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On October 09 2015 06:24 MotherFox wrote:
given his place at 7th highest winrate on hotslogs: when do you draft murky with confidence in hero league? The best I can figure from his win rates vs other heroes is that there seems to be a pattern that he does well vs melee assassins?
Murky is a pretty big fuck you draft now that HL is restricted to 1-2 players, because they won't always have the co-ordination to bully him. On big maps with objectives that require you to leave lanes (Cursed Hollow, Garden of Terror and Sky Temple to be precise) he can really do some work.
It's easy for melee assassins (mostly Illidans) to think they can leap on him for an easy kill, but at later levels he can wreck them - and guess what, a melee assassin dying against Murky is far more damaging for their team than what them killing Murky a bunch of times will gain their team.
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United States4883 Posts
On October 09 2015 11:04 Larkin wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2015 06:24 MotherFox wrote:
given his place at 7th highest winrate on hotslogs: when do you draft murky with confidence in hero league? The best I can figure from his win rates vs other heroes is that there seems to be a pattern that he does well vs melee assassins? Murky is a pretty big fuck you draft now that HL is restricted to 1-2 players, because they won't always have the co-ordination to bully him. On big maps with objectives that require you to leave lanes (Cursed Hollow, Garden of Terror and Sky Temple to be precise) he can really do some work. It's easy for melee assassins (mostly Illidans) to think they can leap on him for an easy kill, but at later levels he can wreck them - and guess what, a melee assassin dying against Murky is far more damaging for their team than what them killing Murky a bunch of times will gain their team.
Yeah, the weird thing about playing against Murky is that you need to just group harder. It's a bit counterintuitive, but after level 10, you just need to roam around as a full group and make really aggressive decisions to force the other team to fight 4v5 as much as possible. Trying to go over to Murky and clear a wave as a single hero is simply an incorrect decision; stick with your team!
Sidenote: yes, Murky WRECKS melee assassins, so never attempt to engage Murky unless you have a support with Cleanse nearby for Octograb (and if you're the support stay clear the fuck away from Murky).
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noticed an illidan on the other team who had his account muted.
does it make me a bad person if I reserve octograb for him every fight so he literally never gets anything done? 
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On October 09 2015 14:34 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2015 11:04 Larkin wrote:On October 09 2015 06:24 MotherFox wrote:
given his place at 7th highest winrate on hotslogs: when do you draft murky with confidence in hero league? The best I can figure from his win rates vs other heroes is that there seems to be a pattern that he does well vs melee assassins? Murky is a pretty big fuck you draft now that HL is restricted to 1-2 players, because they won't always have the co-ordination to bully him. On big maps with objectives that require you to leave lanes (Cursed Hollow, Garden of Terror and Sky Temple to be precise) he can really do some work. It's easy for melee assassins (mostly Illidans) to think they can leap on him for an easy kill, but at later levels he can wreck them - and guess what, a melee assassin dying against Murky is far more damaging for their team than what them killing Murky a bunch of times will gain their team. Yeah, the weird thing about playing against Murky is that you need to just group harder. It's a bit counterintuitive, but after level 10, you just need to roam around as a full group and make really aggressive decisions to force the other team to fight 4v5 as much as possible. Trying to go over to Murky and clear a wave as a single hero is simply an incorrect decision; stick with your team! Sidenote: yes, Murky WRECKS melee assassins, so never attempt to engage Murky unless you have a support with Cleanse nearby for Octograb (and if you're the support stay clear the fuck away from Murky).
It's probably the level I play at (sub-2000 HL), but it seems very few folks grab cleanse other than uthers. rehgar, malf, and kharazim have to really sacrifice a lot of healing to take the skill, and lili doesn't even have the option for a long time. Maybe I should make a short list of characters to draft who can abuse this...
Also, almost no one takes uther. (And when I draft him, I semi-frequently get told not to because he's "so bad")
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On October 09 2015 15:20 MotherFox wrote:noticed an illidan on the other team who had his account muted. does it make me a bad person if I reserve octograb for him every fight so he literally never gets anything done?
No that makes you an awesome person! :D
How did you notice he had his account muted?
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On October 09 2015 17:51 Leolio wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2015 15:20 MotherFox wrote:noticed an illidan on the other team who had his account muted. does it make me a bad person if I reserve octograb for him every fight so he literally never gets anything done? No that makes you an awesome person! :D How did you notice he had his account muted?
He had a red/orange talking bubble over his name in the tab screen.
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On October 09 2015 15:28 MotherFox wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2015 14:34 SC2John wrote:On October 09 2015 11:04 Larkin wrote:On October 09 2015 06:24 MotherFox wrote:
given his place at 7th highest winrate on hotslogs: when do you draft murky with confidence in hero league? The best I can figure from his win rates vs other heroes is that there seems to be a pattern that he does well vs melee assassins? Murky is a pretty big fuck you draft now that HL is restricted to 1-2 players, because they won't always have the co-ordination to bully him. On big maps with objectives that require you to leave lanes (Cursed Hollow, Garden of Terror and Sky Temple to be precise) he can really do some work. It's easy for melee assassins (mostly Illidans) to think they can leap on him for an easy kill, but at later levels he can wreck them - and guess what, a melee assassin dying against Murky is far more damaging for their team than what them killing Murky a bunch of times will gain their team. Yeah, the weird thing about playing against Murky is that you need to just group harder. It's a bit counterintuitive, but after level 10, you just need to roam around as a full group and make really aggressive decisions to force the other team to fight 4v5 as much as possible. Trying to go over to Murky and clear a wave as a single hero is simply an incorrect decision; stick with your team! Sidenote: yes, Murky WRECKS melee assassins, so never attempt to engage Murky unless you have a support with Cleanse nearby for Octograb (and if you're the support stay clear the fuck away from Murky). It's probably the level I play at (sub-2000 HL), but it seems very few folks grab cleanse other than uthers. rehgar, malf, and kharazim have to really sacrifice a lot of healing to take the skill, and lili doesn't even have the option for a long time. Maybe I should make a short list of characters to draft who can abuse this... Also, almost no one takes uther. (And when I draft him, I semi-frequently get told not to because he's "so bad")
It's strange. In the pro meta, there is little doubt that Uther is the best support. But he is very hard to play to a top level - sitting with 3 active buttons is pretty hard work.
It's often simply that people don't know his full potential, most likely because they have played him a couple times and didn't put out huge healing numbers with him. They don't often see past the traditionally lower numbers Uther gets - they don't understand the rest of his utility.
And often, at lower levels, heroes like Lili can 'get away' with being picked because teams aren't co-ordinated enough to stun/silence her. I've had a lot of criticism when playing Sylvanas for example for waiting with wailing arrow until I could use it on a Lili or Nazeebo with Ravenous, for example. Most people at low levels throw every single cooldown into the fight the moment it starts. At lower levels, this is fine to do anyway, because it is unlikely you will play against a team that will punish you (or do the opposite).
I distinctly remember a game where I played Anub'arak and focused on burrow charging Lili every time she used her jugs in order to cancel it. My team was shocked at how effective it made our fights due to their lack of heals. It's simply this kind of realisation that a lot of players are lacking.
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I rarely feel as actively a part of team fights as when I play uther. I am not sure if I am more effective with him or not, though--- I frequently get lowest hero and seige, and I steadily feel more and more that comparing my healing numbers to the other team's healer is not good, since level differences and your team taking unnecessary damage can really inflate those numbers.
But still, I enjoy him for the same reason I enjoyed pre-nerf brightwing. Having 8 abilities on different cooldowns and deciding when to use each one is very fun, since it feels more like I am managing a character. This does make me think that uther will get a major rework in the near future, though: a lot of his utility is similar in feel to the utility pre-nerf brightwing had.
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On October 10 2015 01:58 Larkin wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2015 15:28 MotherFox wrote:On October 09 2015 14:34 SC2John wrote:On October 09 2015 11:04 Larkin wrote:On October 09 2015 06:24 MotherFox wrote:
given his place at 7th highest winrate on hotslogs: when do you draft murky with confidence in hero league? The best I can figure from his win rates vs other heroes is that there seems to be a pattern that he does well vs melee assassins? Murky is a pretty big fuck you draft now that HL is restricted to 1-2 players, because they won't always have the co-ordination to bully him. On big maps with objectives that require you to leave lanes (Cursed Hollow, Garden of Terror and Sky Temple to be precise) he can really do some work. It's easy for melee assassins (mostly Illidans) to think they can leap on him for an easy kill, but at later levels he can wreck them - and guess what, a melee assassin dying against Murky is far more damaging for their team than what them killing Murky a bunch of times will gain their team. Yeah, the weird thing about playing against Murky is that you need to just group harder. It's a bit counterintuitive, but after level 10, you just need to roam around as a full group and make really aggressive decisions to force the other team to fight 4v5 as much as possible. Trying to go over to Murky and clear a wave as a single hero is simply an incorrect decision; stick with your team! Sidenote: yes, Murky WRECKS melee assassins, so never attempt to engage Murky unless you have a support with Cleanse nearby for Octograb (and if you're the support stay clear the fuck away from Murky). It's probably the level I play at (sub-2000 HL), but it seems very few folks grab cleanse other than uthers. rehgar, malf, and kharazim have to really sacrifice a lot of healing to take the skill, and lili doesn't even have the option for a long time. Maybe I should make a short list of characters to draft who can abuse this... Also, almost no one takes uther. (And when I draft him, I semi-frequently get told not to because he's "so bad") It's strange. In the pro meta, there is little doubt that Uther is the best support. But he is very hard to play to a top level - sitting with 3 active buttons is pretty hard work. It's often simply that people don't know his full potential, most likely because they have played him a couple times and didn't put out huge healing numbers with him. They don't often see past the traditionally lower numbers Uther gets - they don't understand the rest of his utility. And often, at lower levels, heroes like Lili can 'get away' with being picked because teams aren't co-ordinated enough to stun/silence her. I've had a lot of criticism when playing Sylvanas for example for waiting with wailing arrow until I could use it on a Lili or Nazeebo with Ravenous, for example. Most people at low levels throw every single cooldown into the fight the moment it starts. At lower levels, this is fine to do anyway, because it is unlikely you will play against a team that will punish you (or do the opposite). I distinctly remember a game where I played Anub'arak and focused on burrow charging Lili every time she used her jugs in order to cancel it. My team was shocked at how effective it made our fights due to their lack of heals. It's simply this kind of realisation that a lot of players are lacking.
I think melee healers are hard to play in general. Whenever I play Rehgar I can pump out healing numbers, but I can't do any damage and am only half a player in a team fight. I know Rehgar's bite and lightning shield can contribute in meaningful ways to a team fight, I'm just not good at applying it to those situations.
Uther's the same way, plus whenever I see bad Uthers, they're always using with Holy Radiance on creep waves instead of saving it for actually healing. Worse still they'll use it for damage during a team fight! Plus he has the button overload issue lol.
Lili is a nice easy mode healer. She actually carries a higher winrate the higher league you break down on hotslog, but clearly is not a pro-level healer. Not really sure where the breakdown for her starting to suck occurs - tracking a Lili with hot feet active to stun isn't necessarily the easiest thing to do either.
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Sometimes it feels like using holy radiance for damage is the right thing to do. I'll use it on creep waves to get to health globes faster, if I don't think I'll need it for healing soon.
I've also secured many kills using it as a way to get that last little bit of damage in. Uther has issues catching up with people.
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Totally, what I said about Rehgar's damage contribution being non-trivial goes for Uther too. It's a balancing act to learn when to dps and when to hold back for mana/potential healing.
It's a little more intricate than newbie dps learning not to blow all skills pushing straight to gate and getting ganked because they pushed too far from safety with no-mana. But same concept imo.
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United States4883 Posts
On October 10 2015 02:06 MotherFox wrote:
I rarely feel as actively a part of team fights as when I play uther. I am not sure if I am more effective with him or not, though--- I frequently get lowest hero and seige, and I steadily feel more and more that comparing my healing numbers to the other team's healer is not good, since level differences and your team taking unnecessary damage can really inflate those numbers.
But still, I enjoy him for the same reason I enjoyed pre-nerf brightwing. Having 8 abilities on different cooldowns and deciding when to use each one is very fun, since it feels more like I am managing a character. This does make me think that uther will get a major rework in the near future, though: a lot of his utility is similar in feel to the utility pre-nerf brightwing had.
Uther should never top any numbers. His damage on everything is what you would expect from a support (aside from Alpha-status Tassadar ^^), which is weak, so don't expect any big numbers there. As for healing, all of Uther's healing is bursty and designed to save people at clutch times, which means that his healing numbers are really low in comparison to other healers. In terms of pure statistics on the score screen, Uther is pretty mediocre. But landing a clutch Divine Shield or getting a double stun on Illidan to lock him down or using Shrink Ray on a Butcher just as he's about to annihilate a teammate, etc., all of these things are what make Uther incredible at what he does, which is making plays :D.
As for using Holy Radiance aggressively, definitely go for it, especially during the laning phase. It's not a huge amount of damage, but it helps a lot to thin out creeps for a Kael'Thas or Leoric or someone to finish off, and pros do this a lot. Like you said though, make sure you're not using it when you might need to heal allies, which might be a bit more often in lower leagues and horrible soloQs lol.
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There doesn't seem to be a good source of information on this, so I'll ask here:
In heroes, there are many abilities which are channeled. Some of those abilities can be interrupted with stuns, some can be interrupted with forced movement abilities, and others can only be canceled with stasis(?) abilities.
Let me define the terms I'm using, since I'm not sure if they are actual game terms:
Stun abilities: Muradin's hammer throw, anub's spikes, johanna's condemn, etc. Basically, any ability that explicitly says it stuns in the tooltip.
Forced movement: Falstad's gust, tychus's grenade, medic's grenade, etc. Basically, any ability which forcibly moves the target but DOESN'T say it stuns.
Stasis abilities: abilities that remove a character from the battlefield. Stitches' gorge, zagara's maw.
Silence abilities: abilities that apply the "silence" modifier, which AFAIK just stop all active channels and prevent the using of abilities. (but not things like an abathur hat, which seems to be immune to all status abilities other than stasis)
So, the "simple question" is how to tell which abilities cancel which types of channels?
* Channels where the channeler can move clearly only get cancelled by stasis and hard stun. (eg lili's thousand cups, valla's strafe)
* Channels where the channeler can NOT move get canceled by forced movement abilities. (eg nazeebo's ravenous, etc's mosh pit)
* Some channels can not be interrupted by hard stun or forced movement. [Malfurion's ult]. Are there any others? Is there game logic behind this, or is it just a long list of exceptions?
Are valla, nazeebo, etc, and lili the only heroes with ults which can be cancelled? (oh wait, there's triple tap on nova--- any others?!)
Followup questions:
* Does silence cancel malfurion's tranquility?
* Does polymorph behave the same as silence for all purposes of breaking channels, or is it more similar to stasis abilties?
* Couldn't this have been made easier to comprehend?!?!?!!?!?
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Caldeum1976 Posts
On October 14 2015 04:07 MotherFox wrote:
There doesn't seem to be a good source of information on this, so I'll ask here:
In heroes, there are many abilities which are channeled. Some of those abilities can be interrupted with stuns, some can be interrupted with forced movement abilities, and others can only be canceled with stasis(?) abilities.
Stun abilities: Muradin's hammer throw, anub's spikes, johanna's condemn, etc. Basically, any ability that explicitly says it stuns in the tooltip.
Forced movement: Falstad's gust, tychus's grenade, medic's grenade, etc. Basically, any ability which forcibly moves the target but DOESN'T say it stuns.
Stasis abilities: abilities that remove a character from the battlefield. Stitches' gorge, zagara's maw.
So, the "simple question" is how to tell which abilities cancel which types of channels?
* Channels where the channeler can move clearly only get cancelled by stasis and hard stun. (eg lili's thousand cups, valla's strafe)
* Channels where the channeler can NOT move get canceled by forced movement abilities. (eg nazeebo's ravenous, etc's mosh pit)
* Some channels can not be interrupted by hard stun or forced movement. [Malfurion's ult]. Are there any others? Is there game logic behind this, or is it just a long list of exceptions?
Are valla, nazeebo, etc, and lili the only heroes with ults which can be cancelled? (oh wait, there's triple tap on nova--- any others?!)
Followup questions:
* Does silence cancel malfurion's tranquility?
* Does polymorph behave the same as silence for all purposes of breaking channels, or is it more similar to stasis abilties?
* Couldn't this have been made easier to comprehend?!?!?!!?!?
The general rule is that if the channeled ability allows for movement while channeling, only hard CC (stuns, polymorphs, and silences) will stop it, knockbacks won't. If the channeled ability is stationary (like Ravenous Spirit), any CC besides roots will stop it (so knockbacks work).
Tranquility is odd since it technically isn't channeled, it basically applies an aura around Malfurion so you can't interrupt it.
Followup questions:
Nothing stops Tranquility except VP and Maw I believe.
Polymorph should stop all channels (not actually sure about its interaction with Tranq though).
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Followup questions:
Nothing stops Tranquility except VP and Maw I believe.
I would assume gorge and anubarak's web would too?
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I've heard Malfurion's Tranquility and Leoric's Drain Hope referred to as "aura's". Once they're up they're staying up.
It's a little weird and afaik it's unique to them. Diablo's Lightning Breath used to work like this too (ie polymorph him and it's a squirrel breathing fire at you now), but they gave him unstoppable during it so no more weirdness.
Not really sure how Silence plays with those abilities, pretty sure polymorph does nothing to stop them as well.
Edit: Remove from play effects / stasis do interrupt these abilities - that would be Maw, VP, Gorge, Web Blast. Presumably Divine Palm will stop them too, but I've never seen that interaction.
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Caldeum1976 Posts
On October 14 2015 04:15 MotherFox wrote:I would assume gorge and anubarak's web would too?
Yes I forgot about that, Cocoon is actually considered the hard counter to Tranquility.
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ok, so let's call malf's tranquility an "aura". Is it really functionally the same as leoric's drain hope? Are there any other effects like this in the game? (maybe falstad's lightning strike? I don't think that's cancelled on stuns..)
I guess question #1 for artanis will be if his position swap ability can cancel channels similar to knockback effects...
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On October 14 2015 04:43 MotherFox wrote:
ok, so let's call malf's tranquility an "aura". Is it really functionally the same as leoric's drain hope? Are there any other effects like this in the game? (maybe falstad's lightning strike? I don't think that's cancelled on stuns..)
I guess question #1 for artanis will be if his position swap ability can cancel channels similar to knockback effects...
Pretty sure when you stun Falstad while he is "loading up" his blast, it's cancelled, same as Nova
What about Kerrigans's "aura"?
Same as Malf i'd say, you have to remove her from the battlefield
Artanis: I haven't read anything that states there is any CC involved... interesting question
My guess is, it behaves like knockback, canceling Nazeebo and stuff, but doesn't interrup Lili
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United States4883 Posts
On October 14 2015 04:43 MotherFox wrote:
ok, so let's call malf's tranquility an "aura". Is it really functionally the same as leoric's drain hope? Are there any other effects like this in the game? (maybe falstad's lightning strike? I don't think that's cancelled on stuns..)
I guess question #1 for artanis will be if his position swap ability can cancel channels similar to knockback effects...
It's all pretty complicated, but I'll do my best to shed some light. There are 3 types of "channeled" spells:
1) Channeled spells that allow the hero to move. This includes Strafe and 1000 Jugs and for some reason Mosh Pit. Displacement effects will not cancel the spell, but stuns will.
2) Channeled spells that require the hero to stand still. Ravenous Spirit and Pyroblast are the biggies on this one, but basically all spells that have a short channeling time like Sindragosa, Stage Dive, Shock and Awe, The Hunt, etc. can be interrupted in the same way. Either displacement spells or stuns will cancel these.
3) Like you say, "Aura" type effects. During these types of spells, heroes can typically move around and cast other spells. I'm pretty sure Medic heal also fits into this category, but I don't know for sure. In any case, they cannot be interrupted.
Artanis's position swap ability will be a displacement spell, most likely, meaning it will disrupt a large chunk of heroics, but not the aura-like ones or the channeled spells that allow people to move around already. Unless, of course, it's buggy and stuns anyway.
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EPT
