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On October 22 2011 11:23 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 11:16 WhiteNights wrote:On October 22 2011 09:50 LancerJ wrote:I actually agree with Utah's conclusions but the arguments on both sides have mostly been quite bad. A few of Utah's posts have been particularly juvenile but picking them apart at this point would be a waste of everyone's time. Put simply there's been a lot of unstated assumptions, assertions about edge cases during a general discussion, ignoring of utility and opportunity cost in an inverted pendulum system, etc. Yango has provided one of the only useful posts, read it twice if you want some closure on the topic: + Show Spoiler +On October 22 2011 04:09 TheYango wrote:
It takes on the order of like 10 minutes for gold/5 items to match the cost-effectiveness of Doran's items (HoG/Kage break even with the plain stat counterparts at 5-7 minutes, and Doran's are significantly more cost-effective than the plain stat items) Ruby Crystal is 475 for 180 health. Heart of Gold gives 250 health, so that would be priced at 660 gold, but it costs 825 gold, so it takes thirty-three ticks to catch up, or five and a half minutes. Also, is playing aggressive support 100% guaranteed to get you raped at high ELO? I'm literally never at 100% health or mana in lane because I trade harass every fifteen seconds. Except we're not comparing Hearts of Gold to Ruby Crystals, because nobody buys Ruby Crystals and just leaves them that way. We're comparing them to Doran's Ring, which is vastly more efficient than a Ruby Crystal.
This is why I hate mathcraft-
what is the going gold value of an item slot?
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On October 22 2011 11:23 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 11:16 WhiteNights wrote:On October 22 2011 09:50 LancerJ wrote:I actually agree with Utah's conclusions but the arguments on both sides have mostly been quite bad. A few of Utah's posts have been particularly juvenile but picking them apart at this point would be a waste of everyone's time. Put simply there's been a lot of unstated assumptions, assertions about edge cases during a general discussion, ignoring of utility and opportunity cost in an inverted pendulum system, etc. Yango has provided one of the only useful posts, read it twice if you want some closure on the topic: + Show Spoiler +On October 22 2011 04:09 TheYango wrote:
It takes on the order of like 10 minutes for gold/5 items to match the cost-effectiveness of Doran's items (HoG/Kage break even with the plain stat counterparts at 5-7 minutes, and Doran's are significantly more cost-effective than the plain stat items) Ruby Crystal is 475 for 180 health. Heart of Gold gives 250 health, so that would be priced at 660 gold, but it costs 825 gold, so it takes thirty-three ticks to catch up, or five and a half minutes. Also, is playing aggressive support 100% guaranteed to get you raped at high ELO? I'm literally never at 100% health or mana in lane because I trade harass every fifteen seconds. Except we're not comparing Hearts of Gold to Ruby Crystals, because nobody buys Ruby Crystals and just leaves them that way. We're comparing them to Doran's Ring, which is vastly more efficient than a Ruby Crystal.
Ruby Crystal is as efficient as a somewhat charged Warmog's. If Doran's items didn't exist and heroes possessed unlimited item slots you could do a lot worse than stacking Ruby Crystals for survivability. In order for a Doran's to pay itself off, you have to convert it into a tangible advantage, and 10 AP converts itself into 90 health over the course of twenty Astral Blessings, which isn't anything to write home about.
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United States47024 Posts
On October 22 2011 11:29 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 11:23 TheYango wrote:On October 22 2011 11:16 WhiteNights wrote:On October 22 2011 09:50 LancerJ wrote:I actually agree with Utah's conclusions but the arguments on both sides have mostly been quite bad. A few of Utah's posts have been particularly juvenile but picking them apart at this point would be a waste of everyone's time. Put simply there's been a lot of unstated assumptions, assertions about edge cases during a general discussion, ignoring of utility and opportunity cost in an inverted pendulum system, etc. Yango has provided one of the only useful posts, read it twice if you want some closure on the topic: + Show Spoiler +On October 22 2011 04:09 TheYango wrote:
It takes on the order of like 10 minutes for gold/5 items to match the cost-effectiveness of Doran's items (HoG/Kage break even with the plain stat counterparts at 5-7 minutes, and Doran's are significantly more cost-effective than the plain stat items) Ruby Crystal is 475 for 180 health. Heart of Gold gives 250 health, so that would be priced at 660 gold, but it costs 825 gold, so it takes thirty-three ticks to catch up, or five and a half minutes. Also, is playing aggressive support 100% guaranteed to get you raped at high ELO? I'm literally never at 100% health or mana in lane because I trade harass every fifteen seconds. Except we're not comparing Hearts of Gold to Ruby Crystals, because nobody buys Ruby Crystals and just leaves them that way. We're comparing them to Doran's Ring, which is vastly more efficient than a Ruby Crystal. This is why I hate mathcraft- what is the going gold value of an item slot?
Does that matter when comparing HoG vs. a DRing? A support is never going to complete Randuin's, and both take up a slot.
On October 22 2011 11:33 WhiteNights wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 11:23 TheYango wrote:On October 22 2011 11:16 WhiteNights wrote:On October 22 2011 09:50 LancerJ wrote:I actually agree with Utah's conclusions but the arguments on both sides have mostly been quite bad. A few of Utah's posts have been particularly juvenile but picking them apart at this point would be a waste of everyone's time. Put simply there's been a lot of unstated assumptions, assertions about edge cases during a general discussion, ignoring of utility and opportunity cost in an inverted pendulum system, etc. Yango has provided one of the only useful posts, read it twice if you want some closure on the topic: + Show Spoiler +On October 22 2011 04:09 TheYango wrote:
It takes on the order of like 10 minutes for gold/5 items to match the cost-effectiveness of Doran's items (HoG/Kage break even with the plain stat counterparts at 5-7 minutes, and Doran's are significantly more cost-effective than the plain stat items) Ruby Crystal is 475 for 180 health. Heart of Gold gives 250 health, so that would be priced at 660 gold, but it costs 825 gold, so it takes thirty-three ticks to catch up, or five and a half minutes. Also, is playing aggressive support 100% guaranteed to get you raped at high ELO? I'm literally never at 100% health or mana in lane because I trade harass every fifteen seconds. Except we're not comparing Hearts of Gold to Ruby Crystals, because nobody buys Ruby Crystals and just leaves them that way. We're comparing them to Doran's Ring, which is vastly more efficient than a Ruby Crystal. Ruby Crystal is as efficient as a somewhat charged Warmog's. If Doran's items didn't exist and heroes possessed unlimited item slots you could do a lot worse than stacking Ruby Crystals for survivability. In order for a Doran's to pay itself off, you have to convert it into a tangible advantage, and 10 AP converts itself into 90 health over the course of twenty Astral Blessings, which isn't anything to write home about.
1) It's 15 AP
2) We're treating mp5 as a zero-value stat now? Guess that de-values Philo Stone accordingly then.
The stats on 2xDRing and Philo+HoG are roughly equivalent. Small amounts of stats being better/worse one way or another, but ultimately reasonably similar value. The cost difference is about 9 wards, which Philo+HoG generate over a little more than 11 minutes.
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On October 22 2011 11:34 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 11:29 Two_DoWn wrote:On October 22 2011 11:23 TheYango wrote:On October 22 2011 11:16 WhiteNights wrote:On October 22 2011 09:50 LancerJ wrote:I actually agree with Utah's conclusions but the arguments on both sides have mostly been quite bad. A few of Utah's posts have been particularly juvenile but picking them apart at this point would be a waste of everyone's time. Put simply there's been a lot of unstated assumptions, assertions about edge cases during a general discussion, ignoring of utility and opportunity cost in an inverted pendulum system, etc. Yango has provided one of the only useful posts, read it twice if you want some closure on the topic: + Show Spoiler +On October 22 2011 04:09 TheYango wrote:
It takes on the order of like 10 minutes for gold/5 items to match the cost-effectiveness of Doran's items (HoG/Kage break even with the plain stat counterparts at 5-7 minutes, and Doran's are significantly more cost-effective than the plain stat items) Ruby Crystal is 475 for 180 health. Heart of Gold gives 250 health, so that would be priced at 660 gold, but it costs 825 gold, so it takes thirty-three ticks to catch up, or five and a half minutes. Also, is playing aggressive support 100% guaranteed to get you raped at high ELO? I'm literally never at 100% health or mana in lane because I trade harass every fifteen seconds. Except we're not comparing Hearts of Gold to Ruby Crystals, because nobody buys Ruby Crystals and just leaves them that way. We're comparing them to Doran's Ring, which is vastly more efficient than a Ruby Crystal. This is why I hate mathcraft- what is the going gold value of an item slot? Does that matter when comparing HoG vs. a DRing? A support is never going to complete Randuin's, and both take up a slot. Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 11:33 WhiteNights wrote:On October 22 2011 11:23 TheYango wrote:On October 22 2011 11:16 WhiteNights wrote:On October 22 2011 09:50 LancerJ wrote:I actually agree with Utah's conclusions but the arguments on both sides have mostly been quite bad. A few of Utah's posts have been particularly juvenile but picking them apart at this point would be a waste of everyone's time. Put simply there's been a lot of unstated assumptions, assertions about edge cases during a general discussion, ignoring of utility and opportunity cost in an inverted pendulum system, etc. Yango has provided one of the only useful posts, read it twice if you want some closure on the topic: + Show Spoiler +On October 22 2011 04:09 TheYango wrote:
It takes on the order of like 10 minutes for gold/5 items to match the cost-effectiveness of Doran's items (HoG/Kage break even with the plain stat counterparts at 5-7 minutes, and Doran's are significantly more cost-effective than the plain stat items) Ruby Crystal is 475 for 180 health. Heart of Gold gives 250 health, so that would be priced at 660 gold, but it costs 825 gold, so it takes thirty-three ticks to catch up, or five and a half minutes. Also, is playing aggressive support 100% guaranteed to get you raped at high ELO? I'm literally never at 100% health or mana in lane because I trade harass every fifteen seconds. Except we're not comparing Hearts of Gold to Ruby Crystals, because nobody buys Ruby Crystals and just leaves them that way. We're comparing them to Doran's Ring, which is vastly more efficient than a Ruby Crystal. Ruby Crystal is as efficient as a somewhat charged Warmog's. If Doran's items didn't exist and heroes possessed unlimited item slots you could do a lot worse than stacking Ruby Crystals for survivability. In order for a Doran's to pay itself off, you have to convert it into a tangible advantage, and 10 AP converts itself into 90 health over the course of twenty Astral Blessings, which isn't anything to write home about. 1) It's 15 AP 2) We're treating mp5 as a zero-value stat now? Guess that de-values Philo Stone accordingly then.
Okay, 135 health. Respectable, I guess. 150 health over twenty Aria of Perseverance activations.
Everybody so far has treated 18 hp5 as a zero-value stat but nobody bitched about that.
The stats on 2xDRing and Philo+HoG are roughly equivalent. Small amounts of stats being better/worse one way or another, but ultimately reasonably similar value. The cost difference is about 9 wards, which Philo+HoG generate over a little more than 11 minutes.
Which means that in the next half hour after you catch up, you're going to generate thirty wards.
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United States47024 Posts
On October 22 2011 11:38 WhiteNights wrote:
Everybody so far has treated 18 hp5 as a zero-value stat but nobody bitched about that.
No that's Uta being a bit overly unreasonable about Philo Stone.
It's 200 HP + 10 mp5 + 30 AP vs. 250 HP + 8 mp5 + 18 hp5. They're roughly equivalent in terms of practical value, IMO.
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It takes 2.5 dorans rings to equal 1 heart of gold in terms of health. What is the value of those 2 slots, especially if you are looking to complete an item? Most supports cant afford to get items all at once, they get pieces of them. So when you tack 2 slots to wards and boots, those other 4 become very important. So if I decide I want health- do I get 2 drings and only have 2 slots left, or do I grab 1 HOG. The opportunity cost of dorans stacking is very important, and cant actually be quantified.
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United States47024 Posts
On October 22 2011 11:38 WhiteNights wrote:
Which means that in the next half hour after you catch up, you're going to generate thirty wards.
Yes, but the HoG comes in at like 15 minutes (assuming you get the Philo first). An average game won't last 30 more minutes. An average game lasts 40 minutes, and a lot of the time, the wards gained in the last 5-10 minutes are not meaningful, as the winning team has map control and is just closing out a nearly won game.
This is not even considering the fact that if the extra immediate wards turn into an assist or Dragon, then that pushes back the clock on when the gp5 catches up.
You're just making me re-iterate stuff I said earlier today though.
On October 22 2011 11:44 Two_DoWn wrote:
It takes 2.5 dorans rings to equal 1 heart of gold in terms of health. What is the value of those 2 slots, especially if you are looking to complete an item? Most supports cant afford to get items all at once, they get pieces of them. So when you tack 2 slots to wards and boots, those other 4 become very important. So if I decide I want health- do I get 2 drings and only have 2 slots left, or do I grab 1 HOG. The opportunity cost of dorans stacking is very important, and cant actually be quantified.
If you've gotten enough "stuff" on a support to fill all those slots, then the next move is to probably finish Shurelya's, which takes zero slots (taking over your Philo Stone).
And really? If you're a support, coming on completely filled item slots, the game is probably pretty late, and there's probably not a long enough time left for the HoG to make back its value. Practically speaking, if you just wanted HP, then your best option might even be to just grab 1-2 waves of CS, and buy a Giant's Belt (bringing back the heresy of supports asking for some farm, I know), which vastly outdoes both other options in question.
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And thats just it. Going for a philo lets you do just that.
Based on my observation of top tier support- the best way to open is faerie charm and a combination of wards and pots. Remove pots, get a philo, thats 2 slots right there that will be taken for the rest of the game. 3rd slot is boots. That means that any support has, at any 1 time, 3 slots with which to get items. Now, those slots are valuable. If I decide to stack drings, then I'm down to a single slot with which to work. Otherwise I can grab a ruby crystal, then decide if I want Kindlegem or hog. Or maybe I need some resists, and grab a null magic mantle and a cloth armor. Hey look- thats an aegis.
My point is simply that item slots on supports, more so than anyone else, matter. And free slots are very important. Yet they have no actual gold value with which to throw into the stupid ass mathcraft efficiency formulas.
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On October 22 2011 11:54 Two_DoWn wrote:
My point is simply that item slots on supports, more so than anyone else, matter.
How do you reckon supports have more item slot problems? Everyone would like to keep 2 slots open for pots + wards, but it's often not really an option if you stack Doran's stuff like a lot of champs do (if you're a caster and have 3x Doran, boots, NLR, Blasting Wand at some point--you can't ward if you have that stuff).
The only time I run out of item slots on supports is if I'm building Aegis before I complete it. Otherwise I find I'm selling items more often in every other role to make room for wards.
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I think philo is a bit ahead of the other gp5s in gold value even post nerf.
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Chausters xerath is terrible. Attack one tank instead of the carry and the support and the ap carry with all of his aoe.
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On October 22 2011 08:03 Lanzoma wrote:
It's been awhile since I've seen a complete internet smackdown. Ah, the nostalgia.
This is the one and only sentence fitting for this entire discussion. =D
But tbh, personally, for me it bows down to:
Does this game feel fast-paced? -> Dorans.
Does this game feel slow-paced? -> Gold items.
Don't make shit so complicated.
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On October 22 2011 11:16 WhiteNights wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 09:50 LancerJ wrote:I actually agree with Utah's conclusions but the arguments on both sides have mostly been quite bad. A few of Utah's posts have been particularly juvenile but picking them apart at this point would be a waste of everyone's time. Put simply there's been a lot of unstated assumptions, assertions about edge cases during a general discussion, ignoring of utility and opportunity cost in an inverted pendulum system, etc. Yango has provided one of the only useful posts, read it twice if you want some closure on the topic: + Show Spoiler +On October 22 2011 04:09 TheYango wrote:
It takes on the order of like 10 minutes for gold/5 items to match the cost-effectiveness of Doran's items (HoG/Kage break even with the plain stat counterparts at 5-7 minutes, and Doran's are significantly more cost-effective than the plain stat items) Ruby Crystal is 475 for 180 health. Heart of Gold gives 250 health, so that would be priced at 660 gold, but it costs 825 gold, so it takes thirty-three ticks to catch up, or five and a half minutes.
Yango already mentioned the 5-7 minute break even time for gp10 items compared to base items. You can roughly double those times to see when it would be a net benefit to get the gp10.
The comparison goes much worse when you try Doran's items instead.
About 870 gold stat value in a D-Ring based on Ruby Crystal / Amp Tome / Meki. So D-Ring costs 475 and gives 870 back while HoG costs 825 and gives 660 + 5 gp10 back. You end up paying an extra 350 gold to get -210 gold in stat value to get the 5 gp10. That -560 gold swing amounts to 18 minutes to break even and ~36 minutes to actually make up for the earlier loss.
To put it in more concrete terms, if you go back and buy with 825 gold you can buy the D-Ring + 3 green wards + 1 pink ward or just the HoG. The HoG would pay for its own -210 gold inefficiency and then make enough profit for your first green ward in 10 minutes.
Granted, this comparison is biased in favor of the D-Ring because Faerie Charm and Meki are inefficient themselves. It'd be more fair to value D-Ring at about 700 gold instead of 870 which chops the break even down to 13 minutes and benefit to ~26 or the first green ward comparison down to 4 minutes.
Mathematically, Philo fairs better than HoG or other gp10 items but regen is, as mentioned, overvalued due to high basic item cost.
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Hotshot and SV arguing with each other again
SV: "No matter what happens, you always blame me"
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On October 22 2011 12:34 Craton wrote:
Hotshot and SV arguing with each other again
SV: "No matter what happens, you always blame me"
This shit is hilarious.
SV: "Hotshot, You sound like an 8 year old who didn't get his milk and cookies"
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On October 22 2011 12:34 Craton wrote:
Hotshot and SV arguing with each other again
SV: "No matter what happens, you always blame me"
To be fair, most of the time SV does actually have the right calls.
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Saint likes to clear his jungle no matter what mobs spawned (omg wraiths) before going for a gank, which is a problem (in team play). But saint doing red and them taking baron have nothing to do with each other. CLG isn't going to fight 4v5 even if baron is hitting the other team. They are actually talking about two different problems. Saints play seems to be much more solo queue oriented where he has to carry and needs the farm, instead of trusting his team to get ganks to happen.
Hotshot doesn't even realize how many terrible mistakes he makes, which is why as a solo carry I much prefer Regi, he is very acutely aware of when he was playing stupid.
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I tried to post about it earlier, no one here is interested. Too busy bitching about supports.
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"FUCK BRO I PLAYED SO BAD BRO I GOT FUCKING OUTPLAYED OMG THIS GUY IS SO GOOD FUCK"
Better than "what the fuck it's your fault I died saint"
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EPT
