Shaman: Rockbiter Weapon is now 2 Mana Tuskarr Totemic can now only summon basic totems
Warrior: Execute is 2 Mana Charge gets the Warsong Commander treatment and is nerfed into utter oblivion and uselessness. Minion gets charge (not +2 attack) and cannot attack heroes. Costs 1 mana now
Hunter: Call of the Wild is 9 mana now
Neutral: Abusive Sergeant is now a 1/1 Yogg-Saron, Hope's End will stop casting spells if it is destroyed, silenced, transformed or bounced. Also undeniable confirmation of overload card not giving the overload as a bug that will be fixed.
Even as someone who has been praising Yogg since he was released, I think that the change is a good middle-of-the-road compromise between players wanting no change and players wanting it .
I really like these balance changes, they seem very well thought out. More than a short term meta shakeup though, I hope this is an indication that Blizzard will do more balancing in the future.
Agree with Abusive Sergeant and Call of the Wild nerfs. Don't think 2 mana Execute will make much difference. 2 mana Rockbiter is bad. Could at least have given it +1 dmg for that, now it's so bad value unless you can Doom Hammer it.
On September 29 2016 03:07 Azuzu wrote: I really like these balance changes, they seem very well thought out. More than a short term meta shakeup though, I hope this is an indication that Blizzard will do more balancing in the future.
I'm not against balance changes, but I don't want them to be too frequent either so that you have to make a new deck every time you start the game. And also to let things stabilize a bit.
During the early days of the game, I remember Blizzard considering buffing Al'Akir because he was deemed to be weak, but eventually he didn't because after testing he was deemed fine.
I've been waiting for the Abusive Sergeant nerf for years now. The card is just insane. Was expecting it to get nerfed the first time around right next to Leper Gnome.
Charge could have kept the plus attack I think, Tuskar less infuriating, Call was pretty strong, but that's a pretty big nerf to throw out, and it was the card which gave non-face hunter a nice win condition.
On September 29 2016 03:25 Dark_Chill wrote: Charge could have kept the plus attack I think, Tuskar less infuriating, Call was pretty strong, but that's a pretty big nerf to throw out, and it was the card which gave non-face hunter a nice win condition.
That's the problem with Call though. Its a one card win condition that you can have two copies of. Call into Call is basically unbeatable
This makes Yogg unplayable competetively. Call of the Wild was just blatantly OP and at 9 mana it is still a powerful card. Tuskar and Rockbiter are going to be phased out from the Shaman lists, midrange will probably take over as the Doomhammer Rockbiter combo becomes too clunky for facerush. Abusive Sergeant has always been too strong and will probably still be played in at least Zoo. Execute was always extremely strong and even more so as Warrior got more and more cheap activators, will still be a staple 2 of in any Warrior deck. Charge was just a gimmick spell that only fit into OTK decks, maybe now it can see some fun and interactive play.
I am surprised that they chose to change Rockbiter Weapon instead of Doomhammer. And while I like the Tuskarr Totemic change I dislike their reason for keeping Tunnel Trogg and Totem Golem as they are. They won't rotate out for another 6 months (at a rough guess) and Tuskarr rotates out at the same time. Personally, out of all the shaman cards I would have liked to seen nerfs to Doomhammer and Tunnel Trogg before Rockbiter and Tuskarr. The randomness of Tuskarr is annoying but the same is true of lots of randomness in Hearthstone.
I expected them to nerf Abusive Sergeant instead of Leper Gnome back when Standard was introduced. I always thought Abusive Sergeant was a bigger problem. Glad to see it eventually getting nerfed.
Charge is a problem, as are charge minions at times, but I do wonder if the bigger issue is Faceless Manipulator. I think preventing Faceless Manipulator from copying charge on minions would be nicer, if less elegant.
Rockbiter is what makes Doomhammer ridiculous, plus rockbiter was a good card on its own that could easily be squeezed into overload turns for tempo. Tunnel Trogg into Totem Golem will still be a strong combo but you're less likely to get blown out of the water by the follow up burst or crazy Tuskar value.
Yogg'Saron and Charge nerfs are kinda sad. Removing combo warrior and Yogg from the game aren't good things at all.
Yogg'Saron is specially sad because the card was just released 6 months ago and is a card that helped making meta slower. Also in my opinion is most amazingly unique card in Hearthstone. A fun card that doesn't have a negative impact on the meta. Even Undertaker lived longer, very sad for Yogg.
On September 29 2016 05:01 Origence wrote: Yogg'Saron and Charge nerfs are kinda sad. Removing combo warrior and Yogg from the game aren't good things at all.
Yogg'Saron is specially sad because the card was just released 6 months ago and is a card that helped making meta slower. Also in my opinion is most amazingly unique card in Hearthstone. A fun card that doesn't have a negative impact on the meta. Even Undertaker lived longer, very sad for Yogg.
I still think that Yogg, in a time of aggro and curvestone, was a necessary evil. It allowed you to have some comeback mechanic vs aggro decks, or something when you cannot curve out perfectly
I like the nerfs to tempo cards especially execute. Execute was being used in every warrior deck from aggro to control and at 1 mana it wasnt following the trend that removal should be a little awkward. At 2 mana it falls more in line with hex and poly.
The Rockbiter nerf is huge considering shaman often times needs that turn 1 rockbiter into keeping the coin. I can understand it was oppressive with doomhammer but with the way shaman overload cards work any nerf to up front mana cost removal is devastating.
Lastly Worgan charge OTK has just passed, RIP. I didnt much like the deck but HS needs more combo decks, alot more combo decks that are viable. What is left? Surprisingly Murloc paladin has done me good reaching rank 5 this month so i consider that viable but what else is there? Maly druid? So only 2 combo decks are standard viable as now its not promising for the game.
Maybe a nerf to tempo is a buff to freeze mage, we'll see.
These actually seem like highly reasonable nerfs. I am surprised :O Now if they just remove spirit claws and firelands portal (arena) from the game we can all go back to having fun.
This isn't only a nerf to worgen warrior this is also a nerf to patron with arcane giants and faceless, that can potentially deal 20-24 damage in one turn. Which makes me kind of sad as it's the best way of playing patron atm.
All other changes are great. Yogg is still good it just requires you to have more luck and not have him kill himself too quickly. The epic 40 spells yoggs are history tho.
I'd have been happy if call of the wilds only change was to have the boars charge removed, at least the opponent can react.
The way Yogg should always have been. It never made sense to me that he should keep casting spells after he left the battlefield.
Hunter takes a big hit, 8 mana was perfect to curve into. Now hunter probably needs more card-draw, or to go more in the smorc-face direction. Maybe 1 rag and 1 cotw is a way to go about it.
Which class won this nerf-round? I am really not sure... renolock, priest or druid? Control warrior? I am very unsure what to play once this hits.
On September 29 2016 09:59 Advantageous wrote: Yogg change is devastating... RIP Yogg decks.
GOOD! Fuck that extremely cheap, bull shit card. Its an automatic win when played and literally steals games. Its fucking cheating. BYE BYE! Now you window lickers that play those decks are going to have to figure out how to win without your handicap. Good Luck.
Pretty happy with the changes overall. They didnt nerf Ice Block which really sucks. Glad Cotw is 9 mana even though I do use the card. Its ridiculous at 8 mana. Then you play a SECOND one on turn 9. Almost impossible to deal with.
Glad too that Abusive sergeatnt got nerfed although it would have been better to have the attack boost changed to +1 and leave the body a 2/1. Still, anything that clams down zoo is great with me.
On September 29 2016 04:05 Saechiis wrote: Rockbiter is what makes Doomhammer ridiculous, plus rockbiter was a good card on its own that could easily be squeezed into overload turns for tempo. Tunnel Trogg into Totem Golem will still be a strong combo but you're less likely to get blown out of the water by the follow up burst or crazy Tuskar value.
I think shaman does not have any obvious cards to point at and say, 'That is exceptionally strong and is causing a problem.' It is not like Mysterious Challenger in secret pally. I think shaman has a lot of (very) good cards, and that is why shaman is such a good class now. It is more like the mid-range pally in that way. To stop shaman being strong could either be done by very minor changes to a lot of cards (changes such as making Totem Golem a 4/3 so it can be more easily killed by 2-mana minions/spells) or to reduce the number of good cards shaman has.
The Tuskarr Totemic nerf makes sense because it was one of those strong cards and had a lot of randomness about it, and their change weakens the card as well as making it less random. I'm less convinced about the reasoning for nerfing Rockbiter. Many classes have cards that are almost automatically included in decks (eg Fiery War Axe) and Blizzard have appeared quite content with such class cards, so it feels a little like they have picked Rockbiter Weapon because they wanted to weaken shaman and had no obvious card to target so they went for the a very common one.
I understand that, at 1-mana, Rockbiter Weapon is a very good tempo card and fits in well in awkward overload turns but I don't mind strong 1-mana cards. Imo there are two ways a 1-mana card can be a problem. If it can snowball quickly (such as Tunnel Trogg and Mana Wyrm) or if it is both a good early-game card and remains an effective card late in the game. That second part is my problem with Rockbiter Weapon, and that's only because of its potential when used with Doomhammer (or Al'Akir).
Moreover, another reason I'd prefer a Doomhammer nerf is that it restricts future cards because we are unlikely to get cheap neutral cards that can buff a weapon.
warrior deck was incredibly boring/aggravating to play against. have 20+ life, die in one turn. wow, that was fun. glad it is gone. more OTK decks need to be removed.
On September 29 2016 04:05 Saechiis wrote: Rockbiter is what makes Doomhammer ridiculous, plus rockbiter was a good card on its own that could easily be squeezed into overload turns for tempo. Tunnel Trogg into Totem Golem will still be a strong combo but you're less likely to get blown out of the water by the follow up burst or crazy Tuskar value.
I think shaman does not have any obvious cards to point at and say, 'That is exceptionally strong and is causing a problem.' It is not like Mysterious Challenger in secret pally. I think shaman has a lot of (very) good cards, and that is why shaman is such a good class now. It is more like the mid-range pally in that way. To stop shaman being strong could either be done by very minor changes to a lot of cards (changes such as making Totem Golem a 4/3 so it can be more easily killed by 2-mana minions/spells) or to reduce the number of good cards shaman has.
The Tuskarr Totemic nerf makes sense because it was one of those strong cards and had a lot of randomness about it, and their change weakens the card as well as making it less random. I'm less convinced about the reasoning for nerfing Rockbiter. Many classes have cards that are almost automatically included in decks (eg Fiery War Axe) and Blizzard have appeared quite content with such class cards, so it feels a little like they have picked Rockbiter Weapon because they wanted to weaken shaman and had no obvious card to target so they went for the a very common one.
I understand that, at 1-mana, Rockbiter Weapon is a very good tempo card and fits in well in awkward overload turns but I don't mind strong 1-mana cards. Imo there are two ways a 1-mana card can be a problem. If it can snowball quickly (such as Tunnel Trogg and Mana Wyrm) or if it is both a good early-game card and remains an effective card late in the game. That second part is my problem with Rockbiter Weapon, and that's only because of its potential when used with Doomhammer (or Al'Akir).
Moreover, another reason I'd prefer a Doomhammer nerf is that it restricts future cards because we are unlikely to get cheap neutral cards that can buff a weapon.
Although Shaman currently has a ridiculous number of cards that are just plain above the curve, the biggest offenders are quite clearly Totem Golem and 4-mana 7/7.
rockbiter: good change, card was too strong imo. both in early and lategame. did not have a downside at all (so played in every deck)
Tuskar totemic: finaly, still playable to swarm the board, but i think its a little weak now. 3/3 would have been a fair trade!
execute: good change, still an allround card, just a little less tempo.
charge: sad to see so much combo potential say good bye. not a good change, but i see where they are comming from. i think loosing emperor next year would have done the deal well enough.
call of the wild: hurts the card a lot, but was op as it was. fair nerv i guess.
abusive sergent: should have happend when they nerfed the gnome.
yogg: dead. woop woop.. back to lazy killing cards again blizz? its not even a fun card anymore, because he kills himself every time way before 10 spells. the fun thing about him was that he casted so many spells. better change would have been to make him cast spells, the same cost that you have played. since most clears are very expensive (5 mana +) it would have weakend him a lot, but still kept the fun aspect of the card. it would also have been possible to target specific mana cost which would have been quiet interessting.
All very good nerfs. Particularly happy to see yogg gone, back to playing hearthstone rather than roll the yogg dice game weve been playing for the last few months. Worst card they ever printed. Tuskarr is an excellent change for similar reasons.
Surprisingly impressive considering how variable their previous balance changes were.
Mage secaping the nerf is bull shit - Ice Block needs to be deleted or should cost 10 mana for it being an "play this and win now" card. Fucking cock sucker card.
Agree that Tuskar Totemic needed the nerf, but should now be a 3/3.
Very happy about execute.
Charge seems ok.
Abusive Sergeant seems ok
Call of the Wild is perfect. I have a hunter deck, and the fact I'll still definitely include it is a good benchmark that it was crazy op.
Yogg. Let's face it, everyone wanted to see a bit less of this guy. Nice.
Regarding Ice Block, all we need is a few more minions/spells that can do damage during your opponents turn. (e.g something like 5 mana, 5/5, if your opponent attacks or casts a spell, deal them 1 damage.)
I agree with what most people have said, all nerfs to appropriate cards and Yogg being slammed is easily the best part. As a not-so-serious player literally 75% of games being severely impacted by that card was making me contemplate quitting forever.
I also think that Ice Block and Alexstraza should be the next cards to look at, just considering the classic set since other serious offenders like Flamewaker and Tank Up are rotating out soon. Even if freeze mage isn't OP I still don't like how "uninteractive" those cards are. Alex is easy enough to change with the old suggestion of setting health to 20 I think, but we need more cards like Loatheb in the next expansion. Just something to ensure playing Ice Block isn't such an automatic win condition.
On October 01 2016 11:00 NovaAurora wrote: but we need more cards like Loatheb
You need to git gud. All top tier non-yogg decks (Totem shaman, discozoo, Dragon Warrior) don't care about spells. With the Yogg nerf why would we need another Loatheb?
P.S.: That's a rhetorical question, plz don't answer.
On October 01 2016 11:00 NovaAurora wrote: but we need more cards like Loatheb
You need to git gud. All top tier non-yogg decks (Totem shaman, discozoo, Dragon Warrior) don't care about spells. With the Yogg nerf why would we need another Loatheb?
P.S.: That's a rhetorical question, plz don't answer.
To bad you are getting an answer. Loatheb was the answer to combo decks. Anything comboy in nature feared loatheb. It was the one counter to them.
I think call of the wild is still gonna be a big threat/problem. Not sure one turn is really gonna change it all, perhaps the fact that you can't throw anything like an hero power might. It's still a step in the right direction.
I guess enough second accounts to get the murloc and bloat Hearthstone numbers were made so the time has come to send shaman down the road again. The tuskar change should have been made like 3-4 month ago. This way shaman is gone esp when Totem Golem leaves standard. I think the windfury rockbiter interaction is one of the more fun things shamans can do, be it with the weapon or All Akir.
Call change is good and hurts Hunter more than people think. You run out of steam so fast these days as Hunter esp with the Huntress build. One more turn is a big deal here.
Yogg change is also good, though I really like him. He is just way too strong giving tempo decks like unbelievable reach. 10+ Yogg is like 80% clear the board and refill your hand. "Tempo Mage" turned into Value Mage just with this card alone, being able to outvalue decks like CW.
Gutting Shaman should help the meta though. It is really oppressive with their early power. At least old Patron or Miracle let you play your deck for some turns.
Blizzard just failed really hard on Karazhan shifting the meta and this is the emergency patch nerfing every tier 1 deck to shift the meta this way. Well I can live with that solution, lets just hope the new meta is more interesting than where we at now, which shouldnt be hard.
Once again - can we look at Mage and start to calm that shit down a bit? Cabalists tome needs to cost 10 mana. The fucking secrets are a little irritating too.
On October 03 2016 07:31 Kenpark wrote: I guess enough second accounts to get the murloc and bloat Hearthstone numbers were made so the time has come to send shaman down the road again. The tuskar change should have been made like 3-4 month ago. This way shaman is gone esp when Totem Golem leaves standard. I think the windfury rockbiter interaction is one of the more fun things shamans can do, be it with the weapon or All Akir.
Call change is good and hurts Hunter more than people think. You run out of steam so fast these days as Hunter esp with the Huntress build. One more turn is a big deal here.
Yogg change is also good, though I really like him. He is just way too strong giving tempo decks like unbelievable reach. 10+ Yogg is like 80% clear the board and refill your hand. "Tempo Mage" turned into Value Mage just with this card alone, being able to outvalue decks like CW.
Gutting Shaman should help the meta though. It is really oppressive with their early power. At least old Patron or Miracle let you play your deck for some turns.
Blizzard just failed really hard on Karazhan shifting the meta and this is the emergency patch nerfing every tier 1 deck to shift the meta this way. Well I can live with that solution, lets just hope the new meta is more interesting than where we at now, which shouldnt be hard.
I think the Rockbiter could have given +4 attack at 2 mana, but then again, a lot of attack/removal buffs are just too strong in this game, and have been forever. Add to that their idea that the basic and standard cards should be... basically shitty, then okay I get it I guess.
Regarding Yogg, do you think that Yogg decks would play a card like DOOM! instead? If it's 80% clear the board and refill your hand, there's a comparison to be made there. But honestly Yogg seems to do so much more than that. Whenever he puts in a secret, it's completely unpredictable, and won't be removed from an eventual board clear. He draws cards, and also sometimes fills the board (I'm sure we've all played against a Yogg who finished up with Call of the Wild). There's just absolutely no way to prepare for the opponent's Yogg, and what it does is generally good for the person who plays it. Obviously sometimes it can be bad, but many times it's good, and sometimes it straight up wins the game.
Personally, I'll be glad if the card is weakened to being rarely or never used. I really do not like the feeling I've had for the past 2 months of "well I'm doing well, but none of that matters because he hasn't played Yogg yet."
Feeling vindicated thanks to the rockbiter change. I remember posting that it could/should be changed prestandard and someone whined at me for coming after "the worst class in the game"
On the topic of loatheb: it's an interesting card and is fairly unique. It was one of the few specific examples of counterplay that existed in the game and it would be nice to see blizzard at least try to replicate it a bit. Unfortunately in practice it became just the best five drop in the game to further increase the resilience of decks like secret paladin and zoo to aoe's. The counter play to combo decks has always been very aggressive play or abuse of armor/ice block, which is unfortunately not available to certain classes.
However I do think combo decks should have a place in the game as they lend balance to the control/Aggro paradigm. If modern combo decks still bother you keep in mind emperor is leaving standard which removes almost all Malygos and leeroy combo decks from the game entirely
On October 04 2016 16:42 mandelised wrote: Question do i dust all these cards and then wait to get in packs ? and if i really miss them can just craft at no loss ?
You get full dust refund for the changed cards so you can always re-craft them again at not real cost.
I dusted all the changed cards (except for Yogg) to get some other missing epics. I can just re-craft them again at a later date if needed
Nothing new really, but nice to see some stats backing it up. So when you play Tuskarr on turn 2/3 and roll Totem Golem, you have a 69% chance to win the game. With that many shamans around and everybody running two Tuskarr, this was just very very frustrating to play against. I think Tuskarr is dead now, except for heavy totem decks with like Primal Infusion and stuff. Your regular midrange/face shaman will def cut it.
@Dromar
He was obv way better than Doom. I guess thats a given. You can clear one minion draw more, get secrets, sometimes even a board etc. He was too strong, but not too much rng imo. Missing like a turn four play is more rng so to speak than Yogg. And it's not like there is zero strategy involved. Forcing the enemy Yogg, before you play yours, deciding when to dump your spells to play him,. keeping fatigue in mind etc. I liked to play Yogg decks. Every spell you play, felt like you also build for sth bigger. Also the possibility for a comeback, even in the worst game state was sth that I liked. Playing like Tempo Mage vs CW and running out of steam is one of the most unfun things in hearthstone. You draw one card and play it, while he sits there with a full hand, taking one min per turn, choosing his many options. With Yogg you had that comeback mechanic, even if it is only a small chance. In the end though, its a good nerf because in mage and druid he was just too op. Generating spells + Yogg was just too good.
The biggest issue with Tuskarr Totemic was it is a design constrant for future cards. As long as it existed in it's former form Blizzard could never make any "big" totems, imagine a 10 cost 8/8 Totem - bad on it's ownbut totally batshit insane if summoned for free. Glad they changed Tuskarr instead of any other Totem.
Dont think Yogg change will be that big of a deal, it's a "halp save me pls yogg-senpai" card already and should in most cases still fire off a lot of spells before dying. Think it will still be played in druid as it's the only way for it to recover. It's even more RNG now. Time will tell.
Execute and Charge were fantastic changes and much needed. Execute at one mana was blantantly overpowered for any sort of tempo deck and way too easy to fit into a turn without floating excess mana, one mana is a huge deal. Charge like Tuskarr Totemic was a design constraint and OTK decks are very much not in the spirit of Hearthstone so a good change, depending on future cards Charge could very well still be really strong.
Rockbiter and Abusive nerfs are fine, their ability to make a low cost minion trade up or being a 1 mana 2, 3 or 6 damage spell was lingering on the boarder of being super strong and too good. In the meta of curvestone they are too strong.
Actually suprised they nerfed Call of the Wild. Yes it's a frustraing card and auto include, but it's a card hunter sort of need and all classes have auto includes anyway.The inability to weave in a hero power is pretty big.
On October 04 2016 16:42 mandelised wrote: Question do i dust all these cards and then wait to get in packs ? and if i really miss them can just craft at no loss ?
You get full dust refund for the changed cards so you can always re-craft them again at not real cost.
I dusted all the changed cards (except for Yogg) to get some other missing epics. I can just re-craft them again at a later date if needed
Dusted the lot as you say if they are still includes i can craft and have lost nothing
I think I really underestimated the effect the nerf would have on Shaman. I think it's still good, but weakening Tuskarr Totemic takes away a good amount of free wins, and it's super easy to replace. My initial thought was Argent Horserider, but that's for a more aggressive Shaman, which was also impacted by the nerf to Rockbiter combos. So overall, I think the nerfs were really well-placed.
As a side note, cards I would like to see in the next expansion:
3 mana neutral 3/4 Battlecry: If you have 8 or more mana crystals, gain 6 life.
4 mana neutral 1/1 Charge. Dies at the end of the turn. Deathrattle: Deal 2 damage to all minions.
On October 05 2016 06:47 Dromar wrote: I think I really underestimated the effect the nerf would have on Shaman. I think it's still good, but weakening Tuskarr Totemic takes away a good amount of free wins, and it's super easy to replace. My initial thought was Argent Horserider, but that's for a more aggressive Shaman, which was also impacted by the nerf to Rockbiter combos. So overall, I think the nerfs were really well-placed.
As a side note, cards I would like to see in the next expansion:
3 mana neutral 3/4 Battlecry: If you have 8 or more mana crystals, gain 6 life.
4 mana neutral 1/1 Charge. Dies at the end of the turn. Deathrattle: Deal 2 damage to all minions.
Tuskar was probably a necessary nerf, was as stupid as Shredder before, though now it's not really an include. Rockbiter being in the base set hits pretty hard, and it means Shaman will have to get new really good cards each new expansion. The heal card actually seems pretty cool, and if you change it to 3 damage, would really help the classes who want to play more control but don't have the clears for it.
After the patch, I immediately took Yogg out of all my decks. I think this may have been premature...
Since the patch, I've seen more Yoggs than usual it seems, and every single one of them unfairly swung the game in my opponent's favour. One game in particular, the guy played him while ahead on board, health and cards, but still managed to end the turn massively ahead, somehow. I.e. casting draw spells and winning multiple 1/4s in a row.
I'm sure he'll be played less in tournaments, but everyone still seems to be running him on ladder. I'm not sure the change goes far enough from what I've seen so far.
On October 06 2016 17:20 Hearken wrote: After the patch, I immediately took Yogg out of all my decks. I think this may have been premature...
Since the patch, I've seen more Yoggs than usual it seems, and every single one of them unfairly swung the game in my opponent's favour. One game in particular, the guy played him while ahead on board, health and cards, but still managed to end the turn massively ahead, somehow. I.e. casting draw spells and winning multiple 1/4s in a row.
I'm sure he'll be played less in tournaments, but everyone still seems to be running him on ladder. I'm not sure the change goes far enough from what I've seen so far.
That's what they said they wanted, right? Just to make him too unreliable for top players, not make him unplayable.
Yogg change seems good but I need more data to decide. A slight reduction in Yogg density is welcome.
Any shaman nerf is fine by me in prisiple and good fucking riddance to tuskarr totemic.
Execute nerf has actually hurt me quite a bit in wild but dragon warrior was the best standard deck so I guess it's understandable. Still, rock biter and execute nerfs seem a bit short-sighted?
On October 06 2016 17:20 Hearken wrote: After the patch, I immediately took Yogg out of all my decks. I think this may have been premature...
Since the patch, I've seen more Yoggs than usual it seems, and every single one of them unfairly swung the game in my opponent's favour. One game in particular, the guy played him while ahead on board, health and cards, but still managed to end the turn massively ahead, somehow. I.e. casting draw spells and winning multiple 1/4s in a row.
I'm sure he'll be played less in tournaments, but everyone still seems to be running him on ladder. I'm not sure the change goes far enough from what I've seen so far.
That's what they said they wanted, right? Just to make him too unreliable for top players, not make him unplayable.
I guess so, just seems like it's still such a solid card.
I had presumed that the nerf would stop most people playing it, leaving it as a fun and silly option for folks at rank 20.
Hadn't expected to still see it in 50% of decks at rank 10.
Midrange shaman is still a tier 1 deck, even after the nerfs, which is saying a lot. Cut the Tuskarr and Rockbiter, play 28 shaman cards and still be tier 1. The rockbiter nerf is shortsighted imo. All Akir and Doomhammer are gone with the Rockbiter nerf. Like I said before, for me the windfury rockbiter interaction is kinda what makes Shaman unique. As an old Wow player Shaman is Bloodlust and Windfury. Nothing much has changed though, Zoo still running Abusive, Hunter Call of the Wild. Still it should help all tier 1 decks got a nerf, so meta should change at least a little. We will see I guess. But it is kinda obvious, that with the nerfs the next strongest decks got better. Rogue comes to mind.
No idea about Yogg yet. Faced only 1 in like 20 games and he sucked. He should be better with having an own board now, since chances are higher, he doesnt get killed immediately. But then it is also risky you blow a lead. Personally I think he is gone from tier 1-2 decks.
Regarding Yogg: Even after the nerf I expect Yogg will still be played because it gives the chance of a comeback and comeback cards are mostly terrible. What is druid supposed to use instead? Without Yogg, a druid is almost certainly dead as soon as they have lost board control. Some classes have options; Brawl and Twisting Nether and Equality have their flaws but at least they can help clear the board.
I am not saying that every class needs to have such a comeback card but for those classes that currently don't have a comeback card, Yogg is an attractive option.
On October 07 2016 03:18 Melliflue wrote: Regarding Yogg: Even after the nerf I expect Yogg will still be played because it gives the chance of a comeback and comeback cards are mostly terrible. What is druid supposed to use instead? Without Yogg, a druid is almost certainly dead as soon as they have lost board control. Some classes have options; Brawl and Twisting Nether and Equality have their flaws but at least they can help clear the board.
I am not saying that every class needs to have such a comeback card but for those classes that currently don't have a comeback card, Yogg is an attractive option.
Well always can play Deathwing. No for real, we have too see how good it is the next weeks. Yogg was also way more than a comeback card. More like a value card. Low on cards, not being able to clear opponent single threat ? Well just Yogg to refill hand, get some secrets going etc. Druid also never had a comeback card in this games history and were prominent anyways, just because of Innervate and Wild Growth.
I just think its hillarious that two of Shamans strongest cards are nerfed and right now Sjow is playing Midrange Shaman at legend rank 5 with 27 shaman cards. I was questioning Maelstrom right from the beginning. What exactly was the thought process behind giving Shaman an empowered arcane explosion, when they already have another strong AOE ? That card shifted the Zoo mu in Shamans favor, which was keeping them in check before Kara hit.
Kara was just a big failure and you really have to question the expertise on Blizzards end.
On October 07 2016 07:16 Kenpark wrote:Druid also never had a comeback card in this games history and were prominent anyways, just because of Innervate and Wild Growth.
Combo (RIP) had something to do with that as well. A lot of times you were simply able to kill the opponent never mind the board. Like a zoo who had tapped a bit for instance. Whereas now you just die if Yogg doesn't save you. And he'll be doing that a lot less now. So druid might be a bit screwed.
What I meant to say was: Combo decks don't need comeback cards. They have the combo. And druid had the best combo deck.
On October 07 2016 03:18 Melliflue wrote: Regarding Yogg: Even after the nerf I expect Yogg will still be played because it gives the chance of a comeback and comeback cards are mostly terrible. What is druid supposed to use instead? Without Yogg, a druid is almost certainly dead as soon as they have lost board control. Some classes have options; Brawl and Twisting Nether and Equality have their flaws but at least they can help clear the board.
I am not saying that every class needs to have such a comeback card but for those classes that currently don't have a comeback card, Yogg is an attractive option.
Well always can play Deathwing. No for real, we have too see how good it is the next weeks. Yogg was also way more than a comeback card. More like a value card. Low on cards, not being able to clear opponent single threat ? Well just Yogg to refill hand, get some secrets going etc. Druid also never had a comeback card in this games history and were prominent anyways, just because of Innervate and Wild Growth.
I am not saying druid necessarily needs a comeback card to be good, but if you give them the option of playing one then I am not surprised that they include it.
And as d00p said, druid used to have the combo so it wasn't so important to have a comeback card. You don't need a comeback card (or late-game value card) if you can kill them.
On October 07 2016 22:20 MrMike wrote: Shaman is still 100% overpowered in every way possible. Fucking asshole class. Everyone using it should go kill themselves. Brainless, aggro shit.
User was temp banned for this post.
This is the first time I've seen the hammer come down on the TL-HS site. I feel like I should have some kinda celebration to commemorate the occasion.
So Midrange Shaman is the top dog right now. But imo that has more to do with a lot people still playing the "old" decks. Midrange Shaman strongest point is early drops/removal and AOE, which shines against the faster meta of prenerf. Right now the meta is slowing though, because the Shaman doesnt have any burst from hand anymore. "New" decks like Dragon Pala/Druid, or decks that got blown out before like Maly Rogue and Reno Warlock are making a comeback. Bookworm is one of the strongest cards of Karazhan and in these kinda slower board control wars it really shines. Great body and lots of targets for a big tempo swing. I expected Dragon Priest or Pala to rise, but right now even some Druids seem to play dragons. The dragon package is just really strong with the core of the 3/6 taunt, Corruptor and Bookwyrm. Thats a pretty insane 4/5/6 curve. The 1/3 discover is also pretty good because there arent many really bad Dragons and they help to curve or add tremendous value vs slower decks. Add everyones favourite card Azure Drake and the whole dragon package becomes really strong.
On October 12 2016 14:09 Kenpark wrote: So Midrange Shaman is the top dog right now. But imo that has more to do with a lot people still playing the "old" decks. Midrange Shaman strongest point is early drops/removal and AOE, which shines against the faster meta of prenerf. Right now the meta is slowing though, because the Shaman doesnt have any burst from hand anymore. "New" decks like Dragon Pala/Druid, or decks that got blown out before like Maly Rogue and Reno Warlock are making a comeback. Bookworm is one of the strongest cards of Karazhan and in these kinda slower board control wars it really shines. Great body and lots of targets for a big tempo swing. I expected Dragon Priest or Pala to rise, but right now even some Druids seem to play dragons. The dragon package is just really strong with the core of the 3/6 taunt, Corruptor and Bookwyrm. Thats a pretty insane 4/5/6 curve. The 1/3 discover is also pretty good because there arent many really bad Dragons and they help to curve or add tremendous value vs slower decks. Add everyones favourite card Azure Drake and the whole dragon package becomes really strong.
Shaman is strong still but IMO Paladin is becoming the most irritating class out there. Yeah, really. In Wild mode you have too many try-hards still playng secret-cancer Paladin which is the worst thing to ever happen to humanity. Then in standard mode you have this horrible NZoth/Healing deck which drags games out forever and they have too many ways to heal, clear the board, reduce your minions attacks, and everything else. It sucks.
Id love to see some Dragon Pallys but I havent seen one yet. Dragon priest is actually decent and I love using that deck but its NOT a deep-ladder climber at all. Fun to play but plenty of bad matchups. I dont see many dragon decks at all shich is sad. I mean...whats cooler than a dragon? NOTHING!