Healthcare Reform in the US - Page 57

chessmaster

United States268 Posts

March 23 2010 21:26 GMT

#1121

short sighted mother fuckers. are you really going to say that losing the colonies which happen to turn into the world leading super power had nothing to do with or maybe concede that it was central to the eventual fall of the british empire. either way not important to healthcare.

this is called a post hoc fallacy ..... basic faulty logic .. among other fallacies im sure but the first i noticed

KwarK

United States44239 Posts

March 23 2010 21:27 GMT

#1122

On March 24 2010 06:17 Xenixx wrote:
short sighted mother fuckers. are you really going to say that losing the colonies which happen to turn into the world leading super power had nothing to do with or maybe concede that it was central to the eventual fall of the british empire. either way not important to healthcare.

We didn't lose the colonies in any sense that mattered. What powered the British Empire was not direct tax revenue but rather a 15% annual return on an overseas investment. Empire was just the outcome of political lobbying by bankers to stabilise regions and protect their investments. It was the speculation in trade that came first, then the investment in infrastructure and then finally, if there was some threat to the infrastructure, direct control. The flow of money from America to London continued for over 100 years after the revolution, the creation of the United States was financed by English speculation and it was an extremely lucrative market.

You're seeing empire as the colour shaded in on a map. That is quite simply not how the British Empire existed, what got English kings wet was not the idea of millions of subjects to tax but rather thousands of square miles full of raw materials to invest in at a healthy return. If some other government is willing to protect your investment that just makes things even easier.

Basically the United States after the revolution was the model colony which England sought for the entire 19th century to recreate. A place full of English speaking people and raw materials with a lot of room for massive economic growth if only someone would loan them some money and create some mutually beneficially trade partnerships.

KwarK

United States44239 Posts

March 23 2010 21:30 GMT

#1123

On March 24 2010 06:23 Xenixx wrote:

Show nested quote +

On March 24 2010 06:17 KwarK wrote:

On March 24 2010 06:12 Xenixx wrote:

On March 24 2010 06:05 KwarK wrote:

On March 24 2010 05:57 Xenixx wrote:

On March 24 2010 05:44 Neverborn wrote:

On March 24 2010 05:35 KwarK wrote:

On March 24 2010 05:31 Xenixx wrote:

On March 24 2010 05:21 ghrur wrote:

On March 24 2010 04:53 Xenixx wrote:
[quote]

Huh thats odd, everyone else in the world still entertains the idea that democracy means one thing and representative democracy means another thing... I guess we're all not as bright as Kwark from the UK.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/democracy
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/representative democracy

You could just say you were wrong and save face at this point.

We've already established that you don't know what you're talking about but just to keep that going. When did I say that we kicked the shit out of 18th century England for democracy? I'll reiterate that we fought that war over other people trying to tell you what to do simply. While yes it may not be popular, some folks have admitted to being sore over that situation. How could you not be? England fell apart after losing the colonies. But thats another matter.

Hey stereotypes reflect how brilliant you are Kwark. Don't they? All us Americans are just remarkably ill educated and we don't know no better.

Tell me then o' brilliant jackass, what game are you playing at? Educate me on the founders. Tell me something I don't know. Tell me about the men who sat down and worked through compromises 'til at last the constitution remained.

What the hell are you TALKING about?
England fell apart after the World Wars, not losing America. England still had a huge empire up until WWI. Hell, it was the age of fucking imperialism before WWI where England, France, Germany, etc. duked it out for power in Africa and China. Furthermore, England had the industrial revolution in the 1800s, a little after they lost America. If having an industrial revolution that put you on top of the economic world meant you fall apart, okay then, you're completely right.
And yes, you ARE remarkably ill educated about European History. Have you ever even taken a course on it? God, England falling apart after losing America is a JOKE. Stop tarnishing the reputations of Americans in European history alright? You clearly don't know any of it.

Random note about the founders: Thomas Jefferson was a PIMP. :p

oh please, losing the colonies in that war was so MONUMENTAL for the british fall you can't argue that wasn't the turning point.

lol
The colonies were lost a good 30 years before the rise of Britain to the status of superpower and 150 years before the fall.
Britain with the 13 colonies = not superpower
Britain without the 13 colonies = superpower

Your conclusion, losing the 13 colonies caused the decline of Britain as a superpower.
My conclusion, you waste my time.

Nicely done, Kwark

Oh shame shame, britain wasnt a superpower during the 18th century? oh lordie... but who cares its my opinion and not central to my argument

No, it wasn't a superpower during the 18th century. France and Spain were both more powerful nations and England had recurring issues in both Ireland and Scotland. England was a European great power but you have to remember that England was conquered by the Dutch in 1688. It took industrialisation which happened after the American revolution to make Britain a world power.

You can use the "it's my opinion, I'm entitled to my opinion, I don't have to justify my opinion, I can think what I like, I CAN'T HEAR YOU, LALALALALALALA" defence as much as you like but it doesn't change the fact that your opinion is fucking retarded. You can't argue that losing the colonies caused England to fall as a superpower when the colonies were lost before England became a superpower and a very long time before England fell as a superpower.

im tryign to get off it, its not important. its just my opinion of the start of decline for the fall of the british empire, very similiar to the roman empire falling. there is no exact incident but some feel it started with this or that.

im not trying to say its my opinion and im entitled... its an opinion, it cant be proven as fact, thats my point on that matter. is the matter clarified? (i dont care to derail the thread in that way, just a tangent that popped in there) you're too fascinated with that part of my argument, what about the rest?

Opinions aren't these magical things which are above judgement. Just because it's an opinion doesn't mean you're not allowed to measure it in terms of factual accuracy.
If I were to say "In my opinion the Roman Empire fell because the Empire was made of butter and climate change caused the butter to melt" then you'd not go "well, I don't buy it but it's his opinion so that's fair enough". You'd say "that's fucking retarded".

It is in the spirit of that that I say it's fucking retarded to suggest something that happened before the emergence of a nation caused the downfall of a nation. It may be your opinion but that doesn't make it any less stupid, it just makes you stupid to have it.

im not saying its above judgement, im saying its fucking pointless to argue about an opinion kid. you can't prove im wrong and i cant prove im right. its a FUCKING opinion. you're absolutely allowed to say its "fucking retarded", because you have a different opinion and can support it just as i can support my opinion. do you see how that works?

in any case im going to say now that you cant understand where im coming from when i say losing the colonies was the beginning of the end for the empire. had they held onto them... eh? youre too short sighted to see that big picture.

The problem I'm having is that there is more evidence for my butter theory regarding the Roman Empire than there is your effect before cause theory regarding the colonies.

Xenixx

United States530 Posts

March 23 2010 21:35 GMT

#1124

On March 24 2010 06:25 Alizee- wrote:
So I'm confused, the thread is entitled healthcare reform in the US, but I see tools chime in from other countries that likely share different views and at the very least will feel no effect from this legislation.

By the way, this is about as socialist in nature as you can get. Its the only tax that will exist where simply being a legal citizen, I have to pay taxes, be fined if I don't, or have the IRS--with their 18,000 new agents--to enforce such refusal to pay said fines. Gotta have auto insurance..if you drive, gotta pay sales tax...if you buy thing, gotta pay your healthcare tax...if you exist. That's bullshit to me, its unconstitutional and until I decide I want healthcare I'm not paying to keep some fat ass alive any longer than they need to.

yup, 4 years from now we actually get the system as i understand it. the taxes take effect NOW but the system doesnt until 4 years from now? but i dont think anyone is arguing that its not socialist anymore, for some reason people generally seem to agree that they like socialism

chessmaster

United States268 Posts

March 23 2010 21:36 GMT

#1125

i challenge you to show me one historian with even mediocre credentials that shares this view /// and most of the decline of the brittish empire is based on recorded facts .. not opinions ... lets here it for the butter theory .. i have to agree with ya kwark i find your butter theory more appealing lmao

Xenixx

United States530 Posts

March 23 2010 21:44 GMT

#1126

On March 24 2010 06:36 chessmaster wrote:

Show nested quote +

much more interested in healthcare in the healthcare thread ladies. cant get off it for the life of me. fuck you two argue like girls.

pm me if you want to debate the fall of the british empire.

{CC}StealthBlue

United States41117 Posts

March 23 2010 21:50 GMT

#1127

gilligan

Sweden36 Posts

March 23 2010 21:57 GMT

#1128

what about that stealthblue

Apexplayer

United States406 Posts

March 23 2010 21:57 GMT

#1129

Stealth... ok, editing is a huge part of speech writing... what's your point?

Mindcrime

United States6899 Posts

March 23 2010 22:02 GMT

#1130

On March 24 2010 06:25 Alizee- wrote:
By the way, this is about as socialist in nature as you can get.

Is that so? Which means of production are now owned in common?

chessmaster

United States268 Posts

March 23 2010 22:05 GMT

#1131

yeah i ve spent the last 2 days reading this bill ,,, and although i agree helathcare is a huge mess in this country ... im not so sure this is going to improve it ... in fact the costs may go up acccording to some research ive found ... however its increasingly hard to find unbiased interpretations , and the bill itself may as well be written in Greek for all the financial sense it makes ( no pun intended) .....everyones barking socialism is evil blah blha ,, but so is corparate greed at the expense of others (i.e toxic waste dumping) they will actual get out the abacus and decide if a lawsuit is more cost effective than basically murdering families through faulty business practice ... hell e.p.a isn't enough ; knowingly dumping toxins into a public water supply should be criminal in nature imo .. that said certain things maybe should be considered outside freemarket becuase humans do not have the decency to govern them properly themselves through freemarket ( i mean should health really be something we want to try to turn a huge profit at , to me breaking even would good enough as long as people are getting care ..( i.e nonprofit organiztions running it ) but imo this bill is not going to accomplish what it is trying to . human nature is the real problem here or the nature of the ruling economical class .. it has historically shown it doesnt give a damn about the eco-slaves it uses to stay in power .. why would health care be any different .. ? i no longer trust the federal government , i sure as hell dont trust corporations ,,,,, the problem is both parties and the lobbyist are part of the same 2 headed dragon .. and the poeple are never goona get what they want until true change happens in this country .. death to the federal dragon .. we need a return of states rights ...so in this since i do not support this bill at the moment , however i don't support the current system either . what we need is to abolish the 2 party system and either make elections publicly funded or force to the television companies to donate so many hours of free tv air time for elections per pres election and for local elections so costs are cut down ( most costs go toward tv time ) this would kill lobbying which nothing is goona get done in this country while the corporations are running it ,,, but thats just my 2 cents .my point is these are all surface issues ... like the swelling above internal bleeding .... the problem is states have no rights and lobbying is out of control , not to mention the banking problem ....our government has turned into everything the founding fathers feared ( end of rant )

retrodot

United States9 Posts

March 23 2010 22:15 GMT

#1132

entrepreneurship is dead folks. Get over it. Add an S and an R after the U.S. and you pretty much get what we have now.

KwarK

United States44239 Posts

March 23 2010 22:17 GMT

#1133

On March 24 2010 07:15 retrodot wrote:
entrepreneurship is dead folks. Get over it. Add an S and an R after the U.S. and you pretty much get what we have now.

lol
Yeah... the United States today and the USSR are pretty much the same thing. Thanks for your input.

chessmaster

United States268 Posts

March 23 2010 22:17 GMT

#1134

fuck you two argue like girls.

well now we add ad hominem to your list of employed fallacy , and gender bias lol . however the post hoc fallacy was wayyyyy more humorous ...

Xenixx

United States530 Posts

March 23 2010 22:25 GMT

#1135

On March 24 2010 07:17 chessmaster wrote:

Show nested quote +

well now we add ad hominem to your list of employed fallacy , and gender bias lol . however the post hoc fallacy was wayyyyy more humorous ...

you are such a nerd, i feel like insulting your mother. what went wrong!? WHAT WENT WRONG!?

socialism isn't good for the US because were a rep. democracy from our start, thats really not in our best interest. we didn't get to where we're at now because we've had fantastic social programs.

TanGeng

Sanya12364 Posts

March 23 2010 22:27 GMT

#1136

@ chessmaster

Love the idea of states rights, revival of state sovereignty, interposition, and nullification. I'm anticipating those developments as the most important fallout of this health care bill. Reading the bill, it does feel like shuffling some costs around without fixing structure problems or it giveth what it taketh away. The shuffling sort of feels like moving some deck chairs around.

btw... gender bias and non-pc jokes are funny. Just be careful of your company.

chessmaster

United States268 Posts

March 23 2010 22:28 GMT

#1137

ou are such a nerd, i feel like insulting your mother. what went wrong!? WHAT WENT WRONG!?

socialism isn't good for the US because were a rep. democracy from our start, thats really not in our best interest. we didn't get to where we're at now because we've had fantastic social programs.

ok you must be a complete retard ..... my post said the federal government is too strong what about that do you not understand ... how is a calll for the return of states rights being a cry for socialism ..... and by the way none of the so called socialistic countires are even pure socialist any more .. they are demo-republics with social programs .. pretty much the same thing we have here .. you must be a fox news junky

Xenixx

United States530 Posts

March 23 2010 22:32 GMT

#1138

On March 24 2010 07:28 chessmaster wrote:

Show nested quote +

eh? im talking about socialism... in general... how do you come around with the fact that i was picking apart your argument? just cause i quoted a different post? lol youre a head case

better yet nerdy, where does that fit in your logical nerd-gasms?

chessmaster

United States268 Posts

March 23 2010 22:37 GMT

#1139

yeah morality aside ( i.e slavery ) the civil war was the worst thing that every happened in the brief usa history .. and was the beginning of this federal monster ..not trying to derail the fprum ... just making the point that until this changes new probelms will keep cropping up over and over .. and until something is done , and the longer the american people wait to get control back , the harder it is goona be to get it back .. i seriously dont see anything short of a revolution getting states rights back at this point