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At some point each and every one of us has looked at an upcoming or current champion and thought, "I would have done this differently" or "I could have done a better job". Maybe it was the concept or the numbers or the mechanics, but our inner armchair designer awoke and demanded our mental faculties be devoted to the near-pointless exercise of designing a champion.
This thread is an outlet for that creative impulse. To be clear, this thread is for:
- Discussing general champion design.
- Sharing our own designs for feedback and criticism.
- Pretending any of this is relevant.
This thread is not for:
- Complaining about actual champions.
- Complaining about Riot and any perceived inability to design good champions.
- Complaining about the current metagame and how all champions who match it are played by noobs.
I'll start the discussion with a champion I felt the impulse to design when I heard that Karma had originally been intended as an energy champion but it was dropped due to the balance issues surrounding a support champion with an infinite, fixed resource.
http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=505486
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i've always wanted to play a champ with interesting vision mechanics (originally for the blind monk champion)
my original idea was a champ with limited vision, but with a 'bloodseeker' sort of mechanic where he can 'see' nearby champs in a certain radius, as well as having a mechanic to automatically blink to the nearest champion.
the biggest problems with this are A) i'm fairly confident that many people will find it boring to have more fog of war than normal, which will also make last-hitting more of a pain, and B) to balance a champion who sort of defies fog of war and makes it nearly impossible to sneak up on him
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United States47024 Posts
Personally, I think some design space that needs to be explored is more non-traditional forms of CC, that are more interactive. Point-and-click stuns are extremely boring.
The two ideas I had were either break-on-damage CC (e.g. Bane Elemental's Nightmare), or leash effects that allow limited mobility within a certain space.
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I want a champion that's super pro at denying last hits by healing minions for free at low cooldown, and whose damage output is dependent on how many more cs he has over the enemy champion.
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I want a bash mechanic in the game
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United States47024 Posts
On February 12 2011 02:35 gtrsrs wrote:
I want a bash mechanic in the game
Technically the game does have on-hit stuns, it's just that none of them are random.
Seeing as I already don't really like crit/dodge, I can't say I'd support more random mechanics.
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On February 12 2011 02:21 TheYango wrote:
Personally, I think some design space that needs to be explored is more non-traditional forms of CC, that are more interactive. Point-and-click stuns are extremely boring.
The two ideas I had were either break-on-damage CC (e.g. Bane Elemental's Nightmare), or leash effects that allow limited mobility within a certain space.
This. Getting tired of remaking similar skills into other champs that somewhat fills the same purpose.
I was thinking more in the lines of a tank champ having the ability to have an ignite-like-skill (AoE or not) that increases the damage over time on the enemy champ by other sources of damage.
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On February 12 2011 02:21 TheYango wrote:
Personally, I think some design space that needs to be explored is more non-traditional forms of CC, that are more interactive. Point-and-click stuns are extremely boring.
The two ideas I had were either break-on-damage CC (e.g. Bane Elemental's Nightmare), or leash effects that allow limited mobility within a certain space.
I think it's unlikely that Riot will implement any CC that breaks on damage. It would work in the high end of competition, but in all other brackets the champion would be near useless due to thoughtless AoE from allies.
How would you define "limited mobility" in your second example? Are you talking about a circular Anivia wall or something?
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More a lá Warwick kind of stuns, with epic combo combinations, instead of just swipe-swipe-swipe.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 12 2011 02:42 Seuss wrote:
How would you define "limited mobility" in your second example? Are you talking about a circular Anivia wall or something?
That's sort of the idea, but that itself would be on the powerful side. More realistic would be something like a well that slows you more the further you are from the center.
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On February 12 2011 02:21 TheYango wrote:
The two ideas I had were either break-on-damage CC (e.g. Bane Elemental's Nightmare), or leash effects that allow limited mobility within a certain space.
Veigar's Event Horizon is a very binary version of your 2nd one. Lazer bird from swain is like a leash.
They don't want the burden of knowledge to be too high so the particle effects must be able to convey the effect at hand. Having some kind of weird leash would be difficult (not impossible) to show.
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On February 12 2011 02:41 DragonSharp wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2011 02:21 TheYango wrote:
Personally, I think some design space that needs to be explored is more non-traditional forms of CC, that are more interactive. Point-and-click stuns are extremely boring.
The two ideas I had were either break-on-damage CC (e.g. Bane Elemental's Nightmare), or leash effects that allow limited mobility within a certain space. I was thinking more in the lines of a tank champ having the ability to have an ignite-like-skill (AoE or not) that increases the damage over time on the enemy champ by other sources of damage.
swain's torment was originally this but they decided it was too powerful (dumb)
On February 12 2011 02:21 TheYango wrote:
The two ideas I had were either break-on-damage CC (e.g. Bane Elemental's Nightmare), or leash effects that allow limited mobility within a certain space.
puck's ult
puck would be a great addition to LoL
so would storm spirit
fucking get on it riot
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On February 12 2011 03:13 Phrost wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2011 02:21 TheYango wrote:
The two ideas I had were either break-on-damage CC (e.g. Bane Elemental's Nightmare), or leash effects that allow limited mobility within a certain space. Veigar's Event Horizon is a very binary version of your 2nd one. Lazer bird from swain is like a leash. They don't want the burden of knowledge to be too high so the particle effects must be able to convey the effect at hand. Having some kind of weird leash would be difficult (not impossible) to show.
Well they have leashes on stuff like morgana ult, the main thing they don't want to do is punish people for running away from perceived danger which is basically their whole argument about bloodseeker ult.
That said I think Riot's eventually going to have to racket up some complexity just to keep people from being bored of another female ranged dps.
On February 12 2011 03:38 gtrsrs wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2011 02:41 DragonSharp wrote:On February 12 2011 02:21 TheYango wrote:
Personally, I think some design space that needs to be explored is more non-traditional forms of CC, that are more interactive. Point-and-click stuns are extremely boring.
The two ideas I had were either break-on-damage CC (e.g. Bane Elemental's Nightmare), or leash effects that allow limited mobility within a certain space. I was thinking more in the lines of a tank champ having the ability to have an ignite-like-skill (AoE or not) that increases the damage over time on the enemy champ by other sources of damage. swain's torment was originally this but they decided it was too powerful (dumb)
My understanding is that they changed it from a version of Maladict to just a flat damage increase for complexity reasons. It had nothing to do with power whatsoever (both versions did the same amount of damage) and mainly had to do with being newbies to newbies since the maladict version didn't really change how you played Swain anyways.
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On February 12 2011 03:41 phyvo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2011 03:13 Phrost wrote:On February 12 2011 02:21 TheYango wrote:
The two ideas I had were either break-on-damage CC (e.g. Bane Elemental's Nightmare), or leash effects that allow limited mobility within a certain space. Veigar's Event Horizon is a very binary version of your 2nd one. Lazer bird from swain is like a leash. They don't want the burden of knowledge to be too high so the particle effects must be able to convey the effect at hand. Having some kind of weird leash would be difficult (not impossible) to show. Well they have leashes on stuff like morgana ult, the main thing they don't want to do is punish people for running away from perceived danger which is basically their whole argument about bloodseeker ult. That said I think Riot's eventually going to have to racket up some complexity just to keep people from being bored of another female ranged dps.
They don't want the burden of knowledge or the false choice to be factors in how a champion plays because it will play too widely different at different skill levels.
The think about bloodseeker's rupture is how extremely differently it has to be balanced if one assumes it always does damage (if you don't know how it works) or almost never does damage (if you do know how it works).
The false choice factor is that general survival instincts should apply whenever in a bad situation. Running from danger should be a valid decision and taric's dazzle is balanced such that it is but it isnt at the same time. Running from his E increases stun duration but decreases damage done.
Nidalee's spear isnt the same thing. If you run from it you will take less damage (ie none) if it misses but if you run and still get hurt then you will suffer more than not running at all.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 12 2011 03:13 Phrost wrote:
They don't want the burden of knowledge to be too high so the particle effects must be able to convey the effect at hand. Having some kind of weird leash would be difficult (not impossible) to show.
I'm aware of this, but I'm personally of the opinion that this, plus the generally low power level, limit the available design space more than the gain is worth.
On February 12 2011 03:38 gtrsrs wrote:
puck's ult
puck would be a great addition to LoL
so would storm spirit
fucking get on it riot
I think Kennen was Riot's attempt at a Storm Spirit-like champion.
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On February 12 2011 03:48 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2011 03:13 Phrost wrote:
They don't want the burden of knowledge to be too high so the particle effects must be able to convey the effect at hand. Having some kind of weird leash would be difficult (not impossible) to show. I'm aware of this, but I'm personally of the opinion that this, plus the generally low power level, limit the available design space more than the gain is worth. Show nested quote +On February 12 2011 03:38 gtrsrs wrote:
puck's ult
puck would be a great addition to LoL
so would storm spirit
fucking get on it riot I think Kennen was Riot's attempt at a Storm Spirit-like champion.
I think there are more things that they can explore and they will continue to push the envelope as far as complexity is concerned.
Personally I would like to see more conditional skills more like Irelia's E to increase skill based usage.
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I think there should be a "night and day" phase in the game. Making some champs have +/-% dmg based on time of day.
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On February 12 2011 03:41 phyvo wrote:
My understanding is that they changed it from a version of Maladict to just a flat damage increase for complexity reasons. It had nothing to do with power whatsoever (both versions did the same amount of damage) and mainly had to do with being newbies to newbies since the maladict version didn't really change how you played Swain anyways.
swain's torment originally amplified damage from all sources
they changed it to just amplifying swain's power because obv it was too powerful as is
that's one of the problems of LoL imo. you can't give support heroes *too good* of support skills because they all scale with AP and even a support hero can output massive damage in LoL
like can you imagine if any support champ in this game had witch doctor's stun? and it scaled with AP? it'd be the most broken thing ever, you could lock down a whole team from a distance and do massive damage by just building AP
so this is why we can't have nice things
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Would it be crazy, therefore, to suggest that perhaps Riot could design a champion with either terrible or non-existent AP ratios and perhaps provide some semblance of the nice things we are missing out upon?
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On February 12 2011 04:56 gtrsrs wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2011 03:41 phyvo wrote:
My understanding is that they changed it from a version of Maladict to just a flat damage increase for complexity reasons. It had nothing to do with power whatsoever (both versions did the same amount of damage) and mainly had to do with being newbies to newbies since the maladict version didn't really change how you played Swain anyways. swain's torment originally amplified damage from all sources they changed it to just amplifying swain's power because obv it was too powerful as is that's one of the problems of LoL imo. you can't give support heroes *too good* of support skills because they all scale with AP and even a support hero can output massive damage in LoL like can you imagine if any support champ in this game had witch doctor's stun? and it scaled with AP? it'd be the most broken thing ever, you could lock down a whole team from a distance and do massive damage by just building AP so this is why we can't have nice things
IIRC it was always just his damage or they would have just changed it to only his damage. Either way the more important reason why they changed it was specifically so that it wasn't difficult to understand and do quick math for.
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EPT
