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The game just isn´t very fun when you get kha zix, rengar and diana (she isn´t that bad though) in every single game, so stupid. Been trying to pick up playing AD but I honestly don´t know what to do when there are 2-3 people on the enemy team that could just jump out and oneshot me.
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On September 30 2012 08:07 JackDino wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2012 08:01 Razhil wrote:On September 30 2012 07:50 wei2coolman wrote:On September 30 2012 07:49 TheYango wrote:
The nature of what people define as "assassin" is such that the kit is geared specifically toward solo kills--and sacrifices general teamfighting ability (in comparison to melees that bring more AoE, CC, or utility). A champ that's solo-kill oriented is naturally either blazingly OP, or incredibly snowbally--neither of which are sustainable for an archetype in competitive play. Proof, pre-gunblade nerf Akali. Shit was so fucking stupid. It's not for balance issue, outlaw, it also has to do with "funness". How fun is it to be an AD carry in the backline, then all of a sudden one guy jumps on you, 100-0's you in halfsecond, with absolutely no counterplay option on your part? Now multiply that by the number of games you've played as AD-C. It gets real unfun, real quick. This so much... If you start a game and see something like Talon, Akali, Rengar in the enemy team and you're the AD carry (and maybe, even worse, you've chosen to NOT pick a AD carry with a build-in escape, like Ashe), you know you won't have fun this game. But like NO fun at all. Like, if you start a game as talon or pantheon and you see the enemy AD is like ezreal, graves, tristana or corki you know you won't have any fun at all. Goddamn jumps.
wut, i'm just fine playing panth against any of those champs.
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On September 30 2012 07:53 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2012 07:49 OutlaW- wrote:On September 30 2012 07:46 TheYango wrote:On September 30 2012 07:32 OutlaW- wrote:
No way. I hope riot intends to change the meta a bit by releasing a good assassin. If they nerf him, bruiser/tanky meta gonna stayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
to be honest he has quite a few flaws
The thing is, in terms of competitive play, the usefulness of a melee who doesn't bring AoE teamfighting ability, and is explicitly not supposed to be a melee carry (e.g. designed to only be able to kill squishies) is just fairly limited unless they're blazingly op. This isn't a "metagame" issue, this is just the flaw in treating "assassin" as a proper role. And why? Because bruisers and tanky people are too strong in comparison. A 15k gold Cho at 30 min or a 15k gold khazix, cho gonna be 3x more useful almost no matter what. It's not just an issue of coordination. I would welcome a buff to assassins (who are rarely played anyways) like talon, akali, pantheon or a nerf to everyone tanky.. You're missing the point. You can't balance solo-kill based kits for competitive play because their balance is too binary. Either they can do their job and present too strong a threat because of it (even the worst case scenario of a suicide dive where an assassin trades themselves for an AD carry is worth it because then they're fighting a 4v4 without an AD carry), or they can't complete the kill and they're just a liability. There's not a middle ground because the typical assassin kit sacrifices CC/utility/AoE that conventional melees have (which allows even an under-farmed Cho'gath to maintain a teamfight presence), creating the "useless when behind, takes control of the game when ahead" gameplay that characterizes all assassins in the game, regardless of balance. Incidentally, every "assassin" kit that actually did have these CC/utility/AoE aspects to make them good teamfighters just end up not being considered assassins in the long run--see Diana.
How is Diana not an assassin? She is an example of what they are supposed to do: Burst a target, then leave or die.
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On September 30 2012 08:11 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2012 07:53 TheYango wrote:On September 30 2012 07:49 OutlaW- wrote:On September 30 2012 07:46 TheYango wrote:On September 30 2012 07:32 OutlaW- wrote:
No way. I hope riot intends to change the meta a bit by releasing a good assassin. If they nerf him, bruiser/tanky meta gonna stayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
to be honest he has quite a few flaws
The thing is, in terms of competitive play, the usefulness of a melee who doesn't bring AoE teamfighting ability, and is explicitly not supposed to be a melee carry (e.g. designed to only be able to kill squishies) is just fairly limited unless they're blazingly op. This isn't a "metagame" issue, this is just the flaw in treating "assassin" as a proper role. And why? Because bruisers and tanky people are too strong in comparison. A 15k gold Cho at 30 min or a 15k gold khazix, cho gonna be 3x more useful almost no matter what. It's not just an issue of coordination. I would welcome a buff to assassins (who are rarely played anyways) like talon, akali, pantheon or a nerf to everyone tanky.. You're missing the point. You can't balance solo-kill based kits for competitive play because their balance is too binary. Either they can do their job and present too strong a threat because of it (even the worst case scenario of a suicide dive where an assassin trades themselves for an AD carry is worth it because then they're fighting a 4v4 without an AD carry), or they can't complete the kill and they're just a liability. There's not a middle ground because the typical assassin kit sacrifices CC/utility/AoE that conventional melees have (which allows even an under-farmed Cho'gath to maintain a teamfight presence), creating the "useless when behind, takes control of the game when ahead" gameplay that characterizes all assassins in the game, regardless of balance. Incidentally, every "assassin" kit that actually did have these CC/utility/AoE aspects to make them good teamfighters just end up not being considered assassins in the long run--see Diana. How is Diana not an assassin? She is an example of what they are supposed to do: Burst a target, then leave or die.
Except she does decent AoE Damage, can tank with her shield, and CC an entire group of people by concentrating them in a single point.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 30 2012 08:11 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2012 07:53 TheYango wrote:On September 30 2012 07:49 OutlaW- wrote:On September 30 2012 07:46 TheYango wrote:On September 30 2012 07:32 OutlaW- wrote:
No way. I hope riot intends to change the meta a bit by releasing a good assassin. If they nerf him, bruiser/tanky meta gonna stayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
to be honest he has quite a few flaws
The thing is, in terms of competitive play, the usefulness of a melee who doesn't bring AoE teamfighting ability, and is explicitly not supposed to be a melee carry (e.g. designed to only be able to kill squishies) is just fairly limited unless they're blazingly op. This isn't a "metagame" issue, this is just the flaw in treating "assassin" as a proper role. And why? Because bruisers and tanky people are too strong in comparison. A 15k gold Cho at 30 min or a 15k gold khazix, cho gonna be 3x more useful almost no matter what. It's not just an issue of coordination. I would welcome a buff to assassins (who are rarely played anyways) like talon, akali, pantheon or a nerf to everyone tanky.. You're missing the point. You can't balance solo-kill based kits for competitive play because their balance is too binary. Either they can do their job and present too strong a threat because of it (even the worst case scenario of a suicide dive where an assassin trades themselves for an AD carry is worth it because then they're fighting a 4v4 without an AD carry), or they can't complete the kill and they're just a liability. There's not a middle ground because the typical assassin kit sacrifices CC/utility/AoE that conventional melees have (which allows even an under-farmed Cho'gath to maintain a teamfight presence), creating the "useless when behind, takes control of the game when ahead" gameplay that characterizes all assassins in the game, regardless of balance. Incidentally, every "assassin" kit that actually did have these CC/utility/AoE aspects to make them good teamfighters just end up not being considered assassins in the long run--see Diana. How is Diana not an assassin? She is an example of what they are supposed to do: Burst a target, then leave or die.
Because in a lot of cases that's not what she does in a teamfight--her setup/AoE damage often (arguably usually) play a much larger part in her teamfight effectiveness than bursting down 1 guy.
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On September 30 2012 08:11 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2012 07:53 TheYango wrote:On September 30 2012 07:49 OutlaW- wrote:On September 30 2012 07:46 TheYango wrote:On September 30 2012 07:32 OutlaW- wrote:
No way. I hope riot intends to change the meta a bit by releasing a good assassin. If they nerf him, bruiser/tanky meta gonna stayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
to be honest he has quite a few flaws
The thing is, in terms of competitive play, the usefulness of a melee who doesn't bring AoE teamfighting ability, and is explicitly not supposed to be a melee carry (e.g. designed to only be able to kill squishies) is just fairly limited unless they're blazingly op. This isn't a "metagame" issue, this is just the flaw in treating "assassin" as a proper role. And why? Because bruisers and tanky people are too strong in comparison. A 15k gold Cho at 30 min or a 15k gold khazix, cho gonna be 3x more useful almost no matter what. It's not just an issue of coordination. I would welcome a buff to assassins (who are rarely played anyways) like talon, akali, pantheon or a nerf to everyone tanky.. You're missing the point. You can't balance solo-kill based kits for competitive play because their balance is too binary. Either they can do their job and present too strong a threat because of it (even the worst case scenario of a suicide dive where an assassin trades themselves for an AD carry is worth it because then they're fighting a 4v4 without an AD carry), or they can't complete the kill and they're just a liability. There's not a middle ground because the typical assassin kit sacrifices CC/utility/AoE that conventional melees have (which allows even an under-farmed Cho'gath to maintain a teamfight presence), creating the "useless when behind, takes control of the game when ahead" gameplay that characterizes all assassins in the game, regardless of balance. Incidentally, every "assassin" kit that actually did have these CC/utility/AoE aspects to make them good teamfighters just end up not being considered assassins in the long run--see Diana. How is Diana not an assassin? She is an example of what they are supposed to do: Burst a target, then leave or die.
Well she distinctly lacks an escape. Unless her R is still up in which case she can jump to a minion. Other than that I fail to see how she's different from akali,kat, or talon.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 30 2012 08:14 obesechicken13 wrote:
Well she distinctly lacks an escape. Unless her R is still up in which case she can jump to a minion. Other than that I fail to see how she's different from akali,kat, or talon.
Kat's arguably not an assassin either (seeing as she has exactly 1 single-target ability in her kit and the rest of her damage-dealing ability is based around doing AoE damage)--she's just naturally snowbally because of how Voracity works.
Talon and Akali don't bring the same natural survivability/utility that Diana does that allows her to be useful when she's doing something other than diving their carry.
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On September 30 2012 08:13 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2012 08:11 cLutZ wrote:On September 30 2012 07:53 TheYango wrote:On September 30 2012 07:49 OutlaW- wrote:On September 30 2012 07:46 TheYango wrote:On September 30 2012 07:32 OutlaW- wrote:
No way. I hope riot intends to change the meta a bit by releasing a good assassin. If they nerf him, bruiser/tanky meta gonna stayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
to be honest he has quite a few flaws
The thing is, in terms of competitive play, the usefulness of a melee who doesn't bring AoE teamfighting ability, and is explicitly not supposed to be a melee carry (e.g. designed to only be able to kill squishies) is just fairly limited unless they're blazingly op. This isn't a "metagame" issue, this is just the flaw in treating "assassin" as a proper role. And why? Because bruisers and tanky people are too strong in comparison. A 15k gold Cho at 30 min or a 15k gold khazix, cho gonna be 3x more useful almost no matter what. It's not just an issue of coordination. I would welcome a buff to assassins (who are rarely played anyways) like talon, akali, pantheon or a nerf to everyone tanky.. You're missing the point. You can't balance solo-kill based kits for competitive play because their balance is too binary. Either they can do their job and present too strong a threat because of it (even the worst case scenario of a suicide dive where an assassin trades themselves for an AD carry is worth it because then they're fighting a 4v4 without an AD carry), or they can't complete the kill and they're just a liability. There's not a middle ground because the typical assassin kit sacrifices CC/utility/AoE that conventional melees have (which allows even an under-farmed Cho'gath to maintain a teamfight presence), creating the "useless when behind, takes control of the game when ahead" gameplay that characterizes all assassins in the game, regardless of balance. Incidentally, every "assassin" kit that actually did have these CC/utility/AoE aspects to make them good teamfighters just end up not being considered assassins in the long run--see Diana. How is Diana not an assassin? She is an example of what they are supposed to do: Burst a target, then leave or die. Because in a lot of cases that's not what she does in a teamfight--her setup/AoE damage often (arguably usually) play a much larger part in her teamfight effectiveness than bursting down 1 guy.
Well then we are just haggling over price. Rake and Talon Ult also do AOE, he has a silence. They are both pretty all-in if they want to do max damage to a target, but can use ult to "escape" while saccing damage by doing that.
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On September 30 2012 08:22 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2012 08:14 obesechicken13 wrote:On September 30 2012 08:11 cLutZ wrote:On September 30 2012 07:53 TheYango wrote:On September 30 2012 07:49 OutlaW- wrote:On September 30 2012 07:46 TheYango wrote:On September 30 2012 07:32 OutlaW- wrote:
No way. I hope riot intends to change the meta a bit by releasing a good assassin. If they nerf him, bruiser/tanky meta gonna stayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
to be honest he has quite a few flaws
The thing is, in terms of competitive play, the usefulness of a melee who doesn't bring AoE teamfighting ability, and is explicitly not supposed to be a melee carry (e.g. designed to only be able to kill squishies) is just fairly limited unless they're blazingly op. This isn't a "metagame" issue, this is just the flaw in treating "assassin" as a proper role. And why? Because bruisers and tanky people are too strong in comparison. A 15k gold Cho at 30 min or a 15k gold khazix, cho gonna be 3x more useful almost no matter what. It's not just an issue of coordination. I would welcome a buff to assassins (who are rarely played anyways) like talon, akali, pantheon or a nerf to everyone tanky.. You're missing the point. You can't balance solo-kill based kits for competitive play because their balance is too binary. Either they can do their job and present too strong a threat because of it (even the worst case scenario of a suicide dive where an assassin trades themselves for an AD carry is worth it because then they're fighting a 4v4 without an AD carry), or they can't complete the kill and they're just a liability. There's not a middle ground because the typical assassin kit sacrifices CC/utility/AoE that conventional melees have (which allows even an under-farmed Cho'gath to maintain a teamfight presence), creating the "useless when behind, takes control of the game when ahead" gameplay that characterizes all assassins in the game, regardless of balance. Incidentally, every "assassin" kit that actually did have these CC/utility/AoE aspects to make them good teamfighters just end up not being considered assassins in the long run--see Diana. How is Diana not an assassin? She is an example of what they are supposed to do: Burst a target, then leave or die. Well she distinctly lacks an escape. Unless her R is still up in which case she can jump to a minion. Other than that I fail to see how she's different from akali,kat, or talon. She also damn good in a teamfight and has a shield with some of the highest base tank stats in the game? Thats why she not an assassin Imo.
Aren't u just assigning the tag "assassin" to champs that suck only then?
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On September 30 2012 08:14 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2012 08:11 cLutZ wrote:On September 30 2012 07:53 TheYango wrote:On September 30 2012 07:49 OutlaW- wrote:On September 30 2012 07:46 TheYango wrote:On September 30 2012 07:32 OutlaW- wrote:
No way. I hope riot intends to change the meta a bit by releasing a good assassin. If they nerf him, bruiser/tanky meta gonna stayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
to be honest he has quite a few flaws
The thing is, in terms of competitive play, the usefulness of a melee who doesn't bring AoE teamfighting ability, and is explicitly not supposed to be a melee carry (e.g. designed to only be able to kill squishies) is just fairly limited unless they're blazingly op. This isn't a "metagame" issue, this is just the flaw in treating "assassin" as a proper role. And why? Because bruisers and tanky people are too strong in comparison. A 15k gold Cho at 30 min or a 15k gold khazix, cho gonna be 3x more useful almost no matter what. It's not just an issue of coordination. I would welcome a buff to assassins (who are rarely played anyways) like talon, akali, pantheon or a nerf to everyone tanky.. You're missing the point. You can't balance solo-kill based kits for competitive play because their balance is too binary. Either they can do their job and present too strong a threat because of it (even the worst case scenario of a suicide dive where an assassin trades themselves for an AD carry is worth it because then they're fighting a 4v4 without an AD carry), or they can't complete the kill and they're just a liability. There's not a middle ground because the typical assassin kit sacrifices CC/utility/AoE that conventional melees have (which allows even an under-farmed Cho'gath to maintain a teamfight presence), creating the "useless when behind, takes control of the game when ahead" gameplay that characterizes all assassins in the game, regardless of balance. Incidentally, every "assassin" kit that actually did have these CC/utility/AoE aspects to make them good teamfighters just end up not being considered assassins in the long run--see Diana. How is Diana not an assassin? She is an example of what they are supposed to do: Burst a target, then leave or die. Well she distinctly lacks an escape. Unless her R is still up in which case she can jump to a minion. Other than that I fail to see how she's different from akali,kat, or talon.
She also damn good in a teamfight and has a shield with some of the highest base tank stats in the game? Thats why she not an assassin Imo.
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You're trying to compare the play style of a single target silence,aoe dmg, and small aoe slow, over a hard aoe CC that clumps people together? that also combos with a hard aoe damaging ability that gives a shield?
Diana's utility and aoe damage >>> Talon's utility and aoe damage.
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Diana is 100% an assassin. I don't know why this is being disputed.
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United States47024 Posts
The defining characteristic of the "assassins" in the game is that they sacrifice teamfight power through baseline survivability and utility for diving power/single target damage, when compared to the other melees ("bruisers" or "tanks" as they are often classified, though I don't think either term is terribly useful).
Diana has high baseline survivability and high teamfight utility. Much closer to those "bruisers" and "tanks" than the underplayed assassins.
Like, if we're going to call Diana an assassin, Jax and Irelia (which everyone pretty stereotypically calls bruisers) are probably much closer to whatever metric you'd call Diana an assassin by. Seeing as they have even less AoE/utility/teamfight power, similar baseline survivability, and more single-target damage oriented kits.
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wow just watched that snoopeh pro player pick favorite champion and snoopeh's accent is ADORABLE
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it's so adorablethat riot had to put subtitles for him during the riot invitational which is kinda facepalm considering he's a native english speaker.
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Using super broad terms to defines things is generally a bad idea. All it does it oversimplify complex situations which in turn causes some very bad reasoning
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In fairness some areas of scotland you literally cannot understand what they're talking about. And I mean without the accent. When I was a kid I had a scottish cartoon book and it was barely comprehensible. It's probably like learning spainish and then going to south america somewhere.
Snoopeh just has an accent, though.
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On September 30 2012 08:29 AsnSensation wrote:
it's so adorablethat riot had to put subtitles for him during the riot invitational which is kinda facepalm considering he's a native english speaker.
I like to think it's for people who don't speak English fluently and therefore struggle with non-standard pronunciations.
But I know it probably isn't.
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On September 30 2012 08:31 Slayer91 wrote:
In fairness some areas of scotland you literally cannot understand what they're talking about. And I mean without the accent. When I was a kid I had a scottish cartoon book and it was barely comprehensible. It's probably like learning spainish and then going to south america somewhere.
Snoopeh just has an accent, though.
Heh this just reminded me of that old Robin Williams stand up routine on golf.
"A linguistic adventure-go drinking with a Scotsman."
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On September 30 2012 08:34 TheKefka wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2012 08:31 Slayer91 wrote:
In fairness some areas of scotland you literally cannot understand what they're talking about. And I mean without the accent. When I was a kid I had a scottish cartoon book and it was barely comprehensible. It's probably like learning spainish and then going to south america somewhere.
Snoopeh just has an accent, though. Heh this just reminded me of that old Robin Williams stand up routine on golf. "A linguistic adventure-go drinking with a Scotsman."
I like Robin Williams but I can't stand his stand up =(
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Rengar top, Kha'Zix jungle and AD Teemo in that game. Yeah, stealth so fun.
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EPT
