EPTi was about to say that, but was affraid my d4 placement didnt warrant an opinion
QQ/Rage Thread. - Page 109
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snailz
Croatia900 Posts
i was about to say that, but was affraid my d4 placement didnt warrant an opinion | ||
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ThomasjServo
15244 Posts
Pew pew pew no more fish. Random question if you see murky try to octo you and you punch recall just as he does does octograb or Recall win out? | ||
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Larkin
United Kingdom7161 Posts
On July 01 2016 01:09 ThomasjServo wrote: Pew pew pew no more fish. Random question if you see murky try to octo you and you punch recall just as he does does octograb or Recall win out? Timing based. If Murky is starting the animation but doesn't land the stun just yet, recall wins. If recall is too slow, you'll get stunned. | ||
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Leolio
France633 Posts
Anyway, that's what I believed before the match, and the match proved me right. But maybe it just means this Tracer sucked. After all she was drafted very poorly (5th pick after Nova). | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
Sometimes people just dont care enough how the draft goes, even though that particular player might be a very good one after all. | ||
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Cephiro
Finland1934 Posts
On July 01 2016 17:37 Leolio wrote: Honestly, Murky can trade anything for a kill. Tracer is always low life, if he manages to land octograb, she's dead. If she focuses the fish, he slimes the minions, no big deal. Anyway, that's what I believed before the match, and the match proved me right. But maybe it just means this Tracer sucked. After all she was drafted very poorly (5th pick after Nova). While would agree the tracer played badly, I'm also sure you would've gotten much more done with a snipe burst build rather than OitC. Dragon Shire is a great map for fast rotations, with a bit of coordination you and Tracer should've just gone back and forth between lanes killing everything you jump on. But I guess the biggest issue in that game was the enemy thrall getting solokills. | ||
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JacobShock
Denmark2485 Posts
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Leolio
France633 Posts
On July 01 2016 18:35 Cephiro wrote: While would agree the tracer played badly, I'm also sure you would've gotten much more done with a snipe burst build rather than OitC. Dragon Shire is a great map for fast rotations, with a bit of coordination you and Tracer should've just gone back and forth between lanes killing everything you jump on. But I guess the biggest issue in that game was the enemy thrall getting solokills. I play sustained damage, and it works well. Trading so much damage for an all in broken talent... nope. And again, I was 1st pick, I didn't have to adapt to a 5th pick Tracer. I agree we lack coordination and Thrall hurt us way too much. TBH I made a very mediocre game, but it's 1000 levels ahead of Dehaka and Tracer. I ask my team to go for late game and take no risks, and they still play like idiots so in this kind of game I'm helpless. I don't have all around heroes, I'm a counter pick guy, so being top stop in draft usually don't end well. | ||
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Cephiro
Finland1934 Posts
On July 01 2016 20:54 Leolio wrote: I play sustained damage, and it works well. Trading so much damage for an all in broken talent... nope. And again, I was 1st pick, I didn't have to adapt to a 5th pick Tracer. I agree we lack coordination and Thrall hurt us way too much. TBH I made a very mediocre game, but it's 1000 levels ahead of Dehaka and Tracer. I ask my team to go for late game and take no risks, and they still play like idiots so in this kind of game I'm helpless. I don't have all around heroes, I'm a counter pick guy, so being top stop in draft usually don't end well. > 1st pick Nova > Sustained damage > Trying to go lategame I mean I do agree based on checking the game that losing that game was not your fault, but there is no doubt you could've performed better either. Sustained damage versus their lineup is just asking to get nothing done as Nova. You're never going to win a sustained teamfight with no proper frontline (Dehaka) vs their ETC zoning and malf sustain heals. Thrall has self-heals, Li-Ming went for a tele+dominance build, meaning if she doesn't get deleted, you all will. We can look at every single 1v1 situation and the only one where sustained damage Nova > Burst damage Nova is Nova vs ETC. And that's not a 1v1 you should be wasting your time on. Imagine if you went for the snipe build, in any proper teamfight the murky will get deleted before he gets in range for octograb, leaving the enemy team at a deficit forcing them to rely on a good mosh/sundering (which can be counterplayed by your falstad) to take a 4v5, or retreat (which is what your lineup wants, since you have all the potential to chase them / pick a single person off as they're trying to retreat). Not to mention that you force the Li-Ming to go all in if she engages, with her not having to be afraid of an instant burst she can be aggressive with her teleport much more safely. Any sustain damage on ming is in vain if she gets the kill and heal from it, as with the cooldown reset + heal your sustain damage will not be enough to pick her off after that happens. With burst, even if she goes in for a kill and gets it, you're much more likely to be able to finish her off as she escapes. Thrall didn't even have to go for spell shield, which surely helped him fight against Dehaka for example (Got giant killer instead). Same with the ETC, who opted to go for the 80% slow on Face Melt (which, if anything, enables thrall & ming and even murky to pick you off with ease.) I just really don't see what value the sustained damage provided in that match versus a burst build. | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
We're at the last 2 picks, our second to last locks Sonya, our Tyrande speaks up right as our last pick locks in Tychus: "dps tyrande, stupid quest". Guess what. A tyrande that spams her E on cooldown at minions/the immortal, never uses W, uses Shadow Stalk to heal after she failed solo'ing mercs, and uses her Q whenever she remembers too (read: she is low health and Qs herself). Who then proceeds to flame her tanks for not peeling for her (protip: Do not facecheck bushes against Leoric Xul!). Yes. I certainly deserve to lose that game and get negative "favored" points. That was definitely representative of my personal skill. | ||
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Thezzy
Netherlands2117 Posts
Should still be fine, we still have all keeps and forts, they only have two keeps, we still have a level advantage. OK they'll get the objective with it, still fine because we can lose a fort without much worry. Instead, more people suicide in trying to save it. They now get to push all the way to the keep. This just kept going on and on right up to the core. We had twice their kills when they won the game. Is simple positioning and staying with the team really that hard? | ||
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Swisslink
2950 Posts
i just think it's stupid that someone who's missing 200 points to promote has to win twice in a row; but if someone's missing 201, he basically has to win 3 times in a row. And if the guy that has been missing 201 points loses the promo match, he most likely (due to the personal rank adjustment) has to win 3 games in a row again. And all that because he had 1 point more than the other guy. They should just give 200 points each win and -200 for each loss; i think that'd be more appropriate for a teamgame. | ||
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Leolio
France633 Posts
On July 02 2016 00:43 Cephiro wrote: > 1st pick Nova > Sustained damage > Trying to go lategame I mean I do agree based on checking the game that losing that game was not your fault, but there is no doubt you could've performed better either. Sustained damage versus their lineup is just asking to get nothing done as Nova. You're never going to win a sustained teamfight with no proper frontline (Dehaka) vs their ETC zoning and malf sustain heals. Thrall has self-heals, Li-Ming went for a tele+dominance build, meaning if she doesn't get deleted, you all will. We can look at every single 1v1 situation and the only one where sustained damage Nova > Burst damage Nova is Nova vs ETC. And that's not a 1v1 you should be wasting your time on. Imagine if you went for the snipe build, in any proper teamfight the murky will get deleted before he gets in range for octograb, leaving the enemy team at a deficit forcing them to rely on a good mosh/sundering (which can be counterplayed by your falstad) to take a 4v5, or retreat (which is what your lineup wants, since you have all the potential to chase them / pick a single person off as they're trying to retreat). Not to mention that you force the Li-Ming to go all in if she engages, with her not having to be afraid of an instant burst she can be aggressive with her teleport much more safely. Any sustain damage on ming is in vain if she gets the kill and heal from it, as with the cooldown reset + heal your sustain damage will not be enough to pick her off after that happens. With burst, even if she goes in for a kill and gets it, you're much more likely to be able to finish her off as she escapes. Thrall didn't even have to go for spell shield, which surely helped him fight against Dehaka for example (Got giant killer instead). Same with the ETC, who opted to go for the 80% slow on Face Melt (which, if anything, enables thrall & ming and even murky to pick you off with ease.) I just really don't see what value the sustained damage provided in that match versus a burst build. I really like your opinion here and I agree with most things, but there's a few things I can't agree on. It feels you speak as if they didn't rework Nova ? TBH I'm good with 2 heroes. Like, really good, way above my league (ETC, Nova). With the other heroes, I'll be less strong than everyone. But if I pick Nova or ETC, I know I give my team the advantage, just by picking them and playing well (though I didn't play very well on that game). I just need the team to play at a mediocre level at worst and we'll win. It seems like I'm bragging but I'm not, it's not ideal at all. I'm stuck with unsatisfying heroes more than 50% of the time. But it shouldn't be an impossible thing to ask that when I take Nova early in draft the team takes 2 good laners and no Tracer, and when we play the team soaks and doesn't feed. Having played roughly 700 or 800 HL games on her (but it's all erased, thanks Blizzard) I feel I understand her pretty well. Any Thrall would've had a fun time here. Dehaka solo tank, it's pretty much GG from start. Burst Nova died with the rework. I accepted it, and now I won't go for non viable builds. They wanted to add diversity, instead they removed 1 viable build (it used to be double decoy or crippling shot). Burst Nova doesn't exist anymore. Nova works as sustained damage now, and the strong point is she can work versus tanky teams. The only downside is you need a team who'll be able to soak, and even if it's the most basic thing in the game, it's pretty rare at mid diamond level. I know it seems stupid to 1st pick her, but you can't counter her anymore as she's not all-in anymore. And it seems stupid to go sustain, but it's the way to go now. And her burst isn't a lot lower than with Snipe Master. And it seems even more stupid to go late game, but she really gets strong at 16, especially when the opponent is tanky. | ||
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Cephiro
Finland1934 Posts
If you upload all your games into hotslogs, I won't try and convince you about the possible burst of Nova much further, since based on your stats you haven't even tried Snipe Master in an actual game. I have no idea what you're basing your claim on, as just because she doesn't 100-0 tanks anymore doesn't mean she still can't be built as a burst hero. She can still 100-0 with the correct build against the enemies you should pick her to counter with. She can instantly delete a lot of heroes as soon as they're missing a small chunk of HP, especially late in the game when she actually gets some power. While the sustain build certainly works versus certain heroes, there is zero reason to pick Nova for the sustained damage as there are many more better options available to fill that need. Not to mention even if finishing people off or killing them outright is the ideal outcome, even bursting a full HP squishy to low requires an instant reaction from the opponent. I completely disagree that Nova can't be countered anymore, as with a safe distance build she doesn't achieve nearly as much. The thing is, most of the time you don't really need to specifically counter Nova. One of the best way to utilize Nova is knowing when to take a fight and to what extent. As such, you need no more but take the decision away from Nova and make it yourself as an enemy. Nova never wants to be an situation where she is engaged upon by someone else first, as the only way she'll make out of it is if the enemy made a misjudgment or your team saves you. In my opinion, one of the most ideal ways to play Nova is playing her as a harass / supporting killer rather than the destructive sniper. She is very weak damage-wise earlygame, so it's unlikely that you'll get solo kills unless the enemy is completely out of position (and even then, it will be hard). Especially on medium-larger maps where enemies are forced to make longer rotations is where she excels. With the movement speed talent on level 1, she out-rotates most heroes with ease. What you want to do is to coordinate with whomever's lane you're helping out with. (Ideally, you want to kill wave-clearing heroes earlygame). A bit before you arrive, the corresponding laner should be trying to bait the enemy a little bit further in, possibly letting the enemy minions push a bit ahead to force the enemy out of their comfort zone. Then you come in with the slow and try your best in eliminating the enemy. If done correctly, you either get a kill, causing the opponent to lose XP unless they make a rotation, which enables you to go and further your advantage elsewhere. Even if you don't get a kill, you should get the enemy laner very low on health, forcing them to either use the fountain (which still enables even a solo Nova to bully them out of lane while the regen is happening, giving time for your laner to go and get a full heal in base), or TP back in which case they're again losing xp unless they rotate. Forcing this situation gives you straight up the perfect opportunity for a follow-up kill. Assuming the opponent is competent and has no global, you can wait along the way and get another pick-off when they make a rotation to soak the xp. Just going around, forcing your opponents out of the lane (focus on lanes with waveclear and/or no healer), occasionally getting kills sets you up for a great mid-game, which also makes burst Nova a lot more effective (having a fair level lead). Playing this way gives you a much better chance at ending the game and ensuring the win earlier, which is something you always want as a Nova. While she definitely gets a ton of power at L16 & L20 respectively, being behind the enemy just makes sure that any solokill potential the hero had is gone (excluding incredibly stupid misplays by the opponent). Reaching level 16 first is important as you'll want to use the window of talent advantage to setup your L20 game-ending teamfight. (Pushing a keep to lower HP, or even taking it down at the L16 talent advantage window). As long as you get a lead and don't throw it away, it'll make for an easy, quick finish. While you won't get to play with Nova's most powerful talents as much in this way of playing, I dare to claim it's one of the best ways to feel strong with the character and win games efficiently. | ||
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Leolio
France633 Posts
On July 04 2016 20:18 Cephiro wrote: The thing that I'm trying to get at is just because it works at a lower level of play, you shouldn't learn into it / make it a habit as you'll eventually suffer because of it. You're definitely right here. If you upload all your games into hotslogs, I won't try and convince you about the possible burst of Nova much further, since based on your stats you haven't even tried Snipe Master in an actual game. I have 3 accounts so you cannot really know for sure. ;-) TBH I gave up on this build a long time ago (a little after the last buff). I'm definitely open to check it again, I hope they fixed the talent (ie make the damn stacks appear onscreen). I mean, I'm all for picking Nova if she fits the comp and the enemy picks enable her, but you really just don't go into a game with "Pick Nova and build the team around her". I don't want people to build around me. There's a difference in "drafting so bad you start the game with very little hope to win" and "building around me". At my level, good drafting, not dying for nothing and soaking are still skills that most people lack. I completely disagree that Nova can't be countered anymore, as with a safe distance build she doesn't achieve nearly as much. The thing is, most of the time you don't really need to specifically counter Nova. That's what I meant. She isn't all-in anymore, with all the good and the bad it implies. She isn't "OMG they pick 2 tanks Uther Tassadar we have Nova GG bye" anymore, but she is not "4 squishies we won" either. It's more like Zeratul / Greymane. With the movement speed talent on level 1, she out-rotates most heroes with ease. What you want to do is to coordinate with whomever's lane you're helping out with. (Ideally, you want to kill wave-clearing heroes earlygame). A bit before you arrive, the corresponding laner should be trying to bait the enemy a little bit further in, possibly letting the enemy minions push a bit ahead to force the enemy out of their comfort zone. Then you come in with the slow and try your best in eliminating the enemy. You know how many people do that at Diamond 4 ? One in 5 or 8 people are able to do that. The level of play is terrible. Toxicity really fell, but the level of play dropped. Before Overwatch was in "open" beta the level of play was good, I had a 80% win streak on 25 games with Nova. Then IT happened. But yeah, that's how I play too. Reaching level 16 first is important as you'll want to use the window of talent advantage to setup your L20 game-ending teamfight. (Pushing a keep to lower HP, or even taking it down at the L16 talent advantage window). As long as you get a lead and don't throw it away, it'll make for an easy, quick finish. Level 16 is usually when we make the comeback. If we're ahead, the game is over almost every time. The problem is surviving till 16 with 3 keeps up. This just means my team has to play safe, but very often they won't. While you won't get to play with Nova's most powerful talents as much in this way of playing, I dare to claim it's one of the best ways to feel strong with the character and win games efficiently. If you want to play cloakie bursty, Zeratul's the man. Nova is just not efficient this way. I really think playing Nova means doing what she can do best, and that's the W build. Playing a less "efficient" build is a new concept to me. ^^ You definitely make me want to try it again. And then I'll come whine in this thread when I lose a lot of games. :-D This is a job for my 2nd account. ^^ | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
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Leolio
France633 Posts
On July 06 2016 08:34 Ej_ wrote: I can't promise that if I get matched with another 4-man party of complete dimwits in Unranked, I won't go on a killing spree. These are the worst. You can't say anything to them, and they'll still flame you for their own errors. Just got flamed by a guy for not having enough games on my account. So I explain "it's my 3rd account". He says I'm a lyar and all people who say that are liars. So, the discussion drags in chat until he still treat both of us liars a few times (my friend was smurfing too). What an idiot. You know the kind, the "This is the Internet so nobody's allowed to prove me wrong!" kind. Got a report for abusive chat. Still won the game but what an asshole. | ||
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Swisslink
2950 Posts
Once you're having a losing streak, you just can't get out of the demotion process anymore. It's simply mathematically impossible. Your MMR is lower than your rank -> You're getting opponents with an average MMR which is about equal to yours -> You should win 50% of the games -> IF you win 50% of the games, you lose more points than you gain, because due to the losing streak one win is worth less than one loss -> You're getting demoted over and over and over again. The only way to get out of it is basically to be lucky and somehow get a winrate that is higher than 50% - which, in a working matchmaking should not happen. And considering the fact the impact of a single player is really limited in heroes, these chances aren't too big neither. They should really get rid of those rank adjustments - it kind of kills the motivation to play on, because even if I win 50% of my games, I'm just losing ranks nonstop. | ||
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SChlafmann
France725 Posts
On July 07 2016 05:25 Swisslink wrote: I believe you are wrong, as on the long run, if you win 50% of your games the rank adjustments points tend to disappear. This is what I found from my own experience, but I might be wrong | ||
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Leolio
France633 Posts
Else we cannot play. Being at 0-1 stacks means you can waste it to help the team. Being at 4-5 stacks means you cannot miss a snipe. This is impossible to do properly if you have to hover on the ability to keep track. This talent is not only poorly designed, it's also visually broken. : / | ||
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