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NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
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No one in power actually wants that. The whole point of NATO is to not get pulled into wars, deciding to voluntarily put that line in/near an active warzone goes against that very principle.
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On November 11 2023 23:46 Simberto wrote:
Yeah, i also don't think this counts as "winning". The best result Ukraine can achieve is a stalemate where no one has ships in the black sea. Which is still impressive, of course. But to me, "winning" at sea means that you have your ships at sea and the other side doesn't.
I think what this does show is that at medium range, a modern-ish but not too modern fleet is pretty vulnerable to shore-based attacks. Which, i am pretty sure, is another aspect of this war that is being closely watched by militaries around the world.
Unironically its a throwback to old style shore defences against ships. Land based canon had more range, more accuracy, and cheaper than ship based variants. Battleships changed the dynamics but now land based missiles have shifted it back. GPS glide munitions means that static emplacements are still out but hideing a few hundred shoot and scoot HIMARS leaves a pretty heavy standoff distance that the black sea just doesn't have.
What I think is really interesting is seeing this space exploited by Ukraine's missiles being exploited by NATO special forces and Iranian speed boat raids on Crimea. I think a lot of people were expecting to see the Russians doing these kind of coastal raids but russia seems to have never developed that kind of brown water capability.
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New reporting on the Nord Stream pipeline attack furthers the assessment that the attack was a Ukrainian operation.
Ukrainian military officer coordinated Nord Stream pipeline attack
A senior Ukrainian military officer with deep ties to the country’s intelligence services played a central role in the bombing of the Nord Stream natural gas pipeline last year, according to officials in Ukraine and elsewhere in Europe, as well as other people knowledgeable about the details of the covert operation.
The officer’s role provides the most direct evidence to date tying Ukraine’s military and security leadership to a controversial act of sabotage that has spawned multiple criminal investigations and that U.S. and Western officials have called a dangerous attack on Europe’s energy infrastructure.
Roman Chervinsky, a decorated 48-year-old colonel who served in Ukraine’s Special Operations Forces, was the “coordinator” of the Nord Stream operation, people familiar with his role said, managing logistics and support for a six-person team that rented a sailboat under false identities and used deep-sea diving equipment to place explosive charges on the gas pipelines. On Sept. 26, 2022, three explosions caused massive leaks on the Nord Stream 1 and 2 pipelines, which run from Russia to Germany under the Baltic Sea. The attack left only one of the four gas links in the network intact as winter approached.
Chervinsky did not act alone and he did not plan the operation, according to the people familiar with his role, which has not been previously reported. The officer took orders from more senior Ukrainian officials, who ultimately reported to Gen. Valery Zaluzhny, Ukraine’s highest-ranking military officer, said people familiar with how the operation was carried out. They spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss sensitive details about the bombing, which has strained diplomatic relations with Ukraine and drawn objections from U.S. officials.
www.washingtonpost.com
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I initially thought that the Kherson river crossings were just raids to fix troops away from the front. Mostly because you need to push out about 20-25 km to get a ponton bridge away from artillery range. Basically impossible to do on foot or with very limited vehicle support. It also seemed that the Russians thought the same thing.
Intrestingly enough 10km from the eastern shore there is a small desert (Oleshky sands) about 15km in diameter. I think everyone would agree that positioning heavy units like artillery or airdefence would be a bit problematic in todays warfare. So maybe Ukraine only needs to clear about another 5km and one village in order to establish a beachhead for mechanized divisions.
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United States43483 Posts
On November 12 2023 04:25 GreenHorizons wrote:New reporting on the Nord Stream pipeline attack furthers the assessment that the attack was a Ukrainian operation. Show nested quote +Ukrainian military officer coordinated Nord Stream pipeline attack
A senior Ukrainian military officer with deep ties to the country’s intelligence services played a central role in the bombing of the Nord Stream natural gas pipeline last year, according to officials in Ukraine and elsewhere in Europe, as well as other people knowledgeable about the details of the covert operation.
The officer’s role provides the most direct evidence to date tying Ukraine’s military and security leadership to a controversial act of sabotage that has spawned multiple criminal investigations and that U.S. and Western officials have called a dangerous attack on Europe’s energy infrastructure.
Roman Chervinsky, a decorated 48-year-old colonel who served in Ukraine’s Special Operations Forces, was the “coordinator” of the Nord Stream operation, people familiar with his role said, managing logistics and support for a six-person team that rented a sailboat under false identities and used deep-sea diving equipment to place explosive charges on the gas pipelines. On Sept. 26, 2022, three explosions caused massive leaks on the Nord Stream 1 and 2 pipelines, which run from Russia to Germany under the Baltic Sea. The attack left only one of the four gas links in the network intact as winter approached.
Chervinsky did not act alone and he did not plan the operation, according to the people familiar with his role, which has not been previously reported. The officer took orders from more senior Ukrainian officials, who ultimately reported to Gen. Valery Zaluzhny, Ukraine’s highest-ranking military officer, said people familiar with how the operation was carried out. They spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss sensitive details about the bombing, which has strained diplomatic relations with Ukraine and drawn objections from U.S. officials. www.washingtonpost.com
“Trust me bro” level reporting.
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On November 12 2023 04:25 GreenHorizons wrote:New reporting on the Nord Stream pipeline attack furthers the assessment that the attack was a Ukrainian operation. Show nested quote +Ukrainian military officer coordinated Nord Stream pipeline attack
A senior Ukrainian military officer with deep ties to the country’s intelligence services played a central role in the bombing of the Nord Stream natural gas pipeline last year, according to officials in Ukraine and elsewhere in Europe, as well as other people knowledgeable about the details of the covert operation.
The officer’s role provides the most direct evidence to date tying Ukraine’s military and security leadership to a controversial act of sabotage that has spawned multiple criminal investigations and that U.S. and Western officials have called a dangerous attack on Europe’s energy infrastructure.
Roman Chervinsky, a decorated 48-year-old colonel who served in Ukraine’s Special Operations Forces, was the “coordinator” of the Nord Stream operation, people familiar with his role said, managing logistics and support for a six-person team that rented a sailboat under false identities and used deep-sea diving equipment to place explosive charges on the gas pipelines. On Sept. 26, 2022, three explosions caused massive leaks on the Nord Stream 1 and 2 pipelines, which run from Russia to Germany under the Baltic Sea. The attack left only one of the four gas links in the network intact as winter approached.
Chervinsky did not act alone and he did not plan the operation, according to the people familiar with his role, which has not been previously reported. The officer took orders from more senior Ukrainian officials, who ultimately reported to Gen. Valery Zaluzhny, Ukraine’s highest-ranking military officer, said people familiar with how the operation was carried out. They spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss sensitive details about the bombing, which has strained diplomatic relations with Ukraine and drawn objections from U.S. officials. www.washingtonpost.com
And yet again, it's important to distinguish what is a credible source or not. Washington post is only on lvl 3 out of 5 on the trustworthiness scale. They repeatedly post false articles. Thus, to trust anything written by them, it needs to be backed up by a third party source that isn't themselves, or evidence that can be verified, which they have failed to do on every single one of their nord stream articles.
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On November 12 2023 20:47 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2023 04:25 GreenHorizons wrote:New reporting on the Nord Stream pipeline attack furthers the assessment that the attack was a Ukrainian operation. Ukrainian military officer coordinated Nord Stream pipeline attack
A senior Ukrainian military officer with deep ties to the country’s intelligence services played a central role in the bombing of the Nord Stream natural gas pipeline last year, according to officials in Ukraine and elsewhere in Europe, as well as other people knowledgeable about the details of the covert operation.
The officer’s role provides the most direct evidence to date tying Ukraine’s military and security leadership to a controversial act of sabotage that has spawned multiple criminal investigations and that U.S. and Western officials have called a dangerous attack on Europe’s energy infrastructure.
Roman Chervinsky, a decorated 48-year-old colonel who served in Ukraine’s Special Operations Forces, was the “coordinator” of the Nord Stream operation, people familiar with his role said, managing logistics and support for a six-person team that rented a sailboat under false identities and used deep-sea diving equipment to place explosive charges on the gas pipelines. On Sept. 26, 2022, three explosions caused massive leaks on the Nord Stream 1 and 2 pipelines, which run from Russia to Germany under the Baltic Sea. The attack left only one of the four gas links in the network intact as winter approached.
Chervinsky did not act alone and he did not plan the operation, according to the people familiar with his role, which has not been previously reported. The officer took orders from more senior Ukrainian officials, who ultimately reported to Gen. Valery Zaluzhny, Ukraine’s highest-ranking military officer, said people familiar with how the operation was carried out. They spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss sensitive details about the bombing, which has strained diplomatic relations with Ukraine and drawn objections from U.S. officials. www.washingtonpost.com And yet again, it's important to distinguish what is a credible source or not. Washington post is only on lvl 3 out of 5 on the trustworthiness scale. They repeatedly post false articles. Thus, to trust anything written by them, it needs to be backed up by a third party source that isn't themselves, or evidence that can be verified, which they have failed to do on every single one of their nord stream articles.
Washington Post no longer credible?
What site lists this 3 out of 5 trustworthiness rating?
At least we can still rely on CNN right?
What is happening here is the media throwing Zelensky under the bus because they know he and the Ukraine war is a lost cause.Public opinion turned months ago, the money tap is being switched off, it's near the end for Zelensky.
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On November 12 2023 23:03 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2023 20:47 Excludos wrote:On November 12 2023 04:25 GreenHorizons wrote:New reporting on the Nord Stream pipeline attack furthers the assessment that the attack was a Ukrainian operation. Ukrainian military officer coordinated Nord Stream pipeline attack
A senior Ukrainian military officer with deep ties to the country’s intelligence services played a central role in the bombing of the Nord Stream natural gas pipeline last year, according to officials in Ukraine and elsewhere in Europe, as well as other people knowledgeable about the details of the covert operation.
The officer’s role provides the most direct evidence to date tying Ukraine’s military and security leadership to a controversial act of sabotage that has spawned multiple criminal investigations and that U.S. and Western officials have called a dangerous attack on Europe’s energy infrastructure.
Roman Chervinsky, a decorated 48-year-old colonel who served in Ukraine’s Special Operations Forces, was the “coordinator” of the Nord Stream operation, people familiar with his role said, managing logistics and support for a six-person team that rented a sailboat under false identities and used deep-sea diving equipment to place explosive charges on the gas pipelines. On Sept. 26, 2022, three explosions caused massive leaks on the Nord Stream 1 and 2 pipelines, which run from Russia to Germany under the Baltic Sea. The attack left only one of the four gas links in the network intact as winter approached.
Chervinsky did not act alone and he did not plan the operation, according to the people familiar with his role, which has not been previously reported. The officer took orders from more senior Ukrainian officials, who ultimately reported to Gen. Valery Zaluzhny, Ukraine’s highest-ranking military officer, said people familiar with how the operation was carried out. They spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss sensitive details about the bombing, which has strained diplomatic relations with Ukraine and drawn objections from U.S. officials. www.washingtonpost.com And yet again, it's important to distinguish what is a credible source or not. Washington post is only on lvl 3 out of 5 on the trustworthiness scale. They repeatedly post false articles. Thus, to trust anything written by them, it needs to be backed up by a third party source that isn't themselves, or evidence that can be verified, which they have failed to do on every single one of their nord stream articles. Washington Post no longer credible? What site lists this 3 out of 5 trustworthiness rating? At least we can still rely on CNN right? What is happening here is the media throwing Zelensky under the bus because they know he and the Ukraine war is a lost cause.Public opinion turned months ago, the money tap is being switched off, it's near the end for Zelensky.
Bold claims, how is it a lost cause exactly?
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On November 12 2023 20:47 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2023 04:25 GreenHorizons wrote:New reporting on the Nord Stream pipeline attack furthers the assessment that the attack was a Ukrainian operation. Ukrainian military officer coordinated Nord Stream pipeline attack
A senior Ukrainian military officer with deep ties to the country’s intelligence services played a central role in the bombing of the Nord Stream natural gas pipeline last year, according to officials in Ukraine and elsewhere in Europe, as well as other people knowledgeable about the details of the covert operation.
The officer’s role provides the most direct evidence to date tying Ukraine’s military and security leadership to a controversial act of sabotage that has spawned multiple criminal investigations and that U.S. and Western officials have called a dangerous attack on Europe’s energy infrastructure.
Roman Chervinsky, a decorated 48-year-old colonel who served in Ukraine’s Special Operations Forces, was the “coordinator” of the Nord Stream operation, people familiar with his role said, managing logistics and support for a six-person team that rented a sailboat under false identities and used deep-sea diving equipment to place explosive charges on the gas pipelines. On Sept. 26, 2022, three explosions caused massive leaks on the Nord Stream 1 and 2 pipelines, which run from Russia to Germany under the Baltic Sea. The attack left only one of the four gas links in the network intact as winter approached.
Chervinsky did not act alone and he did not plan the operation, according to the people familiar with his role, which has not been previously reported. The officer took orders from more senior Ukrainian officials, who ultimately reported to Gen. Valery Zaluzhny, Ukraine’s highest-ranking military officer, said people familiar with how the operation was carried out. They spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss sensitive details about the bombing, which has strained diplomatic relations with Ukraine and drawn objections from U.S. officials. www.washingtonpost.com And yet again, it's important to distinguish what is a credible source or not. Washington post is only on lvl 3 out of 5 on the trustworthiness scale. They repeatedly post false articles. Thus, to trust anything written by them, it needs to be backed up by a third party source that isn't themselves, or evidence that can be verified, which they have failed to do on every single one of their nord stream articles.
"Oh btw did you all see that screenshot of a pindrop on Google maps? Crazy how the people I don't like lost =RANDBETWEEN(100,10000) personal and =RANDBETWEEN(1,100) vehicles... oh wait the account created three days ago updated their post now its 9100 troops and 50 tanks destroyed, that was an honest mistake  "
Crazy how sources are only important when its something you don't want to believe is real.
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On November 13 2023 02:54 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2023 20:47 Excludos wrote:On November 12 2023 04:25 GreenHorizons wrote:New reporting on the Nord Stream pipeline attack furthers the assessment that the attack was a Ukrainian operation. Ukrainian military officer coordinated Nord Stream pipeline attack
A senior Ukrainian military officer with deep ties to the country’s intelligence services played a central role in the bombing of the Nord Stream natural gas pipeline last year, according to officials in Ukraine and elsewhere in Europe, as well as other people knowledgeable about the details of the covert operation.
The officer’s role provides the most direct evidence to date tying Ukraine’s military and security leadership to a controversial act of sabotage that has spawned multiple criminal investigations and that U.S. and Western officials have called a dangerous attack on Europe’s energy infrastructure.
Roman Chervinsky, a decorated 48-year-old colonel who served in Ukraine’s Special Operations Forces, was the “coordinator” of the Nord Stream operation, people familiar with his role said, managing logistics and support for a six-person team that rented a sailboat under false identities and used deep-sea diving equipment to place explosive charges on the gas pipelines. On Sept. 26, 2022, three explosions caused massive leaks on the Nord Stream 1 and 2 pipelines, which run from Russia to Germany under the Baltic Sea. The attack left only one of the four gas links in the network intact as winter approached.
Chervinsky did not act alone and he did not plan the operation, according to the people familiar with his role, which has not been previously reported. The officer took orders from more senior Ukrainian officials, who ultimately reported to Gen. Valery Zaluzhny, Ukraine’s highest-ranking military officer, said people familiar with how the operation was carried out. They spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss sensitive details about the bombing, which has strained diplomatic relations with Ukraine and drawn objections from U.S. officials. www.washingtonpost.com And yet again, it's important to distinguish what is a credible source or not. Washington post is only on lvl 3 out of 5 on the trustworthiness scale. They repeatedly post false articles. Thus, to trust anything written by them, it needs to be backed up by a third party source that isn't themselves, or evidence that can be verified, which they have failed to do on every single one of their nord stream articles. "Oh btw did you all see that screenshot of a pindrop on Google maps? Crazy how the people I don't like lost =RANDBETWEEN(100,10000) personal and =RANDBETWEEN(1,100) vehicles... oh wait the account created three days ago updated their post now its 9100 troops and 50 tanks destroyed, that was an honest mistake " Crazy how sources are only important when its something you don't want to believe is real.
nice strawman
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On November 13 2023 02:54 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2023 20:47 Excludos wrote:On November 12 2023 04:25 GreenHorizons wrote:New reporting on the Nord Stream pipeline attack furthers the assessment that the attack was a Ukrainian operation. Ukrainian military officer coordinated Nord Stream pipeline attack
A senior Ukrainian military officer with deep ties to the country’s intelligence services played a central role in the bombing of the Nord Stream natural gas pipeline last year, according to officials in Ukraine and elsewhere in Europe, as well as other people knowledgeable about the details of the covert operation.
The officer’s role provides the most direct evidence to date tying Ukraine’s military and security leadership to a controversial act of sabotage that has spawned multiple criminal investigations and that U.S. and Western officials have called a dangerous attack on Europe’s energy infrastructure.
Roman Chervinsky, a decorated 48-year-old colonel who served in Ukraine’s Special Operations Forces, was the “coordinator” of the Nord Stream operation, people familiar with his role said, managing logistics and support for a six-person team that rented a sailboat under false identities and used deep-sea diving equipment to place explosive charges on the gas pipelines. On Sept. 26, 2022, three explosions caused massive leaks on the Nord Stream 1 and 2 pipelines, which run from Russia to Germany under the Baltic Sea. The attack left only one of the four gas links in the network intact as winter approached.
Chervinsky did not act alone and he did not plan the operation, according to the people familiar with his role, which has not been previously reported. The officer took orders from more senior Ukrainian officials, who ultimately reported to Gen. Valery Zaluzhny, Ukraine’s highest-ranking military officer, said people familiar with how the operation was carried out. They spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss sensitive details about the bombing, which has strained diplomatic relations with Ukraine and drawn objections from U.S. officials. www.washingtonpost.com And yet again, it's important to distinguish what is a credible source or not. Washington post is only on lvl 3 out of 5 on the trustworthiness scale. They repeatedly post false articles. Thus, to trust anything written by them, it needs to be backed up by a third party source that isn't themselves, or evidence that can be verified, which they have failed to do on every single one of their nord stream articles. "Oh btw did you all see that screenshot of a pindrop on Google maps? Crazy how the people I don't like lost =RANDBETWEEN(100,10000) personal and =RANDBETWEEN(1,100) vehicles... oh wait the account created three days ago updated their post now its 9100 troops and 50 tanks destroyed, that was an honest mistake " Crazy how sources are only important when its something you don't want to believe is real.
Pot meet kettle
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On November 12 2023 23:03 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2023 20:47 Excludos wrote:On November 12 2023 04:25 GreenHorizons wrote:New reporting on the Nord Stream pipeline attack furthers the assessment that the attack was a Ukrainian operation. Ukrainian military officer coordinated Nord Stream pipeline attack
A senior Ukrainian military officer with deep ties to the country’s intelligence services played a central role in the bombing of the Nord Stream natural gas pipeline last year, according to officials in Ukraine and elsewhere in Europe, as well as other people knowledgeable about the details of the covert operation.
The officer’s role provides the most direct evidence to date tying Ukraine’s military and security leadership to a controversial act of sabotage that has spawned multiple criminal investigations and that U.S. and Western officials have called a dangerous attack on Europe’s energy infrastructure.
Roman Chervinsky, a decorated 48-year-old colonel who served in Ukraine’s Special Operations Forces, was the “coordinator” of the Nord Stream operation, people familiar with his role said, managing logistics and support for a six-person team that rented a sailboat under false identities and used deep-sea diving equipment to place explosive charges on the gas pipelines. On Sept. 26, 2022, three explosions caused massive leaks on the Nord Stream 1 and 2 pipelines, which run from Russia to Germany under the Baltic Sea. The attack left only one of the four gas links in the network intact as winter approached.
Chervinsky did not act alone and he did not plan the operation, according to the people familiar with his role, which has not been previously reported. The officer took orders from more senior Ukrainian officials, who ultimately reported to Gen. Valery Zaluzhny, Ukraine’s highest-ranking military officer, said people familiar with how the operation was carried out. They spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss sensitive details about the bombing, which has strained diplomatic relations with Ukraine and drawn objections from U.S. officials. www.washingtonpost.com And yet again, it's important to distinguish what is a credible source or not. Washington post is only on lvl 3 out of 5 on the trustworthiness scale. They repeatedly post false articles. Thus, to trust anything written by them, it needs to be backed up by a third party source that isn't themselves, or evidence that can be verified, which they have failed to do on every single one of their nord stream articles. Washington Post no longer credible? What site lists this 3 out of 5 trustworthiness rating? At least we can still rely on CNN right? What is happening here is the media throwing Zelensky under the bus because they know he and the Ukraine war is a lost cause.Public opinion turned months ago, the money tap is being switched off, it's near the end for Zelensky.
I posted this last time around as well. Credibility checks are only a quick Google search away. They all report similar results, such as this:
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/washington-post/
This site rates it as "mostly factual", which sounds good, until you realise what it actually means; "Most articles are factual, but a lot are not". If WP was to be deemed trustworthy, it would have a "high" or "very high" status.
And since you asked, CNN has the same credibility as well: https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/left/cnn-bias/
So what does this mean? Should we automatically think everything they write is false? No, far from it. It just means we can't take anything at face value, and should require third party sources or verifiable evidence
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Zurich15359 Posts
Do all those who still doubt Ukraine blew up NS: What would convince you? What would constitute enough evidence for you to cede?
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On November 13 2023 03:54 zatic wrote:
Do all those who still doubt Ukraine blew up NS: What would convince you? What would constitute enough evidence for you to cede?
I've literally said this repeatedly now
third party sources or verifiable evidence
Doesn't mean I'm opposed to Ukraine being responsible, it seems very likely they are to me too. But I'm not going to accept it at face value because "trust me bro" levels of evidence
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United States43483 Posts
On November 13 2023 03:54 zatic wrote:
Do all those who still doubt Ukraine blew up NS: What would convince you? What would constitute enough evidence for you to cede?
What do you mean “what evidence”? We’ve yet to see any evidence of it. The suggestion that people are discarding evidence as insufficient is mischaracterizing what is happening. They are disregarding speculation and hearsay as insufficient.
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On November 13 2023 03:54 zatic wrote:
Do all those who still doubt Ukraine blew up NS: What would convince you? What would constitute enough evidence for you to cede?
More than the no evidence we've seen so far would be a good start.
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On November 13 2023 03:54 zatic wrote:
Do all those who still doubt Ukraine blew up NS: What would convince you? What would constitute enough evidence for you to cede?
I honestly don't care. Could be them, it wouldn't change anything from my perspective. There's no "100% they totally did it" evidence and I don't have to guess if it was or wasn't Ukraine. If I don't have to guess, I won't.
There's also a problem of attributing blame in case it was done by some part of Ukrainian intelligence acting without the government's approval or even awareness. Zelensky's government could just say "those guys did it on their own, we had nothing to do with it" and it would be a plausibile enough defence to dodge any serious consequences from the Western side.
What would convince me? Maybe audio recordings of high level Ukrainian officials talking to each other about the details of the operation?
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On November 13 2023 03:54 zatic wrote:
Do all those who still doubt Ukraine blew up NS: What would convince you? What would constitute enough evidence for you to cede?
"Zelensky is a man of focus, commitment and sheer fucking will, something you know very little about. I once saw him blow up 2 underwater pipelines in the baltic sea with a small sailboat, a fucking sailboat!"
Basically they keep saying they have these great sources on who (Ukraine) did it. But apparantly these great sources have no clue how they did it. Which arguably they should...
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On November 13 2023 03:54 zatic wrote:
Do all those who still doubt Ukraine blew up NS: What would convince you? What would constitute enough evidence for you to cede?
The people that performed it. Their training to show they are capable of performing it. Where they got the explosives, equipment and boat for it with some reasonable proof for it. Finally some relevant proof of who they were employed to perform the action for.
Alternatively an admission of guilt from a credible high level government employee of Ukraine.
Reported by multiple different publications with high credibility.
Regardless it matters little in the overall war by this point and will end up as a side note. Russia is more likely to have performed the action from a purely logical point of view at that time. Thus any proof for other actors needs to be strong.
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Zurich15359 Posts
To be clear, it was an honest question. You are a group I usually hold in regard when it comes to judging stories of international relevance. I find it genuinely puzzling that the same group I find myself usually agreeing with is so far off my own line of reasoning.
Of course, there is no proof out, otherwise we wouldn't have to question it. I personally found the evidence convincing enough back in June that any other explanation but Ukraine did it - in one way or another - seems just way too far off. Yet here I find people who claim there isn't any evidence at all. This doesn't usually happen to me on TL.
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EPT
