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On December 07 2007 02:46 Lazerflip! wrote:
Using Canada as an example is silly, too, because Canadians are very laid back and there are a LOT less black people in Canada than there are in the USA, and thus less crime. The cities are less foul, too. But I bet if a Canadian really wanted to shoot up the local shopping mall due to his Canadian teenage angst, he would not find it terribly hard to obtain a gun, and the opposition he would meet in committing the act would be laughable at best.
LOOOOOL
I can't be the only one that read this.
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On December 07 2007 03:41 Klockan3 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2007 03:21 BluzMan wrote:On December 07 2007 03:18 [r]h_probe wrote:On December 07 2007 02:46 Lazerflip! wrote:
This topic = owned by Nony tbh. Anyhow, for anyone arguing that gun control laws keep guns out of the hands of criminals, I challenge you to survey about 100 American teens and ask them if they smoke marijuana. If they do, ask them how hard it is to get it. Not that hard, I bet you will find. Yet it is illegal. Cool d00d. However anyone can grow pot, but it takes a special skill set to manufacture a working handgun. Which just proves you don't know shit about growing good pot. I think the point is that growing drugs and smuggling drugs is a lot easier than manufactoring automatic weapons and then smuggle those. Its a lot easier to find weapons than drugs, and its a lot less money to earn from it while a much bigger risk for the smugglers so you wont have many people with guns unless they are working hard to get them into the country. If you ask 100k persons in sweden if they can get their hands on an illegal pistol, i bet that very very few know any contacts that could get them that, and automatic weapons are almost impossible.
It is actually kinda easy here. Chances are, if you know a dealer for anything, you can get your hands on one.
But yeah, definitely harder to smuggle guns in. You can't exactly swallow a couple hundred guns in a condom and shit them out =p
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
Washington D.C passed a gun control law banning pistols (or concealed weapons I believe) iirc and actually experienced a spike in deaths from firearms. It has been kept pretty hush hush by the media because its viewed as the most tangible example of a US gun control scenario. It kind of confirms a lot of what those "red necks" are saying.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
On December 07 2007 03:44 Rev0lution wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2007 03:38 BluzMan wrote:On December 07 2007 03:37 Rev0lution wrote:
I think the biggest problem with this kid and most anti-social people is that their family pretty much screwed them up from the beginning.
Family is the root of society. I don't see anyone criticizing the role of the parents. Read better. Sorry I didn't read the entire 7 pages, I did see parental discipline up there with reasons for shootings. It's not even that. They need love <3
Which is precisely what I said in my post about american career-pursuing mentality.
I dunno, there's a damn good reason weapons are illegal here in Russia - our nation is famous for it's drinking (we don't probably beat Estonia or Finland, though), and if people could buy guns, there would be too many drunkies shooting each other for fun. But if you really want to get a gun, it's possible. I don't have links to any exact suppliers (and that's perfectly understandabe given I've never needed a gun), but I don't think it would be too hard to find them if I really wanted. That's not the point. The root of the problem lies in the kids themselves.
I'm trying to make a point that post-industrial over-civilized societies have a dominating mindset that produces such incidents on a regular basis. All those emos, suicides, crowd shootings are a byproduct of overly civilized life. Life is very fast in those societies, it is very taxing on one's mind and mental health, leading to depression. Depression on it's turn leads to anti-social behavior. Couple it with a complete lack of coherent ideology in high-tech countries (because, you know, "scientists proved there is no god"), abundance of useless information (all those flashy ads and false stereotypes generated by media - "buy our lipstick and be a better person") and you get quite an unstable mix that could blow up at any minute. Modern "developed" societies were very quick to dethrone religion, not realizing that, even though it's statements seem absurd, it serves a very important role of pacifying population and giving people a guideline for living. With religion gone, and philosophy coming to a halt, people who have nothing overly important to worry about start pondering on why they are doing all that shitty stuff they do and find no answer. Note the suicide rates in less wealthy coutries - they are minimal. Methaphorically speaking, when you have to care about supporting your survival, you simply don't have the time to think about suicide or any other stupid crap.
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On December 07 2007 03:59 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
Washington D.C passed a gun control law banning pistols (or concealed weapons I believe) iirc and actually experienced a spike in deaths from firearms. It has been kept pretty hush hush by the media because its viewed as the most tangible example of a US gun control scenario. It kind of confirms a lot of what those "red necks" are saying.
statistical studies is not a one dimensional thing ;p
perhaps they forgot the variable "existing handguns put into the population due to less gun control in the past" and actually go all the way to remove them while having this law suddenly "turned" on.
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Anti-depressants...interesting, many shooters have been on them.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
regardless gun control didnt exist, then it existed. The changes that occurred following that event have been found noticeably unfavorable. Maybe it was just a bad year. Maybe these people are all being brainwashed by a Russian space station. Or maybe its a indication that gun control does have a negative impact when its publicly stated "ok, people are no longer allowed to carry weapons."
Criminals dont have to worry about a store filled with people who have pistols in their purses or bags.. but there is at least the possibility that someone is. That possibility creates a detterant mechanism that can and does prevent crime. Not all obviously. And people need to stop thinking that every american carries a gun, we dont. But the fact that some do because its their right means that we find ourselves experiencing a positive effect of Foucault's "Panopticism." 
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I sense a new TEAMLIQUIDSUCKS video after the complete shit this thread turned out to be. The posters that are actually intelligent here need to resist arguing with the morons because you'll just be frustrating yourselves, just my advice.
Although, if you are able to wade through the bullshit there is some hilariously stupid things in some of the posts that are either the work of trolls or complete idiots; I like the quote Spike pointed out at the top of this page.
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On December 07 2007 04:13 {88}iNcontroL wrote:regardless gun control didnt exist, then it existed. The changes that occurred following that event have been found noticeably unfavorable. Maybe it was just a bad year. Maybe these people are all being brainwashed by a Russian space station. Or maybe its a indication that gun control does have a negative impact when its publicly stated "ok, people are no longer allowed to carry weapons." Criminals dont have to worry about a store filled with people who have pistols in their purses or bags.. but there is at least the possibility that someone is. That possibility creates a detterant mechanism that can and does prevent crime. Not all obviously. And people need to stop thinking that every american carries a gun, we dont. But the fact that some do because its their right means that we find ourselves experiencing a positive effect of Foucault's "Panopticism."
place automated turrets in the mall  that will deter criminals with guns
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
Ok you get to work on changing policy to Skynet and I will continue to argue the real world!
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United States22883 Posts
The DC gun prohibition was passed in 1975 and its massive crime spike was between 1987 and 1997, so I don't think it's a fair correlation. You've also got to consider that it's still extremely easy to bring in guns from VA and MD and that DC has a huge amount of other problems besides gun related crimes.
The poorest highschool in the country is also the closest one to Congress, if that tells you anything about the present state of Washington DC.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
there you have it The info was passed to me converesly so I was under the impression it was recent. I wont make any further arguements for it as those numbers seem to be a lot uglier than what I had in mind.
Anyways I agree that the gun laws are outdated but I also think that outlawing guns in general wont stop these kind of things from happening. Its not like he legally obtained an Ak-47 and some grenades. People die from guns yes, its horrible. But I really do think that in todays day and age I would think people would want the ability to defend their family and self if they so choose.
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just take a moment of silence, and consider the scenario that every one in the world has a gun. whereever you go, people around you all have guns. you actually feel safer? when you argue on some bad products with a merchant, a fight after too much beer, some road rage and collision arguments, how about a protest with shooting guns instead of throwing bottles?
there are so many scenarios that could go horribly wrong and much worse. the cons of allowing everyone to carry a gun far outweight the pros of protection against those "extreme criminals"
we all know how ignorant humans can be at times, and how a law-abiding citizen can do outrageous things at times.
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United States22883 Posts
It'll be interesting to find out how he got the crap anyways. Redneck uncle in the military or something?
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On December 07 2007 04:10 JensOfSweden wrote:
Anti-depressants...interesting, many shooters have been on them.
ya, psychiatrists in the united states(and some other places) has a incredibly high tendency of putting people on them, even if they don't really need it.
They are pretty good at inducing weird thought patterns, get into a deep discussion with someone on anti depressants, they can be pretty weird.
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Sad to say, I think this kind of stuff's gonna get more frequent.
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If you can't hold on to a job at Mc Donalds and it probably was the best job he could get. Stab in the dark, he screwed up everything he ever did. Copycatting other shooters in his warped mind this was going out with a bang. I have no link to back it up. But in the Netherlands most homocides are from stabwounds or brawles. If someone gets shot it makes it on the national news.
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I blame it on the parents, if you really think about it, they hold 80% of the blame for this kid's demise and the other 9 people who are dead.
I'm scared, this could have happened next to anyone's home. 
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United States22883 Posts
More updates:+ Show Spoiler +Hawkins lived with a friend's family. The mother, Debra Maruca Kovac,said she found a suicide note after getting a phone call from Hawkins about 1 p.m., just minutes before the shootings.
"He basically said how sorry he was for everything," Maruca Kovac said of the note. "He didn't want to be a burden to people and that he was a piece of s--- all of his life and that now he'd be famous."
She said he told her he'd just been fired from his job at a McDonald's restaurant.
"I said, 'Come home and we'll talk about it,' " she recounted. "He said, 'It's too late.' He said he'd left a note explaining everything."
She said Hawkins was a friend of her sons who "reminded me of a pound puppy that nobody wanted." He came to live with her family about a year and a half ago, telling her he could not stay with his own family because of "some issues with his stepmother."
The governor said Hawkins had been a ward of the state for about four years, but he did not specify in what capacity. The state's custody was terminated in August of 2006, Heineman said. He did not provide any further details.
Maruca Kovac described Hawkins as well-behaved, although "he had a lot of emotional problems, obviously."
She told the Omaha World-Herald that Hawkins showed her an assault rifle the night before the rampage, but because of his mild demeanor she wasn't alarmed.
Police believe Hawkins stole the AK-47 from his stepfather's home, Warren said. They are trying to trace the weapon and determine whether the stepfather owned it legally, he added.
...
A friend of Hawkins' said he hadn't thought Hawkins was capable of such violence.
"He was the one guy, you know, if people would be getting in a fight he'd be trying to break it up," Shawn Saunders, who had known Hawkins for about two and a half years, told CNN. "If there were arguments amongst our friends or groups, he was kind of like the calm, cool and collected one."
So obviously he had a bad upbringing and bad biological parents, but he wasn't a social outcast. And clearly he didn't have criminal connections to obtain the gun, he probably stole it from his stepfather which again highlights how ridiculous it is that people can own assault rifles in this country.
No grenades were involved from what I've read.
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[QUOTE]On December 07 2007 06:19 Jibba wrote:
She told the Omaha World-Herald that Hawkins showed her an assault rifle the night before the rampage, but because of his mild demeanor she wasn't alarmed.
/QUOTE]
WHAT?????!?!?!?
'HAI, LOOK WHAT I GOT LOL!'
yeah, teenagers typically have fucking assault rifles. holy fuck.
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EPT
