more damage.

Right now Manamune Jayce pokes you all day AND deletes you once he connects. So I guess he needs to have his base damage lowered but scaling increased? That way if you like the all-in on connect aspect of Jayce, you build BT, if you like to poke all day and disengage you build tear/CDR.
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
June 11 2013 19:56 GMT
#250
On June 12 2013 04:45 wei2coolman wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 12 2013 03:54 cLutZ wrote:
I don't get why Muramana is allowed to exist anyways.

A champ is either supposed to have mana problems, or it is not. If it is supposed to have problems you are supposed to have to be weakened to make up for this (this is why Athene's was nerfed). Or, you are supposed to have to just accept that and play smart. (Ashe has mana problems, she just has to be smart and save enough mana for ult at all times).

Well 700 gold spent on mana in early game is the cost.


That would be a legit cost if we were talking about a champ like Jax who cannot choose when to engage/disengage. The Muramana problem champs don't have that trouble. Jayce, Yorik, and old Khazix control the lane so well when they have the mana to spam spells.

This is why Ryze is fine, because he gets Dictated to Early game (you could argue that its not enough anymore because tear is cheaper and Sapphire/charm starts are legit). Oh by the way he also can't charge tear for free in base/running to lane, he has to target enemies/jungle camps.

700 G spent on mana is only a cost if you are super susceptible to all-ins, and have little control over when those occur.
Freeeeeeedom
Slusher
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States19143 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-11 19:59:39
June 11 2013 19:58 GMT
#251
On June 12 2013 04:54 Lounge wrote:
When the introduced manamune turning into muramana they originally said it was to attempt to include an alternate build path for some champions like Ez or Corki so they would feel less punished for building it if you wanted to play a spell-happy version of the champion, instead of an auto attack focused one.

It worked fairly well for Ez, it didn't work at all for Corki

I think it should ideally be: Manamune Jayce pokes you a lot but is manageable damage, and doesn't mind so much if he misses, something like Bloodthirster Jayce would rely on his poke hitting or he'd run OOM, but would do much more damage.

Right now Manamune Jayce pokes you all day AND deletes you once he connects. So I guess he needs to have his base damage lowered but scaling increased? That way if you like the all-in on connect aspect of Jayce, you build BT, if you like to poke all day and disengage you build tear/CDR.


the whole "Deleting" part has nothing to do with Jayce's base damage/ratios and everything to do with max attack speed (W) + Manamura active @ 16-20 min, then a good jayce can snowball this into 5-6 items by 30 min and then that IS a scaling issue but for a different reason.
Carrilord has arrived.
onlywonderboy
Profile Joined August 2012
United States23745 Posts
June 11 2013 19:59 GMT
#252
On June 12 2013 04:51 JonGalt wrote:
na.lolesports.com/season3/summerpromotion/articles/team-changes-between-splits

Great article for anyone looking to get a recap on all the team changes between splits.

Edward to Curse, nothing else matters huehuehue.
RIP Ryan Davis / TL or Die / @onlywonderboy
wei2coolman
Profile Joined November 2010
United States60033 Posts
June 11 2013 20:00 GMT
#253
But that's 700 is equivalent to oppurtunity cost of what they could've done with like dblade and pots.
liftlift > tsm
Slusher
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States19143 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-11 20:09:58
June 11 2013 20:05 GMT
#254
On June 12 2013 05:00 wei2coolman wrote:
But that's 700 is equivalent to oppurtunity cost of what they could've done with like dblade and pots.


if Yorick came back to lane with a Dblade, I'd be D-lighted.

to be fair I think Yorick kinda needs tear I mean just look at how nitch he is now despite being super easy to dominate lane with (esp now with elder lizard). the problem is like he said, these champions have tools that make mana every bit as good as a Dblade, and then they get a crazy item 15 min later for having bought it.

Pretend any of these champions came back to a lane with Chalice and ask yourself how balanced Tear/Manamune/Muramana really is.

edit: as an aside what if tear before upgrade was mana stacking only no regen, then it would truely have opportunity cost?
Carrilord has arrived.
Dgiese
Profile Joined July 2010
United States2687 Posts
June 11 2013 20:10 GMT
#255
On June 12 2013 04:59 onlywonderboy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 12 2013 04:51 JonGalt wrote:
na.lolesports.com/season3/summerpromotion/articles/team-changes-between-splits

Great article for anyone looking to get a recap on all the team changes between splits.

Edward to Curse, nothing else matters huehuehue.

I'd say nien to clg top, rather than replacing Cop should count.
man niedward would be a sick lane
onlywonderboy
Profile Joined August 2012
United States23745 Posts
June 11 2013 20:13 GMT
#256
On June 12 2013 05:10 Dgiese wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 12 2013 04:59 onlywonderboy wrote:
On June 12 2013 04:51 JonGalt wrote:
na.lolesports.com/season3/summerpromotion/articles/team-changes-between-splits

Great article for anyone looking to get a recap on all the team changes between splits.

Edward to Curse, nothing else matters huehuehue.

I'd say nien to clg top, rather than replacing Cop should count.
man niedward would be a sick lane

No arguments here. This is Cop's last chance to prove himself. He usually played solid despite a questionable support, but if he doesn't improve with Edward I think he might be in trouble.
RIP Ryan Davis / TL or Die / @onlywonderboy
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
June 11 2013 20:19 GMT
#257
On June 12 2013 05:00 wei2coolman wrote:
But that's 700 is equivalent to oppurtunity cost of what they could've done with like dblade and pots.


But what is that cost? The goal of everyone is to avoid buying items like Dblade as much as possible. If you buy Dblade you need to do something with it.

Your point makes sense on Ezreal because he can't just push and back. He can poke you out of lane or disengage if you try to all in if he goes for tear.

Jayce/Kha(pre these new changes) especially can waveclear (while possibly chipping you down), poke, and disengage, with relatively strong all-ins even with tear. Tear turns them into Zed, who also happens to be a problem.
Freeeeeeedom
FakeSteve[TPR]
Profile Blog Joined July 2003
Valhalla18444 Posts
June 11 2013 20:34 GMT
#258
AD Sona is well and truly dead now. Fuck her support role, Riot just give me a bonus AD ratio on her Q powerchord! Please!
Moderatormy tatsu loops r fuckin nice
101toss
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
3232 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-11 22:07:43
June 11 2013 22:07 GMT
#259
top/mid nunu and dem 400g doran rings

challenger here i come
Math doesn't kill champions and neither do wards
caelym
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States6421 Posts
June 11 2013 22:22 GMT
#260
TSM really bringing out the smack talk at E3. Xpecial has also been a lot more outspoken recently.
bnet: caelym#1470 | Twitter: @caelym
Prev 1 11 12 13 14 15 380 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 2h 50m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
WinterStarcraft788
Nina 291
ProTech41
StarCraft: Brood War
Sea 1682
Larva 440
Backho 185
scan(afreeca) 84
zelot 76
Sexy 58
sSak 49
IntoTheRainbow 6
League of Legends
JimRising 784
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor182
Other Games
summit1g8808
ViBE175
RuFF_SC288
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1392
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH275
• practicex 39
• Light_VIP 19
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• lizZardDota271
League of Legends
• Lourlo1364
Upcoming Events
FEL
2h 50m
Krystianer vs sOs
SKillous vs ArT
MaNa vs Elazer
Spirit vs Gerald
Clem vs TBD
uThermal vs TBD
Reynor vs TBD
Lambo vs TBD
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
7h 50m
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
11h 50m
Bonyth vs Zhanhun
Dewalt vs Mihu
Hawk vs Sziky
Sziky vs QiaoGege
Mihu vs Hawk
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs Bonyth
Sparkling Tuna Cup
2 days
Online Event
2 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
3 days
The PondCast
4 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Korean StarCraft League
5 days
CranKy Ducklings
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL 20 Non-Korean Championship
BSL 20 Team Wars
FEL Cracov 2025
CC Div. A S7
Underdog Cup #2
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

ASL Season 20: Qualifier #1
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #2
ASL Season 20
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
SEL Season 2 Championship
WardiTV Summer 2025
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
HCC Europe
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.