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On May 24 2009 18:00 baal wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2009 15:34 Talith wrote:
I haven't read much of the thread, but I like to look at its worth depending if it saves lives. Torture like waterboarding looks like it SUCKS, but it's nowhere near the torture that terrorists use. Cutting off genitalia. fingertoes/nails, etc is nothing compared to American methods of sleep deprivation and locking them in a room with a bug or other phobia of others.
If torture reveals information that saves lives then I can't see why it should not be used. Granted it could be considered inhumane, but is the potential loss of life worth it? These terrorists already are linked and convicted of mastermind plots and horrible atrocities already. If they were tried, they'd no doubt get the death penalty anyways, so what's the difference? These people werent even in a trial, you cannot label somebody on such a simpleton term "terrorist" when it hasnt even proved that they are ones, plus when you do draw the line. When some extremist muslims torture foreign soldiers they are also doing it to save the lives of their conrades, families and friends. How can people be so dumb to not see everybody follow their idea, to you they are terrorist, to them, americans are terrorists and obviously given the circunstances, the world expected more humanity coming from a 1st world country that is suposed to be ruled by lawfulness, but turns out you are using torture like it was 500 years ago.
You are right in pointing out they weren't put on trial, however I was meaning to convey that if they WERE put on trial, such as Saddam Hussein, Khalid Shaikh Mohammed would most certainly get the death penalty. One example is from
This BBC article where he personally admits to "personally decapitating kidnapped US journalist Daniel Pearl in 2002 and admitted to a role in 30 plots." I draw the line of terrorism once they start cutting journalists heads off and broadcasting it on TV and admitting to being involved in 30 terror plots.
I have read much of the Qu'ran and have a deep respect for their faith and belief. I feel sad for those true muslims that wish to live a peaceful life in service to Allah, yet are shunned or discriminated against.
I am not coming at this from one-sided perspective. But when the facts say someone is responsible for innocent citizens deaths, not only in America but across the world, then it is time to protect those that would otherwise be killed.
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Did you know when we kill "terrorists" in Middle East, we leave their dead bodies to decay on the ground where they died with half their skull missing with their brains oozing out all the while their bottom torso is blown up missing. All so that their family in the next daylight can see what had happened to their father/brother/cousin/etc and drag their decaying body and bury them on the side of the road. Yes, United States forces does that. You know? A country that takes pride in their human rights and ethical country that should never never to anything that remotely even violates the human rights. But you know why we are not arguing why this is ethical or not? Because the general public does not know about it because the media never made it a big deal.
IDK maybe I'm being childish here but I do think its a bigger deal of giving some proper respect to the THOUSANDS of dead and their families by at least covering their body with some bag instead of just letting it decay overnight than like a handful of people being tortured by drowning.. My two cents..
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On May 24 2009 15:02 MYM.Testie wrote:
Not enhanced rape with proper lubrication!
lets not call it rape, lets call it controlled penis insertion.
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You are absolutely right RoadTrippin, that is very awful and I was unaware that is the way American troops are handling dead bodies. A good book that I read was entitled Empires of Trust. It compares it to the two other major empires, that of conquest and that of commerce and details just how delicate of a situation America is in regarding it's use of power and the promise to use it morally and respectably. It compares it with the Roman empire very nicely and and shows how difficult it is to be a super power.
Now I am not excusing the soldiers that tarnish and disrespect the bodies of the deceased. Granted there are incidents from both sides where they act less than honorably. America has the greatest obligation to the world to refrain from acting impulsively so as to not present the appearance of irresponsibility. Sometimes sadly, she falls and messes up and it is very saddening when it does happen.
However, I fail to see how this correlates with the issue of stopping terrorism and the issue of water boarding.
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On May 24 2009 17:55 baal wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2009 14:53 Rakanishu2 wrote:On May 24 2009 14:25 baal wrote:
Let me get this straigh for areon or whatever his nick is... if it doesnt cause permanent physical harm is not torture right?
So you would say rape is a good interrogation technique? raping women and men in groups and extended time should be allowed since it doesnt cause any kind of permanent damage am i right? except rape does cause permanent physical damage. it does????? oh please elaborate
It causes permenant mental damage. Just as bad.
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On May 24 2009 18:37 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2009 17:55 baal wrote:On May 24 2009 14:53 Rakanishu2 wrote:On May 24 2009 14:25 baal wrote:
Let me get this straigh for areon or whatever his nick is... if it doesnt cause permanent physical harm is not torture right?
So you would say rape is a good interrogation technique? raping women and men in groups and extended time should be allowed since it doesnt cause any kind of permanent damage am i right? except rape does cause permanent physical damage. it does????? oh please elaborate It causes permenant mental damage. Just as bad.
So extreme psychological distress is also torture and not acceptable right?
And drowning somebody triggering his fear of death is not traumatizing? lol.
Oh and for the record somebody trained could easily easily withstand long sessions of rape, just to make obvious that the fact that some trained people can take waterboarding doesnt make it any less brutal or somehow it makes it not torture.
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What the fuck are you talking about...
All I said was that rape causes permenant mental damage. Thats it...
you're a troll as usual.
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now imagine being waterboarded and raped! at the SAME TIME!!!
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Valhalla18444 Posts
hey biff sorry i couldnt get to this thread earlier i was in my workshop torturing people
someone fill me in thats the only post i read
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well steve, i tried it myselg it sucks. and now I'm drunk watching gom.
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On May 24 2009 18:45 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:
What the fuck are you talking about...
All I said was that rape causes permenant mental damage. Thats it...
you're a troll as usual.
sigh.. .are you serious?
That is my whole damn point, that mental distress is also torture and is NOT right.
Why in the hell would you state the obvious if you werent debating my point... argh you people are annoying.
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On May 24 2009 19:15 baal wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2009 18:45 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:
What the fuck are you talking about...
All I said was that rape causes permenant mental damage. Thats it...
you're a troll as usual. sigh.. .are you serious? That is my whole damn point, that mental distress is also torture and is NOT right. Why in the hell would you state the obvious if you werent debating my point... argh you people are annoying.
Well I was trying to agree with you.
But apparently thats impossible because youre in full attack mode all the time.
Glad I annoyed you though 
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Wow, I didnt know what waterboarding is until now, it looks very scary on some Jack Bauer, 24 type steez.
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On May 24 2009 15:24 HeadBangaa wrote:
I don't know if torture/waterboarding is effective because I have read conflicting reports on that matter. Which leads me to believe it is at least effective some of the time.
There are no credible studies that show torture is effective. End of story.
Taken from Educing Information, Interrogation: Science and Art Foundations for the future, from a section entitled "Approaching Truth: Behavioral Science Lessons on Educing Information from Human Sources", under a heading of "Key Findings":
The potential mechanisms and effects of using coercive techniques or torture for gaining accurate, useful information from an uncooperative source are much more complex than is commonly assumed. There is little or no research to indicate whether such techniques succeed in the manner and contexts in which they are applied. Anecdotal accounts and opinions based on personal experiences are mixed, but the preponderance of reports seems to weigh against their effectiveness.
U.S. personnel have used a limited number of interrogation techniques over the past half-century, but virtually none of them — or their underlying assumptions — are based on scientific research or have even been subjected to scientific or systematic inquiry or evaluation.
The accuracy of educed information can be compromised by the manner in which it is obtained. The effects of many common stress and duress techniques are known to impair various aspects of a person's cognitive functioning, including those functions necessary to retrieve and produce accurate, useful information.
Psychological theory and some (indirectly) related research suggest that coercion or pressure can actually increase a source’s resistance and determination not to comply. Although pain is commonly assumed to facilitate compliance, there is no available scientifi c or systematic research to suggest that coercion can, will, or has provided accurate useful information from otherwise uncooperative sources.
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Physician
United States4146 Posts
- anyone one that swallows euphemisms like "enhanced interrogation techniques" & "water boarding" and still does not understand what torture is or is not, is plainly speaking:
retarded, i.e. as in low I.Q. etc.. (which can not be corrected).
- anyone that understands that it is torture but still advocates torture under "special" circumstances as justified simply reveal their ignorance on the issue (i.e. about the effectiveness and counter productive consequences of torture) and their backward values; they seem to be oblivious to the legal, ramifications, both at home and international; they seem to be oblivious to the detrimental consequences the use and legalization of torture.
- they will deny it adamantly but the sad part is that some of the torture "advocates" in this thread, a few years ago would probably have had the opposite opinion but now spew out what they are fed by their leaders and what the "TV" tells them to think: it is "not torture", it was just "enhanced interrogation techniques" & "water boarding" In other words they have weak minds, as in easily fooled, poor convictions etc.. I find it ironic to see many "religious" or "moral" people or self proclaimed "American constitutionalists" supporting torture; they only reveal their absolute ignorance about their own beliefs and how easy it is to manipulate them..
- on a personal level anyone that advocates torture and understand what it is, is a douche i.e. a person I rather keep away from because they will probably be sort that would be doing the torturing if they ever got the chance.
- simply speaking, if you support torture under any circumstance, your either a douche, ignorant or an imbecile. Take your pick.
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On May 24 2009 18:45 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:
What the fuck are you talking about...
All I said was that rape causes permenant mental damage. Thats it...
you're a troll as usual.
Uh, did you not read where that tangent began...?
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On May 24 2009 23:30 Physician wrote:
- simply speaking, if you support torture under any circumstance, your either a douche, ignorant or an imbecile. Take your pick.
You forget to include hypocrite, since America condemned the North Vietnamese for waterboarding our soldiers about three decades ago. And anyone who has not gone through the technique has any authority to claim that it is not torture. It's easy to sit behind your cameras or computer screens and denounce the "liberal agenda" and claim that to challenge any government action is to be unpatriotic and downright un-American. It's not so easy to walk in step behind former Vice-President Dick Cheney's statements and sanctimoniously ask for government transparency once you experience these techniques for yourself.
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Looks pretty aweful :S. And these guys have the power to make it stop whenever they want. Imagine being put throught this without an end. For years. What has the Bush regime done to the american ways?
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Next time. Do molasses boarding.
What!? its just syrup!
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EPT
