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United States47024 Posts
On January 13 2012 01:31 Alaric wrote:Am I doing it wrong if DC is the first item I ditch when I need to make a choice because I prioritize utility?  (e.g. if I have boots-RoA-need to carry wards and would usually get Zhonya/WotA/DC/Void staff, I'll ditch the DC in favor of the other 3.)
Obviously it's situational, based on how badly each of those 4 items are necessary. Ditch Hourglass if the active/armor aren't that useful. Ditch WotA if not enough other team members benefit greatly from it. Ditch Void if they don't have enough MR for it to make a difference.
The problem is that is that Deathcap homogenizes AP caster itemization in terms of buying straight-up damage. Before you had different itemization, as well as different gameplay revolving around each itemization option. Now, if you just want damage, you get Deathcap because it's just better in the majority of cases even when compared to those niche AP items tailored to specific kits. How often do you see people buy AA Staff, DFG, or Lichbane anymore?
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On January 13 2012 01:41 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 01:31 Alaric wrote:Am I doing it wrong if DC is the first item I ditch when I need to make a choice because I prioritize utility? (e.g. if I have boots-RoA-need to carry wards and would usually get Zhonya/WotA/DC/Void staff, I'll ditch the DC in favor of the other 3.) Obviously it's situational, based on how badly each of those 4 items are necessary. Ditch Hourglass if the active/armor aren't that useful. Ditch WotA if not enough other team members benefit greatly from it. Ditch Void if they don't have enough MR for it to make a difference. The problem is that is that Deathcap homogenizes AP caster itemization in terms of buying straight-up damage. Before you had different itemization, as well as different gameplay revolving around each itemization option. Now, if you just want damage, you get Deathcap because it's just better in the majority of cases even when compared to those niche AP items tailored to specific kits. How often do you see people buy AA Staff, DFG, or Lichbane anymore?
They never bought it before. Thats why they tried to split the items. Hell, there is more diversification NOW than there was pre split.
And dont use lichbane as an example of an ap item. By design its a shitty ass item exepting 3 champs in the entire game.
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i cant see a downside to lichbane i cant believe more people dont get it. adding 700 dmg to your auto attack, is like a whole extra spell, how is it shitty?
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On January 13 2012 01:11 Two_DoWn wrote:
If that is the actual kit, she is gonna be one hell of a good jungle.
Yeah, wow. AoE damage for clearing camps, great ganks with 10% continuous slow from passive, gap closer applying passive which can be converted to permafrost for a harder slow, 2 second stun...
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United States47024 Posts
On January 13 2012 01:36 Two_DoWn wrote:
Normally you make sense Yango, but Im not sure what you are talking about here. It didnt matter that Zring took another ap item to become "cost effecient" because back then everyone ran ROA->Zhonyas and already had enough ap to make it worthwhile anyway.
Not true. Zhonya's was 6th item luxury for most champs that had significantly better choices. For example, Anivia/Kassadin got AA Staff, Annie got DFG, and TF rushed Lichbane. Obviously Kennen and Morgana got ZRing because they loved the active.
They needed to put an alternative in for guys that got Zhonya's because there was no better item geared toward them (e.g. Sion got it, despite not really having any great synergy with the active). But instead they ended up creating a damage-focused AP item that was better than pretty much everything for pretty much everybody.
On January 13 2012 01:43 Two_DoWn wrote:
They never bought it before. Thats why they tried to split the items. Hell, there is more diversification NOW than there was pre split.
Uhh, yes they did? All 3 items were seen on relevant heroes before the ZRing split.
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On January 13 2012 01:44 turdburgler wrote:i cant see a downside to lichbane i cant believe more people dont get it. adding 700 dmg to your auto attack, is like a whole extra spell, how is it shitty?
A few reasons-
If I am going to spend gold on an item, I want to get the most out of it. For lich bane, that means being able to stagger spells and autos to get the maximum burst. Only ap carries typically want to unload on your face and then GTFO so that they have a chance to cycle spells again. That means at most you are going to be able to throw an auto and then run away so that you dont die and can cycle cooldowns.
It only works as a late game item because you need to have quite a bit of ap to make the lichbane proc better than just having the sheen. Only late game there are much better options- wota, void, zhonyas, rylais, even defensive items like banshees.
I mean sure, there are champions who can get away with lich bane and it works very well. Lux, Sion, and Gragas can all make cases for getting it as ap carries. But none are really the same sort of standard ap carry, and all of them have disadvantages that standard ap carreis dont have that lich bane helps cover/fits in with.
So ya, it isnt the worst item in the game, but it doenst make a lot of sense on a large amount of ap carries.
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I'm not sure if it's a good example since, as you say, DC is straight up damage in its purest form (eg. AP, whichever role it plays into the way your damage/scaling builds), while DFG/Lichbane have "conditions". If it wasn't for her passive, Lux'd never build Lichbane for example because using it forces her to forego her huge range. DFG's range is kinda short for several champions too, while DC doesn't impose any restriction on them. So even aside from the cost effectiveness, there'd still be the freedom it gives.
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I can see it.
Top: Sejuani
Mid: Anivia
Bot: Ashe/Janna(frost skin)
Jungle: Nunu
Good luck running away.
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On January 13 2012 01:53 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 01:44 turdburgler wrote:i cant see a downside to lichbane i cant believe more people dont get it. adding 700 dmg to your auto attack, is like a whole extra spell, how is it shitty? A few reasons- If I am going to spend gold on an item, I want to get the most out of it. For lich bane, that means being able to stagger spells and autos to get the maximum burst. Only ap carries typically want to unload on your face and then GTFO so that they have a chance to cycle spells again. That means at most you are going to be able to throw an auto and then run away so that you dont die and can cycle cooldowns. It only works as a late game item because you need to have quite a bit of ap to make the lichbane proc better than just having the sheen. Only late game there are much better options- wota, void, zhonyas, rylais, even defensive items like banshees. I mean sure, there are champions who can get away with lich bane and it works very well. Lux, Sion, and Gragas can all make cases for getting it as ap carries. But none are really the same sort of standard ap carry, and all of them have disadvantages that standard ap carreis dont have that lich bane helps cover/fits in with. So ya, it isnt the worst item in the game, but it doenst make a lot of sense on a large amount of ap carries.
Well, if your burst has a range close to your AA range and you have low CDs, why not ?
Lich is 80AP, 30MR, and MS, it's a very well rounded item for a lot of APs.
On top of my head, I'd say Cassio could make good use of it, ofc Nidalee, Gragas, Fizz, Ahri, maybe Orianna, Swain, Annie, and I'm surely forgetting some...
For a single slot and 3k5 it's a wonderful item if you land 2-3 charged autos in a teamfight. But... You do it after raba :D
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On January 13 2012 01:48 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 01:36 Two_DoWn wrote:
Normally you make sense Yango, but Im not sure what you are talking about here. It didnt matter that Zring took another ap item to become "cost effecient" because back then everyone ran ROA->Zhonyas and already had enough ap to make it worthwhile anyway.
Not true. Zhonya's was 6th item luxury for most champs that had significantly better choices. For example, Anivia/Kassadin got AA Staff, Annie got DFG, and TF rushed Lichbane. Obviously Kennen and Morgana got ZRing because they loved the active. They needed to put an alternative in for guys that got Zhonya's because there was no better item geared toward them (e.g. Sion got it, despite not really having any great synergy with the active). But instead they ended up creating a damage-focused AP item that was better than pretty much everything for pretty much everybody. Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 01:43 Two_DoWn wrote:
They never bought it before. Thats why they tried to split the items. Hell, there is more diversification NOW than there was pre split.
Uhh, yes they did? All 3 items were seen on relevant heroes before the ZRing split.
A few things wrong with this argument-
AA staff has been largely removed from the game because of the prevalence of trading blue to casters. Its the same reason we have seen cata fall off the map recently- there is no reason to itemize mana regen or a massive mana pool if you are going to get it for free. So you cant blame that item's disappearance on the zhonyas split. Zhonyas was already better than AA before the split in terms of damage, you just grabbed tear because you needed the mana on those champs in the midgame. You dont anymore.
I never got dfg on annie, and I dont remember any high elo people getting it either. Annie build was always cata->roa->zhonyas. Not sure where you came up with DFG cuz pretty much no one got that on her.
TF still gets a lich bane at the same time he used to. You cant rush a lich bane straight off because it gets worse than the sheen proc if you dont have any ap besides it. So agian, TF would get some ap, usually in the form of ROA if I remember correctly, THEN get a lich bane and zhonyas.
I think you are forgetting the other thing- back then EVERY ap caster got cata->roa first, then grabbed zhonyas simply because cata was broken in the laning phase. So if you want to talk about ap diversification, thats where you need to start.
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On January 13 2012 02:00 mr_tolkien wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 01:53 Two_DoWn wrote:On January 13 2012 01:44 turdburgler wrote:i cant see a downside to lichbane i cant believe more people dont get it. adding 700 dmg to your auto attack, is like a whole extra spell, how is it shitty? A few reasons- If I am going to spend gold on an item, I want to get the most out of it. For lich bane, that means being able to stagger spells and autos to get the maximum burst. Only ap carries typically want to unload on your face and then GTFO so that they have a chance to cycle spells again. That means at most you are going to be able to throw an auto and then run away so that you dont die and can cycle cooldowns. It only works as a late game item because you need to have quite a bit of ap to make the lichbane proc better than just having the sheen. Only late game there are much better options- wota, void, zhonyas, rylais, even defensive items like banshees. I mean sure, there are champions who can get away with lich bane and it works very well. Lux, Sion, and Gragas can all make cases for getting it as ap carries. But none are really the same sort of standard ap carry, and all of them have disadvantages that standard ap carreis dont have that lich bane helps cover/fits in with. So ya, it isnt the worst item in the game, but it doenst make a lot of sense on a large amount of ap carries. Well, if your burst has a range close to your AA range and you have low CDs, why not ? Lich is 80AP, 30MR, and MS, it's a very well rounded item for a lot of APs. On top of my head, I'd say Cassio could make good use of it, ofc Nidalee, Gragas, Fizz, Ahri, maybe Orianna, Swain, Annie, and I'm surely forgetting some... For a single slot and 3k5 it's a wonderful item if you land 2-3 charged autos in a teamfight. But... You do it after raba :D
I think it's a waste on cassio, why autoattack when you're in range to spam your E anyways, it's also great on kass, you rift into melee range often anyways.
I've seen regi get a sheen on anivia once, that was horrible lol.
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The other issue with lich bane is that the proc does physical damage which you dont have pen for.
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United States47024 Posts
On January 13 2012 02:00 mr_tolkien wrote:
On top of my head, I'd say Cassio could make good use of it, ofc Nidalee, Gragas, Fizz, Ahri, maybe Orianna, Swain, Annie, and I'm surely forgetting some...
For a single slot and 3k5 it's a wonderful item if you land 2-3 charged autos in a teamfight. But... You do it after raba :D
Why would Cassio want it? Performing an autoattack interrupts your ability to cast, and Cassio's pretty much always going to have a spell she's going to want to cast rather than autoattack.
Though TBH the real situational utility of Lichbane comes from the fact that it allows APs to take towers as quickly as their AD counterparts.
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On January 13 2012 01:48 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 01:36 Two_DoWn wrote:
Normally you make sense Yango, but Im not sure what you are talking about here. It didnt matter that Zring took another ap item to become "cost effecient" because back then everyone ran ROA->Zhonyas and already had enough ap to make it worthwhile anyway.
Not true. Zhonya's was 6th item luxury for most champs that had significantly better choices. For example, Anivia/Kassadin got AA Staff, Annie got DFG, and TF rushed Lichbane. Obviously Kennen and Morgana got ZRing because they loved the active. They needed to put an alternative in for guys that got Zhonya's because there was no better item geared toward them (e.g. Sion got it, despite not really having any great synergy with the active). But instead they ended up creating a damage-focused AP item that was better than pretty much everything for pretty much everybody. Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 01:43 Two_DoWn wrote:
They never bought it before. Thats why they tried to split the items. Hell, there is more diversification NOW than there was pre split.
Uhh, yes they did? All 3 items were seen on relevant heroes before the ZRing split.
um actually back when they remade it zhonyas was considered super imbalanced and overpowered *>_> It was more of a problem with zhonyas giving both the dmg and the awesome active, saying that they split it because no one got it makes no sense as everyone and their mother was rushing it
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United States47024 Posts
On January 13 2012 02:02 Two_DoWn wrote:
AA staff has been largely removed from the game because of the prevalence of trading blue to casters. Its the same reason we have seen cata fall off the map recently- there is no reason to itemize mana regen or a massive mana pool if you are going to get it for free. So you cant blame that item's disappearance on the zhonyas split. Zhonyas was already better than AA before the split in terms of damage, you just grabbed tear because you needed the mana on those champs in the midgame. You dont anymore.
Kobe was already giving 2nd blue to jiji's Anivia/Kass/Zilean before the Zhonya's split. He still got AA because of the overall mana flexibility.
On January 13 2012 02:02 Two_DoWn wrote:
I never got dfg on annie, and I dont remember any high elo people getting it either. Annie build was always cata->roa->zhonyas. Not sure where you came up with DFG cuz pretty much no one got that on her.
Back when TOO wasn't a jungle-only player and was arguably the best Annie player in the game, his core was RoA+DFG, and I'm fairly sure I remember Salce and Regi doing this as well.
On January 13 2012 02:02 Two_DoWn wrote:
TF still gets a lich bane at the same time he used to. You cant rush a lich bane straight off because it gets worse than the sheen proc if you dont have any ap besides it. So agian, TF would get some ap, usually in the form of ROA if I remember correctly, THEN get a lich bane and zhonyas.
The go-to build was Lichbane, then Zhonya's (though that's arguably because there's nothing else good for TF after Lich). Go watch the WCG 2010 finals.
On January 13 2012 02:02 Two_DoWn wrote:
I think you are forgetting the other thing- back then EVERY ap caster got cata->roa first, then grabbed zhonyas simply because cata was broken in the laning phase. So if you want to talk about ap diversification, thats where you need to start.
Cata was good, but remember that converting to RoA lost the proc, and BVeil was a much more compelling option because the proc was on a 30 sec CD and it gave more of every stat. Lots of people got Cata, filled out other AP options, then got BVeil.
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I dunno. When I learned to play annie a LONG time ago all of the pros were going roa>zonyas. Why would you even get a dfg? Its really just a shitty item on her overall. If people DID do that, it smacks more of terrible itemization due to people not knowing how to play the game over dfg being a better item choice, because I am 99% sure that even you, yango, would admit that roa>zhonyas is a better build than roa>dfg.
And my point is that people still get lich bane on ap tf. If we are arguing build diversity due to the zhonyas split, then nothing changed. So I dont know what you are arguing here.
As for AA- Jiji played anivia yesterday in a scrim, no AA. And while it could be that rabba is just that much better than zhonyas used to be (although 20 ap and 5% isnt all that big a difference) I think it is more that the game and ap mid players have just gotten better at mana management and relying on blue buff, and they realized what a massive money sink a tear is just so that they dont actually have to think about how they spend mana.
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On January 13 2012 02:14 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 02:02 Two_DoWn wrote:
AA staff has been largely removed from the game because of the prevalence of trading blue to casters. Its the same reason we have seen cata fall off the map recently- there is no reason to itemize mana regen or a massive mana pool if you are going to get it for free. So you cant blame that item's disappearance on the zhonyas split. Zhonyas was already better than AA before the split in terms of damage, you just grabbed tear because you needed the mana on those champs in the midgame. You dont anymore. Kobe was already giving 2nd blue to jiji's Anivia/Kass/Zilean before the Zhonya's split. He still got AA because of the overall mana flexibility. Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 02:02 Two_DoWn wrote:
I never got dfg on annie, and I dont remember any high elo people getting it either. Annie build was always cata->roa->zhonyas. Not sure where you came up with DFG cuz pretty much no one got that on her. Back when TOO wasn't a jungle-only player and was arguably the best Annie player in the game, his core was RoA+DFG, and I'm fairly sure I remember Salce and Regi doing this as well. Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 02:02 Two_DoWn wrote:
TF still gets a lich bane at the same time he used to. You cant rush a lich bane straight off because it gets worse than the sheen proc if you dont have any ap besides it. So agian, TF would get some ap, usually in the form of ROA if I remember correctly, THEN get a lich bane and zhonyas. The go-to build was Lichbane, then Zhonya's (though that's arguably because there's nothing else good for TF after Lich). Go watch the WCG 2010 finals.
Sounds more or less like you're thinking because they built those items back in the day, that those are actually good builds. (like lich first TF)
Even today top players do retarded things. But a lot of the bad play that was more prevalent back 1.5 years ago, when deathcap didn't even exist, isn't as prevalent anymore because people learned a lot more about the game.
Remember back in SC:BW people thought mutas were shit, and 95% of the time they did 1 base play and didn't get an expansion until muchhh later into the game. That was back when the game was NEW and people didn't know much about it. We're talking about what pros did. They didn't know anythingggg back then compared to today, and if you look back at it you're like "wtf? why?" And in today's time, muta stacking is a staple part of zerg strat and fast expands are all the rage. (flash would 14 cc in like 95% of his games when he first joined the televised pro scene) Stuff that was "standard" back then didn't mean it was good. People didn't have enough time to really figure everything out. And with Riot constantly changing their game every 2 or so weeks, it makes it even harder to find a sweet spot.
I think you're trying to argue that there was more diversity when people were still trying to figure shit out, which has nothing to do with today's times. And even then, zring was gotten on EVERY AP champ when people realized "oh, zring is strong, durrr." It became a no brainer to get it 100% of the time as your 1st or 2nd item. You didn't even have many tanky AP's like swain or rumble back then. Heck, Vlad was new back then, and he was gay as hell with zring first, since he didn't even need to build drings/cata -> zhonyas. He got HP from AP so he just built it straight up. Back then spellvamp wasn't even that important and not well known. Basically, when zring finally was realized after a year of play to be retardedly strong, it was split to make people choose, defense vs offense. But many people still build offense first ala deathcap because, guess what, damage on an AP burster is good. Who knew? That's why you don't even see RoA on annie anymore. Damage from deathcap is just better because that's her role midgame. To do damage through her burst. If you wanted more sustained AP damage you wouldn't pick someone like annie.
AP's probably have the biggest item diversity atm. It's a lot more diverse than AD's which basically all either go fast triforce, or grab IE/BT + PD. zzzzzz
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the whole reason for the zring split was that literally every AP build was first or second item zring, bar none.
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Ya I guess that most of my argument boils down to what pala was saying. cata->zhonyas was always the best build, and when people didnt do it they were just being bad.
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Hmm Jarvan, Trundle or Rumble? Who should I get outta the 3 4800's?
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EPT
