EPT[Patch 1.0.0.150: Shadow Isles] General Discussion - Page…
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
On November 05 2012 12:09 Alaric wrote: Looking at Zed, I find his kit kinda awkward, because his "burst" is, assuming ult+W setup so all spells hit the target thrice: AD (ult) + 460 + 2.0 bonus AD (Q + 50% damage Q twice) + 180 + 0.9 bonus AD (E) = 640 + 2.9 bonus AD + total AD. When factoring in his ult it does (assuming level 16) 1.5 AD + 4.35 bonus AD + 960 damage. It's a bit more if you manage to proc his passive with that burst (which may very well be possible during the early/mid game, but won't once his targets have some HP/armor seeing how we consider the case where he procs it before the mark explodes), with up to 12% of the target's max health, closer to 6-8% lategame as it is mostly magic damage and he won't build any MPen. For some comparison, the burst from other AD burst casters (I'm not really going to count Rengar in, since he's often built tanky now, and he automatically wins with his 450 + 5 total AD if you manage your ferocity for a double Empowered Q on his ult, even before factoring W/E in; Kha'Zix wins automatically on an isolated target, otherwise he does a bit less burst, which is what interests us here, and a bit to a lot more over a few seconds with his ult for passive resets): Talon: 1020 + 4.5 bonus AD + AD, can possibly add 1 AD ratio if he does aa->Q. Doesn't take the amplification from his passive and E into account, and a lot of it is in a respectable AoE. Pantheon: 545 + 5.0 bonus AD (+ 650 + 1.5 AP magic) + AD, adding one auto if he goes W->auto->E->Q (or Q->E), with a big chunk of the physical damage in AoE, and considering that he'll miss most of the magic damage (500) if he queues up another spell during his fall (from what I've noticed, his ult does no damage nor does it slow if you queue up a spell as Pantheon doesn't play the landing animation). I'm not saying that Zed's damage is too low, of course, but it feels, when you look at his numbers, kinda low because his ultimate plays such a huge part in it, as gap closer, tool for enhancing his burst, and main part of said burst. If you take away the ultimate (and thus damage equivalent to 1 AD + 50% of his Q damage from the basic burst), he feels pretty underwhelming, kinda like Xerath. Of course he still has harassment tools like his Q, which Rengar lacks, and escape tools, which Talon and Pantheon lack outside of their ults (they can use their jumps, but it's awkward as they need to jump to an hostile target, which must be a champ in Panth's case), but it leaves me wondering about the way he's going to be played when his ult is on cooldown. Also the lack of sustain or defensive steroids, while good (see Rengar and Kha'Zix, or even Diana... ), make him seem frail in the jungle. From what I've seen so far he can't really jungle off of dblades the way Nocturne, Riven, Lee Sin can, and a wriggles doesn't go too well with his kit I feel. I'm stil curious because his kit seems fun and interesting, but the numbers making his ult so essential and the way his kit goes with jungling leave me wondering. That was my impression as well... I played him in a bots game and he just felt... underwhelming. Not to say he is bad, its possible I just dont get him as a champion, but it took me 20 minutes to go legendary in a 1v2 lane as an assassin in a bots game. As an assassin I felt like I had very minimal kill potential unless my ult was up, and even then it was only an assassinate one target thing... which as an assassin having twice as much gold as my god aweful automated opponents just isn't that good. It also felt rather difficult to properly set up double damage skills with shadows. I dunno, his kit is theoretically really cool, but it just seems lacking to me. No CC, mediocre damage. I dont see draw to play him over Talon, Akali, Diana, Kass, or even Pantheon aside from "wtf sick jukes!" in which case might as well play LB or Shaco, | ||
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UniversalSnip
9871 Posts
On November 05 2012 12:53 ticklishmusic wrote: that would be hard-- bruiser items (as we saw in new TT) are really, really strong. I doubt it's as unrealistic as it seems. We think of a lot more things as being embedded in the design of the game than actually are. | ||
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CeriseCherries
6170 Posts
the mlg infection. balance complaints in LoL GD XD | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On November 05 2012 12:50 UniversalSnip wrote: It seems like it would be better to alleviate that by making glass cannon builds less attractive through itemization changes than addressing a systemic issue on a champion by champion basis, but the point is well taken. Karthus certainly isn't solving the problem you describe by being the way he is, though, just exploiting it. It's more or less both a champion design issue and an itemization issue, insofar as you don't want to to totally phase out the glass cannon DPS items also. If you want them to remain viable when the circumstances allow for them, then you have to address the issue on the gameplay end as well. The role of ranged AP and AD isn't going to change--maximize physical/magical damage dealt while making use of range and positioning to minimize the need for damage mitigation. The thing is that the quality of peeling/CC, coupled with the huge number of escape skills available to ranged damage dealers currently means that aside from a few wide range CCs or initiation spells, the threat to a ranged damage dealer can be minimized and contained through the use of single defensive items (e.g. GA, Zhonya, QSS). It creates the ranged/melee damage disparity discussed, while also making a lot of these mixed offense/defense items like RoA or Rylai's fairly niche buys as far as ranged champs are concerned. While you could address this on the itemization end to make these options more enticing, I don't think this is the best option--so long as there is no NEED for ranged to itemize more defense than they do now, increasing the appeal of these semi- or full-defensive items for them isn't going to make them buy them unless you overbuff their cost-effectiveness to the point of obsoleting current DPS or survivability item options, which is problematic in its own way. Instead, token threats like Karthus ultimate that force some defensive itemization, but also do not crush the ranged DPS roles on the whole can encourage such defensive itemization. | ||
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Craton
United States17303 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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thenexusp
United States3721 Posts
it was fun | ||
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Tal
United Kingdom1018 Posts
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
On November 05 2012 12:55 iCanada wrote: That was my impression as well... I played him in a bots game and he just felt... underwhelming. Not to say he is bad, its possible I just dont get him as a champion, but it took me 20 minutes to go legendary in a 1v2 lane as an assassin in a bots game. As an assassin I felt like I had very minimal kill potential unless my ult was up, and even then it was only an assassinate one target thing... which as an assassin having twice as much gold as my god aweful automated opponents just isn't that good. It also felt rather difficult to properly set up double damage skills with shadows. I dunno, his kit is theoretically really cool, but it just seems lacking to me. No CC, mediocre damage. I dont see draw to play him over Talon, Akali, Diana, Kass, or even Pantheon aside from "wtf sick jukes!" in which case might as well play LB or Shaco, A thing that may play into it is the way his ult functions: it's basically an execution move, but with a built-in delay. So when you use it you tell your opponent that you're going all-in, and amongst the pros is the fact that once you know you've done enough that the mark will kill your target, you can withdraw (which on top of being badass is supposed to be kinda safe for experimented players, but the duration is still only 3 seconds in the end). But it if happens then you also have to account for the opposing team to have shields or heals of some kind, hence I've seen a lot of people use it as a standard gap closer to unleash a combo with easy multiple Qs/E slow and finish off an opponent that was already far below the threshold for a kill. I see the design behind it and how it can be cool and safe and a change from a lot of stuff (also "don't flash, the mark will finish you off anyway") but it's rather counter-intuitive atm. He feels like a champ that grants a lot of room to improve with, because of how many variables you have to take into account. But like release Syndra, it's underwhelming because it's a huge setup for an average-to-low reward. Also his energy consumption is fairly high. | ||
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Craton
United States17303 Posts
That it happens to have a delay and make you think it should be saved for executions is just a misnomer. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
 I do agree that Karthus' ult isn't a finisher and I'd like to see it used more often simply to move people off a tower or prevent them from attacking a baron attempt, a la "you're all at 80% HP, do you really want to fight us now?". Doesn't work as well against champs with heals and shields of course, but... | ||
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
On November 05 2012 13:24 Craton wrote: It's not an execution move, though. You can (and everyone does) ult preemptively before pushing down a tower or inhib or even dragon/baron, though it's usually used for the former. That it happens to have a delay and make you think it should be saved for executions is just a misnomer. It's definitely an execution move in soloQ :D | ||
onlywonderboy
United States23745 Posts
On November 05 2012 13:53 Sufficiency wrote: It's definitely an execution move in soloQ :D Or early game during the laning phase. | ||
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HeroHenry
United States1723 Posts
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
On November 05 2012 12:57 UniversalSnip wrote: I doubt it's as unrealistic as it seems. We think of a lot more things as being embedded in the design of the game than actually are. not to be a dota2 kiddie (b/c i've never even played the game) but introducing some sort of melee carry (or making it a viable role) would go great lengths far as the op bruiser item meta. having items that give stats in survivability and damage is hard to balance in the current meta of glass cannon, tank, etc. :/ | ||
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thenexusp
United States3721 Posts
On November 05 2012 14:04 HeroHenry wrote: Does anyone know if season 2 is ending Monday night or Tuesday night? I believe it ends whenever they get the next patch out, and patches usually happen late monday / early tuesday but if anything happens to delay the patch release season 2 end is delayed as well | ||
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gtrsrs
United States9109 Posts
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
On November 05 2012 13:57 onlywonderboy wrote: Or early game during the laning phase. Well in competitive play the players can usually coordinate well enough so Karthus can pre-emptively use it to minimize risks of retaliation. | ||
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onlywonderboy
United States23745 Posts
On November 05 2012 14:15 Sufficiency wrote: Well in competitive play the players can usually coordinate well enough so Karthus can pre-emptively use it to minimize risks of retaliation. There was at least once in Dallas where a Karthus picked up a kill after an ADC/support had barley survived a trade bot lane. All in all his ult is quite versatile. | ||
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