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On November 08 2024 15:06 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2024 11:02 BlackJack wrote:On November 08 2024 10:30 Turbovolver wrote:On November 07 2024 18:31 BlackJack wrote:On November 07 2024 12:30 Turbovolver wrote:On November 07 2024 11:56 BlackJack wrote:
Because being the best selling EV truck in the world is clearly bad, right? Surely I’m the irrational one for thinking otherwise. 2024 Movies Tierlist, by BlackJack 1 Inside Out 2 $1,697,092,880 2 Deadpool & Wolverine $1,337,792,962 3 Despicable Me 4 $967,529,476 4 Dune: Part Two $714,444,358 5 Godzilla x Kong: The New Empire $571,750,016 6 Kung Fu Panda 4 $547,634,675 7 Beetlejuice Beetlejuice $449,011,632 8 Bad Boys: Ride or Die $404,453,960 9 Kingdom of the Planet of the Apes $397,378,150 10 Twisters $370,962,265 Elon just lacks the business acumen to realize an artsy movie with Oscar potential that makes no money is better than a movie that makes a cool billion ??? I already said at the start of the thread I get it if people just like that Musk has been successful in business, I guess as an aspirational thing? I mean nobody can't argue with that. Business is bullshit, corporatism is fucked, Musk is doing well in a broken game good for him. I somehow doubt you're out here donning your gleaming armour to also fight for Bezos' good name as a business success when someone posts a YouTube video about Amazon, though. That's the part I don't get. I also get it if it's Musk's epic political Xeets, but you didn't want to come out and say you like him for his politics either, even as you assign politics as surely the reason for anyone who dares be a detractor of his. You probably still think in the back of your head that it's where I'm coming from and won't just admit it XD But nah, I'm just a person who actually got a science education, who can sort of appreciate Musk's willingness to shoot for the moon and put some money behind it but isn't about to lionise a guy who does such cringe things as buying a social media platform so he can upweight his own posts in the algorithm. How do you defend that lmao Like, you can't even envy his money because he's so obviously, deeply unsatisfied with it. You began this thread by calling him a fraud and then you brought up Theranos as an example of another company with a high valuation built on smoke and mirrors. It’s a ridiculous way to open the thread if you’re now conceding that Musk has been incredibly successful in business. I would defend Bezo’s business acumen if it were under attack here but it’s not. Bezos isn’t a right-wing edgelord so there’s no reason for anyone to attack his business acumen. Lots of people in this thread have given the nuanced position that Musk has done very well with his companies but he’s an asshole for things he does in politics or on Twitter. I haven’t even disagreed with them. The people I’m disagreeing with are the people that watch a YouTube of a cybertruck breaking down and then make broad judgements on Tesla’s products without realizing those types of YouTubes are made just to get attraction from people like you. Top Gear did it first. My objection is that if Elon Musk was a center-left guy lefties would be praising him and the government subsidies for green tech that benefited EV sales, much like they idolized him when he was center left. Their opinion didn’t change because Teslas vehicles suddenly got worse or they decided they were fiscal conservatives who thinks the government shouldn’t throw money at EV incentives. They changed their opinion entirely because of Elon’s politics and frankly it’s obnoxious when people try to deny that. At least Magic Powers admits he is biased against Elon for his politics. This largely isn’t true for many. It’s also probably true for many as well. Even before he went on his current political turn people were saying basically the same things, it’s certainly amplified them. He could be an example of some kind of visionary who’s an exemplar of government/corporate cooperation actually pushing some industries forward. But he doesn’t present himself as that, his fanboys certainly don’t. People largely didn’t actually look into him all that much either, he was much less visible too. Hey myself and most of my cohort had a very surface level, ‘hey Tesla and especially Space X are doing some cool things, that Elon Musk guy must be pretty smart.’ Aside from just generally not liking billionaires existing on an innate level, I had no particular issue, but the more I learned the more skepticism I had versus my prior quite positive impression. For many, this occurred very much under your radar, and many moons ago. You’re only learning about it because Musk so visibly interjected himself into political spaces. Ergo you’re attributing it to being his politics. In much the same way, to a lesser degree, people would have had any kind of informed opinion or position on Donald Trump’s real estate empire if he was just that bloke off the Apprentice. Musk just wasn’t nearly as much of a popular topic of conversation outside of Space X/Tesla enthusiast circles. I’ll absolutely concede that for many it’s purely his politics and I think that’s a bit silly. But folks here have given their personal rationales, and they all differ slightly. I think a big litmus test of whether Musk is a bit of a cringe bellend or a truly gigantic cunt is what he does with this purported government position Most people have not actually owned a Tesla, indeed I’ve never been in one. A fact somewhat incongruous with its valuation but that’s by the by. I see a bunch of articles about a Cybertruck I already thought was fucking stupid, my immediate thought isn’t that these folks with these purported defects are making it up. One hypothesis is that it’s much more so ‘the car that Elon built’, rather than one he facilitated, so hence was a bit shit compared to ones he’s more hands-off on. Plausible but I don’t know how true it is
I don’t know what that means that the cybertruck is “the car that Elon built.” Elon is notoriously known as a micromanager. Even designing the original Roadster which was on a Lotus chassis with outsourced parts, Elon demanded the doors be larger, the seats be wider, the headlights be different etc.
With the Model S Tesla had employed Henrik Fisker of Fisker automotive fame to design the car. All the designs made the car look too bubbly, which was necessary to allow for enough headroom since the battery pack was in the floor unlike in the Roadster. When Fisker would t accommodate Musk’s desires on the look of the Model S Tesla cancelled his contract and then hired Frank and Musk worked with the engineers to get them to make the battery pack thinner to make the car look the way he wanted.
I don’t see how the creation of the Cybertruck is any different than any of the other cars Tesla has released but I also don’t visit sites and YouTube’s whose whole purpose is to dunk on Musk.
All the CEOs that preceded Musk were hoping to make some kind of partnership with an existing manufacturer and use outsourced parts to build the car. It was Musks vision for Tesla to control its own destiny with a top down approach and with giga factories assembling its cars.
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Northern Ireland27473 Posts
On November 09 2024 00:26 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2024 15:06 WombaT wrote:On November 08 2024 11:02 BlackJack wrote:On November 08 2024 10:30 Turbovolver wrote:On November 07 2024 18:31 BlackJack wrote:On November 07 2024 12:30 Turbovolver wrote:On November 07 2024 11:56 BlackJack wrote:
Because being the best selling EV truck in the world is clearly bad, right? Surely I’m the irrational one for thinking otherwise. 2024 Movies Tierlist, by BlackJack 1 Inside Out 2 $1,697,092,880 2 Deadpool & Wolverine $1,337,792,962 3 Despicable Me 4 $967,529,476 4 Dune: Part Two $714,444,358 5 Godzilla x Kong: The New Empire $571,750,016 6 Kung Fu Panda 4 $547,634,675 7 Beetlejuice Beetlejuice $449,011,632 8 Bad Boys: Ride or Die $404,453,960 9 Kingdom of the Planet of the Apes $397,378,150 10 Twisters $370,962,265 Elon just lacks the business acumen to realize an artsy movie with Oscar potential that makes no money is better than a movie that makes a cool billion ??? I already said at the start of the thread I get it if people just like that Musk has been successful in business, I guess as an aspirational thing? I mean nobody can't argue with that. Business is bullshit, corporatism is fucked, Musk is doing well in a broken game good for him. I somehow doubt you're out here donning your gleaming armour to also fight for Bezos' good name as a business success when someone posts a YouTube video about Amazon, though. That's the part I don't get. I also get it if it's Musk's epic political Xeets, but you didn't want to come out and say you like him for his politics either, even as you assign politics as surely the reason for anyone who dares be a detractor of his. You probably still think in the back of your head that it's where I'm coming from and won't just admit it XD But nah, I'm just a person who actually got a science education, who can sort of appreciate Musk's willingness to shoot for the moon and put some money behind it but isn't about to lionise a guy who does such cringe things as buying a social media platform so he can upweight his own posts in the algorithm. How do you defend that lmao Like, you can't even envy his money because he's so obviously, deeply unsatisfied with it. You began this thread by calling him a fraud and then you brought up Theranos as an example of another company with a high valuation built on smoke and mirrors. It’s a ridiculous way to open the thread if you’re now conceding that Musk has been incredibly successful in business. I would defend Bezo’s business acumen if it were under attack here but it’s not. Bezos isn’t a right-wing edgelord so there’s no reason for anyone to attack his business acumen. Lots of people in this thread have given the nuanced position that Musk has done very well with his companies but he’s an asshole for things he does in politics or on Twitter. I haven’t even disagreed with them. The people I’m disagreeing with are the people that watch a YouTube of a cybertruck breaking down and then make broad judgements on Tesla’s products without realizing those types of YouTubes are made just to get attraction from people like you. Top Gear did it first. My objection is that if Elon Musk was a center-left guy lefties would be praising him and the government subsidies for green tech that benefited EV sales, much like they idolized him when he was center left. Their opinion didn’t change because Teslas vehicles suddenly got worse or they decided they were fiscal conservatives who thinks the government shouldn’t throw money at EV incentives. They changed their opinion entirely because of Elon’s politics and frankly it’s obnoxious when people try to deny that. At least Magic Powers admits he is biased against Elon for his politics. This largely isn’t true for many. It’s also probably true for many as well. Even before he went on his current political turn people were saying basically the same things, it’s certainly amplified them. He could be an example of some kind of visionary who’s an exemplar of government/corporate cooperation actually pushing some industries forward. But he doesn’t present himself as that, his fanboys certainly don’t. People largely didn’t actually look into him all that much either, he was much less visible too. Hey myself and most of my cohort had a very surface level, ‘hey Tesla and especially Space X are doing some cool things, that Elon Musk guy must be pretty smart.’ Aside from just generally not liking billionaires existing on an innate level, I had no particular issue, but the more I learned the more skepticism I had versus my prior quite positive impression. For many, this occurred very much under your radar, and many moons ago. You’re only learning about it because Musk so visibly interjected himself into political spaces. Ergo you’re attributing it to being his politics. In much the same way, to a lesser degree, people would have had any kind of informed opinion or position on Donald Trump’s real estate empire if he was just that bloke off the Apprentice. Musk just wasn’t nearly as much of a popular topic of conversation outside of Space X/Tesla enthusiast circles. I’ll absolutely concede that for many it’s purely his politics and I think that’s a bit silly. But folks here have given their personal rationales, and they all differ slightly. I think a big litmus test of whether Musk is a bit of a cringe bellend or a truly gigantic cunt is what he does with this purported government position Most people have not actually owned a Tesla, indeed I’ve never been in one. A fact somewhat incongruous with its valuation but that’s by the by. I see a bunch of articles about a Cybertruck I already thought was fucking stupid, my immediate thought isn’t that these folks with these purported defects are making it up. One hypothesis is that it’s much more so ‘the car that Elon built’, rather than one he facilitated, so hence was a bit shit compared to ones he’s more hands-off on. Plausible but I don’t know how true it is I don’t know what that means that the cybertruck is “the car that Elon built.” Elon is notoriously known as a micromanager. Even designing the original Roadster which was on a Lotus chassis with outsourced parts, Elon demanded the doors be larger, the seats be wider, the headlights be different etc. With the Model S Tesla had employed Henrik Fisker of Fisker automotive fame to design the car. All the designs made the car look too bubbly, which was necessary to allow for enough headroom since the battery pack was in the floor unlike in the Roadster. When Fisker would t accommodate Musk’s desires on the look of the Model S Tesla cancelled his contract and then hired Frank and Musk worked with the engineers to get them to make the battery pack thinner to make the car look the way he wanted. I don’t see how the creation of the Cybertruck is any different than any of the other cars Tesla has released but I also don’t visit sites and YouTube’s whose whole purpose is to dunk on Musk. All the CEOs that preceded Musk were hoping to make some kind of partnership with an existing manufacturer and use outsourced parts to build the car. It was Musks vision for Tesla to control its own destiny with a top down approach and with giga factories assembling its cars.
I also don’t religiously follow Tesla and Musk, and indeed conceded as such in my post.
So, I may be wrong. Hey it happens
There’s also the possibility that previous products benefitted from Musk’s micromanaging the details, and he just didn’t do as good a job on the Cybertruck.
It seems no matter how many explanations, caveats, concessions one gives you’ll still stick to your initial position regardless.
Most people have not actually owned a Tesla, indeed I’ve never been in one. A fact somewhat incongruous with its valuation but that’s by the by. I see a bunch of articles about a Cybertruck I already thought was fucking stupid, my immediate thought isn’t that these folks with these purported defects are making it up.
One hypothesis is that it’s much more so ‘the car that Elon built’, rather than one he facilitated, so hence was a bit shit compared to ones he’s more hands-off on. Plausible but I don’t know how true it is’
There’s multiple qualifiers in there, I’m actively trying to be as fair as possible.
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On November 08 2024 21:48 Magic Powers wrote:
I'm biased against Elon Musk now, but I considered him a fraud years ago. It started with the hyperloop and the more I learned about him the more convinced I was that he was a talentless hack who rides the wave of his investments and puts his face on other people's accomplishments. The reason why I opened this thread is his politics, but me calling him a fraud has nothing to do with my political bias against him. Two things can be true at the same time, he's a fraud and he's a fascism supporter, and I opened this thread because of the latter, not the former. I wouldn't have bothered to expose him on tl.net if he hadn't attacked my country for not being facist enough.
What do you mean by talentless?
When I read that, my default is to envision that Musk is where he is by luck alone. I don't *think* people will argue that Musk keeps getting what he is after. To be a little more crass, that he keeps "winning".
To me, guy seems to get everything he wants.
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On November 09 2024 09:45 L_Master wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2024 21:48 Magic Powers wrote:
I'm biased against Elon Musk now, but I considered him a fraud years ago. It started with the hyperloop and the more I learned about him the more convinced I was that he was a talentless hack who rides the wave of his investments and puts his face on other people's accomplishments. The reason why I opened this thread is his politics, but me calling him a fraud has nothing to do with my political bias against him. Two things can be true at the same time, he's a fraud and he's a fascism supporter, and I opened this thread because of the latter, not the former. I wouldn't have bothered to expose him on tl.net if he hadn't attacked my country for not being facist enough. What do you mean by talentless? When I read that, my default is to envision that Musk is where he is by luck alone. I don't *think* people will argue that Musk keeps getting what he is after. To be a little more crass, that he keeps "winning". To me, guy seems to get everything he wants.
Yeah sure, if you wanna believe that. He's only up there because money attracts money.
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On November 09 2024 09:53 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2024 09:45 L_Master wrote:On November 08 2024 21:48 Magic Powers wrote:
I'm biased against Elon Musk now, but I considered him a fraud years ago. It started with the hyperloop and the more I learned about him the more convinced I was that he was a talentless hack who rides the wave of his investments and puts his face on other people's accomplishments. The reason why I opened this thread is his politics, but me calling him a fraud has nothing to do with my political bias against him. Two things can be true at the same time, he's a fraud and he's a fascism supporter, and I opened this thread because of the latter, not the former. I wouldn't have bothered to expose him on tl.net if he hadn't attacked my country for not being facist enough. What do you mean by talentless? When I read that, my default is to envision that Musk is where he is by luck alone. I don't *think* people will argue that Musk keeps getting what he is after. To be a little more crass, that he keeps "winning". To me, guy seems to get everything he wants. Yeah sure, if you wanna believe that. He's only up there because money attracts money.
If I want to believe that?
Do you think Musk isn't "winning" (by his own goals)?
If you don't, that's a steelman I'd love to here. I've met lots of people who hold the position that Musk is varying degree of talentless, I've heard people make the argument that Musk isn't responsible for his own success, but I haven't heard anyone make the argument that Musk isn't succeeding.
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Northern Ireland27473 Posts
On November 09 2024 09:45 L_Master wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2024 21:48 Magic Powers wrote:
I'm biased against Elon Musk now, but I considered him a fraud years ago. It started with the hyperloop and the more I learned about him the more convinced I was that he was a talentless hack who rides the wave of his investments and puts his face on other people's accomplishments. The reason why I opened this thread is his politics, but me calling him a fraud has nothing to do with my political bias against him. Two things can be true at the same time, he's a fraud and he's a fascism supporter, and I opened this thread because of the latter, not the former. I wouldn't have bothered to expose him on tl.net if he hadn't attacked my country for not being facist enough. What do you mean by talentless? When I read that, my default is to envision that Musk is where he is by luck alone. I don't *think* people will argue that Musk keeps getting what he is after. To be a little more crass, that he keeps "winning". To me, guy seems to get everything he wants.
Basically anyone who’s ever hit the stratosphere has some luck. There’s nothing innately wrong with that, but it’s basically always the case.
Space X, hey I’ll give credit where credit is due there. Fair play
PayPal was effectively a merger of two companies, and if folks had decided to just run Musk out of business when they had competing products, they probably could have. He was the junior competitor there. Doesn’t mean his business was fundamentally flawed, or his ideas, but he got a bit fortunate there. When they thought his ideas were shit for the direction of what became PayPal, they just bought him out for much moolah.
Tesla, credit where credit is due also did some innovative things, pushed things forward.
Where Musk is fortunate there is the company’s valuation and what it enables. No non-insane person will say that Tesla isn’t a valuable company. Equally no non-insane person will agree that a valuation that at one point was higher than the next 10 automotive manufacturers in the world is even remotely reasonable.
Fortune does favour the brave as they say, and I also gotta concede a certain bravery there but one also has to concede the fortune.
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On November 09 2024 10:09 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2024 09:45 L_Master wrote:On November 08 2024 21:48 Magic Powers wrote:
I'm biased against Elon Musk now, but I considered him a fraud years ago. It started with the hyperloop and the more I learned about him the more convinced I was that he was a talentless hack who rides the wave of his investments and puts his face on other people's accomplishments. The reason why I opened this thread is his politics, but me calling him a fraud has nothing to do with my political bias against him. Two things can be true at the same time, he's a fraud and he's a fascism supporter, and I opened this thread because of the latter, not the former. I wouldn't have bothered to expose him on tl.net if he hadn't attacked my country for not being facist enough. What do you mean by talentless? When I read that, my default is to envision that Musk is where he is by luck alone. I don't *think* people will argue that Musk keeps getting what he is after. To be a little more crass, that he keeps "winning". To me, guy seems to get everything he wants. Basically anyone who’s ever hit the stratosphere has some luck. There’s nothing innately wrong with that, but it’s basically always the case. Space X, hey I’ll give credit where credit is due there. Fair play PayPal was effectively a merger of two companies, and if folks had decided to just run Musk out of business when they had competing products, they probably could have. He was the junior competitor there. Doesn’t mean his business was fundamentally flawed, or his ideas, but he got a bit fortunate there. When they thought his ideas were shit for the direction of what became PayPal, they just bought him out for much moolah. Tesla, credit where credit is due also did some innovative things, pushed things forward. Where Musk is fortunate there is the company’s valuation and what it enables. No non-insane person will say that Tesla isn’t a valuable company. Equally no non-insane person will agree that a valuation that at one point was higher than the next 10 automotive manufacturers in the world is even remotely reasonable. Fortune does favour the brave as they say, and I also gotta concede a certain bravery there but one also has to concede the fortune.
Oh yes, I agree Musk is an incredibly lucky person. He started from high places, lots of luck where you describe in his business ventures.
10x valuation indeed seems insane, I’ve always seen that as value flowing to Tesla basically because of how people see Musk and the faith they place in him. Dunno, but yea seems insane that as a car company it’s valued that way.
For me it’s curiosity about talentless more than anything. If Musk has no talent, how did he get where he is? Was it all luck? Or is there another vector I don’t see?
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On November 09 2024 10:01 L_Master wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2024 09:53 Magic Powers wrote:On November 09 2024 09:45 L_Master wrote:On November 08 2024 21:48 Magic Powers wrote:
I'm biased against Elon Musk now, but I considered him a fraud years ago. It started with the hyperloop and the more I learned about him the more convinced I was that he was a talentless hack who rides the wave of his investments and puts his face on other people's accomplishments. The reason why I opened this thread is his politics, but me calling him a fraud has nothing to do with my political bias against him. Two things can be true at the same time, he's a fraud and he's a fascism supporter, and I opened this thread because of the latter, not the former. I wouldn't have bothered to expose him on tl.net if he hadn't attacked my country for not being facist enough. What do you mean by talentless? When I read that, my default is to envision that Musk is where he is by luck alone. I don't *think* people will argue that Musk keeps getting what he is after. To be a little more crass, that he keeps "winning". To me, guy seems to get everything he wants. Yeah sure, if you wanna believe that. He's only up there because money attracts money. If I want to believe that? Do you think Musk isn't "winning" (by his own goals)? If you don't, that's a steelman I'd love to here. I've met lots of people who hold the position that Musk is varying degree of talentless, I've heard people make the argument that Musk isn't responsible for his own success, but I haven't heard anyone make the argument that Musk isn't succeeding.
I didn't say Elon Musk isn't winning. Yeah, he's winning. Plenty of other historic frauds have also won. America has a convicted felon in power right now. Winning in and of itself doesn't impress me.
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On November 09 2024 10:22 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2024 10:01 L_Master wrote:On November 09 2024 09:53 Magic Powers wrote:On November 09 2024 09:45 L_Master wrote:On November 08 2024 21:48 Magic Powers wrote:
I'm biased against Elon Musk now, but I considered him a fraud years ago. It started with the hyperloop and the more I learned about him the more convinced I was that he was a talentless hack who rides the wave of his investments and puts his face on other people's accomplishments. The reason why I opened this thread is his politics, but me calling him a fraud has nothing to do with my political bias against him. Two things can be true at the same time, he's a fraud and he's a fascism supporter, and I opened this thread because of the latter, not the former. I wouldn't have bothered to expose him on tl.net if he hadn't attacked my country for not being facist enough. What do you mean by talentless? When I read that, my default is to envision that Musk is where he is by luck alone. I don't *think* people will argue that Musk keeps getting what he is after. To be a little more crass, that he keeps "winning". To me, guy seems to get everything he wants. Yeah sure, if you wanna believe that. He's only up there because money attracts money. If I want to believe that? Do you think Musk isn't "winning" (by his own goals)? If you don't, that's a steelman I'd love to here. I've met lots of people who hold the position that Musk is varying degree of talentless, I've heard people make the argument that Musk isn't responsible for his own success, but I haven't heard anyone make the argument that Musk isn't succeeding. I didn't say Elon Musk isn't winning. Yeah, he's winning. Plenty of other historic frauds have also won. America has a convicted felon in power right now. Winning in and of itself doesn't impress me.
It doesn’t impress me inherently, with ya there.
I’m trying to understand why you think he is winning, without talent. It all luck, or is there some other vector I’m blind to?
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On November 09 2024 10:25 L_Master wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2024 10:22 Magic Powers wrote:On November 09 2024 10:01 L_Master wrote:On November 09 2024 09:53 Magic Powers wrote:On November 09 2024 09:45 L_Master wrote:On November 08 2024 21:48 Magic Powers wrote:
I'm biased against Elon Musk now, but I considered him a fraud years ago. It started with the hyperloop and the more I learned about him the more convinced I was that he was a talentless hack who rides the wave of his investments and puts his face on other people's accomplishments. The reason why I opened this thread is his politics, but me calling him a fraud has nothing to do with my political bias against him. Two things can be true at the same time, he's a fraud and he's a fascism supporter, and I opened this thread because of the latter, not the former. I wouldn't have bothered to expose him on tl.net if he hadn't attacked my country for not being facist enough. What do you mean by talentless? When I read that, my default is to envision that Musk is where he is by luck alone. I don't *think* people will argue that Musk keeps getting what he is after. To be a little more crass, that he keeps "winning". To me, guy seems to get everything he wants. Yeah sure, if you wanna believe that. He's only up there because money attracts money. If I want to believe that? Do you think Musk isn't "winning" (by his own goals)? If you don't, that's a steelman I'd love to here. I've met lots of people who hold the position that Musk is varying degree of talentless, I've heard people make the argument that Musk isn't responsible for his own success, but I haven't heard anyone make the argument that Musk isn't succeeding. I didn't say Elon Musk isn't winning. Yeah, he's winning. Plenty of other historic frauds have also won. America has a convicted felon in power right now. Winning in and of itself doesn't impress me. It doesn’t impress me inherently, with ya there. I’m trying to understand why you think he is winning, without talent. It all luck, or is there some other vector I’m blind to?
You can make boatloads of money if you're willing to sell your soul, this is not a secret. Most people just aren't willing to do that. Elon Musk has done it plenty of times, that's what sets him apart.
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On November 09 2024 10:28 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2024 10:25 L_Master wrote:On November 09 2024 10:22 Magic Powers wrote:On November 09 2024 10:01 L_Master wrote:On November 09 2024 09:53 Magic Powers wrote:On November 09 2024 09:45 L_Master wrote:On November 08 2024 21:48 Magic Powers wrote:
I'm biased against Elon Musk now, but I considered him a fraud years ago. It started with the hyperloop and the more I learned about him the more convinced I was that he was a talentless hack who rides the wave of his investments and puts his face on other people's accomplishments. The reason why I opened this thread is his politics, but me calling him a fraud has nothing to do with my political bias against him. Two things can be true at the same time, he's a fraud and he's a fascism supporter, and I opened this thread because of the latter, not the former. I wouldn't have bothered to expose him on tl.net if he hadn't attacked my country for not being facist enough. What do you mean by talentless? When I read that, my default is to envision that Musk is where he is by luck alone. I don't *think* people will argue that Musk keeps getting what he is after. To be a little more crass, that he keeps "winning". To me, guy seems to get everything he wants. Yeah sure, if you wanna believe that. He's only up there because money attracts money. If I want to believe that? Do you think Musk isn't "winning" (by his own goals)? If you don't, that's a steelman I'd love to here. I've met lots of people who hold the position that Musk is varying degree of talentless, I've heard people make the argument that Musk isn't responsible for his own success, but I haven't heard anyone make the argument that Musk isn't succeeding. I didn't say Elon Musk isn't winning. Yeah, he's winning. Plenty of other historic frauds have also won. America has a convicted felon in power right now. Winning in and of itself doesn't impress me. It doesn’t impress me inherently, with ya there. I’m trying to understand why you think he is winning, without talent. It all luck, or is there some other vector I’m blind to? You can make boatloads of money if you're willing to sell your soul, this is not a secret. Most people just aren't willing to do that. Elon Musk has done it plenty of times, that's what sets him apart.
But lots of people sell their soul and make nothing, no?
I can consider that being willing to sell your soul might give you an advantage.
But how? Who do you sell it to? Or do you mean using unethical behaviors? Even then, lots of people are unethical and don’t win. More unethical failures than unethical winners.
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On November 09 2024 10:36 L_Master wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2024 10:28 Magic Powers wrote:On November 09 2024 10:25 L_Master wrote:On November 09 2024 10:22 Magic Powers wrote:On November 09 2024 10:01 L_Master wrote:On November 09 2024 09:53 Magic Powers wrote:On November 09 2024 09:45 L_Master wrote:On November 08 2024 21:48 Magic Powers wrote:
I'm biased against Elon Musk now, but I considered him a fraud years ago. It started with the hyperloop and the more I learned about him the more convinced I was that he was a talentless hack who rides the wave of his investments and puts his face on other people's accomplishments. The reason why I opened this thread is his politics, but me calling him a fraud has nothing to do with my political bias against him. Two things can be true at the same time, he's a fraud and he's a fascism supporter, and I opened this thread because of the latter, not the former. I wouldn't have bothered to expose him on tl.net if he hadn't attacked my country for not being facist enough. What do you mean by talentless? When I read that, my default is to envision that Musk is where he is by luck alone. I don't *think* people will argue that Musk keeps getting what he is after. To be a little more crass, that he keeps "winning". To me, guy seems to get everything he wants. Yeah sure, if you wanna believe that. He's only up there because money attracts money. If I want to believe that? Do you think Musk isn't "winning" (by his own goals)? If you don't, that's a steelman I'd love to here. I've met lots of people who hold the position that Musk is varying degree of talentless, I've heard people make the argument that Musk isn't responsible for his own success, but I haven't heard anyone make the argument that Musk isn't succeeding. I didn't say Elon Musk isn't winning. Yeah, he's winning. Plenty of other historic frauds have also won. America has a convicted felon in power right now. Winning in and of itself doesn't impress me. It doesn’t impress me inherently, with ya there. I’m trying to understand why you think he is winning, without talent. It all luck, or is there some other vector I’m blind to? You can make boatloads of money if you're willing to sell your soul, this is not a secret. Most people just aren't willing to do that. Elon Musk has done it plenty of times, that's what sets him apart. But lots of people sell their soul and make nothing, no? I can consider that being willing to sell your soul might give you an advantage. But how? Who do you sell it to? Or do you mean using unethical behaviors? Even then, lots of people are unethical and don’t win. More unethical failures than unethical winners.
Elon Musk was an early investor of Tesla. The founders committed the grave offense of not naming him as a relevant part of the company (because he really wasn't). He was so mad at them that he pushed them out of the company, paid them off outside of court (they're not allowed to talk about the details) and then he made himself the face of Tesla.
People wouldn't even associate his name with Tesla if he hadn't been such an asshole.
Just one of many examples.
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Northern Ireland27473 Posts
On November 09 2024 10:25 L_Master wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2024 10:22 Magic Powers wrote:On November 09 2024 10:01 L_Master wrote:On November 09 2024 09:53 Magic Powers wrote:On November 09 2024 09:45 L_Master wrote:On November 08 2024 21:48 Magic Powers wrote:
I'm biased against Elon Musk now, but I considered him a fraud years ago. It started with the hyperloop and the more I learned about him the more convinced I was that he was a talentless hack who rides the wave of his investments and puts his face on other people's accomplishments. The reason why I opened this thread is his politics, but me calling him a fraud has nothing to do with my political bias against him. Two things can be true at the same time, he's a fraud and he's a fascism supporter, and I opened this thread because of the latter, not the former. I wouldn't have bothered to expose him on tl.net if he hadn't attacked my country for not being facist enough. What do you mean by talentless? When I read that, my default is to envision that Musk is where he is by luck alone. I don't *think* people will argue that Musk keeps getting what he is after. To be a little more crass, that he keeps "winning". To me, guy seems to get everything he wants. Yeah sure, if you wanna believe that. He's only up there because money attracts money. If I want to believe that? Do you think Musk isn't "winning" (by his own goals)? If you don't, that's a steelman I'd love to here. I've met lots of people who hold the position that Musk is varying degree of talentless, I've heard people make the argument that Musk isn't responsible for his own success, but I haven't heard anyone make the argument that Musk isn't succeeding. I didn't say Elon Musk isn't winning. Yeah, he's winning. Plenty of other historic frauds have also won. America has a convicted felon in power right now. Winning in and of itself doesn't impress me. It doesn’t impress me inherently, with ya there. I’m trying to understand why you think he is winning, without talent. It all luck, or is there some other vector I’m blind to?
He has some talent, but it’s as an ideas guy and a hype man as much as anything else. Most of his wealth is built on some bloody talented folks doing their thing.
Nothing wrong with that inherently, he didn’t do these thing himself. He’s the richest man in the world while his engineers in various companies are merely decently wealthy.
I mean opinions are rather split, Mark Zuckerberg did legitimately make Facebook himself. Jeff Bezos’ Amazon empire expanded hugely due to expertise he didn’t personally have, but initially he did get that off the ground.
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On November 09 2024 10:41 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2024 10:36 L_Master wrote:On November 09 2024 10:28 Magic Powers wrote:On November 09 2024 10:25 L_Master wrote:On November 09 2024 10:22 Magic Powers wrote:On November 09 2024 10:01 L_Master wrote:On November 09 2024 09:53 Magic Powers wrote:On November 09 2024 09:45 L_Master wrote:On November 08 2024 21:48 Magic Powers wrote:
I'm biased against Elon Musk now, but I considered him a fraud years ago. It started with the hyperloop and the more I learned about him the more convinced I was that he was a talentless hack who rides the wave of his investments and puts his face on other people's accomplishments. The reason why I opened this thread is his politics, but me calling him a fraud has nothing to do with my political bias against him. Two things can be true at the same time, he's a fraud and he's a fascism supporter, and I opened this thread because of the latter, not the former. I wouldn't have bothered to expose him on tl.net if he hadn't attacked my country for not being facist enough. What do you mean by talentless? When I read that, my default is to envision that Musk is where he is by luck alone. I don't *think* people will argue that Musk keeps getting what he is after. To be a little more crass, that he keeps "winning". To me, guy seems to get everything he wants. Yeah sure, if you wanna believe that. He's only up there because money attracts money. If I want to believe that? Do you think Musk isn't "winning" (by his own goals)? If you don't, that's a steelman I'd love to here. I've met lots of people who hold the position that Musk is varying degree of talentless, I've heard people make the argument that Musk isn't responsible for his own success, but I haven't heard anyone make the argument that Musk isn't succeeding. I didn't say Elon Musk isn't winning. Yeah, he's winning. Plenty of other historic frauds have also won. America has a convicted felon in power right now. Winning in and of itself doesn't impress me. It doesn’t impress me inherently, with ya there. I’m trying to understand why you think he is winning, without talent. It all luck, or is there some other vector I’m blind to? You can make boatloads of money if you're willing to sell your soul, this is not a secret. Most people just aren't willing to do that. Elon Musk has done it plenty of times, that's what sets him apart. But lots of people sell their soul and make nothing, no? I can consider that being willing to sell your soul might give you an advantage. But how? Who do you sell it to? Or do you mean using unethical behaviors? Even then, lots of people are unethical and don’t win. More unethical failures than unethical winners. Elon Musk was an early investor of Tesla. The founders committed the grave offense of not naming him as a relevant part of the company (because he really wasn't). He was so mad at them that he pushed them out of the company, paid them off outside of court (they're not allowed to talk about the details) and then he made himself the face of Tesla. People wouldn't even associate his name with Tesla if he hadn't been such an asshole. Just one of many examples.
Step 1: take over as CEO of a struggling startup before they have sold their first car
Step 2: trillion dollar valuation
It’s so simple
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On November 09 2024 11:00 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2024 10:41 Magic Powers wrote:On November 09 2024 10:36 L_Master wrote:On November 09 2024 10:28 Magic Powers wrote:On November 09 2024 10:25 L_Master wrote:On November 09 2024 10:22 Magic Powers wrote:On November 09 2024 10:01 L_Master wrote:On November 09 2024 09:53 Magic Powers wrote:On November 09 2024 09:45 L_Master wrote:On November 08 2024 21:48 Magic Powers wrote:
I'm biased against Elon Musk now, but I considered him a fraud years ago. It started with the hyperloop and the more I learned about him the more convinced I was that he was a talentless hack who rides the wave of his investments and puts his face on other people's accomplishments. The reason why I opened this thread is his politics, but me calling him a fraud has nothing to do with my political bias against him. Two things can be true at the same time, he's a fraud and he's a fascism supporter, and I opened this thread because of the latter, not the former. I wouldn't have bothered to expose him on tl.net if he hadn't attacked my country for not being facist enough. What do you mean by talentless? When I read that, my default is to envision that Musk is where he is by luck alone. I don't *think* people will argue that Musk keeps getting what he is after. To be a little more crass, that he keeps "winning". To me, guy seems to get everything he wants. Yeah sure, if you wanna believe that. He's only up there because money attracts money. If I want to believe that? Do you think Musk isn't "winning" (by his own goals)? If you don't, that's a steelman I'd love to here. I've met lots of people who hold the position that Musk is varying degree of talentless, I've heard people make the argument that Musk isn't responsible for his own success, but I haven't heard anyone make the argument that Musk isn't succeeding. I didn't say Elon Musk isn't winning. Yeah, he's winning. Plenty of other historic frauds have also won. America has a convicted felon in power right now. Winning in and of itself doesn't impress me. It doesn’t impress me inherently, with ya there. I’m trying to understand why you think he is winning, without talent. It all luck, or is there some other vector I’m blind to? You can make boatloads of money if you're willing to sell your soul, this is not a secret. Most people just aren't willing to do that. Elon Musk has done it plenty of times, that's what sets him apart. But lots of people sell their soul and make nothing, no? I can consider that being willing to sell your soul might give you an advantage. But how? Who do you sell it to? Or do you mean using unethical behaviors? Even then, lots of people are unethical and don’t win. More unethical failures than unethical winners. Elon Musk was an early investor of Tesla. The founders committed the grave offense of not naming him as a relevant part of the company (because he really wasn't). He was so mad at them that he pushed them out of the company, paid them off outside of court (they're not allowed to talk about the details) and then he made himself the face of Tesla. People wouldn't even associate his name with Tesla if he hadn't been such an asshole. Just one of many examples. Step 1: take over as CEO of a struggling startup before they have sold their first car Step 2: trillion dollar valuation It’s so simple
Elon Musk contributed nothing to Tesla's success. He's only an investor.
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Northern Ireland27473 Posts
On November 09 2024 11:00 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2024 10:41 Magic Powers wrote:On November 09 2024 10:36 L_Master wrote:On November 09 2024 10:28 Magic Powers wrote:On November 09 2024 10:25 L_Master wrote:On November 09 2024 10:22 Magic Powers wrote:On November 09 2024 10:01 L_Master wrote:On November 09 2024 09:53 Magic Powers wrote:On November 09 2024 09:45 L_Master wrote:On November 08 2024 21:48 Magic Powers wrote:
I'm biased against Elon Musk now, but I considered him a fraud years ago. It started with the hyperloop and the more I learned about him the more convinced I was that he was a talentless hack who rides the wave of his investments and puts his face on other people's accomplishments. The reason why I opened this thread is his politics, but me calling him a fraud has nothing to do with my political bias against him. Two things can be true at the same time, he's a fraud and he's a fascism supporter, and I opened this thread because of the latter, not the former. I wouldn't have bothered to expose him on tl.net if he hadn't attacked my country for not being facist enough. What do you mean by talentless? When I read that, my default is to envision that Musk is where he is by luck alone. I don't *think* people will argue that Musk keeps getting what he is after. To be a little more crass, that he keeps "winning". To me, guy seems to get everything he wants. Yeah sure, if you wanna believe that. He's only up there because money attracts money. If I want to believe that? Do you think Musk isn't "winning" (by his own goals)? If you don't, that's a steelman I'd love to here. I've met lots of people who hold the position that Musk is varying degree of talentless, I've heard people make the argument that Musk isn't responsible for his own success, but I haven't heard anyone make the argument that Musk isn't succeeding. I didn't say Elon Musk isn't winning. Yeah, he's winning. Plenty of other historic frauds have also won. America has a convicted felon in power right now. Winning in and of itself doesn't impress me. It doesn’t impress me inherently, with ya there. I’m trying to understand why you think he is winning, without talent. It all luck, or is there some other vector I’m blind to? You can make boatloads of money if you're willing to sell your soul, this is not a secret. Most people just aren't willing to do that. Elon Musk has done it plenty of times, that's what sets him apart. But lots of people sell their soul and make nothing, no? I can consider that being willing to sell your soul might give you an advantage. But how? Who do you sell it to? Or do you mean using unethical behaviors? Even then, lots of people are unethical and don’t win. More unethical failures than unethical winners. Elon Musk was an early investor of Tesla. The founders committed the grave offense of not naming him as a relevant part of the company (because he really wasn't). He was so mad at them that he pushed them out of the company, paid them off outside of court (they're not allowed to talk about the details) and then he made himself the face of Tesla. People wouldn't even associate his name with Tesla if he hadn't been such an asshole. Just one of many examples. Step 1: take over as CEO of a struggling startup before they have sold their first car Step 2: trillion dollar valuation It’s so simple
Step 1: Do some laudible work
Step 2: Have one of the most ridiculous company valuations this side of the Dotcom boom
You have too much faith in the stock market man. It’s as much hope, expectation and perception as actual commercial reality.
Apple’s took a dump when Steve Jobs departed despite Tim Cook actually running the shop way before that
If Tesla had tech that was absolutely unique and not replicable due to patent law and had some monopoly that’s one thing.
They don’t, and historic automobile manufacturers (who incidentally sell a fuckload more cars) can just build their own electric vehicles.
Couldn’t be fucked sourcing numbers so went Chat GPT, for all its flaws. Haven’t checked the working.
This data underscores the scale of legacy automakers and highlights the fast growth of Tesla and BYD in EV markets, reshaping the competitive landscape.In 2023, global car manufacturers have a significant revenue spread. Here’s how Tesla compares to the largest automakers:
1. Toyota led the industry with around $285 billion in revenue, largely driven by its comprehensive lineup, including hybrid and electric vehicles.
2. Volkswagen Group followed, earning about $280 billion. Its vast portfolio, including Audi, Porsche, and Skoda, and focus on EVs through brands like ID., helped boost revenues.
3. Mercedes-Benz came in third with roughly $155 billion, thanks to strong demand for luxury vehicles and EVs, especially in Europe and China.
4. Ford and Stellantis earned around $160 billion and $150 billion, respectively, driven by diverse brands and growing EV investments.
5. BMW generated approximately $147 billion, benefiting from its premium electric and hybrid models.
6. General Motors (GM), with a revenue of about $130 billion, saw strong performance in North America and is expanding in EVs with its Ultium platform.
7. Honda reported $120 billion, with strong sales across motorcycles and vehicles, particularly in Asia.
8. Hyundai and BYD each made about $110 billion, with BYD becoming a top EV player, especially in China.
Tesla, by comparison, generated $100 billion in 2023, emphasizing rapid growth in the EV sector, though still behind traditional giants.
Tesla could perhaps, maybe be valued higher on potential. Maybe marginally the top one. Being generous
To have a market valuation that exceeds multiple companies that all exceed its revenue is fucking bollocks. It’s a complete joke.
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Northern Ireland27473 Posts
On November 09 2024 11:08 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2024 11:00 BlackJack wrote:On November 09 2024 10:41 Magic Powers wrote:On November 09 2024 10:36 L_Master wrote:On November 09 2024 10:28 Magic Powers wrote:On November 09 2024 10:25 L_Master wrote:On November 09 2024 10:22 Magic Powers wrote:On November 09 2024 10:01 L_Master wrote:On November 09 2024 09:53 Magic Powers wrote:On November 09 2024 09:45 L_Master wrote:
[quote]
What do you mean by talentless?
When I read that, my default is to envision that Musk is where he is by luck alone. I don't *think* people will argue that Musk keeps getting what he is after. To be a little more crass, that he keeps "winning".
To me, guy seems to get everything he wants. Yeah sure, if you wanna believe that. He's only up there because money attracts money. If I want to believe that? Do you think Musk isn't "winning" (by his own goals)? If you don't, that's a steelman I'd love to here. I've met lots of people who hold the position that Musk is varying degree of talentless, I've heard people make the argument that Musk isn't responsible for his own success, but I haven't heard anyone make the argument that Musk isn't succeeding. I didn't say Elon Musk isn't winning. Yeah, he's winning. Plenty of other historic frauds have also won. America has a convicted felon in power right now. Winning in and of itself doesn't impress me. It doesn’t impress me inherently, with ya there. I’m trying to understand why you think he is winning, without talent. It all luck, or is there some other vector I’m blind to? You can make boatloads of money if you're willing to sell your soul, this is not a secret. Most people just aren't willing to do that. Elon Musk has done it plenty of times, that's what sets him apart. But lots of people sell their soul and make nothing, no? I can consider that being willing to sell your soul might give you an advantage. But how? Who do you sell it to? Or do you mean using unethical behaviors? Even then, lots of people are unethical and don’t win. More unethical failures than unethical winners. Elon Musk was an early investor of Tesla. The founders committed the grave offense of not naming him as a relevant part of the company (because he really wasn't). He was so mad at them that he pushed them out of the company, paid them off outside of court (they're not allowed to talk about the details) and then he made himself the face of Tesla. People wouldn't even associate his name with Tesla if he hadn't been such an asshole. Just one of many examples. Step 1: take over as CEO of a struggling startup before they have sold their first car Step 2: trillion dollar valuation It’s so simple Elon Musk contributed nothing to Tesla's success. He's only an investor.
Blackjack is quite fond of the classic old ‘independent evidence-based thinker, not ever conceding a point’ 1-2 punch. Good fucking luck
I’m sure he’s done it a few times, I just can’t recall it. I mean GH doesn’t but GH is an open ideological zealot. I happen to agree with that ideology myself but I’d say he’s not great on conceding certain counterpoints. Not to pick on GH at all, I do somewhat respect the conviction
It’s just ‘enlightened centrism’ in a nutshell
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On November 09 2024 11:08 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2024 11:00 BlackJack wrote:On November 09 2024 10:41 Magic Powers wrote:On November 09 2024 10:36 L_Master wrote:On November 09 2024 10:28 Magic Powers wrote:On November 09 2024 10:25 L_Master wrote:On November 09 2024 10:22 Magic Powers wrote:On November 09 2024 10:01 L_Master wrote:On November 09 2024 09:53 Magic Powers wrote:On November 09 2024 09:45 L_Master wrote:
[quote]
What do you mean by talentless?
When I read that, my default is to envision that Musk is where he is by luck alone. I don't *think* people will argue that Musk keeps getting what he is after. To be a little more crass, that he keeps "winning".
To me, guy seems to get everything he wants. Yeah sure, if you wanna believe that. He's only up there because money attracts money. If I want to believe that? Do you think Musk isn't "winning" (by his own goals)? If you don't, that's a steelman I'd love to here. I've met lots of people who hold the position that Musk is varying degree of talentless, I've heard people make the argument that Musk isn't responsible for his own success, but I haven't heard anyone make the argument that Musk isn't succeeding. I didn't say Elon Musk isn't winning. Yeah, he's winning. Plenty of other historic frauds have also won. America has a convicted felon in power right now. Winning in and of itself doesn't impress me. It doesn’t impress me inherently, with ya there. I’m trying to understand why you think he is winning, without talent. It all luck, or is there some other vector I’m blind to? You can make boatloads of money if you're willing to sell your soul, this is not a secret. Most people just aren't willing to do that. Elon Musk has done it plenty of times, that's what sets him apart. But lots of people sell their soul and make nothing, no? I can consider that being willing to sell your soul might give you an advantage. But how? Who do you sell it to? Or do you mean using unethical behaviors? Even then, lots of people are unethical and don’t win. More unethical failures than unethical winners. Elon Musk was an early investor of Tesla. The founders committed the grave offense of not naming him as a relevant part of the company (because he really wasn't). He was so mad at them that he pushed them out of the company, paid them off outside of court (they're not allowed to talk about the details) and then he made himself the face of Tesla. People wouldn't even associate his name with Tesla if he hadn't been such an asshole. Just one of many examples. Step 1: take over as CEO of a struggling startup before they have sold their first car Step 2: trillion dollar valuation It’s so simple Elon Musk contributed nothing to Tesla's success. He's only an investor.
LOL Jesus Christ
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On November 09 2024 11:22 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2024 11:08 Magic Powers wrote:On November 09 2024 11:00 BlackJack wrote:On November 09 2024 10:41 Magic Powers wrote:On November 09 2024 10:36 L_Master wrote:On November 09 2024 10:28 Magic Powers wrote:On November 09 2024 10:25 L_Master wrote:On November 09 2024 10:22 Magic Powers wrote:On November 09 2024 10:01 L_Master wrote:On November 09 2024 09:53 Magic Powers wrote:
[quote]
Yeah sure, if you wanna believe that. He's only up there because money attracts money. If I want to believe that? Do you think Musk isn't "winning" (by his own goals)? If you don't, that's a steelman I'd love to here. I've met lots of people who hold the position that Musk is varying degree of talentless, I've heard people make the argument that Musk isn't responsible for his own success, but I haven't heard anyone make the argument that Musk isn't succeeding. I didn't say Elon Musk isn't winning. Yeah, he's winning. Plenty of other historic frauds have also won. America has a convicted felon in power right now. Winning in and of itself doesn't impress me. It doesn’t impress me inherently, with ya there. I’m trying to understand why you think he is winning, without talent. It all luck, or is there some other vector I’m blind to? You can make boatloads of money if you're willing to sell your soul, this is not a secret. Most people just aren't willing to do that. Elon Musk has done it plenty of times, that's what sets him apart. But lots of people sell their soul and make nothing, no? I can consider that being willing to sell your soul might give you an advantage. But how? Who do you sell it to? Or do you mean using unethical behaviors? Even then, lots of people are unethical and don’t win. More unethical failures than unethical winners. Elon Musk was an early investor of Tesla. The founders committed the grave offense of not naming him as a relevant part of the company (because he really wasn't). He was so mad at them that he pushed them out of the company, paid them off outside of court (they're not allowed to talk about the details) and then he made himself the face of Tesla. People wouldn't even associate his name with Tesla if he hadn't been such an asshole. Just one of many examples. Step 1: take over as CEO of a struggling startup before they have sold their first car Step 2: trillion dollar valuation It’s so simple Elon Musk contributed nothing to Tesla's success. He's only an investor. Blackjack is quite fond of the classic old ‘independent evidence-based thinker, not ever conceding a point’ 1-2 punch. Good fucking luck
Yeah I'm aware, BJ has done this during his whole stay in the thread. Nothing substantive to prove that Elon Musk was ever more than a halfway capable coder at some point. Even that is up for debate, but I'm willing to give him that.
Outside of that he's an investor, a CEO, the face of a few companies.
And hey, I'm willing to give him that, too. He's quite capable at making boatloads of money. That requires a certain drive and elbow mentality that not many people have.
All I'm doing is busting the myth of the genius visionary Elon Musk who loves humankind and does no wrong. He's, uh... yeah, very far removed from that.
CEOs are not our friends, they work for their own interests. And Elon Musk is very certainly not our friend, he's literally our enemy.
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On November 09 2024 11:29 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2024 11:08 Magic Powers wrote:On November 09 2024 11:00 BlackJack wrote:On November 09 2024 10:41 Magic Powers wrote:On November 09 2024 10:36 L_Master wrote:On November 09 2024 10:28 Magic Powers wrote:On November 09 2024 10:25 L_Master wrote:On November 09 2024 10:22 Magic Powers wrote:On November 09 2024 10:01 L_Master wrote:On November 09 2024 09:53 Magic Powers wrote:
[quote]
Yeah sure, if you wanna believe that. He's only up there because money attracts money. If I want to believe that? Do you think Musk isn't "winning" (by his own goals)? If you don't, that's a steelman I'd love to here. I've met lots of people who hold the position that Musk is varying degree of talentless, I've heard people make the argument that Musk isn't responsible for his own success, but I haven't heard anyone make the argument that Musk isn't succeeding. I didn't say Elon Musk isn't winning. Yeah, he's winning. Plenty of other historic frauds have also won. America has a convicted felon in power right now. Winning in and of itself doesn't impress me. It doesn’t impress me inherently, with ya there. I’m trying to understand why you think he is winning, without talent. It all luck, or is there some other vector I’m blind to? You can make boatloads of money if you're willing to sell your soul, this is not a secret. Most people just aren't willing to do that. Elon Musk has done it plenty of times, that's what sets him apart. But lots of people sell their soul and make nothing, no? I can consider that being willing to sell your soul might give you an advantage. But how? Who do you sell it to? Or do you mean using unethical behaviors? Even then, lots of people are unethical and don’t win. More unethical failures than unethical winners. Elon Musk was an early investor of Tesla. The founders committed the grave offense of not naming him as a relevant part of the company (because he really wasn't). He was so mad at them that he pushed them out of the company, paid them off outside of court (they're not allowed to talk about the details) and then he made himself the face of Tesla. People wouldn't even associate his name with Tesla if he hadn't been such an asshole. Just one of many examples. Step 1: take over as CEO of a struggling startup before they have sold their first car Step 2: trillion dollar valuation It’s so simple Elon Musk contributed nothing to Tesla's success. He's only an investor. LOL Jesus Christ
What, give me a hundred million and I can invest, too. Problem?
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EPT
