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On November 05 2024 23:40 hexhaven wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2024 23:29 BlackJack wrote:Remember when the federal government bailed out GM for $50 billion? Or Chrysler for $17 billion? Anything Tesla received would have been peanuts compared to that. One of the most prominent subsidies Tesla has ever gotten was a $465 million Advanced Technology Vehicles Manufacturing (ATVM) loan. A couple of legacy automakers (Ford and Nissan) got loans, and a couple of EV startups (Tesla and Fisker Automotive) got loans.
Ford has never repaid its loan. Nissan repaid its loan in 2017. Tesla repaid its loan in 2013, 9 years early. Fisker defaulted and went bankrupt.
Ford’s loan was for $5.937 billion. Nissan’s was $1.448 billion. Tesla’s was $0.465 billion. Fisker’s was $0.529 billion. You can see the divide in the thread from the people that get their information from www.elonmusksucks.com and people who don’t. Calling Tesla full of grift for getting taxpayer benefits when they are a fraction of what the other automakers have received makes zero sense. They are also likely the same people that would have praised Obama for multi billion dollar bailouts of the auto industry. None of it makes sense because it’s just incoherent muttering of people triggered by Musk becoming a Trumper. I checked that site for information on Elon Musk, and turns out there isn't any.
When I say that BJ doesn't read his own posts, I'm not telling any lies. BJ wants to tell you what tesla got was a fraction of what other car makers got yet won't even put the effort into figuring out if that's true or not. He doesn't put the effort of learning what co2 credits are or what subsides tesla got on each electric vehicle it sold was. He doesn't respect himself into making a good argument why would he give you any better? He reads the first bit of information that agrees with him and declares it enough to win any argument against his world view.
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Northern Ireland27305 Posts
On November 05 2024 23:29 BlackJack wrote:Remember when the federal government bailed out GM for $50 billion? Or Chrysler for $17 billion? Anything Tesla received would have been peanuts compared to that. Show nested quote + One of the most prominent subsidies Tesla has ever gotten was a $465 million Advanced Technology Vehicles Manufacturing (ATVM) loan. A couple of legacy automakers (Ford and Nissan) got loans, and a couple of EV startups (Tesla and Fisker Automotive) got loans.
Ford has never repaid its loan. Nissan repaid its loan in 2017. Tesla repaid its loan in 2013, 9 years early. Fisker defaulted and went bankrupt.
Ford’s loan was for $5.937 billion. Nissan’s was $1.448 billion. Tesla’s was $0.465 billion. Fisker’s was $0.529 billion. You can see the divide in the thread from the people that get their information from www.elonmusksucks.com and people who don’t. Calling Tesla full of grift for getting taxpayer benefits when they are a fraction of what the other automakers have received makes zero sense. They are also likely the same people that would have praised Obama for multi billion dollar bailouts of the auto industry. None of it makes sense because it’s just incoherent muttering of people triggered by Musk becoming a Trumper.
It doesn’t have to be a grift.
Space X’s success doesn’t exist without its government funding. Equally, Space X’s innovation’s don’t exist without Space X’s talent, which Musk had a big part in assembling and driving. These things can be symbiotic.
Musk stans, or anti-stans seem to be unwilling to meet in that middle.
Incidentally much of the realistic future competition in the electric vehicle market is coming from Europe and Japan, so US automobile bailouts are kinda by the by.
As Serm kindly reminded me… ’but it doesn't justify tesla being worth more than the rest of the automotive sector combined’
Iirc it’s not the entire sector but at one point was like, more than the next 10, or something like that.
Which is fucking absurd, I don’t actually blame Musk for this at all, it’s financial market idiocy. Nonetheless his huge personal wealth and what he can do with it came from these absurd valuations.
Tesla had nothing really ringfenced that much, much larger competition couldn’t pivot to, if they wanted. If they’d nothing the wider automotive industry could legally copy, maybe that valuation makes sense but they just don’t.
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On November 06 2024 00:34 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2024 23:40 hexhaven wrote:On November 05 2024 23:29 BlackJack wrote:Remember when the federal government bailed out GM for $50 billion? Or Chrysler for $17 billion? Anything Tesla received would have been peanuts compared to that. One of the most prominent subsidies Tesla has ever gotten was a $465 million Advanced Technology Vehicles Manufacturing (ATVM) loan. A couple of legacy automakers (Ford and Nissan) got loans, and a couple of EV startups (Tesla and Fisker Automotive) got loans.
Ford has never repaid its loan. Nissan repaid its loan in 2017. Tesla repaid its loan in 2013, 9 years early. Fisker defaulted and went bankrupt.
Ford’s loan was for $5.937 billion. Nissan’s was $1.448 billion. Tesla’s was $0.465 billion. Fisker’s was $0.529 billion. You can see the divide in the thread from the people that get their information from www.elonmusksucks.com and people who don’t. Calling Tesla full of grift for getting taxpayer benefits when they are a fraction of what the other automakers have received makes zero sense. They are also likely the same people that would have praised Obama for multi billion dollar bailouts of the auto industry. None of it makes sense because it’s just incoherent muttering of people triggered by Musk becoming a Trumper. I checked that site for information on Elon Musk, and turns out there isn't any. When I say that BJ doesn't read his own posts, I'm not telling any lies. BJ wants to tell you what tesla got was a fraction of what other car makers got yet won't even put the effort into figuring out if that's true or not. He doesn't put the effort of learning what co2 credits are or what subsides tesla got on each electric vehicle it sold was. He doesn't respect himself into making a good argument why would he give you any better? He reads the first bit of information that agrees with him and declares it enough to win any argument against his world view.
Hey bud you’re the one that made the claim so you’re the one that’s supposed to bring the evidence. Show us how Tesla was uniquely sucking at the governments teat compared to other automakers, especially in light of multi billion bailouts for other automakers.
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On November 05 2024 22:46 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2024 22:27 Sermokala wrote:On November 05 2024 22:18 Geiko wrote:
Since there are some Musk supporters here, can I ask what you guys think of the ongoing trial regarding the 1M$/day sweepstake/lottery he set up in swing states ? I posted an article a few pages back but it turns out the entire thing was a scam for the propaganda, they pre chose the winners, it can't be a lottery if no one had a chance to win it. But I haven’t seen any musk supporters addressing this. I would like to know if they feel that this another example of Musk’s intelligence in managing to cleverly go around laws meant to prevent vote buying ? If they feel it’s ok to lie to voters if it’s for the greater good of getting people to sign up to vote ? For the record I am very much against Trump but I’m honestly interested in understanding how people from the other side rationalize these things.
It was not a good idea, and clearly Elon’s lawyers got the better of him and the promo got cancelled.
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On November 06 2024 13:01 gobbledydook wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2024 22:46 Geiko wrote:On November 05 2024 22:27 Sermokala wrote:On November 05 2024 22:18 Geiko wrote:
Since there are some Musk supporters here, can I ask what you guys think of the ongoing trial regarding the 1M$/day sweepstake/lottery he set up in swing states ? I posted an article a few pages back but it turns out the entire thing was a scam for the propaganda, they pre chose the winners, it can't be a lottery if no one had a chance to win it. But I haven’t seen any musk supporters addressing this. I would like to know if they feel that this another example of Musk’s intelligence in managing to cleverly go around laws meant to prevent vote buying ? If they feel it’s ok to lie to voters if it’s for the greater good of getting people to sign up to vote ? For the record I am very much against Trump but I’m honestly interested in understanding how people from the other side rationalize these things. It was not a good idea, and clearly Elon’s lawyers got the better of him and the promo got cancelled.
The million dollar thing? No it didn't? It was ruled by a judge that it could proceed.
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On November 05 2024 22:46 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2024 22:27 Sermokala wrote:On November 05 2024 22:18 Geiko wrote:
Since there are some Musk supporters here, can I ask what you guys think of the ongoing trial regarding the 1M$/day sweepstake/lottery he set up in swing states ? I posted an article a few pages back but it turns out the entire thing was a scam for the propaganda, they pre chose the winners, it can't be a lottery if no one had a chance to win it. But I haven’t seen any musk supporters addressing this. I would like to know if they feel that this another example of Musk’s intelligence in managing to cleverly go around laws meant to prevent vote buying ? If they feel it’s ok to lie to voters if it’s for the greater good of getting people to sign up to vote ? For the record I am very much against Trump but I’m honestly interested in understanding how people from the other side rationalize these things.
It may have been Musk's idea (it does fit his worldview) but I'm 99,9% sure other people did the legwork and legal on this.
"Here is a bunch of money. I want to buy votes! Make it happen. Try to bend where possible, break where not"
I mean what do you think? That he does this himself? Don't be ridiculous
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During the giant Trump Election Celebration I was really hoping for Musk to promise us a manned moon landing. But, it didn't happen. sigh. His "Occupy Mars" t-shirts are epic.
"It looks so fake and that's how you know its real", Elon Musk, February 6, 2018. 
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On November 04 2024 20:57 BlackJack wrote:
Honestly what are you going to say to someone that thinks Musk’s companies are shit when they’ve made a car that goes 0-60 in under 2 seconds and they’ve made rockets that land vertically and get caught out of the sky. “BuT WhErE aRe ThE RobOTaXIs?!”
I'm still wondering what it is about this Musk guy that can reach into the brain of someone who seems to pride themselves on being rational and detached, someone who throws down in the political threads not to advance specific politics but more to point out hypocrisies and flaws in logic of others, and get them to promptly regress to logic like "cybertrucks are popular so they must be good", and even start busting out some cringey tWiTtEr CaPs.
Guess I need to read that book!
EDIT: I appreciated your posts, Husyelt. I thought your perspective as an ex-fan who could see both the pros and the cons was pretty agreeable.
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Northern Ireland27305 Posts
On November 07 2024 10:48 Turbovolver wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2024 20:57 BlackJack wrote:
Honestly what are you going to say to someone that thinks Musk’s companies are shit when they’ve made a car that goes 0-60 in under 2 seconds and they’ve made rockets that land vertically and get caught out of the sky. “BuT WhErE aRe ThE RobOTaXIs?!”
I'm still wondering what it is about this Musk guy that can reach into the brain of someone who seems to pride themselves on being rational and detached, someone who throws down in the political threads not to advance specific politics but more to point out hypocrisies and flaws in logic of others, and get them to promptly regress to logic like "cybertrucks are popular so they must be good", and even start busting out some cringey tWiTtEr CaPs. Guess I need to read that book! EDIT: I appreciated your posts, Husyelt. I thought your perspective as an ex-fan who could see both the pros and the cons was pretty agreeable.
Maybe it’s some prototype of that brain thing that kills monkeys, only like exposed to random members of the public
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On November 07 2024 10:48 Turbovolver wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2024 20:57 BlackJack wrote:
Honestly what are you going to say to someone that thinks Musk’s companies are shit when they’ve made a car that goes 0-60 in under 2 seconds and they’ve made rockets that land vertically and get caught out of the sky. “BuT WhErE aRe ThE RobOTaXIs?!”
I'm still wondering what it is about this Musk guy that can reach into the brain of someone who seems to pride themselves on being rational and detached, someone who throws down in the political threads not to advance specific politics but more to point out hypocrisies and flaws in logic of others, and get them to promptly regress to logic like "cybertrucks are popular so they must be good", and even start busting out some cringey tWiTtEr CaPs. Guess I need to read that book! EDIT: I appreciated your posts, Husyelt. I thought your perspective as an ex-fan who could see both the pros and the cons was pretty agreeable.
Because being the best selling EV truck in the world is clearly bad, right? Surely I’m the irrational one for thinking otherwise.
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Ice cream also sells extremely well. I don't eat ice cream because it's good for me, I eat it because sometimes I just have an urge and I can't help myself. It's extremely tasty, don't blame me for my terrible choice. I should literally never eat a single bite of ice cream, but every so often it ends up in my stomach and every time I know how bad of a choice that is.
Yeah it's not a very compelling argument to say that, because something sells well, therefore it can't be really, really bad.
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On November 07 2024 11:56 BlackJack wrote:
Because being the best selling EV truck in the world is clearly bad, right? Surely I’m the irrational one for thinking otherwise.
2024 Movies Tierlist, by BlackJack
1 Inside Out 2 $1,697,092,880
2 Deadpool & Wolverine $1,337,792,962
3 Despicable Me 4 $967,529,476
4 Dune: Part Two $714,444,358
5 Godzilla x Kong: The New Empire $571,750,016
6 Kung Fu Panda 4 $547,634,675
7 Beetlejuice Beetlejuice $449,011,632
8 Bad Boys: Ride or Die $404,453,960
9 Kingdom of the Planet of the Apes $397,378,150
10 Twisters $370,962,265
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The Republicans won absolutely everything. So when are we going to Mars Elon?
On November 07 2024 12:30 Turbovolver wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2024 11:56 BlackJack wrote:
Because being the best selling EV truck in the world is clearly bad, right? Surely I’m the irrational one for thinking otherwise. 2024 Movies Tierlist, by BlackJack 1 Inside Out 2 $1,697,092,880 2 Deadpool & Wolverine $1,337,792,962 3 Despicable Me 4 $967,529,476 4 Dune: Part Two $714,444,358 5 Godzilla x Kong: The New Empire $571,750,016 6 Kung Fu Panda 4 $547,634,675 7 Beetlejuice Beetlejuice $449,011,632 8 Bad Boys: Ride or Die $404,453,960 9 Kingdom of the Planet of the Apes $397,378,150 10 Twisters $370,962,265
Capricorn 1 was better than all these movies.
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I mean I gotta admit that's a pretty facetious post from me anyway.
Not sure I really get defending the Cybertruck, though. Someone brought up Steve Jobs as a Musk-like figure earlier in the thread, and I think it's exactly like that, actually. The Cybertruck has an aesthetic, and its "cool" because of that aesthetic. Is it the truck you buy if you want a heavy-duty truck? No, you buy it if you like the aesthetic. I don't know why else you'd pay for those sharp edges, hollow panelling, and failing upon driving through a puddle*.
Just like I didn't understand why people would buy a computer that couldn't play 25%, 50%, 75% of games, whatever the figure was. Or every new iPhone that came out, on release.
* I did some due diligence on this instead of just taking that one super-dunked on clip at face value. I did also watch a YouTube video of a guy driving his Cybertruck through like knee or thigh deep water, so I am not going to pretend the puddle thing is representative. Then again, are other EVs failing in that way ever? And I don't just mean other makers, I mean other Tesla cars too. I have to imagine not.
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On November 07 2024 12:30 Turbovolver wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2024 11:56 BlackJack wrote:
Because being the best selling EV truck in the world is clearly bad, right? Surely I’m the irrational one for thinking otherwise. 2024 Movies Tierlist, by BlackJack 1 Inside Out 2 $1,697,092,880 2 Deadpool & Wolverine $1,337,792,962 3 Despicable Me 4 $967,529,476 4 Dune: Part Two $714,444,358 5 Godzilla x Kong: The New Empire $571,750,016 6 Kung Fu Panda 4 $547,634,675 7 Beetlejuice Beetlejuice $449,011,632 8 Bad Boys: Ride or Die $404,453,960 9 Kingdom of the Planet of the Apes $397,378,150 10 Twisters $370,962,265
Elon just lacks the business acumen to realize an artsy movie with Oscar potential that makes no money is better than a movie that makes a cool billion
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On November 05 2024 21:26 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2024 19:04 raynpelikoneet wrote:On November 05 2024 18:58 Jockmcplop wrote:
How?
War with advertisers who provide Twitter's income, participating in and encouraging all the absolute worst aspects of Twitter (making it a pretty hostile and unwelcoming place), just general Musk behaviour.
Twitter's value has fallen 71% since Musk took over. Yeah this is what i was asking What does it to you, mean that "making it a pretty hostile and unwelcoming place"? I know about the value fall, that's not really my point. E: I mean like should Twitter be more censored (like before)? Should it be censored in a certain way? Since Musk, Twitter has become much more censored than ever before. He's bending the knee to every authoritarian government, taking almost all of their requests. 83% (808 / 971) in the first six months after purchase. It was 50% before Elon Musk took over. He also banned the word "cis". And the rule against deadnaming has also been quietly removed. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/twitter-transgender-deadnaming-policy-change/
No.
Just no.
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Jesus you guys are gonna be crying for shit for the next 4 years.. :/
Also make sure you quit twitter like every goop person has already.
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Northern Ireland27305 Posts
On November 07 2024 18:31 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2024 12:30 Turbovolver wrote:On November 07 2024 11:56 BlackJack wrote:
Because being the best selling EV truck in the world is clearly bad, right? Surely I’m the irrational one for thinking otherwise. 2024 Movies Tierlist, by BlackJack 1 Inside Out 2 $1,697,092,880 2 Deadpool & Wolverine $1,337,792,962 3 Despicable Me 4 $967,529,476 4 Dune: Part Two $714,444,358 5 Godzilla x Kong: The New Empire $571,750,016 6 Kung Fu Panda 4 $547,634,675 7 Beetlejuice Beetlejuice $449,011,632 8 Bad Boys: Ride or Die $404,453,960 9 Kingdom of the Planet of the Apes $397,378,150 10 Twisters $370,962,265 Elon just lacks the business acumen to realize an artsy movie with Oscar potential that makes no money is better than a movie that makes a cool billion
How’s Twitter doing commercially?
Did asdie, I think it’s fair to look at the Cyber Truck being successful as an individual product, perhaps not actually great for the brand.
I mean personally I think it’s a stupid product, but those are my personal tastes. I think American’s obsession with giant, impractical trucks is just odd, but it is what it is.
Aside from avowed Musk haters, my perception is that Tesla has a reputation for decent/good quality products.
Whereas the Cybertruck has something of a reputation for being relatively low quality, with some bizarre and outright bad design choices and bad aftercare in dealing with said issues
Hey they made money, and I’m not saying it’s a disaster that will tank Tesla either.
I’ve not seen data on it so I’m going off intuition, which is that in another universe where Tesla didn’t make the Cybertruck, and, importantly really put it front and centre, their reputation is probably better than in this reality
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Northern Ireland27305 Posts
On November 08 2024 00:34 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2024 21:26 Magic Powers wrote:On November 05 2024 19:04 raynpelikoneet wrote:On November 05 2024 18:58 Jockmcplop wrote:
How?
War with advertisers who provide Twitter's income, participating in and encouraging all the absolute worst aspects of Twitter (making it a pretty hostile and unwelcoming place), just general Musk behaviour.
Twitter's value has fallen 71% since Musk took over. Yeah this is what i was asking What does it to you, mean that "making it a pretty hostile and unwelcoming place"? I know about the value fall, that's not really my point. E: I mean like should Twitter be more censored (like before)? Should it be censored in a certain way? Since Musk, Twitter has become much more censored than ever before. He's bending the knee to every authoritarian government, taking almost all of their requests. 83% (808 / 971) in the first six months after purchase. It was 50% before Elon Musk took over. He also banned the word "cis". And the rule against deadnaming has also been quietly removed. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/twitter-transgender-deadnaming-policy-change/ No. Just no.
Well yes, these things happened.
Regardless of one’s opinion on the previous regime, and I think they made mistakes, Twitter has granted more of those kind of requests since his takeover.
People just don’t give a shit if it’s not their country, or they’re now free to call folks the N word.
Now, crucially, I have argued many, many times for social media being moderated/censored in some way. I don’t have a perfect system, but I think it should revolve around some kind of consistent standard that’s fleshed out between industry, governments and end users.
I’ve made at least 10 walls of text in USPol on this topic in the last decade, perhaps more.
People are free to disagree with me on that. Go for it!
But, I’ve never claimed to be against the idea of censorship, just what that looks like. Musk has, he’s literally said he’s a free speech absolutist, and people of a similar mind cheered his takeover on that basis.
Which makes it rather awkward in any scenario where he’s censoring content he doesn’t like, or people who claim to be anti-censorship don’t have an issue with it.
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On November 08 2024 00:37 raynpelikoneet wrote:Jesus you guys are gonna be crying for shit for the next 4 years.. :/ Also make sure you quit twitter like every goop person has already.
I did, yeah. Bluesky is pretty okay.
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EPT
