EPTI have no idea how Twitter is or was business-wise.
Elon Musk's lies, propaganda, etc. - Page 10
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raynpelikoneet
Finland43268 Posts
I have no idea how Twitter is or was business-wise. | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9553 Posts
It means that Musk is very good at raising funds, which allows him to make absolutely huge errors like the multiple that he has made with Tesla that would normally spell the end of most businesses - and have the resources to brute force success. Not a bad thing in of itself, it just throws into question how much of an amazing businessman he is. | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9553 Posts
On November 05 2024 19:29 raynpelikoneet wrote: Do you have any reasonable point for that? I have no idea how Twitter is or was business-wise. Yeah it has lost most of its value as a business. | ||
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raynpelikoneet
Finland43268 Posts
On November 05 2024 19:29 Jockmcplop wrote: It means that Musk is very good at raising funds, which allows him to make absolutely huge errors like the multiple that he has made with Tesla that would normally spell the end of most businesses - and have the resources to brute force success. Not a bad thing in of itself, it just throws into question how much of an amazing businessman he is. How is this a bad thing? I don't really get it. He does not have to be amazing, just good. On November 05 2024 19:30 Jockmcplop wrote: Yeah it has lost most of its value as a business. I don't think Musk ever wanted Twitter for value (as i said before). | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9553 Posts
On November 05 2024 19:35 raynpelikoneet wrote: How is this a bad thing? I don't really get it. He does not have to be amazing, just good. I don't think Musk ever wanted Twitter for value (as i said before). Maybe we have crossed wires as to why i entered the conversation, which is that people were saying he's an amazing businessman and I wanted to qualify that statement given that he's made some pretty huge business mistakes that he only survived because of the insane amount of resources available to him. If we're down to 'he isn't amazing, just good' then we're on the same page. If he only wanted Twitter so he could turn it into an insane white supremacist hellhole then fine, but that doesn't particularly make him a great businessman. | ||
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raynpelikoneet
Finland43268 Posts
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9553 Posts
On November 05 2024 20:07 raynpelikoneet wrote: I don't think Elon Musk has turned Twitter into insane white supremacist hellhole. That's fine. Its not the kind of statement I'm going to back up, but its probably the kind of thing i will keep saying regardless. We can agree to disagree. | ||
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raynpelikoneet
Finland43268 Posts
On November 05 2024 20:10 Jockmcplop wrote: That's fine. Its not the kind of statement I'm going to back up, but its probably the kind of thing i will keep saying regardless. We can agree to disagree. Mmmm.. Everyone who agrees with you is 1) left, 2) super left) 3) delusional...  | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9553 Posts
On November 05 2024 20:12 raynpelikoneet wrote: Mmmm.. Everyone who agrees with you is 1) left, 2) super left) 3) delusional... I'm not delusional. At least I don't think I am. Its not easy to make mental health diagnoses over the internet based on what people think about one issue. You're very likely to be wrong if that's the road you're going down. I'm definitely left though. | ||
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raynpelikoneet
Finland43268 Posts
You do you, i do me. <3 | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria3771 Posts
On November 05 2024 19:04 raynpelikoneet wrote: Yeah this is what i was asking  What does it to you, mean that "making it a pretty hostile and unwelcoming place"? I know about the value fall, that's not really my point. E: I mean like should Twitter be more censored (like before)? Should it be censored in a certain way? Since Musk, Twitter has become much more censored than ever before. He's bending the knee to every authoritarian government, taking almost all of their requests. 83% (808 / 971) in the first six months after purchase. It was 50% before Elon Musk took over. He also banned the word "cis". And the rule against deadnaming has also been quietly removed. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/twitter-transgender-deadnaming-policy-change/ | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24782 Posts
On November 05 2024 16:40 Elroi wrote: And how can you brush off the PayPal thing like that? The PayPal maffia - tiel, musk etc. - could be called many things. But incompetent isn’t one of them. I don’t think it is so difficult to imagine a person being both brilliant when it comes to creating companies, as well as understanding technical and economic issues, while at the same time being a narcissist (I think that’s pretty obviously the case of musk) or a bad person (I don’t know if that’s the case). He got lucky, he’s not entirely without good ideas or talent don’t get me wrong But it wasn’t purely his idea, nor his tech that formed the basis of that company, and he effectively got turfed out for pushing shit ideas. But did become rather wealthy in that process. What became PayPal was a merger of competing products and platforms, of which Musk’s offering was the inferior one, with the considerably lower market share at the time. Musk’s fortunes tend to go in such a manner. He’s the name most associated with PayPal despite like, being bought out and kicked out in relative short order. Great inventions tend to have one, ideally two of three properties. 1. A new and novel approach to a problem, or a new opportunistic niche that creates something new. 2. Executing on a novel idea to deliver its potential. 3. Improving on an existing product to a really substantive degree. On 1, basically since the dawn of the internet people were hypothesising about figuring ways to do secure P2P transactions and how it could see big commercial potential. So, hardly a genius prescient idea. Not a bad idea either, and sometimes the person who believes fervently in the potential of an idea has far more impact than someone daydreaming. I’ll 100% give Elon credit on his drive, guy gets stuff done. Neither was Musk’s offering quite best in class either. Creditable sure but he ends up being perceived as Mr PayPal. Equally I do try to be fair. Indeed I think I and others perhaps lapse into being unfair purely as a reaction to his reputation as a super genius in some quarters. If X person says Musk single handedly built Space X, and you think that’s bullshit, one can be tempted to go the opposite and say he did fuck all. I really do studiously try to avoid doing that. He’s definitely got a certain skillset. A skillset that has pushed certain things, both cool and genuinely beneficial to humanity moving forwards. So fair play there. Just his reputation is somewhat well, inflated. Sure there are folks with more name recognition than others, but we don’t talk about some singular lord of the Apollo program, it’s rightly perceived as a giant collaborative effort. Sure Oppenheimer gets a ton of credit for the Manhattan project, but as a project lead of a team of great minds. Personally you gimme a chance to talk shop over a beer for a few hours, I think it’s Peter Thiel one would find more impressive. And perhaps scarier in a way. He’s sacrificed a bit of public recognition, and perhaps a little moolah to keep on doing his thing from the shadows. Musk has stuck his head above the parapet and I think shown some of his limitations, and I think ultimately it’ll backfire in a few ways. It’s hard to regain a reputation as a super genius, unless you actually are a super genius who was temporarily daft. As I don’t think he is a super genius, I don’t think he’s going to have much luck. He has pretty unappealing political views, so shouting them from the rooftops perhaps not so wise. It’s hard not to have divisive political views in a very polarised world, so I sympathise there but I think Musk’s directly clash with the very people who make up the core of his various enterprises. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24782 Posts
On November 05 2024 18:55 raynpelikoneet wrote: May i ask you why/how exactly has he completely fucked up twitter? 1) Rebranding it to X. A pointless rebrand, purely because he likes the letter X, so spectacularly unsuccessful that we still call it Twitter Not only is the name change idiotic, you also lose the nice noun/verb association of Twitter/Tweet. The iconic bird logo that also fits into that. Most businesses would absolutely kill for that brand recognition. Google is the best in class here, in that ‘to google’ is just used as a descriptor for searching something on the internet, but Twitter wasn’t super far off that. 2) Haemorrhaging money even more than before, for reasons others have outlined. 3) A verification system that doesn’t verify users, implemented because people were salty over blue check marks being ‘elitist’. Which is ironic given some of the other political views some of those folks have. A feature that existed for one reason, and a rather good reason, namely ‘Is this account claiming to be Stephen King, actually Stephen King?’ It worked. But nah fuck it let’s get rid, what could possibly go wrong? Oh within days trolls were impersonating Pharmaceutical Companies and making posts like ‘We’re not charging for insulin anymore’, causing stocks of those actual companies to tank? Golly gee who could have possibly seen that coming? 4) Making claims such as they’ve scrubbed most bots off the platform, or got rid of child pornography with zero evidence whatsoever to back it up. This isn’t a fuckup, so much as not delivering on something they claimed they’d do. Now I will say, I think certain things may be exaggerated in terms of the general vibe and content users post on the platform. Conservatives will say Twitter used to be some hellhole of abject censorship, and hey when I used to browse it sure as fuck didn’t look like it. And claim it’s ’way better now’. Folks on the left, the inverse. Honestly, outside it’s very nascent days I find it’s long been a hellhole and a cesspit in terms of civility, and I haven’t really noticed much of a shift. Researchers who actually do try to quantify such things cannot do so anymore as they’re now charged quite extortionate rates at times to do queries to Twitters API, which is much more closed off these days. This isn’t a move targeted at stopping research as a motive, merely a general change intended to gain new revenue, given the aforementioned ad flow problem. It’s had knock-on effects on various third party plugins and stuff as well. | ||
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Geiko
France1939 Posts
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Sermokala
United States13828 Posts
On November 05 2024 18:26 Harris1st wrote: While all true, there is a bunch of rich kids with rich parents but they are currently not the richest kids on earth. I think we all agree on Elon beeing an ass human beeing. I still stand by my point that he is/ was a great business man though. Extracting money from the government legally! and officially! and making it your own seems smart business. Just like surrounding yourself with smart people and letting them build smart things. No doubt some of his most recent pushes and decisions are, like you mentioned are , very dumb. Probably his big ego is driving the bus now. And people telling him he is so super getting in his head even more. His credibility as a "great business man" is built off of grift and lies though. He didn't build an innovative product that won in the marketplace on its own merit, it was designed off of a basic car base and infused with government money, his rocket company was built to follow government contracts and still thrives off of government programs funding most of spaceX. Sure you can say it was smart to target the government handout but it doesn't justify tesla being worth more than the rest of the automotive sector combined. His later works once the government money ran out for tesla show the rot of his "business sense" coming to roost. He will never make up the distance lost in the self driving game, he will never make the money back from making an entire bespoke manufacturing process for a truck without a steel core around its cast metal frame. If you can't slam the door on your car and expect it to hold you don't have a $100k product. He didn't make any decisions off of his own genius he simply followed a government handout and delivered what the government was asking for in return for taxpayer money. He never credits the government or the taxpayer for his success and now wants to get into government to cut 2 trillion in "waste" despite him being the recipient of that government "waste". On November 05 2024 22:18 Geiko wrote: Since there are some Musk supporters here, can I ask what you guys think of the ongoing trial regarding the 1M$/day sweepstake/lottery he set up in swing states ? I posted an article a few pages back but it turns out the entire thing was a scam for the propaganda, they pre chose the winners, it can't be a lottery if no one had a chance to win it. | ||
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Geiko
France1939 Posts
On November 05 2024 22:27 Sermokala wrote: I posted an article a few pages back but it turns out the entire thing was a scam for the propaganda, they pre chose the winners, it can't be a lottery if no one had a chance to win it. But I haven’t seen any musk supporters addressing this. I would like to know if they feel that this another example of Musk’s intelligence in managing to cleverly go around laws meant to prevent vote buying ? If they feel it’s ok to lie to voters if it’s for the greater good of getting people to sign up to vote ? For the record I am very much against Trump but I’m honestly interested in understanding how people from the other side rationalize these things. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24782 Posts
On November 05 2024 22:46 Geiko wrote: But I haven’t seen any musk supporters addressing this. I would like to know if they feel that this another example of Musk’s intelligence in managing to cleverly go around laws meant to prevent vote buying ? If they feel it’s ok to lie to voters if it’s for the greater good of getting people to sign up to vote ? For the record I am very much against Trump but I’m honestly interested in understanding how people from the other side rationalize these things. Incidentally, cheers for some of the Strat guides back in the day, Geiko’s 3 gate definitely made my PvPs more tolerable! Aye I’d be interested to hear what the rationales are. Hey I have my theories but they’re mine, and not coming from that position. I was reading the other day that Ben and Jerry’s were doing some ‘free ice cream for voting’ back in the day. Not sure how many cycles ago. They’re a company that somewhat has a lefty reputation, so perhaps there’s some innate demographic bias there, but on the surface it was a bipartisan kinda offer. They kinda noped out on doing it, it’s a legally dicey area. Perhaps they could have won, but didn’t want the expense, or perhaps on reflection felt even if legally sound, it didn’t really reflect the spirit of such statutes. Whatever their particular reasons, I don’t think Musk overly cares about such things. In some ways over the years his challenging of orthodoxy has brought some decent results, but unless you’re literally correct on every single possible issue, thinking that you are can bring many a pitfall | ||
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BlackJack
United States10366 Posts
One of the most prominent subsidies Tesla has ever gotten was a $465 million Advanced Technology Vehicles Manufacturing (ATVM) loan. A couple of legacy automakers (Ford and Nissan) got loans, and a couple of EV startups (Tesla and Fisker Automotive) got loans. Ford has never repaid its loan. Nissan repaid its loan in 2017. Tesla repaid its loan in 2013, 9 years early. Fisker defaulted and went bankrupt. Ford’s loan was for $5.937 billion. Nissan’s was $1.448 billion. Tesla’s was $0.465 billion. Fisker’s was $0.529 billion. You can see the divide in the thread from the people that get their information from www.elonmusksucks.com and people who don’t. Calling Tesla full of grift for getting taxpayer benefits when they are a fraction of what the other automakers have received makes zero sense. They are also likely the same people that would have praised Obama for multi billion dollar bailouts of the auto industry. None of it makes sense because it’s just incoherent muttering of people triggered by Musk becoming a Trumper. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria3771 Posts
On November 05 2024 23:29 BlackJack wrote: Remember when the federal government bailed out GM for $50 billion? Or Chrysler for $17 billion? Anything Tesla received would have been peanuts compared to that. You can see the divide in the thread from the people that get their information from www.elonmusksucks.com and people who don’t. Calling Tesla full of grift for getting taxpayer benefits when they are a fraction of what the other automakers have received makes zero sense. They are also likely the same people that would have praised Obama for multi billion dollar bailouts of the auto industry. None of it makes sense because it’s just incoherent muttering of people triggered by Musk becoming a Trumper. I'm triggered by Elon Musk supporting fascism, yes. That's what made me create this thread. I'm 100% open about my bias and I don't think I need to apologize for being against a fascism supporter. | ||
hexhaven
Finland929 Posts
On November 05 2024 23:29 BlackJack wrote: Remember when the federal government bailed out GM for $50 billion? Or Chrysler for $17 billion? Anything Tesla received would have been peanuts compared to that. You can see the divide in the thread from the people that get their information from www.elonmusksucks.com and people who don’t. Calling Tesla full of grift for getting taxpayer benefits when they are a fraction of what the other automakers have received makes zero sense. They are also likely the same people that would have praised Obama for multi billion dollar bailouts of the auto industry. None of it makes sense because it’s just incoherent muttering of people triggered by Musk becoming a Trumper. I checked that site for information on Elon Musk, and turns out there isn't any. | ||
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