On August 15 2012 18:37 Bladeorade wrote: Yay people shitting on the kayle trap buff. Dont build her ap! Riot still attached to her being hybrid dont fall for it
I don't understand why Riot is trying to make hybrid work when their history is full of them killing hybrid champs/itemization.
Hybrid champs simply won't work unless you make hybrid items insanely cost effective or champs ridiculously powerful. Case in point: old gunblade and old Kayle passive. I'm sure hybrid is balance-able, but it'd be really tricky to get the numbers right.
Xyph made recent comments indicating that he understands that hybrids suck right now due more to itemization than anything else. Riot's probably just trying to make it feel slightly better until then.
out of curiosity, how much of the hybrid/AP kayle hate is based on theory and how much on people who've played a lot of games with it and found it crap? Because I think a lot of the stuff you get from hybrid items, particularly nashors, is more contextual. I certainly find that CDR is severely under-rated in theory, whereas in practice the difference 30-40% CDR makes is incredible purely on a psychological level, it's much easier to bait, kite and turn on people who are underestimating your cooldowns I imagine even quite skilled players can get caught out by something coming up 20% faster than they anticipated, perhaps even more so since they ARE anticipating it and trying to abuse it. Same with the mana regen, it's not really that quantifiable but the amount of times I've seen a kayle drop because she just goes oom midfight just when she needs that critical ult or slow is just silly.
I'm not advocating hybrid kayle as a full build, but I do wonder if people are undervaluing starting with one of the hybrid items (nashors/gunblade/rageblade) rather than a traditional inf-edge start and capitalising on the incidental benefits those items bring to make the endless top laning phase more annoying for your opponent or easier for you. (note I still think a few dorans on her is pretty mandatory top lane at least)
Hybrid is essentially inferior to sticking to either AD or AP due to lack of itemization and abilities that take full advantage of hybrid stats. In terms of itemization, due to the way AD and AP scale off similar items (AD off of crit/aspd and AP off of dcap) and the way penetration tends to be itemized, it's much more cost efficient to go either AD or AP route rather than both. The only truly hybrid items are often quite expensive and offer minimal benefit to champs outside a select pool. For example, Gunblade is really good, but it's also 3.6k for not much of a power boost. Few champions besides Jax actually want Gunblade because a good amount of why you get it is due to the lifesteal+spellvamp combo. Not many champs can use that effectively. Kayle, for example, benefits much much more from pure lifesteal since her only spell damage is either aoe (reduced spellvamp) or relatively long cooldown (her Q). Nashor's Tooth is bad because most champs don't need aspd, cdr, and/or AP all in one item. The ones that do can often get those stats in better combinations via other itemization options. While it's a cost effective item overall, the item tries to fit too many stats into one thing and ends up making it overpriced and not efficient relative to other options.
In terms of abilities, hybrid abilities often favor stacking either AD or AP depending on what you're looking for. This is mostly compounded by the itemization problem. True hybrid champions were only viable almost a year ago in the form of old Kayle and Jax. It's also arguable that they were only viable due to how brokenly cost efficient Gunblade was and how incredibly overpowered their passives were. Even then, when people played 'em they usually leaned towards AD or AP and really only got Gunblade and maybe Rageblade as their hybrid itemization.
The problem with making hybrid champs/items work is that in order to make it competitively viable relative to pure AD/AP build paths, the items or skills themselves have to offer comparable cost/resource efficiency. What ends up happening however, is that those items/abilities are so damn efficient that they end up being broken since building pure AD/AP and takin advantage of multiplicative scaling is more cost efficient (what's happenin to Kayle now), or champs that don't really even want hybrid stats build hybrid items since they're so efficient (old Gunblade).
I'll do a translation for the ability's if someone is interested.
Passive: Abilities on maximun level gain bonus effects: Dark Sphere: Deals 20% bonus damage against Champions. Willpower : Knock an enemy in the air for a short time. Dispersing of the Weak: Works on a 50% wider area.
Q:Dark Sphere 40 mana,cooldown:4,9 seconds. Summons a Dark Sphere that does 70(+16) magic damage. The spear remains in the spot where it was cast for 8 seconds and can be manipulated by Syndra's other ability's.
W:Strength of will 60 mana,cooldown:11.5 seconds. First activation:Grabs a dark sphere or an enemy minion. Second activation:Throws the sphere or the minion.Enemy's that were hit get damaged by 80(+19) magic damage and are slowed for 25% for 2 seconds.
E:Scatter the weak 50 mana,cooldown:13.4 seconds. Deals 60(+13) magic damage and throws back enemys and dark spheres. Thrown back spheres stun enemy's they collide with for 1.5 seconds.
R:Unchained might 100 mana,cooldown: 96 seconds. Uses all of Syndra's cataclysmic might and all of the dark spheres to deal 70(+9) magic damage per sphere(deals at least 210 magic damage) to a single enemy champion.
Ult (rank 1): She uses all her Spheres to do 70 (+9) damage per sphere (minimum 210 (+28) damage) to an enemy champion. 100 mana, 100 sec base CD (shows 96 sec in video because of masteries)
Ult probably means the 3 spheres that orbit around her, not the ones she throws on the ground. I guess you can lose them somehow, from how the ult is worded. Has anybody spotted what the passive does?
€: I watched closely when he ulted Corki bot: The ult takes the 3 spheres around her AND the one lying on the ground. Makes sense since the minimum damage is 3x sphere damage, so it just always does 3x damage, if you have more spheres around, it does more. So you probably CAN'T lose the 3 small spheres around you, and passive will do something else.
No I can't find the passive. I'm guessing her passive spawns Vasalls or something like that. One thing I'm confused by her W says that It can take and throw an opponent's Vasall.
On August 15 2012 21:34 TheKefka wrote: No I can't find the passive. I'm guessing her passive spawns Vasalls or something like that. One thing I'm confused by her W says that It can take and throw an opponent's Vasall.
On August 15 2012 21:34 TheKefka wrote: No I can't find the passive. I'm guessing her passive spawns Vasalls or something like that. One thing I'm confused by her W says that It can take and throw an opponent's Vasall.
vasall = minion in German.
AAAAAHHHH LOL. You live and you learn,I hope my translation is accurate now,should be.
Another small note: Spheres drop to the ground approx. where the enemy champ is during the ult - if he moves, they spread out pretty well because they hit in succession, not at the same time. So R -> E could make for a really good teamfight combo, pretty good chance to stun everybody.
On August 15 2012 21:43 Dandel Ion wrote: Another small note: Spheres drop to the ground approx. where the enemy champ is during the ult - if he moves, they spread out pretty well because they hit in succession, not at the same time. So R -> E could make for a really good teamfight combo, pretty good chance to stun everybody.
It also shoves enemies away a bit doesn't it?
Oh and that creep throw sounds a bit like Tiny from Dota2. Very fun mechanic, though I'm curious as to how it's going to work (IE when you throw your own creep, does it die? Can you throw your own creeps into their tower to basically deny cs? etc).
EPT
