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The way I read this is Zelenskyy doesn't want to give any free land to Russia even if I'm sure he knows it'll be tough to get Russia out of Ukraine. I don't think he had a plan for his US visit to expose Trump.
That's what I think when considering the following:
“He will not stick to cease-fire and that’s all. That is why I told the president [Trump] that I think phone calls are phone calls. But don’t make any decisions on Ukraine without Ukraine. And it is not about me, it is about the entire country. If we agree on a pause it will help Putin. And I don’t want to go [down] in history as [the] president who helped Putin to occupy my country,” Zelenskyy said.
https://www.politico.eu/article/ukraine-war-volodymyr-zelenskyy-donald-trump-putin-liar-peace/
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On March 03 2025 07:42 SC-Shield wrote:The way I read this is Zelenskyy doesn't want to give any free land to Russia even if I'm sure he knows it'll be tough to get Russia out of Ukraine. I don't think he had a plan for his US visit to expose Trump. That's what I think when considering the following: Show nested quote +“He will not stick to cease-fire and that’s all. That is why I told the president [Trump] that I think phone calls are phone calls. But don’t make any decisions on Ukraine without Ukraine. And it is not about me, it is about the entire country. If we agree on a pause it will help Putin. And I don’t want to go [down] in history as [the] president who helped Putin to occupy my country,” Zelenskyy said. https://www.politico.eu/article/ukraine-war-volodymyr-zelenskyy-donald-trump-putin-liar-peace/ Isn't that the default position for every head of state being invaded by a hostile foreign power? No one enters the negotiations going "so how about we give you half our country"
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Canada11278 Posts
Well sure, but Russia has a track record of not honouring agreements, so it follows that Zelensky's number one question is... okay, so what happens if Russia doesn't honour the deal?
Even if Trump is right- that Putin will never attack because of Trump's personal guarantee. Who cares, Russia seems to take a five year pause to build up and take the next swing... by then Trump's out of office and Putin's ready to go again. And even if Trump is going for a third term, unless Trump plans to live forever, Trump's say so as the single guarantee that Putin won't do nothing means nothing.
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It is also not like Trump is reliable, he is tearing up the deals he made last term. Hell he is even insulting the idiot who made those deals. When you can't trust his signature, no way you are trusting his word.
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On March 03 2025 10:08 Falling wrote:
Well sure, but Russia has a track record of not honouring agreements, so it follows that Zelensky's number one question is... okay, so what happens if Russia doesn't honour the deal?
Even if Trump is right- that Putin will never attack because of Trump's personal guarantee. Who cares, Russia seems to take a five year pause to build up and take the next swing... by then Trump's out of office and Putin's ready to go again. And even if Trump is going for a third term, unless Trump plans to live forever, Trump's say so as the single guarantee that Putin won't do nothing means nothing.
Ukraine should have kept their nukes. They gave them away in exchange for "guarantees" from Russia when the USSR broke up. They will never do this mistake again.
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On March 02 2025 23:21 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2025 21:06 ETisME wrote:On March 02 2025 18:57 Excludos wrote:On March 02 2025 09:49 ETisME wrote:On March 02 2025 05:04 Uldridge wrote:
Jimmy. You can't explain that. Ever. Does every country always just fold when they get invaded then, via your logic, because you can't let your 20 year old sons die to the meatgrinder? Come on. What is this?
With your logic the nation who moves first just always wins everything while everyone who'soved upon just loses.. everything? What a weak synthesis. Ukraine and Russia engaged in peace talk few days after the war. Not all war are fight to the last men. I see some mentioned Ukraine can still be in the war for a few more years, yes maybe they have the resources, but no way they can last another 3 years. the Ukrainians wants to make the war end quickly with negotiation. https://news.gallup.com/poll/653495/half-ukrainians-quick-negotiated-end-war.aspxhttps://kyivindependent.com/ukrainians-poll/The real issue with Ukraine is a lack of men, with conscription age dropped to 25. Both Biden and Trump requested to drop to 18 which was refused. > The narrative of fighting an existential war no longer seems to move the majority of Ukrainians. https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2025/1/23/why-is-ukraine-struggling-to-mobilise-its-citizens-to-fightAnd that's the reality of it, the conscription number shows it clearly that Ukrainians aren't THAT motivated to fight, especially if they need to be in the battle front. If EU wants to support Zelenskyy and continue the war, then they should send troops. That's how they can get momentum back and regain grounds. Zelenskyy was there just for one diplomatic mission: Sign the deal, get US support and comes with EU support, and kickstart the negotiation to end the war. if he didn't want to take the deal, then just don't go or say it out right during the discussions. Instead of whatever happened. Literally one of the worst outcome. Dude, Ukraine doesn't even have enough equipment to arm the men they do have. What would be the point of lowering conscription age? It's insane to me to pretend that they aren't motivated to fight, after all that's happened. And at the end of the day, polls show the majority still wants to fight for their land, and they support Zelenskyy. Of course peace is preferred, nobody wants their brothers and sisters to die. But it can't be at any cost and no guarantee Ukrainian poll numbers is from here: https://news.gallup.com/poll/653495/half-ukrainians-quick-negotiated-end-war.aspxGully is a highly respected data research consultancy; ask any researcher or uni professor. This isn't pretend. Ukraine conscription effort wasn't as good as they wished, this is a known fact. Conscription is compulsory, has nothing to do with equipment. they want to lower the age to get more men. "nobody wants their brothers and sisters to die." and even less if they have to go to the frontline to die. My biggest issue with the whole situation, is that this is presented as existential threat for Europe and its values by EU leaders and Biden. So far I think only Macron (respect) has suggested they should consider sending deployments in some form. (not for peace keeping after the peace deal) That's when I would actually respect the EU and admit they aren't just doing a massive political show. now that Trump has pushed the EU to be more active, and we can expect a longer war, maybe it isn't impossible. Last time the proposal was rejected war 2024 Feb, so a year ago. I’m not sure that more broadly that this is how the conflict is presented in terms of messaging. It’s mostly help Ukraine out because it’s the right thing to do, and part ‘hey if Russia subsumed Georgia, the East of Ukraine, then attempted to do so with the rest of Ukraine, what’s to stop them trying similar pushes with former components of the USSR around Europe’s Eastern borders?’ I’m not saying there’s zero hyperbole going, but it’s not the main thrust. That’s me over in the UK anyway, maybe the messaging is different elsewhere in Europe. We’re perhaps on the periphery post Brexit, so I’m not sure how our (general) outlook is reflected in continental Europe. Russia is an irritant, not an existential threat, outside of nuclear war and well if that happens we’re all fucked anyway. We’d rather Russia just stop being dicks. Would be better for everyone involved. Instead Russia would prefer to assassinate defectors on UK soil, alongside all the other fuckery. ‘That's when I would actually respect the EU and admit they aren't just doing a massive political show.’ What else would they do? It’s a political problem, and a tricky one at that. Take any parallel reality where Russia didn’t behave like gigantic assholes, and they’re all better. Not just for everyone else but Russians themselves.
Initially what I garner from friends and media, Brexit was like: "oh god are the Brits stupid, digging their own economic grave, kinda funny"
With the war and the recent developments this has shifted to "EU would be lot stronger with the Brits in it and have a lot more leverage on all fronts. The Brits fucked it up royally. Fuck them"
No offense to you or anyone personally.
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On March 03 2025 19:41 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2025 23:21 WombaT wrote:On March 02 2025 21:06 ETisME wrote:On March 02 2025 18:57 Excludos wrote:On March 02 2025 09:49 ETisME wrote:On March 02 2025 05:04 Uldridge wrote:
Jimmy. You can't explain that. Ever. Does every country always just fold when they get invaded then, via your logic, because you can't let your 20 year old sons die to the meatgrinder? Come on. What is this?
With your logic the nation who moves first just always wins everything while everyone who'soved upon just loses.. everything? What a weak synthesis. Ukraine and Russia engaged in peace talk few days after the war. Not all war are fight to the last men. I see some mentioned Ukraine can still be in the war for a few more years, yes maybe they have the resources, but no way they can last another 3 years. the Ukrainians wants to make the war end quickly with negotiation. https://news.gallup.com/poll/653495/half-ukrainians-quick-negotiated-end-war.aspxhttps://kyivindependent.com/ukrainians-poll/The real issue with Ukraine is a lack of men, with conscription age dropped to 25. Both Biden and Trump requested to drop to 18 which was refused. > The narrative of fighting an existential war no longer seems to move the majority of Ukrainians. https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2025/1/23/why-is-ukraine-struggling-to-mobilise-its-citizens-to-fightAnd that's the reality of it, the conscription number shows it clearly that Ukrainians aren't THAT motivated to fight, especially if they need to be in the battle front. If EU wants to support Zelenskyy and continue the war, then they should send troops. That's how they can get momentum back and regain grounds. Zelenskyy was there just for one diplomatic mission: Sign the deal, get US support and comes with EU support, and kickstart the negotiation to end the war. if he didn't want to take the deal, then just don't go or say it out right during the discussions. Instead of whatever happened. Literally one of the worst outcome. Dude, Ukraine doesn't even have enough equipment to arm the men they do have. What would be the point of lowering conscription age? It's insane to me to pretend that they aren't motivated to fight, after all that's happened. And at the end of the day, polls show the majority still wants to fight for their land, and they support Zelenskyy. Of course peace is preferred, nobody wants their brothers and sisters to die. But it can't be at any cost and no guarantee Ukrainian poll numbers is from here: https://news.gallup.com/poll/653495/half-ukrainians-quick-negotiated-end-war.aspxGully is a highly respected data research consultancy; ask any researcher or uni professor. This isn't pretend. Ukraine conscription effort wasn't as good as they wished, this is a known fact. Conscription is compulsory, has nothing to do with equipment. they want to lower the age to get more men. "nobody wants their brothers and sisters to die." and even less if they have to go to the frontline to die. My biggest issue with the whole situation, is that this is presented as existential threat for Europe and its values by EU leaders and Biden. So far I think only Macron (respect) has suggested they should consider sending deployments in some form. (not for peace keeping after the peace deal) That's when I would actually respect the EU and admit they aren't just doing a massive political show. now that Trump has pushed the EU to be more active, and we can expect a longer war, maybe it isn't impossible. Last time the proposal was rejected war 2024 Feb, so a year ago. I’m not sure that more broadly that this is how the conflict is presented in terms of messaging. It’s mostly help Ukraine out because it’s the right thing to do, and part ‘hey if Russia subsumed Georgia, the East of Ukraine, then attempted to do so with the rest of Ukraine, what’s to stop them trying similar pushes with former components of the USSR around Europe’s Eastern borders?’ I’m not saying there’s zero hyperbole going, but it’s not the main thrust. That’s me over in the UK anyway, maybe the messaging is different elsewhere in Europe. We’re perhaps on the periphery post Brexit, so I’m not sure how our (general) outlook is reflected in continental Europe. Russia is an irritant, not an existential threat, outside of nuclear war and well if that happens we’re all fucked anyway. We’d rather Russia just stop being dicks. Would be better for everyone involved. Instead Russia would prefer to assassinate defectors on UK soil, alongside all the other fuckery. ‘That's when I would actually respect the EU and admit they aren't just doing a massive political show.’ What else would they do? It’s a political problem, and a tricky one at that. Take any parallel reality where Russia didn’t behave like gigantic assholes, and they’re all better. Not just for everyone else but Russians themselves. Initially what I garner from friends and media, Brexit was like: "oh god are the Brits stupid, digging their own economic grave, kinda funny" With the war and the recent developments this has shifted to "EU would be lot stronger with the Brits in it and have a lot more leverage on all fronts. The Brits fucked it up royally. Fuck them" No offense to you or anyone personally.
Who cares about Brexit anymore? The events have shown that the EU needs the UK and the UK needs the EU in order to be of geopolitical relevance in the future and not just be victims or vassals in the new World order.
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On March 03 2025 19:41 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2025 23:21 WombaT wrote:On March 02 2025 21:06 ETisME wrote:On March 02 2025 18:57 Excludos wrote:On March 02 2025 09:49 ETisME wrote:On March 02 2025 05:04 Uldridge wrote:
Jimmy. You can't explain that. Ever. Does every country always just fold when they get invaded then, via your logic, because you can't let your 20 year old sons die to the meatgrinder? Come on. What is this?
With your logic the nation who moves first just always wins everything while everyone who'soved upon just loses.. everything? What a weak synthesis. Ukraine and Russia engaged in peace talk few days after the war. Not all war are fight to the last men. I see some mentioned Ukraine can still be in the war for a few more years, yes maybe they have the resources, but no way they can last another 3 years. the Ukrainians wants to make the war end quickly with negotiation. https://news.gallup.com/poll/653495/half-ukrainians-quick-negotiated-end-war.aspxhttps://kyivindependent.com/ukrainians-poll/The real issue with Ukraine is a lack of men, with conscription age dropped to 25. Both Biden and Trump requested to drop to 18 which was refused. > The narrative of fighting an existential war no longer seems to move the majority of Ukrainians. https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2025/1/23/why-is-ukraine-struggling-to-mobilise-its-citizens-to-fightAnd that's the reality of it, the conscription number shows it clearly that Ukrainians aren't THAT motivated to fight, especially if they need to be in the battle front. If EU wants to support Zelenskyy and continue the war, then they should send troops. That's how they can get momentum back and regain grounds. Zelenskyy was there just for one diplomatic mission: Sign the deal, get US support and comes with EU support, and kickstart the negotiation to end the war. if he didn't want to take the deal, then just don't go or say it out right during the discussions. Instead of whatever happened. Literally one of the worst outcome. Dude, Ukraine doesn't even have enough equipment to arm the men they do have. What would be the point of lowering conscription age? It's insane to me to pretend that they aren't motivated to fight, after all that's happened. And at the end of the day, polls show the majority still wants to fight for their land, and they support Zelenskyy. Of course peace is preferred, nobody wants their brothers and sisters to die. But it can't be at any cost and no guarantee Ukrainian poll numbers is from here: https://news.gallup.com/poll/653495/half-ukrainians-quick-negotiated-end-war.aspxGully is a highly respected data research consultancy; ask any researcher or uni professor. This isn't pretend. Ukraine conscription effort wasn't as good as they wished, this is a known fact. Conscription is compulsory, has nothing to do with equipment. they want to lower the age to get more men. "nobody wants their brothers and sisters to die." and even less if they have to go to the frontline to die. My biggest issue with the whole situation, is that this is presented as existential threat for Europe and its values by EU leaders and Biden. So far I think only Macron (respect) has suggested they should consider sending deployments in some form. (not for peace keeping after the peace deal) That's when I would actually respect the EU and admit they aren't just doing a massive political show. now that Trump has pushed the EU to be more active, and we can expect a longer war, maybe it isn't impossible. Last time the proposal was rejected war 2024 Feb, so a year ago. I’m not sure that more broadly that this is how the conflict is presented in terms of messaging. It’s mostly help Ukraine out because it’s the right thing to do, and part ‘hey if Russia subsumed Georgia, the East of Ukraine, then attempted to do so with the rest of Ukraine, what’s to stop them trying similar pushes with former components of the USSR around Europe’s Eastern borders?’ I’m not saying there’s zero hyperbole going, but it’s not the main thrust. That’s me over in the UK anyway, maybe the messaging is different elsewhere in Europe. We’re perhaps on the periphery post Brexit, so I’m not sure how our (general) outlook is reflected in continental Europe. Russia is an irritant, not an existential threat, outside of nuclear war and well if that happens we’re all fucked anyway. We’d rather Russia just stop being dicks. Would be better for everyone involved. Instead Russia would prefer to assassinate defectors on UK soil, alongside all the other fuckery. ‘That's when I would actually respect the EU and admit they aren't just doing a massive political show.’ What else would they do? It’s a political problem, and a tricky one at that. Take any parallel reality where Russia didn’t behave like gigantic assholes, and they’re all better. Not just for everyone else but Russians themselves. Initially what I garner from friends and media, Brexit was like: "oh god are the Brits stupid, digging their own economic grave, kinda funny" With the war and the recent developments this has shifted to "EU would be lot stronger with the Brits in it and have a lot more leverage on all fronts. The Brits fucked it up royally. Fuck them" No offense to you or anyone personally.
Brexit hurt UK on the economic level. EU suffered on the military level (but not as much since NATO is still the main thing and it's not tied to EU).
The meeting between Zelensky and Trump was an absolute political disaster for the US IMO. Trump and Vance acted like teenagers who got their feelings hurt while Zelensky kept his cool and was using reasonable arguments. Overall it looked like 2 bullies shouting at a guy who came to them for help. Another thing that Trump was repeating constantly is that he won't provide any guarantees before the deal is signed (give me the money first then we talk) which sounds more like an extortionist protection racket and not a good guy attitude.
I'm kinda worried what will happen now because there's a big shift across the world now. Within a month in the office Trump managed to undo decades of US soft power influence around the world and turned back on his closest allies. This is doubly bad for the US because they moved to mostly service based economy, they're importing their own products and are super reliant on those imports in the globalized world. The problem for them is that they might be a military superpower but potential embargos would destroy US economy completely. New tariffs on Canada and Mexico (for the deals Trump signed previously) are just icing on the cake since those 2 countries are responsible for 30% of all US imports (and Canada's gas is 98% of all US gas imports and now Canada wants to cut it off and sell it to Europe instead).
Instead, Trump wants to align closer with Russia, abandoning current alliances. This is also a very risky move because if other countries can somehow maintain support for Ukraine long enough for Russia to collapse it's all for nothing for him.
Also, I'm actually super pissed and flabbergasted at some of the US rhetoric when it comes to those "peace talks". Like Musk stating publicly "Why are Ukraininans fighting? What are they dying for? Let's end this." - FFS, they're fighting and dying to protect their own country from an invader. My blood was literally boiling when I saw that.
Now, what the Zelensky/Trump meeting achieved:
There was a meeting in London between EU leaders, Canada and Turkey also showed up.
- Everyone agreed to immediate armament and taking responsibility for the security of the continent.
- There's full agreement on the necessity of continued support for Ukraine and increasing economic pressure on Russia.
- Any form of a peace deal must guarantee Ukraine's sovereignty and security and no talks on those matters can take place without Ukraine's participation.
- Ukraine will be fully strengthened even after the war so it can defend itself in the future.
- France, UK and maybe one or two other countries (maybe Turkey), together with Ukraine will draft their own plan for ceasfire and present it to the US.
- France and UK are also in the center of "volunteer coalition" that wants to send troops to Ukraine to maintain peace. Canada also wants to send troops.
- Europe will take the full brunt for all of this but they need US guarantees.
- Starmer was talking about "boots and aviation" in Ukraine.
- UK is giving Ukraine 3.8 billion pounds (1.6b for anti-air systems RapidRanger) and 2.2b as a loan to be paid back from Russian assets.
- Italian PM Meloni offered to be an intermediary between US and Ukraine. She urged to organize EU-USA summit.
- Ursula von der Leyen said that on March 6th at the council meeting they'll propose a financial packet for arms (few hundred billion euros). She was talking about the necessity of turning Ukraine into "steel porcupine", country so armed that after the war no one will dare to attack it.
- PM Tusk wants to increase EU military presence on the eastern flank. Finland, the Baltics and Poland.
- Russia must be a part of the peace talks but it can not dictate any terms. There will be no demilitarization of Ukraine.
European leaders are sending quite a clear message here. Full support for Ukraine, no soft talks with Russia and they won't be left out of the negotiations. Trump got nothing out of Russia and is now facing increased pressure from the EU.
Another thing is that Australia, Canada and Japan are now moving away from the US and aligning closer with the EU.
In Norway they've stopped supplying US military with fuel and have immediately put a stop to refueling US ships in Norwegian ports. As a sign of protest over how Zelensky was treated by Trump.
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On March 03 2025 20:38 Maenander wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2025 19:41 Harris1st wrote:On March 02 2025 23:21 WombaT wrote:On March 02 2025 21:06 ETisME wrote:On March 02 2025 18:57 Excludos wrote:On March 02 2025 09:49 ETisME wrote:On March 02 2025 05:04 Uldridge wrote:
Jimmy. You can't explain that. Ever. Does every country always just fold when they get invaded then, via your logic, because you can't let your 20 year old sons die to the meatgrinder? Come on. What is this?
With your logic the nation who moves first just always wins everything while everyone who'soved upon just loses.. everything? What a weak synthesis. Ukraine and Russia engaged in peace talk few days after the war. Not all war are fight to the last men. I see some mentioned Ukraine can still be in the war for a few more years, yes maybe they have the resources, but no way they can last another 3 years. the Ukrainians wants to make the war end quickly with negotiation. https://news.gallup.com/poll/653495/half-ukrainians-quick-negotiated-end-war.aspxhttps://kyivindependent.com/ukrainians-poll/The real issue with Ukraine is a lack of men, with conscription age dropped to 25. Both Biden and Trump requested to drop to 18 which was refused. > The narrative of fighting an existential war no longer seems to move the majority of Ukrainians. https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2025/1/23/why-is-ukraine-struggling-to-mobilise-its-citizens-to-fightAnd that's the reality of it, the conscription number shows it clearly that Ukrainians aren't THAT motivated to fight, especially if they need to be in the battle front. If EU wants to support Zelenskyy and continue the war, then they should send troops. That's how they can get momentum back and regain grounds. Zelenskyy was there just for one diplomatic mission: Sign the deal, get US support and comes with EU support, and kickstart the negotiation to end the war. if he didn't want to take the deal, then just don't go or say it out right during the discussions. Instead of whatever happened. Literally one of the worst outcome. Dude, Ukraine doesn't even have enough equipment to arm the men they do have. What would be the point of lowering conscription age? It's insane to me to pretend that they aren't motivated to fight, after all that's happened. And at the end of the day, polls show the majority still wants to fight for their land, and they support Zelenskyy. Of course peace is preferred, nobody wants their brothers and sisters to die. But it can't be at any cost and no guarantee Ukrainian poll numbers is from here: https://news.gallup.com/poll/653495/half-ukrainians-quick-negotiated-end-war.aspxGully is a highly respected data research consultancy; ask any researcher or uni professor. This isn't pretend. Ukraine conscription effort wasn't as good as they wished, this is a known fact. Conscription is compulsory, has nothing to do with equipment. they want to lower the age to get more men. "nobody wants their brothers and sisters to die." and even less if they have to go to the frontline to die. My biggest issue with the whole situation, is that this is presented as existential threat for Europe and its values by EU leaders and Biden. So far I think only Macron (respect) has suggested they should consider sending deployments in some form. (not for peace keeping after the peace deal) That's when I would actually respect the EU and admit they aren't just doing a massive political show. now that Trump has pushed the EU to be more active, and we can expect a longer war, maybe it isn't impossible. Last time the proposal was rejected war 2024 Feb, so a year ago. I’m not sure that more broadly that this is how the conflict is presented in terms of messaging. It’s mostly help Ukraine out because it’s the right thing to do, and part ‘hey if Russia subsumed Georgia, the East of Ukraine, then attempted to do so with the rest of Ukraine, what’s to stop them trying similar pushes with former components of the USSR around Europe’s Eastern borders?’ I’m not saying there’s zero hyperbole going, but it’s not the main thrust. That’s me over in the UK anyway, maybe the messaging is different elsewhere in Europe. We’re perhaps on the periphery post Brexit, so I’m not sure how our (general) outlook is reflected in continental Europe. Russia is an irritant, not an existential threat, outside of nuclear war and well if that happens we’re all fucked anyway. We’d rather Russia just stop being dicks. Would be better for everyone involved. Instead Russia would prefer to assassinate defectors on UK soil, alongside all the other fuckery. ‘That's when I would actually respect the EU and admit they aren't just doing a massive political show.’ What else would they do? It’s a political problem, and a tricky one at that. Take any parallel reality where Russia didn’t behave like gigantic assholes, and they’re all better. Not just for everyone else but Russians themselves. Initially what I garner from friends and media, Brexit was like: "oh god are the Brits stupid, digging their own economic grave, kinda funny" With the war and the recent developments this has shifted to "EU would be lot stronger with the Brits in it and have a lot more leverage on all fronts. The Brits fucked it up royally. Fuck them" No offense to you or anyone personally. Who cares about Brexit anymore? The events have shown that the EU needs the UK and the UK needs the EU in order to be of geopolitical relevance in the future and not just be victims or vassals in the new World order.
Maybe I'm being overly picky with the way you wrote that, but that's exactly why we should care about Brexit; because it was an absolute terrible fiasco for everyone involved. The brits were sold on a complete lie, showing the world just how easy it is to convince huge portions of people to let the leopard eat their face, with just a little bit of targeted propaganda. Unfortunately, it's not a cat you can easily pick back into the bag. It cost an absolute fortune for both sides to do the split, and it would cost another fortune to reintegrate the brits back into EU, with no guarantee that they won't just leave the next moment some asshole with silly hair starts touring the countryside whining about bendy bananas.
But as some other people have pointed out, whilst EU would be undeniably stronger with London in it, it's primarily an economic cooperation, not a military one, which is what Nato is for. So we can still sit here on the other side of the lake watching with glee as the Brits come to terms with the bullet-hole in their own foot, whilst still enjoying cooperation and unity when it comes to military power. They have shown us these last 3 years they can still be relied upon when it comes to defending democracy and freedom, and that's what matters most right now
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On March 03 2025 21:40 Manit0u wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2025 19:41 Harris1st wrote:On March 02 2025 23:21 WombaT wrote:On March 02 2025 21:06 ETisME wrote:On March 02 2025 18:57 Excludos wrote:On March 02 2025 09:49 ETisME wrote:On March 02 2025 05:04 Uldridge wrote:
Jimmy. You can't explain that. Ever. Does every country always just fold when they get invaded then, via your logic, because you can't let your 20 year old sons die to the meatgrinder? Come on. What is this?
With your logic the nation who moves first just always wins everything while everyone who'soved upon just loses.. everything? What a weak synthesis. Ukraine and Russia engaged in peace talk few days after the war. Not all war are fight to the last men. I see some mentioned Ukraine can still be in the war for a few more years, yes maybe they have the resources, but no way they can last another 3 years. the Ukrainians wants to make the war end quickly with negotiation. https://news.gallup.com/poll/653495/half-ukrainians-quick-negotiated-end-war.aspxhttps://kyivindependent.com/ukrainians-poll/The real issue with Ukraine is a lack of men, with conscription age dropped to 25. Both Biden and Trump requested to drop to 18 which was refused. > The narrative of fighting an existential war no longer seems to move the majority of Ukrainians. https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2025/1/23/why-is-ukraine-struggling-to-mobilise-its-citizens-to-fightAnd that's the reality of it, the conscription number shows it clearly that Ukrainians aren't THAT motivated to fight, especially if they need to be in the battle front. If EU wants to support Zelenskyy and continue the war, then they should send troops. That's how they can get momentum back and regain grounds. Zelenskyy was there just for one diplomatic mission: Sign the deal, get US support and comes with EU support, and kickstart the negotiation to end the war. if he didn't want to take the deal, then just don't go or say it out right during the discussions. Instead of whatever happened. Literally one of the worst outcome. Dude, Ukraine doesn't even have enough equipment to arm the men they do have. What would be the point of lowering conscription age? It's insane to me to pretend that they aren't motivated to fight, after all that's happened. And at the end of the day, polls show the majority still wants to fight for their land, and they support Zelenskyy. Of course peace is preferred, nobody wants their brothers and sisters to die. But it can't be at any cost and no guarantee Ukrainian poll numbers is from here: https://news.gallup.com/poll/653495/half-ukrainians-quick-negotiated-end-war.aspxGully is a highly respected data research consultancy; ask any researcher or uni professor. This isn't pretend. Ukraine conscription effort wasn't as good as they wished, this is a known fact. Conscription is compulsory, has nothing to do with equipment. they want to lower the age to get more men. "nobody wants their brothers and sisters to die." and even less if they have to go to the frontline to die. My biggest issue with the whole situation, is that this is presented as existential threat for Europe and its values by EU leaders and Biden. So far I think only Macron (respect) has suggested they should consider sending deployments in some form. (not for peace keeping after the peace deal) That's when I would actually respect the EU and admit they aren't just doing a massive political show. now that Trump has pushed the EU to be more active, and we can expect a longer war, maybe it isn't impossible. Last time the proposal was rejected war 2024 Feb, so a year ago. I’m not sure that more broadly that this is how the conflict is presented in terms of messaging. It’s mostly help Ukraine out because it’s the right thing to do, and part ‘hey if Russia subsumed Georgia, the East of Ukraine, then attempted to do so with the rest of Ukraine, what’s to stop them trying similar pushes with former components of the USSR around Europe’s Eastern borders?’ I’m not saying there’s zero hyperbole going, but it’s not the main thrust. That’s me over in the UK anyway, maybe the messaging is different elsewhere in Europe. We’re perhaps on the periphery post Brexit, so I’m not sure how our (general) outlook is reflected in continental Europe. Russia is an irritant, not an existential threat, outside of nuclear war and well if that happens we’re all fucked anyway. We’d rather Russia just stop being dicks. Would be better for everyone involved. Instead Russia would prefer to assassinate defectors on UK soil, alongside all the other fuckery. ‘That's when I would actually respect the EU and admit they aren't just doing a massive political show.’ What else would they do? It’s a political problem, and a tricky one at that. Take any parallel reality where Russia didn’t behave like gigantic assholes, and they’re all better. Not just for everyone else but Russians themselves. Initially what I garner from friends and media, Brexit was like: "oh god are the Brits stupid, digging their own economic grave, kinda funny" With the war and the recent developments this has shifted to "EU would be lot stronger with the Brits in it and have a lot more leverage on all fronts. The Brits fucked it up royally. Fuck them" No offense to you or anyone personally. Brexit hurt UK on the economic level. EU suffered on the military level (but not as much since NATO is still the main thing and it's not tied to EU). The meeting between Zelensky and Trump was an absolute political disaster for the US IMO. Trump and Vance acted like teenagers who got their feelings hurt while Zelensky kept his cool and was using reasonable arguments. Overall it looked like 2 bullies shouting at a guy who came to them for help. Another thing that Trump was repeating constantly is that he won't provide any guarantees before the deal is signed (give me the money first then we talk) which sounds more like an extortionist protection racket and not a good guy attitude. I'm kinda worried what will happen now because there's a big shift across the world now. Within a month in the office Trump managed to undo decades of US soft power influence around the world and turned back on his closest allies. This is doubly bad for the US because they moved to mostly service based economy, they're importing their own products and are super reliant on those imports in the globalized world. The problem for them is that they might be a military superpower but potential embargos would destroy US economy completely. New tariffs on Canada and Mexico (for the deals Trump signed previously) are just icing on the cake since those 2 countries are responsible for 30% of all US imports (and Canada's gas is 98% of all US gas imports and now Canada wants to cut it off and sell it to Europe instead). Instead, Trump wants to align closer with Russia, abandoning current alliances. This is also a very risky move because if other countries can somehow maintain support for Ukraine long enough for Russia to collapse it's all for nothing for him. Also, I'm actually super pissed and flabbergasted at some of the US rhetoric when it comes to those "peace talks". Like Musk stating publicly "Why are Ukraininans fighting? What are they dying for? Let's end this." - FFS, they're fighting and dying to protect their own country from an invader. My blood was literally boiling when I saw that. Now, what the Zelensky/Trump meeting achieved: There was a meeting in London between EU leaders, Canada and Turkey also showed up. - Everyone agreed to immediate armament and taking responsibility for the security of the continent.
- There's full agreement on the necessity of continued support for Ukraine and increasing economic pressure on Russia.
- Any form of a peace deal must guarantee Ukraine's sovereignty and security and no talks on those matters can take place without Ukraine's participation.
- Ukraine will be fully strengthened even after the war so it can defend itself in the future.
- France, UK and maybe one or two other countries (maybe Turkey), together with Ukraine will draft their own plan for ceasfire and present it to the US.
- France and UK are also in the center of "volunteer coalition" that wants to send troops to Ukraine to maintain peace. Canada also wants to send troops.
- Europe will take the full brunt for all of this but they need US guarantees.
- Starmer was talking about "boots and aviation" in Ukraine.
- UK is giving Ukraine 3.8 billion pounds (1.6b for anti-air systems RapidRanger) and 2.2b as a loan to be paid back from Russian assets.
- Italian PM Meloni offered to be an intermediary between US and Ukraine. She urged to organize EU-USA summit.
- Ursula von der Leyen said that on March 6th at the council meeting they'll propose a financial packet for arms (few hundred billion euros). She was talking about the necessity of turning Ukraine into "steel porcupine", country so armed that after the war no one will dare to attack it.
- PM Tusk wants to increase EU military presence on the eastern flank. Finland, the Baltics and Poland.
- Russia must be a part of the peace talks but it can not dictate any terms. There will be no demilitarization of Ukraine.
European leaders are sending quite a clear message here. Full support for Ukraine, no soft talks with Russia and they won't be left out of the negotiations. Trump got nothing out of Russia and is now facing increased pressure from the EU. Another thing is that Australia, Canada and Japan are now moving away from the US and aligning closer with the EU. In Norway they've stopped supplying US military with fuel and have immediately put a stop to refueling US ships in Norwegian ports. As a sign of protest over how Zelensky was treated by Trump.
There's also a proposal in the Norwegian Parliament to drastically increase Ukraine support; increasing the support from previously €3B to €11.5B, and there seems to be pretty wide agreement to approve it (This is on top of the €13.2B that was approved in 2023 in the Nansen program to last until 2030)
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On March 03 2025 10:17 Billyboy wrote:
It is also not like Trump is reliable, he is tearing up the deals he made last term. Hell he is even insulting the idiot who made those deals. When you can't trust his signature, no way you are trusting his word.
Bang, Dead, On The Money.
This allows Zelensky to play the cornered victim caught between 2 malevolent super-powers. This gives him the excuse he needs to give up land and save face to some degree with his people. This gives Zelensky the excuse he needs to begin negotiating with Putin. Trump gave Zelensky the platform to state his grievances with Russia/Putin. The psychotherapy session is over. Dr. Trump's hourly rate is sky high so it is time for some action from Zelensky and Putin.
Its possible Zelensky and Trump choreographed the circus act in the white house to emphasize how unstable US support is.
OTOH, Trump wants to end the war as quickly as possible because plenty of Americans and specifically Republicans are not cool with supporting a war effort for eternity. The only thing that keeps the USA involved is a tangible, well measured return on investment. Trump is weakening Zelensky's position and forcing him to the negotiation table. Trump is also forcing Europe to step in.
Over all, Trump has done a nice job representing the interests of the American people. And, his buddies at Fox News are very thankful for the awesome clickbait content he has created.
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On March 03 2025 23:24 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2025 10:17 Billyboy wrote:
It is also not like Trump is reliable, he is tearing up the deals he made last term. Hell he is even insulting the idiot who made those deals. When you can't trust his signature, no way you are trusting his word. Bang, Dead, On The Money. This allows Zelensky to play the cornered victim caught between 2 malevolent super-powers. This gives him the excuse he needs to give up land and save face to some degree with his people. This gives Zelensky the excuse he needs to begin negotiating with Putin. Trump gave Zelensky the platform to state his grievances with Russia/Putin. The psychotherapy session is over. Dr. Trump's hourly rate is sky high so it is time for some action from Zelensky and Putin. Its possible Zelensky and Trump choreographed the circus act in the white house to emphasize how unstable US support is. OTOH, Trump wants to end the war as quickly as possible because plenty of Americans and specifically Republicans are not cool with supporting a war effort for eternity. The only thing that keeps the USA involved is a tangible, well measured return on investment. Trump is weakening Zelensky's position and forcing him to the negotiation table. Trump is also forcing Europe to step in. Over all, Trump has done a nice job representing the interests of the American people. And, his buddies at Fox News are very thankful for the awesome clickbait content he has created.
Search help. There must be doctors/treatments for whatever it is that is eating away your brain.
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On March 03 2025 23:27 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2025 23:24 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On March 03 2025 10:17 Billyboy wrote:
It is also not like Trump is reliable, he is tearing up the deals he made last term. Hell he is even insulting the idiot who made those deals. When you can't trust his signature, no way you are trusting his word. Bang, Dead, On The Money. This allows Zelensky to play the cornered victim caught between 2 malevolent super-powers. This gives him the excuse he needs to give up land and save face to some degree with his people. This gives Zelensky the excuse he needs to begin negotiating with Putin. Trump gave Zelensky the platform to state his grievances with Russia/Putin. The psychotherapy session is over. Dr. Trump's hourly rate is sky high so it is time for some action from Zelensky and Putin. Its possible Zelensky and Trump choreographed the circus act in the white house to emphasize how unstable US support is. OTOH, Trump wants to end the war as quickly as possible because plenty of Americans and specifically Republicans are not cool with supporting a war effort for eternity. The only thing that keeps the USA involved is a tangible, well measured return on investment. Trump is weakening Zelensky's position and forcing him to the negotiation table. Trump is also forcing Europe to step in. Over all, Trump has done a nice job representing the interests of the American people. And, his buddies at Fox News are very thankful for the awesome clickbait content he has created. Search help. There must be doctors/treatments for whatever it is that is eating away your brain.
i hate to break it to you guy ... most adults are liars. Politicians lie even more. and you're getting worked.
Trump has been doing this since 1988.
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EPT
