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Same rules apply, per usual. Please use the appropriate threads (QQ, Brag, Champion, etc) whenever appropriate. Keep the resident Banling content.
Thanks. Happy Gaming. |
Because GD has so many interesting topics for me to touch on today, you get this post. =P
On March 12 2012 10:20 Bwaaaa wrote:
Could we please have a discussion of 3 dorans vs 2 dorans + vamp scepter. I have seen qtipie get them every game but I haven't seen any math on the subject.
Unless I'm behind the opposing carry and forced into a standup fight, the 9% more lifesteal is far more useful and is 0 extra cost later when making BT.
On March 12 2012 08:58 iCanada wrote:Yeah, if it wasn't for silly itemization late game I'd buy Brutalizer almost every game on Riven. AS/MS so useless on her.
Well, Reds have been talking about and AD Caster item(codenamed BFF Sword) for a while now and that it has been in testing. Morello also said recently that he wants to "chew up" atma's but they want items to put in in it's place to fill the void in fighter items.
On March 12 2012 08:01 skrzmark wrote:
I hope the next champ is an ap champ that has a passive that lets his/her spells crit.
I know there WAS an item that allowed spells to crit a long time ago(was it beta?) but got scrapped. Too stronk.
On March 12 2012 10:40 0123456789 wrote:
Crit cloak, pickaxe into IE stronger than BF into pickaxe into IE. Try to prioritize the crit cloak, it provides you with crit, and the amount of dmg increase you get from it is too strong in the laning phase.
This is a very interesting notion that I will have to look into. Mmh, yes.
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dorans blades are still some of the most cost efficient items out there, i have no problem picking more than 2 up and selling them later
but vamp scepter scales much better with additional damage items, so unless you are being forced away from minions vamps are usually fine for stagnating the lane
additional dorans are better for greater strength in lane (if you are being the aggressor and want some additional buffer HP and AD to win trades more convincingly) - essentially they give the benefits of wriggles without gimping yourself a BF sword behind the midgame.
tldr: close lanes where minions are being hit - vamp
dominating lane - your choice of vamp or dorans
hard losing lane - if they can push to tower without real threat of a gank (good wards and low mobility jungler etc.) then as many dblades you need for surviving / lasthitting at tower, and vamp if tower is down so you can stagnate and tank waves as needed, if they push the tower and go elsewhere you can also just save for BF item as it sounds like you're losing pretty hard
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Hmm, I dont know wether to post the ranked win that I just got that snapped my 5 game losing streak in the brag thread, or does the fact that it made me 2 for 10 in my last 10 ranked games push it to the QQ thread.
Im so happy so it just seems WRONG to post it in qq.
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On March 12 2012 10:20 Bwaaaa wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 09:47 wei2coolman wrote:
Watching ChaoX play, 3 dorans blade seems so fucking excessive. Could we please have a discussion of 3 dorans vs 2 dorans + vamp scepter. I have seen qtipie get them every game but I haven't seen any math on the subject.
3 Dblades is really strong. If you're even in lane or ahead 3 Dblades is significantly stronger than 2 Dblades + vamp imo. I only go 2 Dblade -> vamp if I'm losing lane and want to just safely farm without getting harassed down to too low HP.
Imo, the discussion shouldn't be 2 Dblade + vamp versus 3 Dblade it should be 3 Dblade vs Wriggle's. 'Cause I really am starting to like Wriggle's on AD carries in lieu of getting any Dblades. From page 110 because I don't feel like typing my thoughts again:
On March 12 2012 04:48 overt wrote:
So I'm starting to really like opening Wriggle's on AD carries more often now. It definitely has it's disadvantages to Doran's, like you're getting less AD from Wriggle's than 3 Dblade and Wriggle's is more expensive and I feel like 300 HP adds more general survivability than 30 armor but Wriggle's still has a lot going for it. Like your lane sustain is pretty fantastic, the free ward is helpful, and buff stealing is incredibly fun. Not to mention if I go Wriggle's first I can just skip BT or a vamp scepter and rush the holy trinity of AD carry, IE/PD/LW. It's like 175 more gold to go Wriggle's instead of 3 Dblade and honestly the tradeoffs between the two are pretty damn close.
By the way, does anyone know what happened or an ETA on the planned role specific threads?
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India1783 Posts
So in what scenarios or for what champions is sunfire a decent item? I never build sunfire ever but yesterday i was watching the IEM vods and I saw sunfire built on shen couple of times.
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On March 12 2012 12:42 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote:
So in what scenarios or for what champions is sunfire a decent item? I never build sunfire ever but yesterday i was watching the IEM vods and I saw sunfire built on shen couple of times.
As an item, in a vacuum, its great.
The problem is that Riot overnerfed the SHIT out of it so that the upgrade is REALLY expensive for what you get. Some people (mogwai) HATE when items work like that. I mind less, so I think its fine.
The reason that Shen grabs it is because he has a slow push, but is a splitpusher. So you fix that with a passive aoe.
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United States47024 Posts
As actual in-fight DPS, the sunfire burn is pretty minimal. The major use for it is to give tanky champs the ability to buy farming power on an otherwise purely survivability item. Most of said champs don't actually lack farming power to begin with, but Shen is one of the few exceptions.
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On March 12 2012 11:20 Gahlo wrote:Because GD has so many interesting topics for me to touch on today, you get this post. =P Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 10:20 Bwaaaa wrote:
Could we please have a discussion of 3 dorans vs 2 dorans + vamp scepter. I have seen qtipie get them every game but I haven't seen any math on the subject. Unless I'm behind the opposing carry and forced into a standup fight, the 9% more lifesteal is far more useful and is 0 extra cost later when making BT. Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 08:58 iCanada wrote:Yeah, if it wasn't for silly itemization late game I'd buy Brutalizer almost every game on Riven. AS/MS so useless on her. Well, Reds have been talking about and AD Caster item(codenamed BFF Sword) for a while now and that it has been in testing. Morello also said recently that he wants to "chew up" atma's but they want items to put in in it's place to fill the void in fighter items. Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 08:01 skrzmark wrote:
I hope the next champ is an ap champ that has a passive that lets his/her spells crit. I know there WAS an item that allowed spells to crit a long time ago(was it beta?) but got scrapped. Too stronk. Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 10:40 0123456789 wrote:
Crit cloak, pickaxe into IE stronger than BF into pickaxe into IE. Try to prioritize the crit cloak, it provides you with crit, and the amount of dmg increase you get from it is too strong in the laning phase. This is a very interesting notion that I will have to look into. Mmh, yes.
I think I agree with this post regarding the 3 dorans. However after trying phage, I find that it allows you to turn a winning lane into a bigger winning lane much more easily. I play tristana so that might be why, but I find that since you have a sure fire slow on your jump, the phage lets you slow the target indefinitely to get more kills.
As for someone telling me to try phage on WW, I think I'll pass. I like slow, but unless I'm going for triforce, I think bilgewater is better for ganks, and for doing what warwick does best. I think warwicks a fine jungler now, I realized that most junglers just are way behind in the new jungle by watching my replays.
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On March 12 2012 12:57 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 11:20 Gahlo wrote:Because GD has so many interesting topics for me to touch on today, you get this post. =P On March 12 2012 10:20 Bwaaaa wrote:
Could we please have a discussion of 3 dorans vs 2 dorans + vamp scepter. I have seen qtipie get them every game but I haven't seen any math on the subject. Unless I'm behind the opposing carry and forced into a standup fight, the 9% more lifesteal is far more useful and is 0 extra cost later when making BT. On March 12 2012 08:58 iCanada wrote:Yeah, if it wasn't for silly itemization late game I'd buy Brutalizer almost every game on Riven. AS/MS so useless on her. Well, Reds have been talking about and AD Caster item(codenamed BFF Sword) for a while now and that it has been in testing. Morello also said recently that he wants to "chew up" atma's but they want items to put in in it's place to fill the void in fighter items. On March 12 2012 08:01 skrzmark wrote:
I hope the next champ is an ap champ that has a passive that lets his/her spells crit. I know there WAS an item that allowed spells to crit a long time ago(was it beta?) but got scrapped. Too stronk. On March 12 2012 10:40 0123456789 wrote:
Crit cloak, pickaxe into IE stronger than BF into pickaxe into IE. Try to prioritize the crit cloak, it provides you with crit, and the amount of dmg increase you get from it is too strong in the laning phase. This is a very interesting notion that I will have to look into. Mmh, yes. I think I agree with this post regarding the 3 dorans. However after trying phage, I find that it allows you to turn a winning lane into a bigger winning lane much more easily. I play tristana so that might be why, but I find that since you have a sure fire slow on your jump, the phage lets you slow the target indefinitely to get more kills. As for someone telling me to try phage on WW, I think I'll pass. I like slow, but unless I'm going for triforce, I think bilgewater is better for ganks, and for doing what warwick does best. I think warwicks a fine jungler now, I realized that most junglers just are way behind in the new jungle by watching my replays.
It was me that said get the phage. Bilge vs Phage for ganks is only part of the equation. Triforce WW is beast mode and you'll never ever ever ever ever build a Gunblade on him so really what you're doing is getting a piece that you'll keep all game that is pretty damn good on its own (phage) instead of an item that's gonna slow your core by 1300 gold and occupy a slot.
I think Bilge is a great item and I wish it built into some other things. I've thought a Bilge/Bruta item would be slick for a while.
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India1783 Posts
On March 12 2012 12:48 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 12:42 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote:
So in what scenarios or for what champions is sunfire a decent item? I never build sunfire ever but yesterday i was watching the IEM vods and I saw sunfire built on shen couple of times. As an item, in a vacuum, its great. The problem is that Riot overnerfed the SHIT out of it so that the upgrade is REALLY expensive for what you get. Some people (mogwai) HATE when items work like that. I mind less, so I think its fine. The reason that Shen grabs it is because he has a slow push, but is a splitpusher. So you fix that with a passive aoe.
Well my core is usually like mercs, randuin's and wits on shen. I dunno, never really had a problem farming considering I'm always sidepushing with him and usually end up with the most CS (hue). I just feel beyond midgame it just feels like a waste of a slot really, I'd rather have randuin's for tankiness or atmas if I want damage.
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hextech gunblade cost too much for its worth which is why I think hybrids are dead at the moment.
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On March 12 2012 13:13 skrzmark wrote:
hextech gunblade cost too much for its worth which is why I think hybrids are dead at the moment.
I remember reading some calculations stating gunblade was the most gold efficient non-stacking item ever before the revolver/wota/gunblade nerfs. It may have been overnerfed because people complain about spell vamp a lot, but It definitely was strong even compared to other spell vamp items when akali was fotm.
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Hybrid builds were never REALLY viable, even with Jax and Akali. It was just that gunblade was BEYOND broken by every measure you can think of.
Akali was always more interested in AP, and only really went Gunblade for the vamp. Everything else she did was specced towards Ap- Rylais, Dcap, Lichbane.
Jax was just, well, Jax. Its hard to use him as an example of a hybrid champion because the way he worked was just so fundamentally different from every other champion in the game. But even then, if there was an ad item that gave both types of vamp he would have gone that.
Kayle was really the only other hybrid that people went, only right before the remake everyone was starting to figure out that pure ad was the way to go on her.
The main problem with hybrid builds is that you need a really really awkward kit to pull it off. Unless you were Jax, its always better to just spec one type of damage because everything is going to scale of of that- a deathcap doesnt give you bonus ad from a bf sword, and crit doesnt make your ap hit harder.
So we ended up with gunblade as core simply because of the how stupid an item it was, not because it was the key of hybrid builds.
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On March 12 2012 13:18 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 13:13 skrzmark wrote:
hextech gunblade cost too much for its worth which is why I think hybrids are dead at the moment. I remember reading some calculations stating gunblade was the most gold efficient non-stacking item ever before the revolver/wota/gunblade nerfs. It may have been overnerfed because people complain about spell vamp a lot, but It definitely was strong even compared to other spell vamp items when akali was fotm.
I was pretty sure that Trinity has been the most gold efficient single damage item in the game for like the past year or more. I could be wrong though but I'm pretty sure Trinity is the most gold efficient.
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United States47024 Posts
On March 12 2012 13:32 Two_DoWn wrote:
So we ended up with gunblade as core simply because of the how stupid an item it was, not because it was the key of hybrid builds.
I mean, that's the whole basis of hybrid as a concept. How do you even design a kit that functions better when you split your itemization 50/50 between AP and AD? The only reason hybrid kits worked was on the basis that hybrid items had to be significantly more cost-effective than their non-hybrid counterparts.
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no mordekaiser love? he used the broken gunblade the best. you could 1v3 or 1v4 after getting it if you were just a bit fed.
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But there's more interesting ways for a Hybrid kit to play off itself, rather than just giving them ridiculously cost-effective item (Seriously, the AD and AP ALONE almost justified the cost).
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On March 12 2012 13:40 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 13:32 Two_DoWn wrote:
So we ended up with gunblade as core simply because of the how stupid an item it was, not because it was the key of hybrid builds. I mean, that's the whole basis of hybrid as a concept. How do you even design a kit that functions better when you split your itemization 50/50 between AP and AD? The only reason hybrid kits worked was on the basis that hybrid items had to be significantly more cost-effective than their non-hybrid counterparts.
My argument was more that there HASNT ever been a single hybrid build- either in kit or itemization. Akali was AP. Kayle was better off as AD. Jax was the only one where you COULD build a shit ton of different items and have it work, but that was just because his passive and scaling was so broken that you could do just that- build whatever the fuck you wanted and be fine. Building straight ad or straight ap was going to do more damage the more items you got than going for a gunblade- but the vamp and cost effectiveness of gunblade was why you got it.
Gunblade was never picked up because you wanted a hybrid build. It was picked up because of how stupidly cost effective it was. You didnt follow up gunblade by getting a deathcap and then an IE.
Realistically, there never has been a champion who uses a hybrid build. It was just characters grabbing gunblade then building the rest of their items in a linear path- ap for akali, tanky ap for jax. That isnt hybrid- thats grabing a borked item because they auto things and like ap, then going ahead and getting more ap.
So basically what im trying to say is that hybrid ISNT a concept. You really cant have a kit that splits itemization (Hi fizz) because it doesnt work, especially when you consider all the champions who get ad scaling now. Gunblade and hybrid champions are just a relic of something that Riot tried to do and failed miserably.
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Random Ignite/Grevious Wounds suggestion. I feel that the power curve on those effects are wonky; they completely hose a few champions (Mundo, Swain, Roka to an extent, etc.) and don't really do much on others. Following that, they make huge healing effects rather binary; either you Ignite the Mundo/Swain and he's a sitting duck (sorta), or you don't and he doesn't die. What if they instead prevented a flat amount of heal for x seconds, rather than a flat 50% reduction on everything? It'd still be useful against healers, but it wouldn't completely hose them if they got ignited. On the flip-side, it'd also give flexibility for various levels of "anti-sustain" like "Prevent 30 health of regen in the next 10 seconds". Not saying that'd necessarily be a good ability, but it opens up the design space.
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On March 12 2012 13:40 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 13:32 Two_DoWn wrote:
So we ended up with gunblade as core simply because of the how stupid an item it was, not because it was the key of hybrid builds. I mean, that's the whole basis of hybrid as a concept. How do you even design a kit that functions better when you split your itemization 50/50 between AP and AD? The only reason hybrid kits worked was on the basis that hybrid items had to be significantly more cost-effective than their non-hybrid counterparts.
you could make a champ with a passive that gives more as based off there ap and more cdr based of their ad or other similar stuff.
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EPT
