EPTGiving away nukes in 1994 for a virtual guarantees was a mistake, now it is very obvious
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread - Page 653
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Dav1oN
Ukraine3164 Posts
Giving away nukes in 1994 for a virtual guarantees was a mistake, now it is very obvious | ||
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SC-Shield
Bulgaria837 Posts
On February 17 2024 20:10 Dav1oN wrote: "The most" is still not enough to impact somehow significantly (unless the goal is a stalemate which is hard to believe in) it is almost a third year of the war and seeing all those political crap in the US just does not help to feel optimism. Don't think it needs any explanations Giving away nukes in 1994 for a virtual guarantees was a mistake, now it is very obvious Well, maybe call your countrymen back in Ukraine. I hear Ukrainians everyday here, young and healthy Ukrainians who decided not to fight. Instead, you point fingers at those who help you. On a different topic, woman pays tribute to Navalny and speaks against Russian regime passionately: | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22132 Posts
On February 17 2024 20:22 SC-Shield wrote: Edit: fuck it, not worth arguing with assholes on the internet.Well, maybe call your countrymen back in Ukraine. I hear Ukrainians everyday here, young and healthy Ukrainians who decided not to fight. Instead, you point fingers at those who help you. | ||
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SC-Shield
Bulgaria837 Posts
On February 17 2024 20:52 Gorsameth wrote: Edit: fuck it, not worth arguing with assholes on the internet. What's there to argue about? I'm from Eastern Europe and I'm more at risk than your far away country from Russia. Still, we can't send army to Ukraine or it'll be a World War 3. The whole European Union and US are helping Ukraine and this guy complains. NATO can't send all weapons for strategic reasons as we need to defend ourselves too. Can we send more? I don't know, ask NATO and other generals. I just don't like when someone is ungrateful, I understand he is affected by war but what else can be done...? Do you have suggestions instead of personal insults like a little child? | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5761 Posts
On February 17 2024 19:49 SC-Shield wrote: US helps Ukraine the most, I don't understand "nothing significant will come up". True, republicans aren't fond of Ukraine but your best hope is that Trump doesn't win. I'm guessing Biden's executive power is enough to do a lot of things without congress in Navalny's case. If you count the EU as individual countries, then yes. If you count it as one block, then no, the EU's aid for Ukraine is about double that of the US. Not saying it shouldn't be like that. This is a European war. The US has no obligation to help and their help is appreciated. I just wanted to point out that Europe does help Ukraine a lot. On February 17 2024 20:57 SC-Shield wrote: What's there to argue about? I'm from Eastern Europe and I'm more at risk than your far away country from Russia. Still, we can't send army to Ukraine or it'll be a World War 3. The whole European Union and US are helping Ukraine and this guy complains. NATO can't send all weapons for strategic reasons as we need to defend ourselves too. Can we send more? I don't know, ask NATO and other generals. I just don't like when someone is ungrateful, I understand he is affected by war but what else can be done...? Do you have suggestions instead of personal insults like a little child? Have you been living under a rock? The US is not sending crucial aid because Republican traitors are blocking it. People are dying, the situation at the front is deteriorating. Ukraine just lost a crucial stronghold. All because the Republicans want put the orange clown in the White House so that he can turn their country into a dictatorship. I'm sure Dav1oN is grateful for the help the West has provided. He's just bitter people are unnecessarily dying because of cynical politicians. | ||
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SC-Shield
Bulgaria837 Posts
On February 17 2024 22:40 maybenexttime wrote: If you count the EU as individual countries, then yes. If you count it as one block, then no, the EU's aid for Ukraine is about double that of the US. Not saying it shouldn't be like that. This is a European war. The US has no obligation to help and their help is appreciated. I just wanted to point out that Europe does help Ukraine a lot. Have you been living under a rock? The US is not sending crucial aid because Republican traitors are blocking it. People are dying, the situation at the front is deteriorating. Ukraine just lost a crucial stronghold. All because the Republicans want put the orange clown in the White House so that he can turn their country into a dictatorship. I'm sure Dav1oN is grateful for the help the West has provided. He's just bitter people are unnecessarily dying because of cynical politicians. I didn't like Trump before 2016 and I don't like him even a bit more now. However, US is a sovereign nation and it's up to them to help and to decide by how much. Of course, if they don't help or don't help enough that would likely be a mistake of historical significance and no one doubts that. On the other hand, US isn't the only country the world. When one country "slacks", there are always other there to convince to help and that should be the effort when/if US is politically blocked. Also, I just checked your comment about EU helping more. Yes, it's true but it seems it's mostly financially as a block: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://cdn.statcdn.com/Infographic/images/normal/28489.jpeg) I know US's help is significant and they can afford a lot more financially and militarily, but maybe military help from other countries should step up as well if there are supplies. For example, Hungary doesn't help and I don't think I've heard about Turkey helping much either (close ties with Russia allegedly), maybe effort should be put to convince them to help more as well as other countries (mine included). Finally, we should take into account that even within EU there are opposition or even ruling parties which don't want to help Ukraine too much for various reasons. For example, our opposition parties are pro-Russian but if there are such in other EU countries, perhaps we should do more as citizens to convince our countrymen to help more. | ||
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Excludos
Norway8242 Posts
On February 17 2024 19:46 Dav1oN wrote: The US is stuck with political masturbation 4 months straight, nothing significant will come up. Meanwhile we pay the price with lives I'm pretty drunk ringt now, so apologize I'd I can't articulate correctly, but want you to know I agree 100%. The right side in US is paid off by Russia. It's straight up traitorship. And you're paying the price for it. It's fucking distopian. Human lives should be worth more than this | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5761 Posts
On February 17 2024 23:44 SC-Shield wrote: I didn't like Trump before 2016 and I don't like him even a bit more now. However, US is a sovereign nation and it's up to them to help and to decide by how much. Of course, if they don't help or don't help enough that would likely be a mistake of historical significance and no one doubts that. On the other hand, US isn't the only country the world. When one country "slacks", there are always other there to convince to help and that should be the effort when/if US is politically blocked. Also, I just checked your comment about EU helping more. Yes, it's true but it seems it's mostly financially as a block: + Show Spoiler + I know US's help is significant and they can afford a lot more financially and militarily, but maybe military help from other countries should step up as well if there are supplies. For example, Hungary doesn't help and I don't think I've heard about Turkey helping much either (close ties with Russia allegedly), maybe effort should be put to convince them to help more as well as other countries (mine included). Finally, we should take into account that even within EU there are opposition or even ruling parties which don't want to help Ukraine too much for various reasons. For example, our opposition parties are pro-Russian but if there are such in other EU countries, perhaps we should do more as citizens to convince our countrymen to help more. I can't find a more up-to-date chart, but it's probably more or less the same. The EU just slightly behind the US in terms of military aid. If you include other European NATO members (mainly the UK), we're a bit ahead. In terms of non-military aid, it's not even a contest. Bulgaria has helped a lot, mostly behind the scenes because of the vatnik president (?), IIRC. According to Ukraine, your country's help was especially crucial in the first months of the war. Turkey could definitely do more, although blocking the Bosporus was a game changer. Russia lost something like 30% of their fleet and thanks to Turkey, they can't replace those ships. | ||
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Sent.
Poland9284 Posts
On February 18 2024 01:44 Excludos wrote: I'm pretty drunk ringt now, so apologize I'd I can't articulate correctly, but want you to know I agree 100%. The right side in US is paid off by Russia. It's straight up traitorship. And you're paying the price for it. It's fucking distopian. Human lives should be worth more than this "Paid off by Russia" implies it's just politicians but unfortunately I think there's a large group of voters on the right side who are being useful idiots for Russia for free. If their leaders told them they're wrong, they'd just vote for some other idiot magnet. This applies to tankies too but they rarely form a significant voter group. | ||
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SC-Shield
Bulgaria837 Posts
Also our defence minister is called Tagarev. Opposition here is so mad at his help for Ukraine that they renamed him to "Tagarenko" (Ukrainian name) :D | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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iPlaY.NettleS
Australia4393 Posts
On February 17 2024 20:22 SC-Shield wrote: Well, maybe call your countrymen back in Ukraine. I hear Ukrainians everyday here, young and healthy Ukrainians who decided not to fight. Instead, you point fingers at those who help you. Easy to say when you are not in their shoes.If I was I wouldn't be prepared to die in a pointless war personally.Sending money to the most corrupt country in Europe is also not a great idea, It's been a total waste. Russia just took Avdiivka in the East. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-68322527 | ||
KwarK
United States43677 Posts
On February 18 2024 10:50 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: Easy to say when you are not in their shoes.If I was I wouldn't be prepared to die in a pointless war personally.Sending money to the most corrupt country in Europe is also not a great idea, It's been a total waste. Russia just took Avdiivka in the East. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-68322527 How is it pointless? It’s literally for the fate of their country, generations of Ukrainian children may be condemned or saved depending on the outcome. Russia has, historically speaking, been very bad to Ukrainian people. Multiple genocides, for example the Crimean Tatars that were rounded up and put on cattle trains heading east to camps. Ukrainian conscripts send to fight in Russian wars. Chernobyl. This next wave of Russian totalitarian comes with an explicit goal of the eradication of the Ukrainian cultural identity so that Ukraine no longer exists and the land can be fully and permanently Russified. There are few worthier national causes that people could fight for. Ukrainian resistance in this battle for their nation is more just than any recent war I can think of. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15742 Posts
On February 17 2024 20:10 Dav1oN wrote: "The most" is still not enough to impact somehow significantly (unless the goal is a stalemate which is hard to believe in) it is almost a third year of the war and seeing all those political crap in the US just does not help to feel optimism. Don't think it needs any explanations Giving away nukes in 1994 for a virtual guarantees was a mistake, now it is very obvious Path to world peace is to give every nation at least 1 nuke. The problem with the world right now is that MAD does not extend to enough people. There are enough unclaimed nuclear power MAD territories that we will be in perpetual war until all of the planet has a MAD relationship with a nuclear power. | ||
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KwarK
United States43677 Posts
On February 18 2024 15:47 Mohdoo wrote: Path to world peace is to give every nation at least 1 nuke. The problem with the world right now is that MAD does not extend to enough people. There are enough unclaimed nuclear power MAD territories that we will be in perpetual war until all of the planet has a MAD relationship with a nuclear power. When do you use the nuke in this scenario? When they fund fake separatist movements? When they send little green men to fake a separatist revolt? When they move the regular army in behind them to annex Crimea? Nuclear deterrence is only good for large scale existential conflicts. You still need to be able to fight and win scenarios that you wouldn’t nuke someone over. | ||
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zeo
Serbia6336 Posts
On February 18 2024 10:50 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: Easy to say when you are not in their shoes.If I was I wouldn't be prepared to die in a pointless war personally.Sending money to the most corrupt country in Europe is also not a great idea, It's been a total waste. Russia just took Avdiivka in the East. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-68322527 There are still pockets of soldiers inside the town that were abandoned but yeah, seems like they fled from the coke plant yesterday too. The entire town is now back under the control of the people of the Donbass and whats more important artillery is now further away from the civilian population in Donetsk. This will not completely stop the shelling of civilians, the Kiev government still has a lot of weapons that can reach them so the work is far from finished. With a day or two passing since the events we are now getting a lot of photo and video from inside Avdeevka and we can get a clearer picture of the disaster that unfolded. Dead AFU and POWs all over the town which I'm obviously not going to post here and endless drone footage of groups of 5-6 AFU getting drone bombed throughout the day and night. Can't really lay the blame on Syrsky but you can't help but wonder if he deliberately sent in Azov to get obliterated inside Avdeevka trying to counterattack, politically they are a big problem for Zelensky. Zaluzhny bailed right before this but most of the critical mistakes made were under his watch | ||
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SC-Shield
Bulgaria837 Posts
On February 18 2024 10:59 KwarK wrote: How is it pointless? It’s literally for the fate of their country, generations of Ukrainian children may be condemned or saved depending on the outcome. Russia has, historically speaking, been very bad to Ukrainian people. Multiple genocides, for example the Crimean Tatars that were rounded up and put on cattle trains heading east to camps. Ukrainian conscripts send to fight in Russian wars. Chernobyl. This next wave of Russian totalitarian comes with an explicit goal of the eradication of the Ukrainian cultural identity so that Ukraine no longer exists and the land can be fully and permanently Russified. There are few worthier national causes that people could fight for. Ukrainian resistance in this battle for their nation is more just than any recent war I can think of. Absolutely. Let me remind Dutch poster from a few posts back, maybe he became a bit soft throughout years of peace, that in the past defending your country was considered national pride. For example, Vasil Levski is a national hero here and he revolted against Ottomans, Hristo Botev and many, many more. This was the norm, this was expected 1-2 centuries ago to defend your country because if you don't, no one else will. In fact, it was worse in the past because Great Powers were happy to get some country crushed (as you can read about Balkans vs Ottomans in that specific case). So it was done against all odds, against wishes of these Great Powers. What could be outrageous is if you send Ukrainians against their will to the front. No, it needs to be a conscious decision. I'm pretty sure Ukrainian leadership was at some point hinting at need of further mobilisation or recruitment in numbers of 0.5 million people if I remember right, so there is definitely need for that. It's tragic to send people to war to defend their country but let's remember who started it. Russians expected this to last "3 days" because they didn't expect Ukrainians to fight. | ||
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smmpanel
2 Posts
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Simberto
Germany11774 Posts
On February 18 2024 18:31 zeo wrote: There are still pockets of soldiers inside the town that were abandoned but yeah, seems like they fled from the coke plant yesterday too. The entire town is now back under the control of the people of the Donbass and whats more important artillery is now further away from the civilian population in Donetsk. This will not completely stop the shelling of civilians, the Kiev government still has a lot of weapons that can reach them so the work is far from finished. I gotta say, it is kind of amazing just how onesided you manage to spin literally everything in favor of the invaders. Literally every word you use is chosen from that perspective. The truth is that it is now under control of the Russian invaders, not "The people of the Donbass". And the shelling of civilians has very prominently been done by those same Russian invaders, using missiles to hit all of Ukraine. In fact, i can't really find anything about that so-called "shelling of civilians" by the "Kiev government" that you talk about. | ||
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Sadist
United States7326 Posts
On February 18 2024 15:47 Mohdoo wrote: Path to world peace is to give every nation at least 1 nuke. The problem with the world right now is that MAD does not extend to enough people. There are enough unclaimed nuclear power MAD territories that we will be in perpetual war until all of the planet has a MAD relationship with a nuclear power. 1 Nuke isnt enough for MAD and we have crazy dictators/theocracy's out there. Hard pass. | ||
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