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The greatest mind ever - a lesson from history - Page 9

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SurG
Profile Joined June 2003
Russian Federation798 Posts
October 20 2004 10:45 GMT
#161
On August 30 2003 20:31 Orlandu wrote:
I don't believe in intelligence setting people apart at all. There's too much evidence in the world that intelligence is nothing more than a useless statistic. Motivation however, is the key factor that shapes the people in this world and what they do. Even your story shows enormous evidence of that.


I would certainly agree with your conclusions applied to vast majority of people. Humans are capable of great dela of learning, adapting and developing, so, in my opinion, motivation and effort (and some circumstancial factors) should be more significant than whatever "measurable" predefined (genetic) difference in intelligence.

This, however, is certainly not true in border cases, when, for example, you have a lot of talented people working in a narrow field. Often there is still a lot that separates some of them, and it is sure as hell not lack of hard work. I would think that some people's brain for whatever unknown reasons are just better at certain tasks. You can't say, for example, that top 100 chess players do not work enough, but Kasparov still dominated the field for 20 years.

Another thing I want to mention is intelligence assessment. While I certainly deeply appreciate the effort to measure it in some ways (like IQ tests) in order to understand what it is, you cannot really draw any serious conclusions from it (unless you are comparing 180 with 80). We still have no clue what intelligence is, so considering a limited testing technique as a sort of universal sorting/comparing tool for intelligence (as some people here do) is gullible to say at least. I really don't understand how can you argue about comparison of uncomparable objects.

P.S. Stop refering to Einstein as an example of enormously high IQ. Nobody thought Einstein was that smart before he published articles that were breaktroughs in 3 phundamental physics problems in a very short period of time. From where I stand, his high IQ as an explanatiomn of that phenomena is even worse than a hypothesis that he sold his soul to devil for that.

Hydrolisko
Profile Blog Joined May 2004
Vanuatu1659 Posts
October 20 2004 17:17 GMT
#162
Very Very interesting... so interesting that it prompted me to do a lil research about this man. According to numerous studies and biographies, this guy's IQ was indeed crudely estimated at 250-300 which I initially thought was true.

Einstein's adult IQ was 160 which was by no means "amazing". But his level on transcendental (meaning he can raise his thinking above the ordinary level) thinking was and is unparalleled; with that, you can probably add 30-40 points to his iq which would put him in the class of around 200 iq.

Marilyn Vos Savant had the highest measured IQ of 230.

Highest living measured IQ is 19?, he was once featured on Dateline.

There was also a kid that attended USC at the age of 11, graduated at the age of 14.

Average IQ by nation
China, Japan, Korea (Eastern Asia Countries) 103-107
United States 98
Mexico 87
African countries 70
8882
Profile Blog Joined December 2003
2718 Posts
Last Edited: 2004-10-20 18:50:49
October 20 2004 18:49 GMT
#163
I totally dont understand why do people consider such people geniuses. Nearly everything we learn during the first grades of school is really easy. Especially when one has good teachers and great 'atmosphere' to learn. Some subjects like history. biology etc are just raw facts. Knowing them has nothing to do with great iq, it's just memory. Remembering things fast is nice, but you dont need to know all the facts (nono, IM not being ignorant) when you can check them in a book (for example when one doesnt know the proper date of a battle in 14th centaury it wont make a big difference).
So we are left with languages and mathematics/physics+music.
Languages are easy to learn when you have a private teacher and read a lot/use them. The man mentioned in the article had his parents who taught him and most of us are stuck in language classes at schools (because our parents dont have enough time), with groups of other people and we constantly waste time revising the facts know and being unable to focus on the things we cant catch faster. In addition we cant use the languages all the time like that dude, because our parents probably dont know 10+ languages. During 1/2 year with my private english teacher (2h weekly) I probably learned more than during 4 years at school (6+hours weekly). And that guy was taught at the age of 3 (or so I wont bother to check), when people learn languages much faster.
Plus as it was said when you know 10 languages you will probably learn the 11th easier because many things are the same. Actually he didnt learn 'different' languages like chinese/korean/hungarian. (only turkish and hebraw, not sure if they are hard of not, they were in the center of the chart with hard languages to learn, we made one day, these languages use alphabets, gogo learn chinese ~~).

as for mathematics -the things we learn at school are easy. If you consider it hard you probably had bad teachers who didnt make you 'understand' it, but 'learn' it.
The more complicated math is harder but think about it from other way -(it also applies to music):
that guy learned the basic stuff (notation etc) when he was young and had additional 10 years to understand it. Moreover his parents probably explained to him all the things he had problems with.
[[[[(actually when you are interested in something (because of incentives given by good teachers) you are more engaged and try to do things on your own, by reading books/thinking, think about bw, many of us know most of the progamers (some even their names) and spend a lot of time leaning things about them, because we like it. If we would like maths instead of bw and would discuss math problems instead of strategies, we would be generally smarter and like few of people here became high level in bw, few would be good at maths and could even invent something etc. It is the problem of dedication and will to do something, this guy was tutored by his parents and probably couldnt say 'F*** all this S***' Im gonna play bw/soccer/meet some girls etc)]]]].
It may sound unclear but here's an example -if you would learn the music notation (sorry dont know how is it called in english) at the age of 20+ (it;s not a good age to learn it because the older we get, the harder we learn) you will have say 5-10 years during which you can practise before you publish your music (if you fail you have to switch jobs most of the time, etc). That guy knew all the basic stuff when he was young. He had more years when he could 'feel' basics.
Nowadays good classic music is created by people who are usually 60+. They probably learn how to write it at the age of 25 and have around 35 years to practise. When someone is 60+ he gets slower and thinking gets harder (well, Im not sure, Im not that old). And the 'genius' was taught the basics when he was really young and could use them during his most 'creative' part of the life (which IMO is the age around 12-25, when the brain can still learn things really fast).
Of course it's not always true, there is a lot talent needed, but when all of people who create music (etc) were taught how to do it during their childhood, we would have a lot more of better music productions nowadays.
As for the musitians - I always wonder why do people believe he was such a genius. I totally dont understand why is classic music considered 'genius' and popular isnt. IMO the beatels made better music than many classic composers, because the music is still listened by many people.
Of course Im not talking about crap like britney etc, which is created for niches (young girls) and forgotten after few years (however one has to have talent do it, it's not easy).
But what makes the classic music better? If it is so good why dont most of the people listen to it?
Of course I dont claim it's bad. I just think that 'popular' music creators dont get enough recognition.

As for the intelligence - IMO such people are awfully unintelligent. They cant live in a society. They would have big problems if they werent tutored and helped.
I believe that people shoud have children to spread their genes.
Who is smarter, a genius with iq 220 living in a wood, or for example one of the Russian Czars (ceasars) who is said to have 800++ children (he spread his genes), or a guy who was using his own sperm in a clinic instead of 'anonymous' sperm selected by woman (funny guy, lol).
They spread their genes and can survive, plus have enough brain to either (a) rule, (b) be a doctor.
It's the thing someone here called being 'smart'.

Plus the knowledge he had was much usless and the things he created. Black holes? OMG if we would have a theory about them created now, it wouldnt make much difference. And people who create more useful things -medicines, light bulbs ( ) etc, dont get any narly recognition (actually we know about the creator of light bulbs, but dont know who invented microwave ovens). Once again I dont want to make you feel Im beeing ignorant, but when thinking generally, how does a great chess player contribute to the society - only some pleasure for a small group of people (plus if there was a war, he would be quickly forgotten), while someone CREATING or INVENTING someothing will help the life of many people.
But still a chess player>>> that guy, because the chessmaster is probably happy during his life and Im not so sure about this 'genius' and he made a decision to be a pro chess player on his own (and we forget about a lot of people who were tutored just like Sidis and didnt achieve anything -they just wasted their lifes (or rather their parents wasted their lifes)).

of course there is talent and one needs it. but IMO someone who is 'smart' and creative may achieve much more than someone who is a walking encyclopedia, full of worthless facts
I have returned
Axaxouxa
Profile Joined October 2004
Greece12 Posts
October 20 2004 20:20 GMT
#164
Maybe the conversation would change direction and we should discuss about ppl being pioneers in thoughts,ideas,contributions to sciences etc.What is their profile?And also this: intelligent ppl without motivation.What could cause this?Poverty?Lazyness?Also does anyone from here know or have some info whats the connection of the human mind memory(for example John Von Neumann had great memory and mathematical ability coinsidence or not?) and its ability to think;calculate,valuating things etc.About brains abilities what counts;genetic determinism or enviroment?Maybe a combination of these?I still read that experts have many disagreements on this
I LOVE BIG TITS AND BIG ROUND ASSES
(orky)oTTeR
Profile Joined April 2004
France180 Posts
October 20 2004 22:41 GMT
#165
u guys could bielive in a flying goat.
No Banning yo, I want to react.
TvP On Guillo
Profile Joined April 2004
Denmark646 Posts
October 20 2004 23:51 GMT
#166
On October 21 2004 02:17 Hydrolisko wrote:
Average IQ by nation
China, Japan, Korea (Eastern Asia Countries) 103-107
United States 98
Mexico 87
African countries 70


This statement is incredibly stupid and incorrect. Could you link me to where you read this? IQ tests that result in a specific race getting higher scores than another, are completely useless. A proper IQ test doesn't require any knowledge. Obviously these scores are based on a select few of iq tests from the different countrys, and as we all know, the educational system in Africa as a whole, is not really great. If anything, these scores might be an indicator to how well the education system is in those specific countrys/nations, compared to each other.
Deeply earnest and thoughtful people stand on shaky footing with the public - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
-_-
Profile Blog Joined November 2003
United States7081 Posts
Last Edited: 2004-10-21 00:47:51
October 21 2004 00:47 GMT
#167
On August 30 2003 15:41 WickedDreams wrote:
Can you name the brightest person of all time? Perhaps Albert Einstein or Leonardo da Vinci. Maybe Isaac Newton or John Stuart Mill. These notables are certainly contenders, but there was one man who may have outshone them all. You have probably never heard of William James Sidis.

William Sidis was born of extraordinary parents. They were Russian Jews who fled the intense anti-semitism of their native country. Upon arriving in America Boris Sidis taught himself to read and write English in four months and educated himself with a work-one-week-study-for-two policy. Initially he resisted studying for a degree but then completed the four year course in one year. His Ph.D was awarded even though he declined to submit a thesis or sit an oral exam.

Sarah Mandlebraun studied English under Boris. With her keen intelligence she went on to study medicine and was one of the few women to graduate from medical school before the turn of the century. She encouraged Boris to enrol at Harvard. They fell in love and married despite an insistence by Boris that he would never make any money.

William was born on April fools day in 1898. His parents lavished attention (of a particular kind) on him from the start and worked hard to make him brilliant. In modern parlance, he was 'hothoused'. While still in his cot Boris used letter bricks to teach William syllables. At six months he spoke his first word, "door", and a few months later was able to explain that "door opens, people come". By eighteen months he was reading the New York Times and had learnt to count. Sarah bought him an encyclopedia and her help using it was soon rejected. At three he was typing letters. He taught himself Latin, and then went on to learn Greek, Russian, French, German, Hebrew, Turkish and Armenian. During his life he mastered at least forty languages and it was said he could learn a language in a day.

At six William was able to calculate on what day of the week any date would fall. One reporter was amazed to discover that he could not only quote facts from books, but also give the numbers of the pages on which those facts could be verified. He enjoyed star-gazing and map-making, and began collecting 'streetcar transfers', a hobby which became a life-long obsession and on which he later wrote what may be the most boring book ever written.

He sped through grade school, completing all seven grades in seven months, though he was not so good at maths to begin with. He took an interest at seven and even developed a set of logarithms in base twelve. He devised his own speed-reading system, wrote four books between the ages of six and eight and invented a new Esperanto-like language. By the time he was eight William had passed the Harvard Medical School anatomy examination and the entrance exam for the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.

In high school he took six weeks to complete the four year curriculum and then worked for another six weeks as a teaching assistant. Before officially studying physics he was helping senior students with their assignments.

Withdrawn from the high school after three months William stayed at home mastering advanced mathematics. He read Einstein and may have corresponded with the great man. At eleven he enrolled as a 'special student' at Harvard and at twelve delivered a lecture on 'four-dimensional bodies' to the Harvard Mathematical Club. By now the press was onto him and reported a severe bout of flu as a nervous breakdown. His interests were wide and included politics, mathematics, languages, astronomy, anatomy and transport systems. He wrote a political constitution for a utopian society and ordered his personal life with a set of 154 rules, which included celibacy.

A cousin said of him that he never played games but was always reading. He was "a genius, and to be a genius you have to do a lot of work". This seriousness and brilliance, together with social ineptitude, led to persecution at Harvard, bolstered by strong anti-semitic feeling. His grades were not brilliant and he graduated 'cum laude' rather than 'magna cum laude', thus incurring the wrath of his mother.

In 1915 he secured a position as professor of mathematics at the Rice Institute where he was surrounded by brilliant minds. He was teased and reduced to ineffectiveness by students older than him and increasingly became a social misfit. He joined the socialist party, strongly expressed pacifist views and was asked to leave after eight months.

Enrolling at Harvard Law School he took a greater interest in politics, veering to the left of the socialist party. Some on the left favoured revolution and this incurred the displeasure of people at large. William claimed exemption from the draft as a conscientious objector and escaped prison only because World War I ended. His mother was again shocked when he left law school before graduating.

For a time he worked as a laboratory assistant but resigned in disgust upon discovering that he was working to a military agenda. He was imprisoned for being prominent in a protest march that turned into a riot and was rescued from eighteen months hard-labour by his father. William later considered this redemption to be an 'abduction'.

In 1925 his book 'The Animate and the Inanimate' was published. This was a scientific work in which William predicted black holes years before anyone else. The work was totally ignored and William never again published a book in his own name.

'Escaping' from his parents he worked first as a Russian interpreter and then in a number of positions operating adding machines for low wages. Always he hid his genius from his employer and left when it was discovered. The press continued to hound him and he objected to those who felt that he owed them a debt just because he was a genius. His isolation and eccentricity increased.

His high intelligence cannot be doubted. To give one last example, he was fond of completing crosswords without writing the answers down until he had them all. Abraham Sterling, director of New York City's Aptitude Testing Institute, said that "he easily had an I.Q. between 250 and 300. I have never heard of the existence of anybody with such an I.Q. I would honestly say that he was the most prodigious intellect of our entire generation".

At the age of 46 William James Sidis, possibly the world's greatest mind ever, suffered a serious stroke and died. History hardly remembers him.

What went wrong? Why did this monster mind apparently achieve so little? The potential was there. Reading through the details of William's life (in Amy Wallace's book, 'The Prodigy', published by Macmillan) a few things become very clear. William was a reluctant genius. In his early years he delighted in his gifts and abilities, but he lived in a goldfish bowl with the world watching his every move. His father made the serious mistake of setting him on a pedestal as an example of how children should be educated, attributing his high I.Q. to education. The critics were there, many just waiting for him to fail. The press love to find fault with those in the public eye; it sells newspapers. Princess Diana was a recent victim of the tyranny of the press, but she was not the first and will not be the last. William Sidis was denied privacy and the freedom to live his life in the way he wanted and withdrew into his shell. The world was thus denied the potentially huge benefits of a very powerful mind.

But does society have the right to say to the individual "You must perform for us"? William Sidis did his own thing. He used his great mind in his esoteric streetcar transfer hobby and in the writing of a revisionist history of the American people. We do not tell artists that they must decorate public buildings so that everyone can benefit from their talents. Nor do we expect composers to dedicate themselves to the most popular styles so that the greatest number of people will enjoy their work. Genius does not work like that. In fact, genius may be smothered if we attempt to harness and steer it in a desirable direction. At an individual level most people have experienced 'moments of brilliance' when they have least expected them. In fact, the harder we try to be clever the less likely we are to excel. Brilliance is not available on prescription.

In 1987 Britain experienced 'the great storm' in which millions of trees were uprooted. Some areas were cleared and carefully replanted, with only limited success. Other areas were left untouched and nature has taken its course. These areas are regenerating wonderfully. Let us not forget that minds are also nature's products.

Should we leave our best minds to develop without intervention? Probably not. Very few of intellectual history's great minds have arrived at greatness without active encouragement and even some pushing. But it is the height of arrogance to believe that we can produce genius to order. We should be there for the great minds when they need our support, pushing them oh so gently. And we must protect them from the awful pressures that genius can incur. Of utmost importance, we must remember that the mind belongs to the individual and not to society (and certainly not to parents and teachers). There is the risk that our efforts will be in vain, but the risk of suffocating a great mind may be far greater.


Read every word. Incredible story, and clear and though-provoking writing style. It does appear to be an essay for school though. I doubt anyone of us could've written it.
niklasTHEfro
Profile Joined August 2004
Sweden419 Posts
October 21 2004 00:52 GMT
#168
voltaire
enough said
Casper...
Profile Joined October 2002
Liberia4948 Posts
October 21 2004 00:55 GMT
#169
dude was too smart to ever get anything done
JAM THE FUCKER!
sundance
Profile Blog Joined May 2004
Slovakia3201 Posts
October 21 2004 01:06 GMT
#170
The greatest mind ever=John Nash
Nick Cave & the Bad Seeds
SoleSteeler
Profile Joined April 2003
Canada5420 Posts
October 21 2004 01:12 GMT
#171
Aristotle!
KillerPenguin
Profile Joined June 2004
United States516 Posts
October 21 2004 02:31 GMT
#172
Why is everyone believing this?
1. intelligent and stupid people start speaking at the same time, you can't tell any reasonable difference until age 4
2. you can't learn a language in a day. there is more than just intelligence that is required for so many things, there is experience. even if he could read a word in another language and english once and permanently remember it, that would take a lot longer than a day, especially if you had to hear the word pronounced as well. Lastly, memory and intelligence are seperate issues.
3. why do you people think he was affected by others? ok picture yourself surrounded by retards. do you really think retards are significantly going to affect the way you think and act.
4. this story is of course 100 years old because if it were not it would be identified as false
5. for those of you who don't know how the iq system works. 100 is the mean and 15 or 16 is the standard deviation. a person like me with an iq of 140 would be in the top 2% which is the boundary for someone to be considered genius. Someone with an iq of 210 would be a 1 in 278 billion chance of occuring.
http://www.escapeintolife.com/
Orlandu
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
China2450 Posts
Last Edited: 2004-10-21 02:57:25
October 21 2004 02:53 GMT
#173
On October 20 2004 19:45 SurG wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 30 2003 20:31 Orlandu wrote:
I don't believe in intelligence setting people apart at all. There's too much evidence in the world that intelligence is nothing more than a useless statistic. Motivation however, is the key factor that shapes the people in this world and what they do. Even your story shows enormous evidence of that.


I would certainly agree with your conclusions applied to vast majority of people. Humans are capable of great dela of learning, adapting and developing, so, in my opinion, motivation and effort (and some circumstancial factors) should be more significant than whatever "measurable" predefined (genetic) difference in intelligence.

This, however, is certainly not true in border cases, when, for example, you have a lot of talented people working in a narrow field. Often there is still a lot that separates some of them, and it is sure as hell not lack of hard work. I would think that some people's brain for whatever unknown reasons are just better at certain tasks. You can't say, for example, that top 100 chess players do not work enough, but Kasparov still dominated the field for 20 years.

Another thing I want to mention is intelligence assessment. While I certainly deeply appreciate the effort to measure it in some ways (like IQ tests) in order to understand what it is, you cannot really draw any serious conclusions from it (unless you are comparing 180 with 80). We still have no clue what intelligence is, so considering a limited testing technique as a sort of universal sorting/comparing tool for intelligence (as some people here do) is gullible to say at least. I really don't understand how can you argue about comparison of uncomparable objects.

P.S. Stop refering to Einstein as an example of enormously high IQ. Nobody thought Einstein was that smart before he published articles that were breaktroughs in 3 phundamental physics problems in a very short period of time. From where I stand, his high IQ as an explanatiomn of that phenomena is even worse than a hypothesis that he sold his soul to devil for that.



Wow that is an old quote of mine =]

I know everything in your post wasn't directed towards me, but I'm not going to bother quoting out the specific parts.

I think I was a bit brash in my old quote. With like what you said, we still have no real idea what intelligence truly is, so trying to measure it is a bit illogical. But that's not to say that intelligence doesn't play a part in things, as I think my quote gave off such an impression.

I simply feel motivation is the most important factor of all. That's not limited to simply the amount of work put in, but to all aspects of motivation, both mental and physical. With the right motivation, I believe a person can achieve anything... the problem is all properly stimulating all aspects of motivation.

For example, Korea vs the World in Brood War. Foreigners put in so much effort, but still cannot compete with the Koreans. It's not because Koreans are born with some innate ability... or perhaps they are in a sense, in that aspects of their motivation are already properly stimulated that foreigners can't easily stimulate. The Koreans not only practice more than Foreigners, the true pros devote their emotions and mental structure to the focus of Brood War. There are very few foreigners who can even lie and say they do half as much of that.

I believe intelligence to be a part of the mechanics of the brain, but not something set in stone for a person. In a sense it may be set in stone, because I don't believe humans have any idea of how to stimulate the right aspects of motivation that would be measured under our standards as intelligence, rather it happens unconsciously, by luck, or forces beyond our control.

But, I think it would be igorant of me to say all brains are equal in every aspect... While I believe in general they are quite similar, there has to be some differences between them. It is my personal belief however that raw motivation, defined under all of it's aspects, is the true make-up of what we call intelligence.

There are just so many examples of people with seemingly amazing talents that achieve so little under certain circumstances, yet people with seemingly unamazing talents achieving so much under other circumstances... There have to be a network of aspects that could allow for such circumstances to promote such achievement... Something to stimulate the brain that allows it to act in the way in which it does. Perhaps the environment, how one is brought up and taught to view life and it's functions.



I don't know if anyone followed what I'm saying, and to be honest I wasn't directing most of this post to the poster I quoted, I sort of began rambling and theorizing and recklessly finishing my thoughts... just kind of writing what was in my head without realizing it.
We cant give up just because things arent the way we want them to be.
cav
Profile Joined August 2004
Pitcairn514 Posts
October 21 2004 02:55 GMT
#174
that guy was motivated more than other geniuses, but he didn't accomplish much compared to others, he just educated himself.
Servolisk
Profile Blog Joined February 2003
United States5241 Posts
October 21 2004 05:09 GMT
#175
On October 20 2004 13:25 travis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2004 12:42 Servolisk wrote:
Harvard was different back then, but still very difficult to get into I'm sure. But perhaps more suited to his abilities. Just guessing though.



I don't even understand what this means.


It means I think Harvard had different entrance requirements, and perhaps those requirments were suited to his talents. I doubt he could get in with todays requirements. If I remember correctly, education for children was pretty useless, and all ages were in one building where they would do simple things on a slate. Perhaps 11 year olds of today would be able to get into the Harvard of back then.
wtf was that signature
tiffany
Profile Joined November 2003
3664 Posts
October 21 2004 06:19 GMT
#176
wicked could you cite your source(s) ? i'm just curious as to where i can read more
RuGbUg
Profile Joined June 2003
United States2347 Posts
October 21 2004 11:25 GMT
#177
the difficult of true history comes out...
anguish: its like that time i asked my bestfriend who happened to be black if his dick was bigger than mine anguish: he got angry anguish: and told me i was racist and gay
fenixdown
Profile Blog Joined April 2004
Colombia320 Posts
October 21 2004 11:43 GMT
#178
This old post is unavailable due to an encoding issue. Please contact an admin if you would like this post restored for historical reasons.
I love protoss because it is tough and straight. It is a race for the men. - Reach
ItchReliever
Profile Joined April 2004
2489 Posts
October 21 2004 11:52 GMT
#179
humans are so disgusting... bunch of monkeys, the lot of you
SurG
Profile Joined June 2003
Russian Federation798 Posts
October 21 2004 12:11 GMT
#180
On October 21 2004 20:43 fenixdown wrote:
Poland, a fucktard that spread +800 sons over the world is a criminal and should be punished for the huge damage his dick did to the world.

offtopic:
That dude has no idea what he is talking about. I'll bet that both Rurik and Romanov dynasties of Russian czars combined never had that many children.

We do know, however, is that Poles invaded Russia using fake self-proclaimed heir to the Russian throne(False Dmitry) as excuse. =) As a matter of fact, during pretty short period of time, Poles supported 3 fake hairs to the Russian throne (all were claiming to be Dmitry, son of Ivan The Terrible). So I wonder, if you count all those "children" Poles made up, is it going to exceed 800? =)
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