EPTRusso-Ukrainian War Thread - Page 785
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Sybris
Canada28 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland23816 Posts
On March 02 2025 22:14 Sybris wrote: Zelensky is a clown, you don't go off the cuff in a glorified photo op in the oval office and take on the president lmfao He shouldn’t have bitten, doesn’t make him a clown, just a human. Shouldn’t have been a public event to begin with. That it was, and the way it went seem a calculated setup to do this exact type of ambush. Doesn’t mean Zelensky is blameless here either, he could have just sucked it up. I’m somewhat doubtful any amount of bowing and scraping would have worked out, but hey you gotta suck it up sometimes. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5439 Posts
On March 02 2025 22:51 WombaT wrote: He shouldn’t have bitten, doesn’t make him a clown, just a human. Shouldn’t have been a public event to begin with. That it was, and the way it went seem a calculated setup to do this exact type of ambush. Doesn’t mean Zelensky is blameless here either, he could have just sucked it up. I’m somewhat doubtful any amount of bowing and scraping would have worked out, but hey you gotta suck it up sometimes. I don't think anything would've helped. They were very intent on humiliating him. They even invited Russian state media for the occasion... | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland23816 Posts
On March 02 2025 21:06 ETisME wrote: Ukrainian poll numbers is from here: https://news.gallup.com/poll/653495/half-ukrainians-quick-negotiated-end-war.aspx Gully is a highly respected data research consultancy; ask any researcher or uni professor. This isn't pretend. Ukraine conscription effort wasn't as good as they wished, this is a known fact. Conscription is compulsory, has nothing to do with equipment. they want to lower the age to get more men. "nobody wants their brothers and sisters to die." and even less if they have to go to the frontline to die. My biggest issue with the whole situation, is that this is presented as existential threat for Europe and its values by EU leaders and Biden. So far I think only Macron (respect) has suggested they should consider sending deployments in some form. (not for peace keeping after the peace deal) That's when I would actually respect the EU and admit they aren't just doing a massive political show. now that Trump has pushed the EU to be more active, and we can expect a longer war, maybe it isn't impossible. Last time the proposal was rejected war 2024 Feb, so a year ago. I’m not sure that more broadly that this is how the conflict is presented in terms of messaging. It’s mostly help Ukraine out because it’s the right thing to do, and part ‘hey if Russia subsumed Georgia, the East of Ukraine, then attempted to do so with the rest of Ukraine, what’s to stop them trying similar pushes with former components of the USSR around Europe’s Eastern borders?’ I’m not saying there’s zero hyperbole going, but it’s not the main thrust. That’s me over in the UK anyway, maybe the messaging is different elsewhere in Europe. We’re perhaps on the periphery post Brexit, so I’m not sure how our (general) outlook is reflected in continental Europe. Russia is an irritant, not an existential threat, outside of nuclear war and well if that happens we’re all fucked anyway. We’d rather Russia just stop being dicks. Would be better for everyone involved. Instead Russia would prefer to assassinate defectors on UK soil, alongside all the other fuckery. ‘That's when I would actually respect the EU and admit they aren't just doing a massive political show.’ What else would they do? It’s a political problem, and a tricky one at that. Take any parallel reality where Russia didn’t behave like gigantic assholes, and they’re all better. Not just for everyone else but Russians themselves. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland23816 Posts
On March 02 2025 23:05 maybenexttime wrote: I don't think anything would've helped. They were very intent on humiliating him. They even invited Russian state media for the occasion... My personal read is they weren’t going to give him a reasonable deal to begin with no matter what, but they wanted to goad him so they could subsequently frame it as him/Ukrainians by proxy being ungrateful and unreasonable. I can criticise him for falling into the trap, which I have to a minor degree. Thing is even if he put in an absolutely flawless, top 10 all-time performance of diplomacy I still think he and Ukraine get fucked over anyway. I think for anyone on the fence who isn’t already a religious convert to the MAGA cause, Zelensky comes out better here. I’m not sure how relevant it will be ultimately, but I do think that’s the case. It was an unbelievably nauseating watch, I have a hard time believing, cynical to the contrary as I am these days, that anyone who isn’t a MAGA zealot would consider Trump and Vance’s behaviour favourably. If I am wrong on that, well we’re more fucked than I thought. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21359 Posts
Or it was a set up from the start. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5439 Posts
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Excludos
Norway7950 Posts
On March 02 2025 21:06 ETisME wrote: Ukrainian poll numbers is from here: https://news.gallup.com/poll/653495/half-ukrainians-quick-negotiated-end-war.aspx Gully is a highly respected data research consultancy; ask any researcher or uni professor. I already addressed that, if you had actually read my comment. Literal last sentence: Of course peace is preferred, nobody wants their brothers and sisters to die. But it can't be at any cost and no guarantee The fact that "most people would like the war to end without more bloodshed" is not any kind of the smoking gun you seem to think it is. That doesn't mean they are ready to throw down their weapons and give up. There is no correlation | ||
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Excludos
Norway7950 Posts
On March 02 2025 22:14 Sybris wrote: Zelensky is a clown, you don't go off the cuff in a glorified photo op in the oval office and take on the president lmfao So the clown was the guy who defended himself, not the two morons who decided to suddenly attack him on live TV? Yeah, that makes sense. I also usually cheer for the bully. Zelenskyy did everything right. The effect of this, while diplomacy with Trump have fallen apart (Although that was likely to happen anyways, since Trump refused to give security guarantee), is that Europe is now banding together to provide more support for Ukraine. I don't think for a second Zelenskyy planned this, but the outcome is a master stroke of gaining sympathy and support. Zelenskyy's approval have also, in turn, increased. If embarrassing Zelenskyy so they could push for him to step down was the goal, they failed miserably Meanwhile, Trump's approval have taken a nose dive. He is now again the least liked president of United States, only beaten by himself 4 years prior. | ||
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Manit0u
Poland17189 Posts
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Manit0u
Poland17189 Posts
On March 02 2025 23:21 WombaT wrote: That’s me over in the UK anyway, maybe the messaging is different elsewhere in Europe. We’re perhaps on the periphery post Brexit, so I’m not sure how our (general) outlook is reflected in continental Europe. Russia is an irritant, not an existential threat, outside of nuclear war and well if that happens we’re all fucked anyway. We’d rather Russia just stop being dicks. Would be better for everyone involved. This might seem like that in the UK but the former Soviet republics remember and no one wants it back (maybe with the exception of Belarus and Hungary but it's mostly their leadership, not the general population). The general sentiment in the eastern parts of Europe is that we're all aware that Russia will absolutely not stop at Ukraine. It's Ukraine for now, next are the Baltics (Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia) and then Poland. No one has any illusions about it, it's not a matter of "if" but "when". That's why we do all we can to toughen up and provide as much support for Ukraine as we can. Latvia just recently cut off its power grid from Russia so they can't be pressured with that. I've just been on a trip to Lithuania and the support for Ukraine there is actually pretty overwhelming. Went to a castle/museum and in the jail cell there was the stand of Putin, all the displays on the buses say "Vilnius <3 Ukraine", Ukrainian flags everywhere, even in the hotels the clocks with Moscow time were removed. Countries on the forefront of this know what's up and they're doing all they can to fight this. Edit: Kinda sucks that the big shot callers with real money (Western Europe) didn't get to experience the Soviets so the main fight is left for the little guys as the big boys aren't feeling as threatened. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5439 Posts
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Sybris
Canada28 Posts
On March 03 2025 01:03 Excludos wrote: So the clown was the guy who defended himself, not the two morons who decided to suddenly attack him on live TV? Yeah, that makes sense. I also usually cheer for the bully. Zelenskyy did everything right. The effect of this, while diplomacy with Trump have fallen apart (Although that was likely to happen anyways, since Trump refused to give security guarantee), is that Europe is now banding together to provide more support for Ukraine. I don't think for a second Zelenskyy planned this, but the outcome is a master stroke of gaining sympathy and support. Zelenskyy's approval have also, in turn, increased. If embarrassing Zelenskyy so they could push for him to step down was the goal, they failed miserably Meanwhile, Trump's approval have taken a nose dive. He is now again the least liked president of United States, only beaten by himself 4 years prior. Who cares about polling or media talk, Ukraine needs hard support. Zelensky went there to get something tangible and he failed miserably. After Starmer and Macron did their jobs very well. They won hard concessions, they moved Trump away from a blatant pro Russia position to where he was agreeing to discuss Russian withdrawal from occupied territories and providing a guarantee to European peacekeepers. Macron was the one who convinced him to meet Zelensky. Then he lost his cool after Vance poked him and turned it into a mud slinging match, just poor impulse control and failure in diplomacy. | ||
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Simberto
Germany11330 Posts
On March 03 2025 01:43 maybenexttime wrote: Russia now says the US foreign policy aligns with its own. Doesn't that undermine their whole bullshit justification for invading Ukraine? How is NATO a threat if the US and Russia are buddies? Doublethink is easy here. The US is awesome and they have always been buddies, but Nato is evil and constantly attacks poor Russia. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5439 Posts
On March 03 2025 03:49 Sybris wrote: Who cares about polling or media talk, Ukraine needs hard support. Zelensky went there to get something tangible and he failed miserably. After Starmer and Macron did their jobs very well. They won hard concessions, they moved Trump away from a blatant pro Russia position to where he was agreeing to discuss Russian withdrawal from occupied territories and providing a guarantee to European peacekeepers. Macron was the one who convinced him to meet Zelensky. Then he lost his cool after Vance poked him and turned it into a mud slinging match, just poor impulse control and failure in diplomacy. Yes, from Vance and Trump. | ||
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Billyboy
467 Posts
On March 02 2025 21:06 ETisME wrote: Ukrainian poll numbers is from here: https://news.gallup.com/poll/653495/half-ukrainians-quick-negotiated-end-war.aspx Gully is a highly respected data research consultancy; ask any researcher or uni professor. This isn't pretend. Ukraine conscription effort wasn't as good as they wished, this is a known fact. Conscription is compulsory, has nothing to do with equipment. they want to lower the age to get more men. "nobody wants their brothers and sisters to die." and even less if they have to go to the frontline to die. My biggest issue with the whole situation, is that this is presented as existential threat for Europe and its values by EU leaders and Biden. So far I think only Macron (respect) has suggested they should consider sending deployments in some form. (not for peace keeping after the peace deal) That's when I would actually respect the EU and admit they aren't just doing a massive political show. now that Trump has pushed the EU to be more active, and we can expect a longer war, maybe it isn't impossible. Last time the proposal was rejected war 2024 Feb, so a year ago. You want to be able to equip the men. It is a lever Ukraine is saving so when they get the equipment they will have men to operate it. Clearly given the size of the two countries and the populations you can see that Ukraine needs to not trade 1 for 1 or worse to survive. Russian meat wave style would be disastrous for them. I'm not sure where you are getting your information from but it seems to have kernels of truth but then like really dumb analysis of the info. I assume it is purposeful with how bad the analysis is. | ||
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Excludos
Norway7950 Posts
On March 03 2025 03:49 Sybris wrote: Who cares about polling or media talk, Ukraine needs hard support. Zelensky went there to get something tangible and he failed miserably. After Starmer and Macron did their jobs very well. They won hard concessions, they moved Trump away from a blatant pro Russia position to where he was agreeing to discuss Russian withdrawal from occupied territories and providing a guarantee to European peacekeepers. Macron was the one who convinced him to meet Zelensky. Then he lost his cool after Vance poked him and turned it into a mud slinging match, just poor impulse control and failure in diplomacy. It matters in those areas I mentioned: EU is now banding together to form more support than previously. Zelenskyy was never leaving US with a peace deal without security guarantee. It also matters in that it shows Zelenskyy represents the will of his people, and gets stronger support for it. Putin and Trump was playing around with trying to make Zelenskyy step down, knowing a weaker leader would be easier to handle, and strong support makes that much more difficult. Had Zelenskyy sat there and meekly taken it, he would have lost support, and he would still have left the US without a deal. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland23816 Posts
On March 03 2025 03:49 Sybris wrote: Bro who cares about polling or media talk. Zelensky went there to get something tangible and he failed miserably. After Starmer and Macron did their jobs very well. They won hard concessions, they moved Trump away from a blatant pro Russia position to where he was agreeing to discuss Russian withdrawal from occupied territories and providing a guarantee to European peacekeepers. Macron was the one who convinced him to meet Zelensky. Then he lost his cool after Vance poked him and turned it into a mud slinging match, just poor impulse control and failure in diplomacy. Starmer and Macron haven’t got that much shit either, there’s not a huge amount that’s sorted, tangible, laid out in stone, really, yet. I think they’ve played it pretty well, they’ve done the groundwork and made Trump more receptive, ultimately the ball is still in his court. I say Trump rather than ‘the US’ rather deliberately here. It’s all about stroking the man’s ego, not the state. For all that groundwork, it can be seemingly undone by cornering Zelensky and demanding the peasant be more grateful, in front of the world’s media. As I said, Zelensky should have sucked it up, we all know this is how the Trump regime operates. It’s not a serious regime, it doesn’t operate seriously, and one has to address it accordingly. It’s a colossal failure for US diplomacy, not the other way around. I’ll draw a distinction here between US goals and the US’ diplomacy. The US is within its rights to tell Ukraine to fuck off, not our problem. The problem here is they want to have their cake and eat it, and it’s obviously bullshit. They basically ambushed Zelensky here, in public view and in such a fashion that reflects badly on them. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5439 Posts
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Biff The Understudy
France7809 Posts
He was never going to get support, help or anything good from Trump. And Trump was basically trying to both force him to capitulate and extorcate Ukraine resources. I don’t know. Maybe he got emotional and just couldn’t take it anymore, but i read the situation of him having taken a calculated position and gotten exactly what he wanted. He knows perfectly that Trump is not someone he can talk to, and that it’s not about him. | ||
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