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On December 06 2007 23:41 Lazerflip! wrote:
So you think gun control laws are going to stop those planning a mass killing spree from getting guns? Kid, listen to what I have already said. Grenades are ILLEGAL. BANNED. You are not supposed to be able to buy them, yet this kid had them anyway. Do you mean to tell me that if guns were illegal, he wouldn't have one of those either? Give me a break, please.
Look at Europe as an example. Most gun crime in Europe occurs amongst people who are willingly involved in crime - i.e., criminals or just shady characters. There will be gangs and criminals shooting each other but rarely (or at least significantly less than in America) do ordinary citizens have the need to shoot each other up. Look at Canada as an example too - the argument for self-defense goes out the window because you are not defending yourself against other guns. If someone breaks into your house, the odds are heavily in the favor of him not being armed. The burglary in question can be prevented by a good alarm system - no need for anyone to get killed.
Why isn't he armed? He isn't armed because there are less guns on the street and it is much, much more difficult for him to get a gun than it would be in the US. Sure, there are illegal weapons on the street but they are mostly in the hands of hardcore criminals, not some run of the mill burglar and NOT SOME ANGRY TEENAGER AT A MALL.
Have guns, as self-defense and a deterent for crime, actually helped the crime figures in the US? Of course not. People aren't going to avoid a break-in out of fear that the home-owner has a gun. Instead he is more likely to attempt the break-in because he has a gun.
Yeah, it's not a solution in any way, shape, or form, but it won't hurt. Still, much of gun-crime is committed with illegal weapons. But many of these illegal guns are 'legal guns' taken from ordinary citizens who felt the need to own handguns. Like you said, you can't stop people from making guns, but you can make it an issue of supply and demand. Less guns available makes it harder for someone to get a gun on a whim. Prohibition is often used as a supportive argument for how a gun-ban simply wouldn't work. Yes, people could still get whiskey into the country, but it's undeniable that less people were getting drunk.
It's not a total solution, and barely a partial one. But getting rid of guns in law is only the first, small step. The real work comes in removing the guns already out there and dealing with guns coming in from out of the country. Hell, stop throwing so much money at the 'war on drugs' and focus on something more noteworthy. The right laws in place give law enforcement the power to get guns out of the hands of a large amount of common criminals. It's not 100%, obviously, but it's not 0% either.
Jibba: If you have the avenues to purchase Marijuana illegally, then you also have the avenues to purchase a gun illegally. It REALLY isn't hard at all to purchase something illegally if you have every intention of doing so. Something tells me this kid would have had the intentions. But if you don't believe me, I could probably show you. It is probably easier for me to buy a gram of marijuana, or an unregistered handgun, than it is for me to buy alcohol.
You're comparing the growing of a plant - something I can do in my bedroom closet, with the large scale manufacturing of firearms?
But you know, it's also easier for you to get a registered gun than some alcohol. That's as much a statement of societal values as it is on the ease of acquiring illegal goods.
Obviously a world without guns would be IDEAL, but you can never stop people from making guns, and as long as people make guns, people are going to be able to get them. It's common sense. If you could completely be rid of guns, sure, by all means do so. But unless you have some magical idea to rid the ENTIRE WORLD of guns, then the best thing to do it to at least even the odds between criminals/murderers and regular people, so that you don't have one kid with an AK-47 vs 200 unarmed civilians, which is what we in America call a "massacre".
So then why are we always talking about America when we're talking about gun-crime? The ability to get illegal weapons imported is no greater in the US than it is in any other country. So let's look at what is different - and that is the amount of normal people who feel the need to own guns. You have a gun market that is absolutely flooded with product and it's your own silly laws that have made it that way.
Don't talk about evening the odds unless you can show that ordinary citizens owning guns leads to less home-invasions, less robberies, and less gun-related murders.
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On December 07 2007 00:26 NonY[rC] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2007 00:11 Fen wrote:
If you cannot see that your countries gun laws ARE the reason there are soo many shootings, then you deserve to be the next one shot. At least our court system has come farther along than that. And your post is really really bad. It says nothing for the argument that gun control is the problem. It's just stating "Fen thinks the problem is gun control." But on top of that, Fen wishes death upon those who don't understand or don't agree with what Fen states. And that just discredits Fen completely.
Well that actually summed it up pretty nicely. My post doesnt seek to justify why gun control is a problem, you can look at statistics for that. It doesnt seek to remedy anything, thats something the american people need to do. And while I dont wish death upon those who dont see the problem with everyone owning a gun, I do think that if they were shot at the mall by a lunatic who just happend to have an assult rifle, they might reconsider their opinon.
Either way, I believe it is a problem with the ease of access to guns. Whether you agree with me or not doesnt matter, I'll be happily walking in public without fear of being shot throughout the years to come.
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how did he get hold of the AK-47 in the first place?
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On December 06 2007 20:25 baal wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2007 20:17 CharlieMurphy wrote:On December 06 2007 20:12 baal wrote:On December 06 2007 20:08 micronesia wrote:
Ugh I hope this doesn't actually turn into another argument about whether or not a change in gun legislation would prevent this kind of incident.
On a related note, I wonder why so many more kids nowadays are suffering from adult mental health issues than in the past. Is it just because they are better diagnosed now? Well its hard to paper cut 9 people to death in a mall. The problem is they need to not sell weapons in general to people with depression or taking drugs for certain things. so you suggest a psychological evaluation before purchasing a gun lol... yeah those are reaaaally hard to cheat on. The problem is that only a retard would think you need an AK47 or a hand grenade for self defense!. also statistically a gun in a house hold causes more death to family that owns it than from buglars, so there is no logical argument backing the possesion of such high powered weapons except the 1st amendment... a document wich clearly talks about the people's right to bear arm to defend from a potentionaly dangerous government (revolution). however its not fucking 1800, some people with guns cannot overthrow the government of the united states, thats now how the world works anymore the constitution is clearly outdated.
2nd Amendment ;>>
Also....wtf...hand grenades....where the fuck did he get those?!
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I havent read most of this thread, but I assume there's some massive anti-gun law argument going on. All I have to say is that the founding fathers of America assumed the general will of the public would be good enough to stop these unfortunate disasters such as this one by giving everyone guns.
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On December 07 2007 01:50 Meta wrote:
I havent read most of this thread, but I assume there's some massive anti-gun law argument going on. All I have to say is that the founding fathers of America assumed the general will of the public would be good enough to stop these unfortunate disasters such as this one by giving everyone guns.
Also, they were using guns that took 5 hours to reload.
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On December 06 2007 19:56 baal wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2007 19:43 Mayson wrote:
Too bad there weren't any brave civilians carrying concealed in that mall. There might be nine people alive to enjoy the holidays with their families. Too bad a civilian can posses a fucking high power automatic rifle and hand grenades. Yep, we have the right to defend ourselves, what if a buglar breaks into my house!, i think we will all agree that the best way to deal with it is to toss a few grenades in the "blind" spots like counterstike and if he didnt die rush with our AK47. -_- Its a shame another 10 had to die... but hey atleast a ignorant redneck asshole has the freedom to shoot some cans with his massive gun colection. Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa goes the sheep.
You haven't said one truthful thing aside from "we have the right to defend ourselves."
You can't own an assault rifle easily, and hand grenades are completely illegal. Besides, you don't use a rifle for home- or self-defense because of over-penetration, and the accompanying legal liability.
Next time, think before you click "Post." I'm noticing a pattern in your behavior where you exaggerate everything, and then pass it off as accurate.
On December 06 2007 20:12 baal wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2007 20:08 micronesia wrote:
Ugh I hope this doesn't actually turn into another argument about whether or not a change in gun legislation would prevent this kind of incident.
On a related note, I wonder why so many more kids nowadays are suffering from adult mental health issues than in the past. Is it just because they are better diagnosed now? Well its hard to paper cut 9 people to death in a mall. It's also hard to effectively defend yourself when people want to ban the equipment to do so.
Criminals, by definition don't follow the law. Citizens do. Banning guns leaves citizens unarmed against those who aren't going to follow the laws anyway.
On December 06 2007 20:39 baal wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2007 20:34 CharlieMurphy wrote:On December 06 2007 20:25 baal wrote:On December 06 2007 20:17 CharlieMurphy wrote:On December 06 2007 20:12 baal wrote:On December 06 2007 20:08 micronesia wrote:
Ugh I hope this doesn't actually turn into another argument about whether or not a change in gun legislation would prevent this kind of incident.
On a related note, I wonder why so many more kids nowadays are suffering from adult mental health issues than in the past. Is it just because they are better diagnosed now? Well its hard to paper cut 9 people to death in a mall. The problem is they need to not sell weapons in general to people with depression or taking drugs for certain things. so you suggest a psychological evaluation before purchasing a gun lol... yeah those are reaaaally hard to cheat on. The problem is that only a retard would think you need an AK47 or a hand grenade for self defense!. also statistically a gun in a house hold causes more death to family that owns it than from buglars, so there is no logical argument backing the possesion of such high powered weapons except the 1st amendment... a document wich clearly talks about the people's right to bear arm to defend from a potentionaly dangerous government (revolution). however its not fucking 1800, some people with guns cannot overthrow the government of the united states, thats now how the world works anymore the constitution is clearly outdated. I don't know the laws in Nebraska, but Here in Cali you can't own an automatic weapon. And about your statistic claim about the burglars and family, Thats because people don't take care of their things properly (or teach their kids etc). That and the fact that its not that likely to have a burglar rob your home (out of millions). Thats like banning golfing because you can get hit by lightning. Yes obviously the reason more people die is because they dont take care of their guns properly duh.... but if something that is supoused to STOP deaths is actually causing more... then common sense says WTF... that shit aint working, lets not do it. Actually, it does work, and quite effectively.
The higher concentration of legally-owned firearms in a given area, the lower the crime rate. Whne legislation is passed that gives private citizens to match the firepower and weaponry available to criminals, crime rates go down.
Stop listening to the Brady campaign already.
On December 06 2007 22:29 pyrogenetix wrote:
how the fuck did he get an AK-47 ............ AND THEN.............. GRENADES!?!?!?!
if 19 year olds can get glocks and berettas then yea damn im scared but not -that- scared. i dont understand how this kid is able to purchase or steal an AK-47, then have it in his room, and no one the fuck noticed? i mean that shit fires 7.62 x 39 rounds. in other words BIG FUCKING BULLETS.
sad day. sad day...
oh and i totally see how TL.net is gona be able to turn this one into a child psychology/wats wrong with society/my country is better than your country debate with each post hitting quad digits word count. It's mostly because people somehow think that criminals are bound by laws.
Obviously, they are not. He got them because he was determined. I don't break the law, so I have no idea how he got an AK-47 and hand grenades.
On December 06 2007 22:08 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2007 21:54 Dariush wrote:
Watching TV and time spent on computer is not common only in USA...
The problem is something else.
How in the hell did he get a hold on AK47 ? Not through legal means... which makes me wonder why some people are going to suggest stricter gun laws. DING DING DING! We have a winner.
On December 06 2007 22:58 Lazerflip! wrote:
Pro gun control people are so stupid it makes me want to vomit. If guns were illegal, criminals would still get the guns, just like criminals still get the drugs that they need. Gun control stops law-abiding citizens from getting guns, not people planning a suicidal mass-shooting. If you were going to end your life and kill mass people, I don't think a silly little law would stop you. What the law DOES do (and lack of concealed carry) is prevent law abiding citizens from saving their own lives, and the lives of countless many others, and render them unable to do anything but watch as a crazy kid guns down innocent people in a fucking shopping mall. If we were able to legally carry handguns, this kid would have gotten a shot or two off before being gunned down by someone who was smart enough to carry a concealed weapon for their own protection. But people who are pro-gun control don't care about any of this, they just care about their own agenda of having the government restrict every part of our lives. And this is the result.
P.S. If you don't live in American, here is a little tidbit of information for you. I am 19 years old, and I can legally buy an assault weapon such as an AK-47, but I have to be age 21 to purchase a handgun. Grenades are illegal though, but that just supports my argument that even if something is banned, it will always find it's way into the hands of the criminals, and a concealed carry law would even the odds for law-abiding citizens to save their own asses. Well, we can't have a second winner, but you're completely correct.
In my state, I can't own an assault rifle, or anything fun. Hell, some pistols are banned because of the trigger pull weight.
The point is this: a legally-owned pistol, assault rifle, etc., is of no threat to public safety until it's being used by a criminal.
You have to have a clean record, no history of any mental problems, and so forth. You have to pay the ATF a considerable about of money to look over your application.
It'd be easier, and cheaper, to obtain one illegally. But then again, only criminals do that.
On December 06 2007 23:09 yubee wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2007 22:58 Lazerflip! wrote:
Pro gun control people are so stupid it makes me want to vomit. If guns were illegal, criminals would still get the guns, just like criminals still get the drugs that they need. Gun control stops law-abiding citizens from getting guns, not people planning a suicidal mass-shooting. If you were going to end your life and kill mass people, I don't think a silly little law would stop you. What the law DOES do (and lack of concealed carry) is prevent law abiding citizens from saving their own lives, and the lives of countless many others, and render them unable to do anything but watch as a crazy kid guns down innocent people in a fucking shopping mall. If we were able to legally carry handguns, this kid would have gotten a shot or two off before being gunned down by someone who was smart enough to carry a concealed weapon for their own protection. But people who are pro-gun control don't care about any of this, they just care about their own agenda of having the government restrict every part of our lives. And this is the result.
P.S. If you don't live in American, here is a little tidbit of information for you. I am 19 years old, and I can legally buy an assault weapon such as an AK-47, but I have to be age 21 to purchase a handgun. Grenades are illegal though, but that just supports my argument that even if something is banned, it will always find it's way into the hands of the criminals, and a concealed carry law would even the odds for law-abiding citizens to save their own asses. yeah gee wiz if only i could feel safe knowing that every person had a gun on them at all times to save their own ass edit: you know what, forget the sarcasm, it will be lost on your redneck ass. everyone having a fucking gun would only result in situations escalating needlessly, not "evening the odds to save their own ass". what teenage girl in a mall is going to pull out a piece and shoot some crazy kid with an AK and grenades? how about grandma and her six shooter?how about we let everyone in the mall carry AKs and grenades, that would even the odds even more right? i've seen a lot of dumb confrontations between drunk people, and i'd personally prefer that neither of them were carrying concealed firearms, rather than someone getting shot in the face Show nested quote +If we were able to legally carry handguns, this kid would have gotten a shot or two off before being gunned down by someone who was smart enough to carry a concealed weapon for their own protection. and wtf is this wild wild west? you are a moron Hey, imagine that: everything you said was wrong.
It's good to know you prefer a disarmed, and helpless population unable to do anything about any threat.
Do you know how many people in the US carry a concealed weapon on their person on a daily basis? Thousands per state.
Guess how often those people are involved in a crime? Let me put it this way: the crime rates, facts, and statistics show you're safer surrounded by a bunch of private citizens legally carrying concealed weapons than one criminal.
"When seconds count, the police are only minutes away." Remember that someday when your life is being directly threatened, and you can't do anything because you don't want to be a cowboy. I guess you value the life of a criminal over your own.
But I guess that's just natural selection at work.
On December 06 2007 23:15 MarklarMarklar wrote:
crazy yanks with their pro gun bullshit.
"for self defense" ya right, i've never seen any sprees like this get stopped by someone carrying a gun, doesn't seem to be especially effective in comparison to the probability of crimes being commited with them instead. You fuckheads probably dont even know how high your murder rate per capita is; in comparison to nations with banned or extremely restricted use of guns that is.
pro gun yanks are fucking backwards, the goal should be a world without guns, not a world where everyone have one for "self defense".
CAUSE THAT WOULD BE A HORRIBLE FUCKING WORLD I agree. The world should be a world without guns, as a disarmed population is much easier to control.
It worked for Hitler. Good things those Jews couldn't defend themselves!
Oh, and I do know how high the murder rate per capita is. It's higher where guns are banned.
On December 06 2007 23:33 Jibba wrote:The people involved in school/teenage shootings generally aren't criminals before then. Do you really think a 16 year old is going to have access to the avenues for a gun that an organized criminal has? Since you like playing extreme hypothetical, what if your concealed weapon hero is a bad shot and hits a bystander? Vigilante justice always seems awesome until someone misses. Show nested quote +But people who are pro-gun control don't care about any of this, they just care about their own agenda of having the government restrict every part of our lives. Oh? Last time I checked I was a Libertarian and card carrying ACLU member. Yeah, we really love when the government tells us how to live. The fact of the matter is the second amendment is horribly misinterpreted, any constitutional historian can tell you that. It's about allowing well organized militias to purchase guns (which were illegal to own) because the government didn't have the money to. Since the 1903 Militia Act, it's in reference to the National Guard, not private militias which had been ineffective in the Spanish-American war. Arming our National Guard is no longer a financial problem for our government, thus the amendment is irrelevant, and it certainly has nothing to do with arming private citizens. And "but Thomas Jefferson said blah blah Right of the People to abolish blah blah." He meant you should vote, not shoot people, dumbass. Wrong. He was a criminal before the shooting started.
He was in possession of an assault rifle, which isn't legal at 19 years of age. He was in possession of hand grenades, which isn't legal for any private citizen.
This makes him a criminal before the shooting occurred.
Oh, and the Supreme Court decided the 2nd Amendment applies to private citizens. Too bad.
For all the pro-gun control sheep: WAHH WAHHH.
On December 07 2007 00:41 Hawk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2007 00:25 baal wrote:On December 07 2007 00:02 Lazerflip! wrote:On December 06 2007 23:58 baal wrote:On December 06 2007 23:47 Lazerflip! wrote:
If people would take the time to learn to use a gun and respect a gun, it would be an excellent tool to protect yourself and your family. The accidental deaths are due to the fact that there are such asinine restrictions on guns that people treat it as though it's a black market product. If there was more gun safety information available, and more people owned guns and respected them (and knew how to use them properly, as well) someone would be VERY hesitant about robbing a bank, breaking into a house, carjacking someone at gunpoint, etc. because such behavior would be very likely to get them killed. The thing is, if somebody tries to steal the car from you with a gun, and u also have a gun, chances are that somebody is probably going to die... and it might be you. You completely missed the point by a mile. It's not about actually killing the guy with your gun, it's about the thought process involved in the guy taking your car; if he was afraid you might have a gun, he is not going to try to carjack you. This is where concealed carry laws come in. It's a deterrent to crime. If he actually DOES carjack you, you obviously don't have to pull out your gun, you can just let him take your car, but if every other person carried a concealed weapon, that person would have to think very long and hard before whipping out a gun and stealing a car, because his risk:reward ratio just changed a whole lot. Rather than looking at a potential stiff jail sentence, he is looking at a very serious risk of death. Many people are willing to risk jail time, that much is evident, but not many people are willing to stare death in the face just to commit a simple crime. Please read ALL my post before replying ffs. this is what i said previously: If you think people owning guns are a deterent for robberies and stuff let me tell you that is NOT true, just see Texas (the state that owns most guns obv) murder and crime rate, research it, its not helping at all (i wont put source because i saw it a while ago). You are delutional if you think a few more peple owning guns will deter crime, its also stupid to carry a gun if u dont plan to use it as u said lol wtf... then whats the point. Actually in your fanasy world if every single person carried a gun, it would be a super safe world... well one thing is certain, armed robberies would go down, (they will still steal it while you are asleep... or they will rob your hosue when nobody is in... like 90% of the cases).... but mother fucking shit... i wouldnt want to get into a fender bender or get into a drunken bar fight in that fantasy world of yours. That last line is my biggest concern. A lot of people are hot headed and wanna act like badasses. I'm ok with guns at home/work for protection. The background checks should be insane though... don't want no crazies getting their hands on a gun. Carrying concealed weapons is just gonna lead to problems though. Really? For years it's been legal in an overwhelmingly large majority of states in the US, and it hasn't caused any problems.
The mount of misinformation in this thread is astounding.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
On December 07 2007 01:12 MiniRoman wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2007 00:55 Hawk wrote:
are you guys proposing a total ban on guns? ie: cant even use for hunting purposes? Hunting is fucking retarded. Guns should be banned for hunting. Melee only. Make that shit fair. Ehhehehe. =) I've just remembered the lvl99 rabbit topic, I think it also should only be restricted to 1v1.
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Mayson what a fucking uninformed idiot you are.
shit
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its quite sad that so many people in the USA dont understand the reasons for events like these.
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and making something illegal WIL NOT MAKE THE ITEM DISAPEAR. drugs anyone? lol US policies and belifs are a joke
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Way to be a condescending, redneck prick.
Yeah moron, if everyone carried guns like you want them to, then next time you get into a bar fight, you could die instead of getting roughed up. Road rage? People are fucking nuts here in New Jersey on the road. I certainly wouldn't want some idiot pulling a gun on another person cuz he got flipped off.
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Mayson, if its information you want to provide than do so by providing actual unbiased statistics from reputable studies. Until then I will not listen to your self centered babbling/
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On December 07 2007 02:18 Mayson wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2007 23:09 yubee wrote:On December 06 2007 22:58 Lazerflip! wrote:
Pro gun control people are so stupid it makes me want to vomit. If guns were illegal, criminals would still get the guns, just like criminals still get the drugs that they need. Gun control stops law-abiding citizens from getting guns, not people planning a suicidal mass-shooting. If you were going to end your life and kill mass people, I don't think a silly little law would stop you. What the law DOES do (and lack of concealed carry) is prevent law abiding citizens from saving their own lives, and the lives of countless many others, and render them unable to do anything but watch as a crazy kid guns down innocent people in a fucking shopping mall. If we were able to legally carry handguns, this kid would have gotten a shot or two off before being gunned down by someone who was smart enough to carry a concealed weapon for their own protection. But people who are pro-gun control don't care about any of this, they just care about their own agenda of having the government restrict every part of our lives. And this is the result.
P.S. If you don't live in American, here is a little tidbit of information for you. I am 19 years old, and I can legally buy an assault weapon such as an AK-47, but I have to be age 21 to purchase a handgun. Grenades are illegal though, but that just supports my argument that even if something is banned, it will always find it's way into the hands of the criminals, and a concealed carry law would even the odds for law-abiding citizens to save their own asses. yeah gee wiz if only i could feel safe knowing that every person had a gun on them at all times to save their own ass edit: you know what, forget the sarcasm, it will be lost on your redneck ass. everyone having a fucking gun would only result in situations escalating needlessly, not "evening the odds to save their own ass". what teenage girl in a mall is going to pull out a piece and shoot some crazy kid with an AK and grenades? how about grandma and her six shooter?how about we let everyone in the mall carry AKs and grenades, that would even the odds even more right? i've seen a lot of dumb confrontations between drunk people, and i'd personally prefer that neither of them were carrying concealed firearms, rather than someone getting shot in the face If we were able to legally carry handguns, this kid would have gotten a shot or two off before being gunned down by someone who was smart enough to carry a concealed weapon for their own protection. and wtf is this wild wild west? you are a moron Hey, imagine that: everything you said was wrong. It's good to know you prefer a disarmed, and helpless population unable to do anything about any threat. Do you know how many people in the US carry a concealed weapon on their person on a daily basis? Thousands per state. Guess how often those people are involved in a crime? Let me put it this way: the crime rates, facts, and statistics show you're safer surrounded by a bunch of private citizens legally carrying concealed weapons than one criminal. "When seconds count, the police are only minutes away." Remember that someday when your life is being directly threatened, and you can't do anything because you don't want to be a cowboy. I guess you value the life of a criminal over your own. But I guess that's just natural selection at work. LOL who's this guy
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On December 07 2007 02:18 Mayson wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2007 19:56 baal wrote:On December 06 2007 19:43 Mayson wrote:
Too bad there weren't any brave civilians carrying concealed in that mall. There might be nine people alive to enjoy the holidays with their families. Too bad a civilian can posses a fucking high power automatic rifle and hand grenades. Yep, we have the right to defend ourselves, what if a buglar breaks into my house!, i think we will all agree that the best way to deal with it is to toss a few grenades in the "blind" spots like counterstike and if he didnt die rush with our AK47. -_- Its a shame another 10 had to die... but hey atleast a ignorant redneck asshole has the freedom to shoot some cans with his massive gun colection. Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa goes the sheep. You haven't said one truthful thing aside from "we have the right to defend ourselves." You can't own an assault rifle easily, and hand grenades are completely illegal. Besides, you don't use a rifle for home- or self-defense because of over-penetration, and the accompanying legal liability. Next time, think before you click "Post." I'm noticing a pattern in your behavior where you exaggerate everything, and then pass it off as accurate. Show nested quote +On December 06 2007 20:12 baal wrote:On December 06 2007 20:08 micronesia wrote:
Ugh I hope this doesn't actually turn into another argument about whether or not a change in gun legislation would prevent this kind of incident.
On a related note, I wonder why so many more kids nowadays are suffering from adult mental health issues than in the past. Is it just because they are better diagnosed now? Well its hard to paper cut 9 people to death in a mall. It's also hard to effectively defend yourself when people want to ban the equipment to do so. Criminals, by definition don't follow the law. Citizens do. Banning guns leaves citizens unarmed against those who aren't going to follow the laws anyway. Show nested quote +On December 06 2007 20:39 baal wrote:On December 06 2007 20:34 CharlieMurphy wrote:On December 06 2007 20:25 baal wrote:On December 06 2007 20:17 CharlieMurphy wrote:On December 06 2007 20:12 baal wrote:On December 06 2007 20:08 micronesia wrote:
Ugh I hope this doesn't actually turn into another argument about whether or not a change in gun legislation would prevent this kind of incident.
On a related note, I wonder why so many more kids nowadays are suffering from adult mental health issues than in the past. Is it just because they are better diagnosed now? Well its hard to paper cut 9 people to death in a mall. The problem is they need to not sell weapons in general to people with depression or taking drugs for certain things. so you suggest a psychological evaluation before purchasing a gun lol... yeah those are reaaaally hard to cheat on. The problem is that only a retard would think you need an AK47 or a hand grenade for self defense!. also statistically a gun in a house hold causes more death to family that owns it than from buglars, so there is no logical argument backing the possesion of such high powered weapons except the 1st amendment... a document wich clearly talks about the people's right to bear arm to defend from a potentionaly dangerous government (revolution). however its not fucking 1800, some people with guns cannot overthrow the government of the united states, thats now how the world works anymore the constitution is clearly outdated. I don't know the laws in Nebraska, but Here in Cali you can't own an automatic weapon. And about your statistic claim about the burglars and family, Thats because people don't take care of their things properly (or teach their kids etc). That and the fact that its not that likely to have a burglar rob your home (out of millions). Thats like banning golfing because you can get hit by lightning. Yes obviously the reason more people die is because they dont take care of their guns properly duh.... but if something that is supoused to STOP deaths is actually causing more... then common sense says WTF... that shit aint working, lets not do it. Actually, it does work, and quite effectively. The higher concentration of legally-owned firearms in a given area, the lower the crime rate. Whne legislation is passed that gives private citizens to match the firepower and weaponry available to criminals, crime rates go down. Stop listening to the Brady campaign already. Show nested quote +On December 06 2007 22:29 pyrogenetix wrote:
how the fuck did he get an AK-47 ............ AND THEN.............. GRENADES!?!?!?!
if 19 year olds can get glocks and berettas then yea damn im scared but not -that- scared. i dont understand how this kid is able to purchase or steal an AK-47, then have it in his room, and no one the fuck noticed? i mean that shit fires 7.62 x 39 rounds. in other words BIG FUCKING BULLETS.
sad day. sad day...
oh and i totally see how TL.net is gona be able to turn this one into a child psychology/wats wrong with society/my country is better than your country debate with each post hitting quad digits word count. It's mostly because people somehow think that criminals are bound by laws. Obviously, they are not. He got them because he was determined. I don't break the law, so I have no idea how he got an AK-47 and hand grenades. Show nested quote +On December 06 2007 22:08 micronesia wrote:On December 06 2007 21:54 Dariush wrote:
Watching TV and time spent on computer is not common only in USA...
The problem is something else.
How in the hell did he get a hold on AK47 ? Not through legal means... which makes me wonder why some people are going to suggest stricter gun laws. DING DING DING! We have a winner. Show nested quote +On December 06 2007 22:58 Lazerflip! wrote:
Pro gun control people are so stupid it makes me want to vomit. If guns were illegal, criminals would still get the guns, just like criminals still get the drugs that they need. Gun control stops law-abiding citizens from getting guns, not people planning a suicidal mass-shooting. If you were going to end your life and kill mass people, I don't think a silly little law would stop you. What the law DOES do (and lack of concealed carry) is prevent law abiding citizens from saving their own lives, and the lives of countless many others, and render them unable to do anything but watch as a crazy kid guns down innocent people in a fucking shopping mall. If we were able to legally carry handguns, this kid would have gotten a shot or two off before being gunned down by someone who was smart enough to carry a concealed weapon for their own protection. But people who are pro-gun control don't care about any of this, they just care about their own agenda of having the government restrict every part of our lives. And this is the result.
P.S. If you don't live in American, here is a little tidbit of information for you. I am 19 years old, and I can legally buy an assault weapon such as an AK-47, but I have to be age 21 to purchase a handgun. Grenades are illegal though, but that just supports my argument that even if something is banned, it will always find it's way into the hands of the criminals, and a concealed carry law would even the odds for law-abiding citizens to save their own asses. Well, we can't have a second winner, but you're completely correct. In my state, I can't own an assault rifle, or anything fun. Hell, some pistols are banned because of the trigger pull weight. The point is this: a legally-owned pistol, assault rifle, etc., is of no threat to public safety until it's being used by a criminal. You have to have a clean record, no history of any mental problems, and so forth. You have to pay the ATF a considerable about of money to look over your application. It'd be easier, and cheaper, to obtain one illegally. But then again, only criminals do that. Show nested quote +On December 06 2007 23:09 yubee wrote:On December 06 2007 22:58 Lazerflip! wrote:
Pro gun control people are so stupid it makes me want to vomit. If guns were illegal, criminals would still get the guns, just like criminals still get the drugs that they need. Gun control stops law-abiding citizens from getting guns, not people planning a suicidal mass-shooting. If you were going to end your life and kill mass people, I don't think a silly little law would stop you. What the law DOES do (and lack of concealed carry) is prevent law abiding citizens from saving their own lives, and the lives of countless many others, and render them unable to do anything but watch as a crazy kid guns down innocent people in a fucking shopping mall. If we were able to legally carry handguns, this kid would have gotten a shot or two off before being gunned down by someone who was smart enough to carry a concealed weapon for their own protection. But people who are pro-gun control don't care about any of this, they just care about their own agenda of having the government restrict every part of our lives. And this is the result.
P.S. If you don't live in American, here is a little tidbit of information for you. I am 19 years old, and I can legally buy an assault weapon such as an AK-47, but I have to be age 21 to purchase a handgun. Grenades are illegal though, but that just supports my argument that even if something is banned, it will always find it's way into the hands of the criminals, and a concealed carry law would even the odds for law-abiding citizens to save their own asses. yeah gee wiz if only i could feel safe knowing that every person had a gun on them at all times to save their own ass edit: you know what, forget the sarcasm, it will be lost on your redneck ass. everyone having a fucking gun would only result in situations escalating needlessly, not "evening the odds to save their own ass". what teenage girl in a mall is going to pull out a piece and shoot some crazy kid with an AK and grenades? how about grandma and her six shooter?how about we let everyone in the mall carry AKs and grenades, that would even the odds even more right? i've seen a lot of dumb confrontations between drunk people, and i'd personally prefer that neither of them were carrying concealed firearms, rather than someone getting shot in the face If we were able to legally carry handguns, this kid would have gotten a shot or two off before being gunned down by someone who was smart enough to carry a concealed weapon for their own protection. and wtf is this wild wild west? you are a moron Hey, imagine that: everything you said was wrong. It's good to know you prefer a disarmed, and helpless population unable to do anything about any threat. Do you know how many people in the US carry a concealed weapon on their person on a daily basis? Thousands per state. Guess how often those people are involved in a crime? Let me put it this way: the crime rates, facts, and statistics show you're safer surrounded by a bunch of private citizens legally carrying concealed weapons than one criminal. "When seconds count, the police are only minutes away." Remember that someday when your life is being directly threatened, and you can't do anything because you don't want to be a cowboy. I guess you value the life of a criminal over your own. But I guess that's just natural selection at work. Show nested quote +On December 06 2007 23:15 MarklarMarklar wrote:
crazy yanks with their pro gun bullshit.
"for self defense" ya right, i've never seen any sprees like this get stopped by someone carrying a gun, doesn't seem to be especially effective in comparison to the probability of crimes being commited with them instead. You fuckheads probably dont even know how high your murder rate per capita is; in comparison to nations with banned or extremely restricted use of guns that is.
pro gun yanks are fucking backwards, the goal should be a world without guns, not a world where everyone have one for "self defense".
CAUSE THAT WOULD BE A HORRIBLE FUCKING WORLD I agree. The world should be a world without guns, as a disarmed population is much easier to control. It worked for Hitler. Good things those Jews couldn't defend themselves! Oh, and I do know how high the murder rate per capita is. It's higher where guns are banned. Show nested quote +On December 06 2007 23:33 Jibba wrote:The people involved in school/teenage shootings generally aren't criminals before then. Do you really think a 16 year old is going to have access to the avenues for a gun that an organized criminal has? Since you like playing extreme hypothetical, what if your concealed weapon hero is a bad shot and hits a bystander? Vigilante justice always seems awesome until someone misses. But people who are pro-gun control don't care about any of this, they just care about their own agenda of having the government restrict every part of our lives. Oh? Last time I checked I was a Libertarian and card carrying ACLU member. Yeah, we really love when the government tells us how to live. The fact of the matter is the second amendment is horribly misinterpreted, any constitutional historian can tell you that. It's about allowing well organized militias to purchase guns (which were illegal to own) because the government didn't have the money to. Since the 1903 Militia Act, it's in reference to the National Guard, not private militias which had been ineffective in the Spanish-American war. Arming our National Guard is no longer a financial problem for our government, thus the amendment is irrelevant, and it certainly has nothing to do with arming private citizens. And "but Thomas Jefferson said blah blah Right of the People to abolish blah blah." He meant you should vote, not shoot people, dumbass. Wrong. He was a criminal before the shooting started. He was in possession of an assault rifle, which isn't legal at 19 years of age. He was in possession of hand grenades, which isn't legal for any private citizen. This makes him a criminal before the shooting occurred. Oh, and the Supreme Court decided the 2nd Amendment applies to private citizens. Too bad. For all the pro-gun control sheep: WAHH WAHHH. Show nested quote +On December 07 2007 00:41 Hawk wrote:On December 07 2007 00:25 baal wrote:On December 07 2007 00:02 Lazerflip! wrote:On December 06 2007 23:58 baal wrote:On December 06 2007 23:47 Lazerflip! wrote:
If people would take the time to learn to use a gun and respect a gun, it would be an excellent tool to protect yourself and your family. The accidental deaths are due to the fact that there are such asinine restrictions on guns that people treat it as though it's a black market product. If there was more gun safety information available, and more people owned guns and respected them (and knew how to use them properly, as well) someone would be VERY hesitant about robbing a bank, breaking into a house, carjacking someone at gunpoint, etc. because such behavior would be very likely to get them killed. The thing is, if somebody tries to steal the car from you with a gun, and u also have a gun, chances are that somebody is probably going to die... and it might be you. You completely missed the point by a mile. It's not about actually killing the guy with your gun, it's about the thought process involved in the guy taking your car; if he was afraid you might have a gun, he is not going to try to carjack you. This is where concealed carry laws come in. It's a deterrent to crime. If he actually DOES carjack you, you obviously don't have to pull out your gun, you can just let him take your car, but if every other person carried a concealed weapon, that person would have to think very long and hard before whipping out a gun and stealing a car, because his risk:reward ratio just changed a whole lot. Rather than looking at a potential stiff jail sentence, he is looking at a very serious risk of death. Many people are willing to risk jail time, that much is evident, but not many people are willing to stare death in the face just to commit a simple crime. Please read ALL my post before replying ffs. this is what i said previously: If you think people owning guns are a deterent for robberies and stuff let me tell you that is NOT true, just see Texas (the state that owns most guns obv) murder and crime rate, research it, its not helping at all (i wont put source because i saw it a while ago). You are delutional if you think a few more peple owning guns will deter crime, its also stupid to carry a gun if u dont plan to use it as u said lol wtf... then whats the point. Actually in your fanasy world if every single person carried a gun, it would be a super safe world... well one thing is certain, armed robberies would go down, (they will still steal it while you are asleep... or they will rob your hosue when nobody is in... like 90% of the cases).... but mother fucking shit... i wouldnt want to get into a fender bender or get into a drunken bar fight in that fantasy world of yours. That last line is my biggest concern. A lot of people are hot headed and wanna act like badasses. I'm ok with guns at home/work for protection. The background checks should be insane though... don't want no crazies getting their hands on a gun. Carrying concealed weapons is just gonna lead to problems though. Really? For years it's been legal in an overwhelmingly large majority of states in the US, and it hasn't caused any problems. The mount of misinformation in this thread is astounding.
i think the biggest flaw is that you see things black and white, you categorize criminals as unhumans, unmoral, and you associate illegal activity with criminals strongly. Maybe once we stop categorizing ourselves, stop using the same punishments/consequences/crticism to criminals in general, we start using our brains and solve the problems at their root this kinda shit wouldnt happen very often. blaming emos and video games wont get us very far.
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On December 07 2007 01:45 961254 wrote:
how did he get hold of the AK-47 in the first place?
because they are available?
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On December 07 2007 02:18 Mayson wrote:
But I guess that's just natural selection at work.
Infertile? Get a gun.
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Mason: just to illustrate what a fucking idiot you are, here's some facts!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States#States
New York City, New York
Population Violent Crime Homicide Rape Robbery Assault
8,101,321 687.4 7.0 17.6 300.9 361.9
Property Crime Burglary Larceny Motor vehicle theft
2,113.1 322.2 1,530.8 260.1
Dallas, Texas
Population Violent Crime Homicide Rape Robbery Assault
1,228,613 1,315.7 20.2 47.9 607.7 640.0
Property Crime Burglary Larceny Motor vehicle theft
7,656.3 1,882.3 4,481.4 1,292.6
Now lets look at the gun laws!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_the_United_States_(by_state)#Texas
Any explanation as to how NYC could have such lower crime rates despite having one of the most strict gun control laws in the nation?
edit: all that work spacing it and doesn't work. bah. graphic is in the first link.
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On December 07 2007 02:44 Hawk wrote:Mason: just to illustrate what a fucking idiot you are, here's some facts! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States#StatesNew York City, New York Population Violent Crime Homicide Rape Robbery Assault 8,101,321 687.4 7.0 17.6 300.9 361.9 Property Crime Burglary Larceny Motor vehicle theft 2,113.1 322.2 1,530.8 260.1 Dallas, TexasPopulation Violent Crime Homicide Rape Robbery Assault 1,228,613 1,315.7 20.2 47.9 607.7 640.0 Property Crime Burglary Larceny Motor vehicle theft7,656.3 1,882.3 4,481.4 1,292.6 Now lets look at the gun laws! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_the_United_States_(by_state)#TexasAny explanation as to how NYC could have such lower crime rates despite having one of the most strict gun control laws in the nation? because d00d the population is being controlled by hitler clearly!
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This topic = owned by Nony tbh. Anyhow, for anyone arguing that gun control laws keep guns out of the hands of criminals, I challenge you to survey about 100 American teens and ask them if they smoke marijuana. If they do, ask them how hard it is to get it. Not that hard, I bet you will find. Yet it is illegal. I have a friend who is a convicted felon, and he owns more guns than I do. You may know that it is illegal for a felon convicted of a violent crime to purchase a firearm, yet he has quite an arsenal. How? There are simply other places than Wal Mart to buy things, and it's very easy to get illegal goods. There are two types of violent crimes involving guns; one type which we are discussing here, the premeditated crime. These usually involve planned shootings motivated by pent-up rage, and are much more likely to be lethal. The other kind are what I like to call "impulse crimes", that is, someone gets a sudden surge of anger for one reason or another and lashes out. These are usually committed by ordinarily law-abiding citizens. It is also unlikely that these crimes will result in murder. Gun control laws MIGHT go some way to prevent, or at least reduce the severity of, impulse crimes. Obviously on an impulse, you will not have time to purchase a gun on the street. But a premeditated act of hate will not be stopped by a mere gun control law; in fact, it will be worsened by the fact that this person will have a gun regardless of laws, and it is almost a virtual GUARANTEE that none of his victims will be armed. So what you have is in essence a slaughter. Using Canada as an example is silly, too, because Canadians are very laid back and there are a LOT less black people in Canada than there are in the USA, and thus less crime. The cities are less foul, too. But I bet if a Canadian really wanted to shoot up the local shopping mall due to his Canadian teenage angst, he would not find it terribly hard to obtain a gun, and the opposition he would meet in committing the act would be laughable at best.
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