|
On May 14 2009 13:43 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2009 16:55 zatic wrote:
HamerD: So, following your logic, the one and only responsible person for all war crimes, the holocaust, and crimes against humanity was Hitler himself? Everybody else can't be blamed because they were allowed to do what they did? absolutely not... but you can't convict thousands for the decisions of the few. soldiers are trained to be soldiers. they take orders. they do their jobs. that is what makes them soldiers. not to say it is right... but to be a soldier is not right. but it is the way our civilization works so far. it's really a double standard, is the job of soldiers to take orders or to make their own decisions? would our leaders want soldiers to just take orders, or to make their own decisions? + Show Spoiler +
When I was in the army, we had mandatory lessons about our duties and laws and stuff. If I would get an order, it was my duty to know if it's against the Geneva Convention and other laws. It would be illegal to follow it. Prosecutors would not only go after my superior, but also after me.
|
On May 13 2009 08:09 food wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2009 06:01 Carnac wrote:"Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement." ~Gandalf
Death does not atone for death, and wounds are not healed in revenge. Forgiveness and mercy can bring healing, and justice should sometimes be tempered with mercy. This man is not a danger to society (if he was it would be different) and I see little harm and much good in letting him live the rest of his life without this trial. Is a Lord of the Rings quote what you would recite in front of the survivors of the concentration camps to make a point? LMAO! Show nested quote +On May 13 2009 06:49 barbahaba0 wrote:
i'm sorry to say but your little article failed to give all the facts
the guy was captured allready and brought to israel in the 70's
where he was trialed but for lack of evidence found not guilty
the guy u'r talking about wasnt just a guard in prison camp
he used to stand between the lines of people naked walking to the showers and stabbing them with a sword
(those who dont know the history , the showers were gas chambers to dispose of the jews the fastest and most methodical way the germans thought of back than )
kind of ruthless to torture people on the way to their death .....
has nothing to do with following orders the guy was a sadist
now if this 89 years old is this war criminal i dont know btw his name was Demaniuk
but it seems new evidence has risen
if he is the guy no mercy will be coming from me for all i care he can be 200 blind and cripple
but maybe he is not the guy anyway
wtf is this forum on this heavy subject ????
just move back starcraft ! I have a hard time believing this considering the sources, especially the story with gas chambers in the showers  Even though gas chambers are somewhat "official", no wonder this case was dismissed already. Guy walks around with a sword stabbing masses of people walking all day long into hidden gas chambers in the showers while being cremated in thousands on the other side of the building with the rest of prisoners happily thinking they are still going to do the bathing.
what ever dude
u are not dragging this into it happen or not
as a guy with relatives that survived and died there and visited the place
u'r telling me that a guy with a sword stabbing naked people on the shower line to death is
unheard of???
what about just a line of people naked in a line to gas chambers
anyway like i sad i dont think a serious discussion can be talked on the matter when a guy says it may not even occur ??
|
On May 14 2009 18:12 Ropid wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2009 13:43 travis wrote:On May 13 2009 16:55 zatic wrote:
HamerD: So, following your logic, the one and only responsible person for all war crimes, the holocaust, and crimes against humanity was Hitler himself? Everybody else can't be blamed because they were allowed to do what they did? absolutely not... but you can't convict thousands for the decisions of the few. soldiers are trained to be soldiers. they take orders. they do their jobs. that is what makes them soldiers. not to say it is right... but to be a soldier is not right. but it is the way our civilization works so far. it's really a double standard, is the job of soldiers to take orders or to make their own decisions? would our leaders want soldiers to just take orders, or to make their own decisions? + Show Spoiler + When I was in the army, we had mandatory lessons about our duties and laws and stuff. If I would get an order, it was my duty to know if it's against the Geneva Convention and other laws. It would be illegal to follow it. Prosecutors would not only go after my superior, but also after me.
your country probably does this specifically because of the nazi regime.
1.) it's ridiculous
and
2.) did you country do that before ww2? I bet not.
|
On May 14 2009 17:13 zatic wrote:
I just want you to get off the idea that he a) was a soldier b) just followed orders. He was a savage that tortured and murdered because he liked to torture and murder.
and I want you and others to get off the idea that people act the same during times of peace as they do during warfare in times of stress and duress.
hundreds of thousands of people were in the S.S. I wonder how many committed atrocious acts.
as human beings we should not be going on witch hunts. we should not be prosecuting people for things like this. it's fucked up. it's sad that people can't see that.
where is the proescution against gitmo guards? nowhere
and yet we prosecute an 89 year old man for shit that happened 60 years ago, when he wasn't even a fucking decisionmaker. it's just retarded and distraction from things we REALLY should be focusing on.
|
On May 14 2009 22:38 barbahaba0 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2009 08:09 food wrote:On May 13 2009 06:01 Carnac wrote:"Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement." ~Gandalf
Death does not atone for death, and wounds are not healed in revenge. Forgiveness and mercy can bring healing, and justice should sometimes be tempered with mercy. This man is not a danger to society (if he was it would be different) and I see little harm and much good in letting him live the rest of his life without this trial. Is a Lord of the Rings quote what you would recite in front of the survivors of the concentration camps to make a point? LMAO! On May 13 2009 06:49 barbahaba0 wrote:
i'm sorry to say but your little article failed to give all the facts
the guy was captured allready and brought to israel in the 70's
where he was trialed but for lack of evidence found not guilty
the guy u'r talking about wasnt just a guard in prison camp
he used to stand between the lines of people naked walking to the showers and stabbing them with a sword
(those who dont know the history , the showers were gas chambers to dispose of the jews the fastest and most methodical way the germans thought of back than )
kind of ruthless to torture people on the way to their death .....
has nothing to do with following orders the guy was a sadist
now if this 89 years old is this war criminal i dont know btw his name was Demaniuk
but it seems new evidence has risen
if he is the guy no mercy will be coming from me for all i care he can be 200 blind and cripple
but maybe he is not the guy anyway
wtf is this forum on this heavy subject ????
just move back starcraft ! I have a hard time believing this considering the sources, especially the story with gas chambers in the showers Even though gas chambers are somewhat "official", no wonder this case was dismissed already. Guy walks around with a sword stabbing masses of people walking all day long into hidden gas chambers in the showers while being cremated in thousands on the other side of the building with the rest of prisoners happily thinking they are still going to do the bathing. what ever dude u are not dragging this into it happen or not as a guy with relatives that survived and died there and visited the place u'r telling me that a guy with a sword stabbing naked people on the shower line to death is unheard of??? what about just a line of people naked in a line to gas chambers anyway like i sad i dont think a serious discussion can be talked on the matter when a guy says it may not even occur ??
Indeed.
There is a plenty of evidence against many things related to WW2 that are accepted as a given. I happen to believe some of that or at least question it. Any discussion concerning the matter is as serious as anything else.
|
On May 14 2009 14:58 travis wrote:
I think the S.S. were clearly soldiers. If you don't, fine. I'm not here to argue semantics. Replace the word soldier in my post with the word "guard" and my point still stands.
Do you ever read past the first page of thread when you post?
|
On May 15 2009 01:40 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2009 18:12 Ropid wrote:On May 14 2009 13:43 travis wrote:On May 13 2009 16:55 zatic wrote:
HamerD: So, following your logic, the one and only responsible person for all war crimes, the holocaust, and crimes against humanity was Hitler himself? Everybody else can't be blamed because they were allowed to do what they did? absolutely not... but you can't convict thousands for the decisions of the few. soldiers are trained to be soldiers. they take orders. they do their jobs. that is what makes them soldiers. not to say it is right... but to be a soldier is not right. but it is the way our civilization works so far. it's really a double standard, is the job of soldiers to take orders or to make their own decisions? would our leaders want soldiers to just take orders, or to make their own decisions? + Show Spoiler + When I was in the army, we had mandatory lessons about our duties and laws and stuff. If I would get an order, it was my duty to know if it's against the Geneva Convention and other laws. It would be illegal to follow it. Prosecutors would not only go after my superior, but also after me. your country probably does this specifically because of the nazi regime. 1.) it's ridiculous and 2.) did you country do that before ww2? I bet not.
It's the same in the US military. :|
You're obligated to follow lawful orders. In war you may get the death penalty if not following lawful orders. But if you're obeying unlawful orders, you will be prosecuted.
|
On May 15 2009 01:57 Hawk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2009 14:58 travis wrote:
I think the S.S. were clearly soldiers. If you don't, fine. I'm not here to argue semantics. Replace the word soldier in my post with the word "guard" and my point still stands. Do you ever read past the first page of thread when you post?
maybe you could just make your point instead of being a dick.
Please excuse me for not taking 2 hours out of my day to read 13 pages of, undoubtedly, largely crappy posting.
|
On May 15 2009 02:04 Ropid wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2009 01:40 travis wrote:On May 14 2009 18:12 Ropid wrote:On May 14 2009 13:43 travis wrote:On May 13 2009 16:55 zatic wrote:
HamerD: So, following your logic, the one and only responsible person for all war crimes, the holocaust, and crimes against humanity was Hitler himself? Everybody else can't be blamed because they were allowed to do what they did? absolutely not... but you can't convict thousands for the decisions of the few. soldiers are trained to be soldiers. they take orders. they do their jobs. that is what makes them soldiers. not to say it is right... but to be a soldier is not right. but it is the way our civilization works so far. it's really a double standard, is the job of soldiers to take orders or to make their own decisions? would our leaders want soldiers to just take orders, or to make their own decisions? + Show Spoiler + When I was in the army, we had mandatory lessons about our duties and laws and stuff. If I would get an order, it was my duty to know if it's against the Geneva Convention and other laws. It would be illegal to follow it. Prosecutors would not only go after my superior, but also after me. your country probably does this specifically because of the nazi regime. 1.) it's ridiculous and 2.) did you country do that before ww2? I bet not. It's the same in the US military. :| You're obligated to follow lawful orders. In war you may get the death penalty if not following lawful orders. But if you're obeying unlawful orders, you will be prosecuted.
wtf does that mean? unlawful orders in war? you're supposed to draw the lines yourself, during the most extreme stress? god that is so absurd, it sounds to me like a way to take heat off of those giving the orders and instead have immediate scapegoats.
and anyways, how are you supposed to disobey orders if you get shot in the fucking head for doing so?
edit:
realized this post could seem as though I am upset. I am not. I like you.
|
On May 15 2009 02:06 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2009 01:57 Hawk wrote:On May 14 2009 14:58 travis wrote:
I think the S.S. were clearly soldiers. If you don't, fine. I'm not here to argue semantics. Replace the word soldier in my post with the word "guard" and my point still stands. Do you ever read past the first page of thread when you post? maybe you could just make your point instead of being a dick. Please excuse me for not taking 2 hours out of my day to read 13 pages of, undoubtedly, largely crappy posting.
Maybe, but what makes your posts such golden turds? The reason threads like these get to be this long is because everyone starts repeating what's already been said.
And actually, there are some really interesting posts throughout the thread that might make you reconsider what you're saying now. Particularly Zatic's and Moltke's.
|
On May 15 2009 02:45 Chef wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2009 02:06 travis wrote:On May 15 2009 01:57 Hawk wrote:On May 14 2009 14:58 travis wrote:
I think the S.S. were clearly soldiers. If you don't, fine. I'm not here to argue semantics. Replace the word soldier in my post with the word "guard" and my point still stands. Do you ever read past the first page of thread when you post? maybe you could just make your point instead of being a dick. Please excuse me for not taking 2 hours out of my day to read 13 pages of, undoubtedly, largely crappy posting. Maybe, but what makes your posts such golden turds? The reason threads like these get to be this long is because everyone starts repeating what's already been said.
i guess that is a fair point but also a simplification of what happens
And actually, there are some really interesting posts throughout the thread that might make you reconsider what you're saying now. Particularly Zatic's and Moltke's.
well I guess I will take a look then
edit:
I guess you guys are right and if I do want to respond in an old thread, I should go ahead read through the thread. At least I will try to.
|
If they can bring this guy back to his youth. Then it might be worth while. He is going to die very soon at his age. His life is almost worth less right now.
|
On May 12 2009 12:18 oneofthem wrote:
here warrant of punishment is different from the consideration of guilt.
a good summary of my views
On May 12 2009 13:01 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:
Sounds like someone in the criminal justice department is more interested in political posturing than in justice.
ding ding ding
On May 12 2009 17:11 zatic wrote:
You guys seriously need to get your Nazi facts straight before jumping to conclusions.
- German soldiers were drafted into the Wehrmacht, yes
- Desertion meant death sentence, yes
- It did NOT mean your family ended up in a concentration camp or would be killed too
However, this does all not matter because
Concentration camps were run by the SS and SD, NOT the Wehrmacht. SS and SA were initially armed branches of the party, the NSDAP. You were not drafted into the SS. In fact, it was considered an elite Nazi organization. The Fuehrerprinzip by which the SS was run makes sure that if you advanced there means you were the worst kind of human being on the planet.
The Eastern divisions of the SS that guarded the death camps and were comprised of Fremdvoelker were notorious for their cruelty even among SS circles. I guess if you were not Arian you had to prove more.
This whole romantic idea of an innocent that was forced to help kill the jews is nothing but a legend.
hundreds of thousands of the worst kind of human being on the planet? there is no way the picture you paint is accurate. I think it is more likely that the situation is extreme, and both "good" and "bad" people got caught up in it.
Some others brought up that he was a volunteer. I don't see what point this makes. Tons of soldiers are volunteers. I don't see what point this make even if he volunteered just to get to kill people. He was volunteering for a position, a job. He was volunteering to fill a slot that would have just been filled by someone else anyways. To prosecute people who's job it is to take orders is wrong, unless they are breaking the law doing it.
And what's with this "ivan the terrible" stuff? Since when is hearsay relevant to court proceedings? Does "ivan the terrible" mean something in law books? Or is there some kind of history of "Ivan the terrible" that I don't know about, and it was verified that it was him? Why wasn't the focus on what acts he did, rather than making it personal and aggrandized?
|
There's a lot of separate arguments happening here.
First, you have to decide in yourself whether or not you care about retribution. It's obvious this old man is not going to recommit.
Second, you have to decide whether he is really guilty.
Third, you need to decide whether it matters at this point in time. That is... Most crimes require that the criminal be convicted within a certain amount of time... otherwise it seems arbitrary.
On the second account, which is what many people have decided to argue because the other two are very personal, there's several more arguments. Is someone guilty if they're following orders? To what extent is the military responsible for its actions? etc etc.
The interesting thing Zatic brought up, which is absolutely true and many are ignoring, is that SS and the regular army are not at all the same. If you get drafted to the army, you're not responsible for the same things the SS were. You can't be drafted to the SS, you have to volunteer. This makes the argument, "Is someone responsible for their actions if they grow up well-adjusted to an unhealthy culture?" People respect authority. The authority at the time were the Nazi's. How many of us would have been anti-semitic if we grew up in that environment? Were those people who tried to save Jewish people and rebelled against their unhealthy culture so virtuous? Or did they merely grow up with Jewish people, and so had a lot of respect for them already, and thus good reason to conflict with the authority.
In my mind, if you accept that guilty people must be punished for their actions, the question has become 'Is a person who was brainwashed, as anyone would have been in their situation, truly guilty?"
If you don't accept that guilty people must be punished, the question becomes 'are deterrents to be neglected?' One might not believe in retribution, but one might certainly believe that if there were no punishments, more crimes would be committed (although this is something of a falsehood, if the modern prison system is any indication).
These are questions, I should note, that aren't conclusively answered anywhere. They're deeply philosophical and highly debated in the realm of law and society.
|
Please travis, for the love of god, do some reading before you post, if just once.
Military service was mandatory in Germany. The SS was an elite unit in the German military—you had to apply, prove your lineage and all sorts of stuff. They ran the camps, ran the police, the gestapo and was the only unit with definite knowledge of the mass murders (since a lot of the general public didn't know what exactly happened) and all that stuff, hence SS members typically being the ones tried with war crimes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schutzstaffel
The only controversy should be the evidence, since he's been tried several times and keeps coming back because of conflicting evidence
|
On May 15 2009 03:48 Hawk wrote:Please travis, for the love of god, do some reading before you post, if just once. Military service was mandatory in Germany. The SS was an elite unit in the German military—you had to apply, prove your lineage and all sorts of stuff. They ran the camps, ran the police, the gestapo and was the only unit with definite knowledge of the mass murders (since a lot of the general public didn't know what exactly happened) and all that stuff, hence SS members typically being the ones tried with war crimes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SchutzstaffelThe only controversy should be the evidence, since he's been tried several times and keeps coming back because of conflicting evidence
dude, what the fuck is your deal
I read the first 10 pages before my last post, and only replied to posts that I read. I read that wikipedia page. I also read other pages. WTF are you even trying to say? WTF are you even replying to?
|
The Auxiliary-SS (SS mannschaft or "wiking") was an organization that arose in 1945 as a last ditch effort to keep concentration camps running. Auxiliary-SS members were not considered regular SS personnel, but were conscripted members from other branches of the German military, the Nazi Party, and the Volkssturm. Such personnel wore a distinctive twin swastika collar patch and served as camp guard and administrative personnel until the surrender of Germany.
:O
|
I am not a judge. He is innocent before the law, not in my eyes.
Also, he has been found guilty previously and sentenced to death in Isreal
Lol, are you serious Zatic? So the fact that he's been tried and sentenced in Israel means that it's legitimate to say he was guilty? That's so like how german officers were tried by the soviets. And yes what i mean is that it's so biased that even speaking of this fact makes it be weird.
|
On May 15 2009 03:57 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2009 03:48 Hawk wrote:Please travis, for the love of god, do some reading before you post, if just once. Military service was mandatory in Germany. The SS was an elite unit in the German military—you had to apply, prove your lineage and all sorts of stuff. They ran the camps, ran the police, the gestapo and was the only unit with definite knowledge of the mass murders (since a lot of the general public didn't know what exactly happened) and all that stuff, hence SS members typically being the ones tried with war crimes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SchutzstaffelThe only controversy should be the evidence, since he's been tried several times and keeps coming back because of conflicting evidence dude, what the fuck is your deal I read the first 10 pages before my last post, and only replied to posts that I read. I read that wikipedia page. I also read other pages. WTF are you even trying to say? WTF are you even replying to?
You first say there's no difference between the SS and regular soldiers, and then you say 'so what!' that he supposedly joined a group that you have to prove yourself capable of extreme hate, murder, deception and all that stuff. And then you say that 'well, someone else was gonna do it' lol
|
On May 15 2009 04:38 Hawk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2009 03:57 travis wrote:On May 15 2009 03:48 Hawk wrote:Please travis, for the love of god, do some reading before you post, if just once. Military service was mandatory in Germany. The SS was an elite unit in the German military—you had to apply, prove your lineage and all sorts of stuff. They ran the camps, ran the police, the gestapo and was the only unit with definite knowledge of the mass murders (since a lot of the general public didn't know what exactly happened) and all that stuff, hence SS members typically being the ones tried with war crimes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SchutzstaffelThe only controversy should be the evidence, since he's been tried several times and keeps coming back because of conflicting evidence dude, what the fuck is your deal I read the first 10 pages before my last post, and only replied to posts that I read. I read that wikipedia page. I also read other pages. WTF are you even trying to say? WTF are you even replying to? You first say there's no difference between the SS and regular soldiers, and then you say 'so what!'
no I didn't.
that he supposedly joined a group that you have to prove yourself capable of extreme hate, murder, deception and all that stuff.
oh really? you know what it took to be in the S.S, mr "do some reading before you post"? even in the wikipedia article that YOU linked to it says nothing about this. and it also says:
As the Nazi party monopolized political power in Germany, key government functions such as law enforcement were absorbed into the SS, while many SS organizations became the de facto government agencies.
so I suppose the police force must have all been terrible terrible people
and besides, his reasons for joining are moot. plenty of people joined armed forces with the intention of hurting people. duh
and furthermore, the question isn't even whether his acts were moral, it's whether they were legal. As i said before I don't believe being a solder is moral in the first place.
And then you say that 'well, someone else was gonna do it' lol
saying "lol" doesn't make it untrue. it's clearly true. anyone with a brain should be able to understand that if he wasn't in that position someone else would have been.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
