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On January 10 2011 04:49 ofcourse wrote:
bought udyr ages ago but never played him ... HES SO FREAKING STRONG
imo one of the most underrated champs, espacially lategame. his ganks are strong @ lvl4 with double (or just red) buff(s) and his ability to tank lategame are better then those of some so called tanks
btw, are there any EU high elo streamers out there ?
i guess not cause the european servers are DOWN ALL THE EFING TIME. im so pissed, there hasnt been a day in the last 10 days where u could actually play without any problems ...
udyr has never really been underrated as of late
scaling with turtle is stupid good, even in midgame he's a boss if you've gotten a few kills or assists
and he is considered a tank
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United States47024 Posts
On January 10 2011 04:53 Navi wrote:
yes LoL is less like HoN in that every character type (casters, tanks, etc.) all have a lot to gain from the first 2000-3000 gold in items (the passives on mercs, sunfire, HoG, w/e as well as the stats actively gained from these items, health def mres etc. make tanks even tankier), and while they don't mind getting additional gold after that, the gold is better spent on their carry. In fact, a lot of these tanks / casters NEED this initial gold to be of any use against a well organized team. Whereas in HoN you might see an enemy support champion with the equivalent of boots1, a amp tome, and wards + 3 red and blue pots, even into the midgame if they are playing support really hard, because having gold go to the carry gives exponential benefits (every big item they complete multiplies their efficiency and damage output).
To be fair, the full-on support champs in LoL can do this too (I don't think Janna has qualms midgame being a couple levels behind, and with 2 Doran's Rings and Boots 1 as the only non-consumable items to her name), it's just that you tend not to see more than 1 farm-less babysitter on a team per game (whereas 2-3 such heroes can be perfectly reasonable in DotA/HoN), and not even one sometimes in solo queue.
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On January 10 2011 05:13 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2011 04:53 Navi wrote:
yes LoL is less like HoN in that every character type (casters, tanks, etc.) all have a lot to gain from the first 2000-3000 gold in items (the passives on mercs, sunfire, HoG, w/e as well as the stats actively gained from these items, health def mres etc. make tanks even tankier), and while they don't mind getting additional gold after that, the gold is better spent on their carry. In fact, a lot of these tanks / casters NEED this initial gold to be of any use against a well organized team. Whereas in HoN you might see an enemy support champion with the equivalent of boots1, a amp tome, and wards + 3 red and blue pots, even into the midgame if they are playing support really hard, because having gold go to the carry gives exponential benefits (every big item they complete multiplies their efficiency and damage output). To be fair, the full-on support champs in LoL can do this too (I don't think Janna has qualms midgame being a couple levels behind, and with 2 Doran's Rings and Boots 1 as the only non-consumable items to her name), it's just that you tend not to see more than 1 farm-less babysitter on a team per game (whereas 2-3 such heroes can be perfectly reasonable in DotA/HoN), and not even one sometimes in solo queue.
Yeah I was gonna mention Janna as probably the one exception in LoL because her skills' base uses (knockup, knockback, damage redux + flat ad, slow and movespeed steroid) give her so much utility with or without items that she is probably the one hero who can just ward whore and be useful the entire game in fights and out of.
And yeah dorans ring is probably a more apt comparison than amp tome.
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Anyone who babysits can totally do that, morgana, janna, soraka, taric, shen, alistar, blitz...
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shen, taric, alistar, blitz with no survivability is kinda lolworthy
like i'd love to see a shen midgame with boots + dshield + wardspam try to taunt without getting killed LOL
edit: morgana not being able to use her really good AP ratios (hence why morgana is a viable solo option, to allow her cata farm so that she can build into RoA or w/e) diminishes her power in mid game and late game in particular very badly. She is support in a way, but she can deal good damage while fulfilling that role. seeing as a lot of high level games go into the late game, it would be a waste to just wardspam with her.
i agree on soraka, she can fulfill her job without items, but she provides relatively low utility (a silence and healing) as compared to janna, leading to her relative uselessness in most scenarios.
i think the main point in question, that stacking all the gold on one hero is not efficient in LoL (at the very least compared to HoN) is agreed upon tho
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Shen has a TP so split pushing naturally gives him farm, Taric/Blitz/Morg can easily farm mass waves of creeps later in the game, and Alistar/Janna doesnt need farm. Thats the reason why they make good babysitters, they either make up the gold later or dont need farm at all.
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On January 10 2011 08:55 Navi wrote:
shen, taric, alistar, blitz with no survivability is kinda lolworthy
like i'd love to see a shen midgame with boots + dshield + wardspam try to taunt without getting killed LOL
edit: morgana not being able to use her really good AP ratios (hence why morgana is a viable solo option, to allow her cata farm so that she can build into RoA or w/e) diminishes her power in mid game and late game in particular very badly. She is support in a way, but she can deal good damage while fulfilling that role. seeing as a lot of high level games go into the late game, it would be a waste to just wardspam with her.
i agree on soraka, she can fulfill her job without items, but she provides relatively low utility (a silence and healing) as compared to janna, leading to her relative uselessness in most scenarios.
i think the main point in question, that stacking all the gold on one hero is not efficient in LoL (at the very least compared to HoN) is agreed upon tho
Alistar that buys survivability is stupid as hell. The natural survivability of taric and alistar is high enough that they really dont need items. Shen and blitz can do without items if your team is already doing well. Really both of those characters just need to disrupt the enemies and thats about it. A well placed taunt or rocket grab can screw an entire enemy formation even if they die.
Most people play morgana as a heavy AP oriented champ but dark binding and soul shackles provide enough cc that really she doesnt need to kill anyone or do a ton of damage.
This is ofcourse assuming best case scenerios for your team. If you're winning only your carries really need items but if you're losing or it's even everything counts.
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On January 10 2011 08:58 Fishcakes wrote:
Shen has a TP so split pushing naturally gives him farm, Taric/Blitz/Morg can easily farm mass waves of creeps later in the game, and Alistar/Janna doesnt need farm. Thats the reason why they make good babysitters, they either make up the gold later or dont need farm at all.
the point in question was whether or not stacking gold on one hero was a good idea (although laning wasn't the concern, it was spinesheath talking about regi taking all of his team's kills). I think it's agreed upon that having 20,000 gold on a single hero and nothing on the others is generally suboptimal as compared to something like a 3000-3000-3000-3000-8000 spread for overall damage output, survivability, and ability to push. And me and yango were talking about how in HoN the 20000-0-0-0-0 is actually legit and probably better because of the power of having a single carry in that game is much stronger than that in LoL where the relative scaling of casters and tanks is more impressive.
But as you mentioned, the vast majority of the "babysit" champs need some of that farm, whether they get it early or later. Thus i think we can agree that spreading gold general gives a bigger benefit than stacking it on one champ
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On January 10 2011 09:09 Phrost wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2011 08:55 Navi wrote:
shen, taric, alistar, blitz with no survivability is kinda lolworthy
like i'd love to see a shen midgame with boots + dshield + wardspam try to taunt without getting killed LOL
edit: morgana not being able to use her really good AP ratios (hence why morgana is a viable solo option, to allow her cata farm so that she can build into RoA or w/e) diminishes her power in mid game and late game in particular very badly. She is support in a way, but she can deal good damage while fulfilling that role. seeing as a lot of high level games go into the late game, it would be a waste to just wardspam with her.
i agree on soraka, she can fulfill her job without items, but she provides relatively low utility (a silence and healing) as compared to janna, leading to her relative uselessness in most scenarios.
i think the main point in question, that stacking all the gold on one hero is not efficient in LoL (at the very least compared to HoN) is agreed upon tho Alistar that buys survivability is stupid as hell. The natural survivability of taric and alistar is high enough that they really dont need items. Shen and blitz can do without items if your team is already doing well. Really both of those characters just need to disrupt the enemies and thats about it. A well placed taunt or rocket grab can screw an entire enemy formation even if they die. Most people play morgana as a heavy AP oriented champ but dark binding and soul shackles provide enough cc that really she doesnt need to kill anyone or do a ton of damage. This is ofcourse assuming best case scenerios for your team. If you're winning only your carries really need items but if you're losing or it's even everything counts.
i just grabbed all the beefy-sounding champions and lol'd at them
but having basic survivability (like a HoG + mercs, whatever) does go a looong way as compared to having boots + dring on alistar (for that small 1700ish gold you get a ccredux passive and extra def and health and mres, and the HoG pays for itself later). Especially seeing as armor and mres, bought when there is relatively little of the stat, is especially efficient. Having that minimal survivability is really nice for that relatively small amount of gold, which would translate to slightly less than a BF for your carry.
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United States47024 Posts
To be fair, in practice getting that minimal baseline gold can come without kills--particularly as you'll still be picking up money through assists, and through sources of incidental evenly-split gold (Dragon/Baron/Towers).
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morgana needs tanky items to be fully effective imo. Running in and ulting and being tanky enough so they can't just focus you down fast is one of her biggest strengths. It turns her into a fiddle-like threat where you just want to get away and end up screwing up position and wasting time not attacking.
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On January 10 2011 12:00 Kaneh wrote:
morgana needs tanky items to be fully effective imo. Running in and ulting and being tanky enough so they can't just focus you down fast is one of her biggest strengths. It turns her into a fiddle-like threat where you just want to get away and end up screwing up position and wasting time not attacking.
Or you build so much ap that it doesnt matter.
Black shield effectively makes you unkillable while ulting.
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Cdr boots hella pro on Fiddle.
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On January 10 2011 12:13 Phrost wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2011 12:00 Kaneh wrote:
morgana needs tanky items to be fully effective imo. Running in and ulting and being tanky enough so they can't just focus you down fast is one of her biggest strengths. It turns her into a fiddle-like threat where you just want to get away and end up screwing up position and wasting time not attacking. Or you build so much ap that it doesnt matter. Black shield effectively makes you unkillable while ulting.
Unfortunately I don't think this is true at all. Any team with a competent ranged dps will kill you if they have any farm at all and you run into the middle of their team. A Veigar with decent farm can literally press DFG+Q+R and probably just kill you outright. There are enough sources of physical damage in this game that Morg can hardly be called unkillable with AP and spell shield.
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On January 10 2011 13:06 LoCicero wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2011 12:13 Phrost wrote:On January 10 2011 12:00 Kaneh wrote:
morgana needs tanky items to be fully effective imo. Running in and ulting and being tanky enough so they can't just focus you down fast is one of her biggest strengths. It turns her into a fiddle-like threat where you just want to get away and end up screwing up position and wasting time not attacking. Or you build so much ap that it doesnt matter. Black shield effectively makes you unkillable while ulting. Unfortunately I don't think this is true at all. Any team with a competent ranged dps will kill you if they have any farm at all and you run into the middle of their team. A Veigar with decent farm can literally press DFG+Q+R and probably just kill you outright. There are enough sources of physical damage in this game that Morg can hardly be called unkillable with AP and spell shield.
at higher levels yes, for most teams, they cant really kill you. the initial burst is absorbed by the black shield, the rest of their damage is healed through her passive and then the mass confusion ensues as they try to break the soul shackle.
Otherwise you can do the ever popular flash/hourglass
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That is, as long as you don't initiate. Common Morg mistake is thinking you're invincible and trying to replace the tank with flash ulti skillz. It's probably my biggest problem as Morg T_T
Building glass-cannon isn't a good idea, though. RoA is amazing, and Deathcap/Hourglass are pretty much all you need. My old morg build before the split was RoA/Zhonya.
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On January 10 2011 08:55 Navi wrote:
shen, taric, alistar, blitz with no survivability is kinda lolworthy
like i'd love to see a shen midgame with boots + dshield + wardspam try to taunt without getting killed LOL
edit: morgana not being able to use her really good AP ratios (hence why morgana is a viable solo option, to allow her cata farm so that she can build into RoA or w/e) diminishes her power in mid game and late game in particular very badly. She is support in a way, but she can deal good damage while fulfilling that role. seeing as a lot of high level games go into the late game, it would be a waste to just wardspam with her.
i agree on soraka, she can fulfill her job without items, but she provides relatively low utility (a silence and healing) as compared to janna, leading to her relative uselessness in most scenarios.
i think the main point in question, that stacking all the gold on one hero is not efficient in LoL (at the very least compared to HoN) is agreed upon tho
Why would you get survivability on Alistar, he is an AP nuker with no farm. You 4-shot people and have a built in zhonya that allows you to move, idk why you would build tanky items on him.
And udyr has been terrible since 2 patches ago, but that's alright because all junglers are terrible now and dragon means shit. All junglers except for nunu, the only top tier jungler that has not been nerfed, but baddies play him AP and max his Q so nobody can see how good he is.
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On January 10 2011 14:01 r33k wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2011 08:55 Navi wrote:
shen, taric, alistar, blitz with no survivability is kinda lolworthy
like i'd love to see a shen midgame with boots + dshield + wardspam try to taunt without getting killed LOL
edit: morgana not being able to use her really good AP ratios (hence why morgana is a viable solo option, to allow her cata farm so that she can build into RoA or w/e) diminishes her power in mid game and late game in particular very badly. She is support in a way, but she can deal good damage while fulfilling that role. seeing as a lot of high level games go into the late game, it would be a waste to just wardspam with her.
i agree on soraka, she can fulfill her job without items, but she provides relatively low utility (a silence and healing) as compared to janna, leading to her relative uselessness in most scenarios.
i think the main point in question, that stacking all the gold on one hero is not efficient in LoL (at the very least compared to HoN) is agreed upon tho Why would you get survivability on Alistar, he is an AP nuker with no farm. You 4-shot people and have a built in zhonya that allows you to move, idk why you would build tanky items on him. And udyr has been terrible since 2 patches ago, but that's alright because all junglers are terrible now and dragon means shit. All junglers except for nunu, the only top tier jungler that has not been nerfed, but baddies play him AP and max his Q so nobody can see how good he is.
the first paragraph i more/less agree with (not necessarily ap nuker, but i do agree that he doesnt need much survivability at all), but wtf @ the 2nd one. Udyr is just fine, not terrible at all, jungle rammus is great and ww and olaf can jungle just fine as well, so i dont know where u get the 'all junglers are terrible'. also, who the fuck maxes q first on nunu, i have never seen this in all the games i've played, and my elo isnt exactly high, so you cant justify this by saying that only 'lower elo ppl' do it. the vast majority also play tank, so i dont really know where ur getting ap from either...
@ TL in general, speaking of udyr, i've been hearing that tiger stance got overbuffed and is now really fucking strong atm, can any1 confirm/deny this?
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On January 10 2011 14:01 r33k wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2011 08:55 Navi wrote:
shen, taric, alistar, blitz with no survivability is kinda lolworthy
like i'd love to see a shen midgame with boots + dshield + wardspam try to taunt without getting killed LOL
edit: morgana not being able to use her really good AP ratios (hence why morgana is a viable solo option, to allow her cata farm so that she can build into RoA or w/e) diminishes her power in mid game and late game in particular very badly. She is support in a way, but she can deal good damage while fulfilling that role. seeing as a lot of high level games go into the late game, it would be a waste to just wardspam with her.
i agree on soraka, she can fulfill her job without items, but she provides relatively low utility (a silence and healing) as compared to janna, leading to her relative uselessness in most scenarios.
i think the main point in question, that stacking all the gold on one hero is not efficient in LoL (at the very least compared to HoN) is agreed upon tho Why would you get survivability on Alistar, he is an AP nuker with no farm. You 4-shot people and have a built in zhonya that allows you to move, idk why you would build tanky items on him. And udyr has been terrible since 2 patches ago, but that's alright because all junglers are terrible now and dragon means shit. All junglers except for nunu, the only top tier jungler that has not been nerfed, but baddies play him AP and max his Q so nobody can see how good he is.
Shaco, WW, Rammus, Olaf. Ya you're right, nunu only top tier jungler.
And Udyr isn't terrible he just has problems getting kited by certain comps.
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
alistar is extremely easy to farm with, high base dmg, good attack animation and a move that can destroy waves with the press of a button. AP is the way to go on ali, especially once they get rid of him getting more damage on his ult as they are planning.
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EPT
