Top 5 Winners/Losers from Sylvanas Patch

Diamond

United States10796 Posts

April 16 2015 00:19 GMT

Intro
I've been a big fan of Magic: The Gathering for a long time, and a common type of article that is posted after major events is a Top 5 Winners/Losers. This is a list of the cards (not players) that gained or lost the most. Sometimes it's a card that is thought to be awful that is great, or vice versa. Some are cards that everyone thought would be good, and were proven to be so.

I like talking about Heroes so I figured I would make a similar list. We are now a few weeks into the Sylvanas patch and the competitive scene has started to stabilize and some clear winners and losers have emerged. Obviously Heroes is a very young game and anything can change at about any point as new discoveries are made (such as Basketball Azmodan) but this list is composed off what I see currently in competitive play.

Note that because a Hero is on the Winners list does not mean it's the best pick in every situation. On the flip side being on the losers list does not mean that Hero is garbage and cannot win. In fact in every patch you will see many of the "winners" lose games and plenty of the "losers" win games. However I am looking at most overall change, even if the hero was good/bad before.

An important note is THIS LIST IS FOR COMPETITIVE STYLE PLAY, solo que experiences will be different than what is shown here. I also tend to see more NA events than EU so this list will have some NA bias.

So to start off who's the big winners?

Winners

1 - Sylvanas
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The hype is real. Sylvanas is one of the strongest Hero releases I have seen in my time playing Heroes of the Storm. While some releases like Chen or Thrall were very strong and could do new things that had not been done before, Sylvanas flips a base mechanic of the game on it's head, and has one of the strongest kits on the backside to boot.

Multiple obvious things stand out for why Sylvanas is so strong. The largest and most game changing is however her passive, Black Arrows. For those unaware, Black Arrows stuns any minion, mercenary (except boss/map objectives), or any buildings it procs on. You might say "That doesn't sound THAT bad, surely there is something to keep it in check!” Well in fact it has no internal cooldown (allowing for perma-stunned buildings) and procs off of both abilities and basic attacks on a Hero that has a base attack speed of 1.67 and a 0 mana basic ability that gets refreshed seven times per wave and additionally has only a base cooldown of two seconds. In other words, Sylvanas can perma-stun multiple buildings at a time. Honestly this whole section can come down to that last sentence. She completely can eliminate a defenders advantage for 0 mana and no cooldowns.

Add in Wailing Arrow (R), a ranged AOE silence, a reliable escape/gap closer that can go over walls, a DOT that spreads on her Shadow Dagger (W), and you have a kit that is currently unrivaled in Heroes of the Storm. While some characters may be better overall, none have the ability at all levels to bypass all defensive structures for no mana. This ability to "turn off" the defenders advantage is one of many reasons of the resurgence of heavy early game roam lanes and Sylvanas is easily one of the very top Heroes in the game.

No meta shift can likely force Sylvanas out of her first pick/ban status as her current kit works in all known major comps. Unless she gets nerfed in an upcoming patch, expect A LOT of Sylvanas picks/bans in your life if you watch or play competitive Heroes.

2 - Tyrande
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The Church of Elune has invaded Heroes of the Storm in full force. For a long time Tyrande had a powerful kit however she was only seen here or there for a week or two at a time, then would disappear into the void for long periods. However last patch she was seen much more frequently and was starting to quietly become a top pick for a lot of teams.

For a variety of reasons, this patch has seen the full reemergence of the early "gank squad/roam lanes." When gank lanes are an option, no Hero is better than Tyrande. While Tyrande becomes viable anytime roaming is in, she recently got a slew of changes that looked to shift around some of her power and make her more reliable for players. The end result was a VERY strong buff overall. She is now more reliable, more versatile, and her formerly near-useless heal is now a powerhouse when upgraded at level 13. In the end the result was Tyrande getting buffs, quality of life changes, and the current style of competitive play trending towards the style she does better than anyone, all in the same patch.

As long as roam lanes are usable Tyrande in her current form will be a top pick. However I have to imagine Blizzard has taken note of how quick she went to "picked a decent amount" to "pick or ban every single game ever on every map" and will likely tone her back. Giving her access to her old level 13 upgrade on her stun as early as level seven (Size now free passive, Range on seven) and her damage amplification mark should be the likely targets, however who knows at this point.

In any case, this patch Tyrande in my opinion is the #1 overall Hero in the game. She brings a beautiful mix of versatility, utility, healing, vision, ranged CC, and damage that no Hero can match in every area, Tassadar included. If Sylvanas had not come out with such hype and delivered, Tyrande would be an easy #1 pick for this list. You could easily make cases for either.

3 - Jaina
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Jaina is similar to Tyrande in that they were both strong picks commonly used in the last patch. Additionally she also got both direct buffs as well as quality of life changes in a patch that was shifting to a style of play that better suits her than previous ones. While Jaina was very good in the tri-lane scenarios of the past patches, she is better suited to solo laning or two Hero roaming, both of which are much better this patch than has been in months upon months.

Jaina would have likely become a top pick for this patch even without all the love she got in it, the buffs pushed her over the edge. While Tyrande in my opinion is still the #1 pick overall, Jaina is by and far the best high damage option in Heroes of the Storm currently. Expect Jaina to be up with Sylvanas as the #1 priority picks/bans this patch. Tyrande may offer more overall, but what these two do they do better than anyone.

4 - Zagara
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The Broodmother has always been a strong and viable pick since her release, however now she is back to being a top pick that every team plays on every map. While Zagara was a solid pick in the tri-lane meta, she is beyond amazing in a roaming setup where each team has three solo laners. While Zagara does not have an escape, she has something that goes almost entirely unused in a tri-lane scenario, Creep Tumors. Creep Tumors are trivial to insta-clear in a tri-lane scenario, and in fact just end up draining Zagara of mana she could instead spend on pushing/counter-pushing. In a 1v1 lane scenario however, creep wins lanes. Aside for the additional health regeneration offered on creep, the vision network Zagara can set up will make it so the lack of an escape is not an issue, as you will see incoming roam lanes from a mile out. Once Zagara establishes control of a 1v1 lane you have one of the most ungankable lanes in the game. She moves faster than you on creep, she heals more, and she sees more.

Zagara is one of the biggest lane bullies in the game with only a few losing match ups, and Devouring Maw is one of the single best teamfight heroic abilities in the game, Zagara brings it all. She is here to stay this patch and all teams need to know how to play with and against her.

5 - The Lost Vikings
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The Lost Vikings have been a strange Hero since release. Despite since Day 1 having the single highest Hero winrate in Quick Match/Hero League (according to Hotslogs) the Vikings were very rarely seen in competitive play. Several teams experimented with them, and some even had good results when harnessing the power of the Longboat, however they never became a staple and relegated to only several teams playing them, and most only using them on Sky Temple or Cursed Hollow.

Since the current patch however The Lost Vikings have been EVERYWHERE in competitive play. Teams of all skill levels are using them, and even teams that ignored them in previous patches. This is one of the more curious changes as the only change The Lost Vikings received was a slight nerf. However the nerf was minor, and I think the emergence of Vikings can be attributed to two separate things.

First and foremost the Vikings simply operate better and easier in a solo lane vs a tri-lane. In a 1v1 there is less to micromanage, and forcing the opponent to attack Olaf (which he regens right away) has bigger effects. In a tri-lane opponents could focus down Olaf with just auto-attacks of three people alone, where in a solo lane a single Hero will have to use abilities as well to bring him down. Every time a Hero does that but fails to secure the kill on Olaf is an advantage to the Vikings player.

The other factor is simply just time. The Lost Vikings are a complicated Hero that has a setup that has largely been unseen or used in a MOBA before, and when playing at a competitive level you need to be GOOD on a Hero, not just “ok”. When top teams in the last patch started experimenting with Vikings, it sent a message to all teams “start learning The Lost Vikings”, and it seems most got the message.

I could easily see The Lost Vikings being good for a long time, however with their insane winrate in normal games, Blizzard could easily swing the nerf bat their way.

Losers

1 - Any Warrior not named E.T.C or Diablo
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I can’t imagine how frustrated high level Warrior players are right now. For about 6+ months now almost all Warriors have received nerf after nerf, with only slight buffs that don’t matter in return. Anub has been gutted 2-3 times now, Tyrael had his single strongest talent removed with nothing in return, Arthas got gutted, Muradin got ~~bugged~~buffed then nerfed back down in short order, and so on. The only two tanks that have escaped this grasp recently have been E.T.C and Diablo. E.T.C saw emergence in The Lost Vikings patch as one of the only Warriors untouched by nerfs, and Diablo was given some MUCH needed quality of life changes as well as a buff to Apocalypse. The Sylvanas patch brought around a buff for E.T.C as well adding Hardened Shield which secured his spot with Diablo as the Top 2 tanks.

At this point in the games life, if you pick a Warrior that is not E.T.C or Diablo you are picking an inferior Warrior. While some tanks may be picked in certain situations still (such as Tyrael with Nova), in almost all cases picking E.T.C or Diablo would offer you more than picking not E.T.C or Diablo. They are just too good compared to the rest of the field.

2 - Sgt. Hammer
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If you put together a list of Heroes based on their solo lane strength, Sgt Hammer will come up very near the bottom if not on bottom. Roam lanes are back and you need three solid independent solo laners in most cases, a situation that does not help Sgt Hammer. Additionally the choices of current common roamers such as Tyrande and Diablo are all Heroes that very easily can stop a Hammer even while the Hammer’s booster jets are on.

Picking a Hammer used to mean in the tri-lane meta that you had a very strong early game, a “meh” mid game, and god tier late game. In roaming setups you have one of the worst early games possible, a “meh” mid game, then a god tier late game. Giving up both early and mid game in one of your solo lanes is a pretty much guaranteed loss, and until multi-Hero lanes return, I would not expect to see Hammer outside of one-off comps/map strats.

3 - Azmodan
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The “Basketball Azmodan” style popularized by Tempo Storm had already been fading out pretty hard before this patch as teams learned how to play around the late game terror that was a stacking Azmodan. However in the Sylvanas patch Blizzard introduced a limit to the maximum number of stacks you could have in a game. This kills the Azmodan. With the limit being only 500 bonus damage Azmodan will still have a really annoying post-20, however he will no longer be able to stack forever and one shot carries as easily. Between teams adapting last patch and this, I don’t see Azmodan seeing any use until he receives buffs/rework.

4 - Nazeebo
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With the Sylvanas patch came a well needed round of nerfs for Nazeebo who had been topping both damage charts and pick/bans for a long period of time. The amount of effort required to shut down his Ravenous Spirit would often lose a team fights, and if left unchecked would wipe out entire teams in moments by himself. The end result is Nazeebo falling from one of the “go to” damage picks, to a situational pick that has more counterplay and does not scale as well into the late game. The Specialized Toxin nerf in specific was needed and when combined with the changes made somewhat recently to Gathering Power, Nazeebo no longer rules the late game damage. Specialized Toxin frankly was too strong in it’s old form and kept the Ravenous Spirit style alive when combined with Tyrael’s endless nerfs.

However this is not all bad for Nazeebo, the changes to Gargantuan has allowed it to see play, and he has a much better style overall for both players and spectators. However in my own teams comms last patch (or before) when we wanted Nazeebo we would say “better first pick Nazeebo if we want him” and just in a scrims two days ago we said “Well we want Nazeebo, might as well 10th pick him, doubt they will take it”, and we got him in 10th pick. Nazeebo is still a good Hero, just not overwhelming anymore.

5 - Zeratul
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Thrust into the spotlight over the last six or so months, Zeratul looks to be back to lurking in the shadows. The patch brought about a reduction on the second bomb on Double Bomb which significantly reduced Zeratul’s mid to late game burst potential. Double Bombs allows Zeratul to take a play style very similar to LeBlanc from League Of Legends, jump in & cycle your spells (normally one shotting Heroes)then jump out to safety. While that style of play has not been eliminated (and will still be the best style of Zeratul you can play) the burst potential it had is no longer. While 50% by itself is not bad, the previous changes to Gathering Power change the overall possible damage from it’s old 240% with max stacks to (if my math is right) 174% overall, a pretty large change. 60+% damage reduction on your main damage spell is a lot for any Hero to swallow, and Zeratul is no different. Luckily for him the power of Void Prison and Double Bombs + Rewind will keep him in play, however don’t expect to see as many Zeratul bans or quick picks anymore, he will be a situational and late pick now.

Closing
I hope you enjoyed this list as much as I did writing it. I know there is likely many errors and such, however I just wrote this myself in a couple hours, it’s not intended to be a major piece for a website or anything. If people like this I can continue it for future patches, and thank you for your time!

About me
I am Patrick F Soulliere II aka ESV Diamond. I have been involved in E-Sports for over five years and now own a top NA Heroes of the Storm team which I coach named ESV Wildfire. I have around 2.5-3k games played and am Masters league on Hotslogs.com. I have played and won in competitive matches against some of the best teams in NA and always spend much of my time analyzing and theorycrafting. If you have any feedback feel free to leave it here or on my twitter at http://www.twitter.com/esvdiamond.

Thank you all!

[Phantom]

Mexico2170 Posts

April 16 2015 00:37 GMT

Hey, this is pretty awesome!

And I totally agree. Tanks suck. Bad.

I don't have Diablo, I hate ETC, but whats left for me to play in a single warrior meta if not one of those? :/ Sylvanass is definitely too strong, they will probably make his passive only proc with abilities and not basic atacks, which would sime a nice nerf while still retaining most of her usefulness, maybe also add a small mana cost to her Q.

Jaina is pretty guys now, altough since she has no escape she is easily sniped still.

Overall, I agree, and this kind of articles are excelent, specially coming from a top player and team manager, so I hope to see more of these :D Also...Liquipedia! yay!

Heyoka

Katowice25012 Posts

April 16 2015 01:37 GMT

Nice summary, agree with almost all of it. I still think it's weird seeing first pick Tyrandes though.

I also think we're going to find out Lost Vikings are super broken in the right hands but no one is quite at that level of expertise yet. Maybe soon, it seems like it's getting there.

ZKtheMAN

13 Posts

April 16 2015 02:38 GMT

Cool writeup, Diamond! And I definitely agree with your bit about the Warriors, as an avid Muradin player I'd definitely like to see most Warriors buffed up as much as needed to contend with ETC and Dibbelz.

KingCaffeine

2 Posts

April 16 2015 04:25 GMT

I sincerely disagree with the analysis of warriors. ETC and Diablo are just the most common flavor because they fit into multiple compositions and are the easiest to execute. Tanks like Tyrael, Muradin, and Stitches enable strategies that the aforementioned can't.

xDaunt

United States17988 Posts

April 16 2015 04:43 GMT

On April 16 2015 13:25 KingCaffeine wrote:
I sincerely disagree with the analysis of warriors. ETC and Diablo are just the most common flavor because they fit into multiple compositions and are the easiest to execute. Tanks like Tyrael, Muradin, and Stitches enable strategies that the aforementioned can't.

Yeah, I think this is right. Warriors in general are in a pretty good place right now in terms of variety of viable options. Tyrael is particularly underrated for what he can do.

Diamond

United States10796 Posts

April 16 2015 05:05 GMT

I did not mean to imply that the others were not viable, just they aren't Diablo or ETC. I went across around 40 games real quick and looked at picks from the last week and almost every game (at least 35-38) had Diablo and ETC pick/banned. There will always be a niche place for things like Tyrael with Judgement, or hook Stitches, however their inability to fit in every comp leaves them a step behind.

As an example for the basis of this, you will see cards on the "Losers" on the MTG articles I read, even thought 8-20 copies were played in decks that had 50+% winrates it would be considered a "Loser" because it should have had 40-80 copies in those decks if it was a "Winner". You can still use Tyrael or Muradin, however there normally needs to be a specific reason.

You can pick literally any standard 3 dmg, 1 support comp in the game regardless of Heroes and put ETC or Diablo in it and have synergy.

The article I read that led me to make this: http://themeadery.org/articles/winners-and-losers-of-ptdtk

FeyFey

Germany10114 Posts

April 16 2015 05:28 GMT

Can't wait till Muradin will see more use soon as people found out there are better talents on 7 then piercing bolt and that he is Sylvanas worst nightmare. But Diablo and Tyrande are a really good team early game.

fenixsniper

United States17 Posts

April 16 2015 06:16 GMT

I agree for the most part. Really can't wait to see a true master of TLV though.

fezvez

France3021 Posts

April 16 2015 08:07 GMT

#10

As usual, the most interesting articles come from passionate fans that post on TeamLiquid. It must be annoying for all those site I don't frequent (GosuGamers?)

jubil

United States2602 Posts

April 16 2015 08:46 GMT

#11

Wonderful article, reminds me of power rank but with a nice twist, I would love to see updates in the future once the meta shifts again!

Markwerf

Netherlands3728 Posts

April 16 2015 09:02 GMT

#12

Sylvanas is good but not nearly as strong as this article suggests. The entire 'negate defenders advantage' completely is just bull. Sure you can disable a tower/fort but only if you get in the position of actually freely attacking it, which the other team can usually just prevent. In a sense the hero is a bit like sgt. hammer, can push hard and is still a fine hero for teamfights but surrenders slightly in those fights compared to someone like valla. Also she is quite vulnerable to ganks as her escape is slow and a timely stun can interrupt it completely. Overall just a solid pure ranged DPS hero but it's jaina first then valla/sylvanas basically.
Tyrande overall is overrated in this article too, she is solid and a good mix with diablo or some other heroes that let her land her E safely but rarely first pick material. Nuke compositions can be countered quite well with divine shield or just double support comps, she is fairly map and composition dependant and overall a good 2nd or 3rd pick now I feel. Also the patch wasn't really that much of a buff to her, her heal got a bit better and her E easier to hit but her talents got severely weaker with trueshot aura being gutted and moved (although still worth picking from time to time just to show how rediculously good it was). Also healing ward nerf hit her and the fact the owl build is not really an option anymore (not that it was used often but it was a nice option if the other team lacked sustain).

Diablo is missing somewhere along the big gainers i'd say. He was fine before but stitches' nerf especially and his slight ultimate buffs really made him into one of the top tanks. Although I don't think tanks are as bad off as stated here, they were nerfed a lot before but this patch relatively little and supports got nerfed as a whole basically with the healing ward and uther nerf and all top dps heroes got a nerf too (except jaina) which brought warriors in a better position. Stitches, muradin and chen have their uses as well, the warriors are just much more map and composition dependant now, only ETC jumps out as always being very solid and is imo the overall #1 pick along with jaina.

Sponkz

Denmark4564 Posts

April 16 2015 10:57 GMT

#13

It's funny how you post an article about tanks being inferior, when currently Anub´Arak has the highest win-rate in the game among warriors. While i do agree that ETC into Diablo is fairly common, i've been seeing Muradin's and Tyrael's countering the living shit out of Jaina, something i do not think "the big 2" can do with same amount of success. I've also started to run Arthas exclusively against Zagara, with very good success as well. The meta might be stagnating in tournament play, but at least in EU among the highest rated players, the diversity seems as normal as it always was.

Rikudou

Germany151 Posts

April 16 2015 11:02 GMT

#14

the funny thing is that zeratul will always be at least a tier 2 hero, because of his heroic Void Prison (it is arguably the best Heroic in the game in my opinion

Garsecg

United States129 Posts

April 16 2015 12:50 GMT

#15

Awesome post!

Diamond, do you have any thoughts on Uther? He got so many changes I feel like he deserves an honorable mention....

[Phantom]

Mexico2170 Posts

April 16 2015 13:03 GMT

#16

Listening to diamond's opinion about Uther would be certainly nice. However, if you haven't already, I suggest you check out the article we dedicated about those recent changes

.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/heroes/483034-in-light-of-uthers-rework

Leolio X

France26 Posts

April 16 2015 14:21 GMT

#17

Awesome post. :-)
Totally agree with ETC & Diablo. I'm so happy when the other team goes on Anub or Sonya. Diablo is so easy to play and so efficient in ranked games.
Tyrande was my main before patch but I didn't like the talents modifications and used her less (Nova's my main now) but I understand her way better now. I'll try to use her a lot again.
What's strange is that Hammer's played a lot these days (at my low level 35) though he's always on the losing team. Played a few games with and without him and he loses all the time.

FeyFey

Germany10114 Posts

April 16 2015 14:49 GMT

#18

don't forget the thread mentioned NA bias. So EU might look different.

YouGotNothin

United States907 Posts

April 16 2015 14:56 GMT

#19

Great write up, glad to hear Tyrande is on the up and up, she is my easily my favorite champ due to her versatility.

deth2munkies

United States4051 Posts

April 16 2015 15:03 GMT

#20

I think you underrate Stitches a little bit. He's quite nerfed as to damage and loss of sprint, but he still has his hook, which is still just as devastating as it always is, especially against an Uther "protect the squishy" comp.

xDaunt

United States17988 Posts

April 16 2015 15:06 GMT

#21

I'd rate Uther as a winner in this patch, too.

As for Stitches, he's only as good as the number of hooks that he lands to initiate fights. If he consistently does it, he's a beast who can carry teams. If not, he's dead weight.

Tenks

United States3104 Posts

April 16 2015 15:06 GMT

#22

On April 17 2015 00:03 deth2munkies wrote:
I think you underrate Stitches a little bit. He's quite nerfed as to damage and loss of sprint, but he still has his hook, which is still just as devastating as it always is, especially against an Uther "protect the squishy" comp.

Agreed. Stitches became a harder hero to play well. So now everyone isn't just a good Stitches by default. You live and die by your hooks now and if you're missing them suddenly you're the worst warrior in the game.

Sponkz

Denmark4564 Posts

April 16 2015 15:10 GMT

#23

He shouldn't be underrating anything, because Stiches is probably in the worst spot of any warrior, like ever. 44,4% win-rate that keeps going lower. Base health nerfs were way over the board, but then again it follows Blizzard logic so far (gutting the living shit out of every melee warrior).

But yeah, hook can be gamechanging, just not gamechanging enough to have him close to at least 50% winrate.

xDaunt

United States17988 Posts

April 16 2015 15:13 GMT

#24

On April 17 2015 00:10 Sponkz wrote:

Show nested quote +

He has a bad win percentage because he's played a lot by players who don't know how to hook. Play with someone who can land the hooks, and you'll love having Stitches on your team.

Of the warriors, the only one that is grossly underpowered is Anub. Sonya has problems, too, but those are more related to her niche kit. Tyrael is an example of a very good warrior who is good because he has one solid build, but has otherwise garbage talents all over the place. He needs an overhaul, which Blizzard has previously said was coming.

Diamond

United States10796 Posts

April 16 2015 16:34 GMT

#25

I want people to remember THIS LIST IS FOR COMPETITIVE STYLE PLAY, as it seems to have gone a bit unnoticed. Solo que winrates have 0 impact on this list.

Other than that glad there is so much discussion, thanks everyone!

As for the Uther questions, he's #6 in winners, would be higher but he was already pick/ban every game before, and still is now.

RouaF

France4120 Posts

April 16 2015 18:11 GMT

#26

I 100% agree with sylvanas/tyrande/jaina, they are the monsters of this patch.

I do not agree with Zagara though, for some reason top teams pick her in comps with low cc and lose all the time (I can't count the number of times I've seen tassadar+zagara in the same team these days, even though this pick has like 20% win in competitive and for good reasons : it is awful). Sure she brings maw and a good sololane but she doesn't have that much impact in fights if she goes for full creep builds Basically if you don't have a team comp to land a maw combo she is pretty average (just as zeratul is this patch - feast or famine with void prison combo).

Incognoto

France10239 Posts

April 16 2015 19:12 GMT

#27

So even in Hots, tanks suck?

RouaF

France4120 Posts

April 16 2015 19:58 GMT

#28

Well warriors were the undisputed kings of the alpha, they were all so strong + had resurgence. Now they are clearly a bit too weak and ranged heroes too strong, blizzard needs to find the middle ground

KingCaffeine

2 Posts

April 16 2015 21:08 GMT

#29

On April 16 2015 14:05 Diamond wrote:

Show nested quote +

The problem with this logic is assuming every team has the same understanding of the game. There is an enormous skill and game knowledge gap between the top and bottom teams in the NA region. Taking pick/ban statistics that include all teams doesn't really afford an accurate picture of specific hero power levels.

deth2munkies

United States4051 Posts

April 16 2015 21:26 GMT

#30

On April 17 2015 04:58 RouaF wrote:
Well warriors were the undisputed kings of the alpha, they were all so strong + had resurgence. Now they are clearly a bit too weak and ranged heroes too strong, blizzard needs to find the middle ground

I feel like Hardened Shield is a really good style talent for tanks, but it comes so late in the game that the impact is minimal: a lot of competitive games are over or pretty much over by lvl 20. There should be more damage mitigation that encourages riskier engage style play that favors heroes like Tyreal and Anub. Right now they just end up going in and immediately dying.

BisuDagger

Bisutopia19248 Posts

April 16 2015 21:30 GMT

#31

So the four ladies and the manliest men take benefit. Nice.

Edit:Wow autocorrect lol

xDaunt

United States17988 Posts

April 16 2015 21:36 GMT

#32

On April 17 2015 06:26 deth2munkies wrote:

Show nested quote +

As someone who plays a lot of Tyrael, I find that the only times when I die when engaging are when I go too early and get overextended from the team. If I let the teams drift a bit closer, going in is usually pretty safe.

Diamond

United States10796 Posts

April 16 2015 21:40 GMT

#33

On April 17 2015 06:08 KingCaffeine wrote:

Show nested quote +

You can't throw out stats based on if one team is better than another. In LCS do they only show stats for C9/TSM? No, they show it for all teams. Also these VOD's were almost all top teams such as yours.

Just off the bat without going further I checked SolidJake's channel for recent VOD's.

C9M vs EG - ETC pick + Diablo ban
C9M vs EG - ETC pick + Diablo ban
Lunatik vs 2ARC - ETC + Diablo
Lunatik vs 2ARC - Diablo
coL vs 2ARC - ETC + Diablo
coL vs 2ARC - ETC + Diablo
coL vs 2ARC - ETC + Diablo
coL vs 2ARC - ETC
coL vs 2ARC - ETC

Edit: Some of these were pre-Sylvanas patch, just look at any recent NA matches to confirm ETC and Diablo are picked a lot.

Frankly the only teams that ever deviate are yours and 2ARC in NA. I know C9M is about the best pick comp team in the game, so it makes sense why you guys go for Stitches, and 2ARC just has this thing with Tyrael.

I know C9M can run a lot of different tanks, but you are the exception, not the standard.

Again to reiterate, losers does not mean unviable.

hipo

France482 Posts

April 16 2015 22:04 GMT

#34

On April 17 2015 06:40 Diamond wrote:

Show nested quote +

You can't throw out stats based on if one team is better than another. In LCS do they only show stats for C9/TSM? No, they show it for all teams. Also these VOD's were almost all top teams such as yours.

Just off the bat without going further I checked SolidJake's channel for recent VOD's.

C9M vs EG - ETC pick + Diablo ban
C9M vs EG - ETC pick + Diablo ban
Lunatik vs 2ARC - ETC + Diablo
Lunatik vs 2ARC - Diablo
coL vs 2ARC - ETC + Diablo
coL vs 2ARC - ETC + Diablo
coL vs 2ARC - ETC + Diablo
coL vs 2ARC - ETC
coL vs 2ARC - ETC

Frankly the only teams that ever deviate are yours and 2ARC. I know C9M is about the best pick comp team in the game, so it makes sense why you guys go for Stitches, and 2ARC just has this thing with Tyrael.

I know C9M can run a lot of different tanks, but you are the exception, not the standard.

Again to reiterate, losers does not mean unviable.

The situation seem a bit different in Europe. If you look at the playoff of the heroes Major Leagues for examples, you will see heroes like Chen, Tyrael or Muradin being picked as often as Diablo. However, its true that ETC is by far the best warrior since he is picked in almost every single game.

Diamond

United States10796 Posts

April 16 2015 22:12 GMT

#35

Pulled recent VOD's off Khaldor's channel for EU:

LDLC vs G2 - ETC + Diablo
LDLC vs G2 - ETC
LDLC vs G2 - ETC
LDLC vs G2 - ETC (cant see bans)
LDLC vs G2 - ETC (cant see bans)
Well Met vs Kick - ETC + Diablo
G2 vs Team Fancy - ETC + Diablo
Dignitas vs Gryphus - ETC + Diablo
Arthas vs Kick - ETC (can't see bans)
Fnatic vs SK - ETC + Diablo
Fnatic vs SK - ETC (can't see bans)
Fnatic vs SK - Diablo (can't see bans)
Fnatic vs SK - ETC
SK vs LDLC - Diablo
SK vs LDLC - ETC + Diablo
SK vs LDLC - ETC

So let's think about this, I have yet to find a VOD of a pro game from this patch that does not have either ETC or Diablo in it, literally 100% I have searched do.

FeyFey

Germany10114 Posts

April 17 2015 00:15 GMT

#36

On April 17 2015 04:12 Incognoto wrote:
So even in Hots, tanks suck?

No they are pretty awesome, but they are also Melees and that means they are healers of the opposing team thanks to blood for blood.
Melees in general have a harder time engaging so its easier to mess up and right now people concentrate on the easy to play heroes, that work on almost every map.
Thats why Jaina and Sylvanas are so good right now. Diablo and ETC are really bad at grabbing ranged heroes but can push other melees really easily away from their support and into the range of the damage dealers. It is a strong combination really, but not to overpowered.

RageCommodore

Germany912 Posts

April 17 2015 18:26 GMT

#37

Tyrande probably got way more consistent, but moving her trueshot aura was a big enough nerf to offset that. Also shes pretty much a sitting duck now that she doesn't have blink anymore. As someone that has played Tyrande a metric shitton since alpha, I absolutely hate how she got changed, because mostly she didn't get any better for people that were able to consistenly hit her stun before, but now she does less damage and doesn't reward good plays anymore.

All in all I really don't like hpw she plays now. She used to be unique because of her good mix of spell and autoattack damage, and in my opinion they watered her down in terms of being fun to play. But knowing Blizzard, there is no chance that they will revert some of the changes, which makes me very sad.

Diamond

United States10796 Posts

April 17 2015 19:12 GMT

#38

Trueshot was not really good before, there is a lack of strong AA'ers in Heroes. It was nifty, and maybe made sense when Bloodlust was a thing, but I believe almost all Tyrande's went Battle Momentum or The old lvl 7 owl talent (forget what it was).

I don't think the Tyrande changes were a nerf, my roomate is one of the top Tyrande players in NA and he's in love with the changes, especially the lvl 13 heal upgrade.

sM.Zik

Canada2550 Posts

April 18 2015 09:12 GMT

#39

On April 18 2015 03:26 RageCommodore wrote:
Tyrande probably got way more consistent, but moving her trueshot aura was a big enough nerf to offset that. Also shes pretty much a sitting duck now that she doesn't have blink anymore. As someone that has played Tyrande a metric shitton since alpha, I absolutely hate how she got changed, because mostly she didn't get any better for people that were able to consistenly hit her stun before, but now she does less damage and doesn't reward good plays anymore.

All in all I really don't like hpw she plays now. She used to be unique because of her good mix of spell and autoattack damage, and in my opinion they watered her down in terms of being fun to play. But knowing Blizzard, there is no chance that they will revert some of the changes, which makes me very sad.

This is not true. I played her a lot pre patch, played her a lot post patch and while she is very different it's as rewarding to play her. Very strong hero, but I noticed my build is much different than the current new popular tyrande builds (I still take both owl talents).

FeyFey

Germany10114 Posts

April 18 2015 19:33 GMT

#40

Zotac cup had some nice non top 2 tank games, but it was mostly because of one team preferring other heroes. I really like when Liquid goes for Muradins thunderclap against squishies with no instant escape. But quadruple blood for blood combos look so scary.

Fi0na

0 Posts

April 21 2015 23:33 GMT

#41

I believe the Hydralisk from Zagara is way too strong early and falls off hard late game. On the early stages it can nearly 1v1 heroes and easily push you out of lane, but later it feels like it deals hardly any damage at all, even when upgraded. Which is why she feels powerful, but come midgame she better land a great ult or she is not worth much.

Thezzy

Netherlands2117 Posts

April 22 2015 07:53 GMT

#42

Zagara remains valuable throughout the game.
I nearly always go for Endless Creep and half the lanes if sometimes not half the map should be covered in creep, giving a ton of vision as well as making it much safer for Zagara to engage.

Maw can turn an entire teamfight if your team pounces on it and Nydus can provide amazing split-pushing and backdooring potential. I've been trying out a backdoor tactic with an Abathur friend who backdoors with me for some Locusts and then clones Zagara. We usually get a Fort/Keep to near 0% before the enemy team can react. (unless they're at home ofc)

Zagara's auto-attack with Envenomed Spines has great range and damage and she can still push effectively with Roaches/Hydralisk. Early game the Hydralisk is easily dealt with by kiting it into your towers.
Later on I always replace it with double Muta and they can do a ton of damage if left alive.
Two Muta's uncontested can solo a tower at full health, a single Muta takes it down to ~30%.

Most of the time Zagara has top hero damage and the creep vision is so valuable for your team as well as for Zagara to avoid any gank attempt.

FeyFey

Germany10114 Posts

April 22 2015 10:25 GMT

#43

Double Mutas or Hydras do tons of damage, but a good team will kill them really fast and in the lategame you often can't get really close to an enemy and use them, which is usually why they feel so powerful early game. If Mutas/Hydras are ignored one of their assassins will be running and against Mutas they will be running really far away from the fight.

So for the early game stay away from Zagara and have your minions between her and you, since the Hydra will just derp. And hope that you have an ability that removes her creep heh. Because otherwise she can just push really hard as there is no backstab to fear.

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