EPTOn August 02 2007 09:21 holy_war wrote:
And Tibet has and will always be a part of China
And Tibet has and will always be a part of China
We have always been allies with Eastasia.
Chinese government rules on criticism - Page 4
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Funchucks
Canada2113 Posts
We have always been allies with Eastasia. | ||
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Aphelion
United States2720 Posts
On August 02 2007 19:36 Funchucks wrote: We have always been allies with Eastasia. Lol I love that book. | ||
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Lt(1st).Fukai
China17 Posts
On August 02 2007 10:37 Frits wrote: All I'm saying was: You don't have any real freedom there. The government can do completely illegal things there to you and you won't have any rights to them. The people are not correctly represented. Which is what defines for me a crappy country to live in. That doesn't mean I have anything against it's culture or people, just it's oppressive government. So don't you dare making stupid blanket statement like "living in China sucks" because there is just so much more to live for than the imposing government. Just because you had/have it good doesn't mean the half of the country that lives in poverty agrees with you. What about the people forced into slavery or working on the land 24/7 ? Easy for you to make that statement how good life in China is. Feel free to quote where I implied this was a sudden drastic change, I said this changes nothing but only makes it look as such. You evaded the question, I said you're overlooking the people in trouble and asked how you live. Then you start quoting something that has had 0 impact on your life. The fact that you have the money to buy a computer and use the internet, play starcraft is a privilege lots of people in your country don't have, and I'm trying to get you to see things from their perspective. I lived in china and I am a chinese college student,I also know most westerners like you worship the so-called democracy very much.But it dosen't mean you can make your ignorant statement so easily simply because China don't have the "democracy "which is hailed as the most deeply honorable form of government ever devised by man.(Quoted from Ronald Reagan)I I can repost with responsibility that most of what you said is definitely a far cry from reality. You say we chinese are living in a circumstance of opperresion and no any real freedom.You deem chinese govenment as a vicous devil dominating this country cruelly.I can tell you we can criticize government freely and express our political views liberally with our friends ,relatives on the parks as well as even some strangers on the long-distance trains and buses as long as you don't provoke the social turmoils out of the malicious intentions (Just like what happened in 1989 on the Tiananmen Square)due to the stability of the country is the most top priority of current societ which is the common sense of people like me who lived in china. From your cynical words,half of china's population is living in poverty.I don't know where you get this information,however,since China has become the 4th largest economy (soon it will transcend Germany,becomes the 3rd) in the world according to the statistics from World Bank,actually most chines people lead a relatively happy and plesant life,they can do anything they can do excerpt committing crimes.Take me as a example, I am not a rich guy in china and my parents are normal workers like other chinese living in cities who dedicated almost their wholelives to their jobs.I have computer,DVD,AC ,29inches TV, water heaters to take a shower at my home and modernized cellphones for me and my famalies to communicate with each other just like what you westerners do in your countries.I also have some classmates from rural areas,they also lead a happy life,despite the disparity exsited in living standard of uban areas.They can do anything like what their courtparts living in cities do,They can receive college education, they can surf internet in the net cafe,they can fall in love with girls ,they can go to bars for fun with their college friends.etc. The most ridiculous mistake you have made is Playing SC is not a fucking damn privilege in china.I can tell you I played sc since 1998(I was 12-year old then)and almost all of my friends and classmates and many other students have access to computers (most of them have comupters at home ,but some still slipper to net cafe due to their parent's severe supervision) to play sc.SC is a very common game played by numerous young kids and teenagers as well as university students in China.Don't Say I am in comfortable life,I am from a small city in HUNAN Province ,which is a region that lags relatively behind the coastal cities.If I translate some of your words to my friends and my relatives ,I guess you are likely to be a laughingstock by virtue of your ignorance.Don't thinke you're smarter than chinese ,because you don't understand what we chinese are . | ||
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Lt(1st).Fukai
China17 Posts
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Funchucks
Canada2113 Posts
On August 02 2007 21:01 Lt(1st).Fukai wrote: ... From your cynical words,half of china's population is living in poverty.I don't know where you get this information,however,since China has become the 4th largest economy (soon it will transcend Germany,becomes the 3rd) in the world according to the statistics from World Bank, ... China's population: about 1.3 billion Germany's population: about 82.4 million So... soon China's total economy will match Germany's total economy, meaning Chinese people will make 1/16th as much as Germans on average. If you and everybody you know is living a decent, modern, middle-class lifestyle, somewhere there have got to be a whole lot of people farming rocks and eating dirt to bring the average down. I've got to say, that's not a convincing argument against rampant poverty in China. | ||
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haduken
Australia8267 Posts
On August 02 2007 22:10 Funchucks wrote: China's population: about 1.3 billion Germany's population: about 82.4 million So... soon China's total economy will match Germany's total economy, meaning Chinese people will make 1/16th as much as Germans on average. If you and everybody you know is living a decent, modern, middle-class lifestyle, somewhere there have got to be a whole lot of people farming rocks and eating dirt to bring the average down. I've got to say, that's not a convincing argument against rampant poverty in China. Neither is yours. i don't pretend to expert in economics but China's population size have absolutely nothing to do with its recent rise. Look at India, almost the same population, suck shit infrastructure, suck shit standard of living for non-elites. To Fukai. Did you think about the 1 billion peasants and farmers? The very fact that you are posting on this forum makes you part of a group of fortunate percentage. Don't fool yourself, your associations might give you an impression that all is well but wealth gap is glaring and very real. Not everyone is happy about China, too many people in the country don't have a fucking chance in life from the moment they were born. | ||
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DTDominion
United States2148 Posts
Your posts border on lunacy. | ||
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Aphelion
United States2720 Posts
On August 02 2007 22:50 DTDominion wrote: I can't believe the China apologists in this thread. Your posts border on lunacy. I could say the same about China-bashers. They take one narrow aspect of a culture and nation, its political power structure as it appears to international media, and use it to demonize everything about the country, discounting the experiences of those who are much more intimately associated with the country. A lot of posters don't seem to realize that the truth is rarely so simple, and that social power structures usually fall into a zone between absolute dictatorship and complete freedom. They take a little bit of what they hear about China (say, criticism and media is censored), and extrapolate it to mean that there are thought police on every corner of the streets, tape recording every conversation. To be honest, this entire debate reminds me of McCarthyism and yellow fear. | ||
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Response
United States1938 Posts
On August 02 2007 09:59 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Aphellion I spent about a month in China and its not like I am an expert but I find it hard to believe you under a non biased circumstance would contend that China has been the "best" place for you to live. Lets put raw statistics and numbers aside. Its a shit hole. They are closed off educationally / informationally because the Chinese government chooses what the reality is for their populace. This means that right off the bat you are going to have to defend that that is fair and reasonable. Tell me what google.cn comes up with when you put in "Taiwan" or the famous square protest? I already know, hopefully you do as well. Its bullshit. Ok nevermind the fact that that country is creating an ignorant population that happens to be the largest in the world, lets look towards living conditions. Again experience speaks for itself, I saw a man with an open wound running down his bicep to his wrist. Our guide told us that locals do that to gain an edge in their hopes for finding mercy amongst foreigners or even other locals. That does not happen in USA, Canada, Uk, Germany etc etc.. any country that does anything in terms of looking after its people would not allow it to get to this point. And I am not talking about a small odd experience, this is common place in China. I know you are proud. I know you are Chinese. But to look at judgements by the government like this and turn a blind eye only proves the stigma that Chinese people are brainwashed drones from the most controlling and evil government on the face of the earth today. well said my friend | ||
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kewlsunman
United States131 Posts
On August 02 2007 09:59 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Aphellion I spent about a month in China and its not like I am an expert but I find it hard to believe you under a non biased circumstance would contend that China has been the "best" place for you to live. Lets put raw statistics and numbers aside. Its a shit hole. They are closed off educationally / informationally because the Chinese government chooses what the reality is for their populace. This means that right off the bat you are going to have to defend that that is fair and reasonable. Tell me what google.cn comes up with when you put in "Taiwan" or the famous square protest? I already know, hopefully you do as well. Its bullshit. Ok nevermind the fact that that country is creating an ignorant population that happens to be the largest in the world, lets look towards living conditions. Again experience speaks for itself, I saw a man with an open wound running down his bicep to his wrist. Our guide told us that locals do that to gain an edge in their hopes for finding mercy amongst foreigners or even other locals. That does not happen in USA, Canada, Uk, Germany etc etc.. any country that does anything in terms of looking after its people would not allow it to get to this point. And I am not talking about a small odd experience, this is common place in China. I know you are proud. I know you are Chinese. But to look at judgements by the government like this and turn a blind eye only proves the stigma that Chinese people are brainwashed drones from the most controlling and evil government on the face of the earth today. iNcontroL, I've always enjoyed your posts, whether they were on Starcraft or other general topics. I want to address this particular post because I think it is a good example of the sort of mindset disparity that has made this thread erupt into what it is now. First of all, I think it's silly that you would call the Chinese government "the most controlling and evil government on the face of the earth today" while accusing the Chinese people of being "brainwashed drones." Your hyperbole reveals your own hypocrisy. Don't imagine that the American government does not try to sway its constituents, don't think that you yourself may not be the product of some propoganda. Second, no rational and informed individual would dispute the charges you levy against the Chinese government. That they control information, yes. That they still hold on to certain unsavory characteristics of Orwellian prophecy, yes. But the question, then, to the rational and informed individual should be: "What is the alternative?" The fact is, there was an effort, almost ten years ago, at trying to completely overhaul China and liberalize it. Liberalize information. Liberalize society. Make it into a liberal democracy. This is the "famous square" incident that you mentioned. It was rejected, though, and not by the government, but by the people of the People's Republic of China. It was rejected through negligence and apathy. It was rejected because it was the bourgeois revolution, and the lower classes simply didn't care. The Chinese people, on that day, 6/4/89, stated that they preferred oppression of information and restriction on freedoms, for security, economic prosperity, and stability; over the alternative of a liberal democracy. This is the key point. The Chinese people aren't dumb, they realize that the Chinese government is pulling the hood over their eyes, but they, for now, allow it. Because look where it's brought them. In 1989, who would have ever imagined that within 20 years, the capitol would be hosting the Olympic games. Who would have thought that the nation could have become a global superpower. Who would have believed these things. In 20 years, China has changed a lot. And just as no rational, informed person would consent to disagree with your previous charges, the same could not reject the claims I just made. Now let me preempt you and say, sure, you can make the argument that other nations did it. Taiwan, Singapore, Hong Kong, these nations all achieved a massive degree of economic growth within a relatively short amount of time. But then, they all had fairly authoritarian governments back then as well. Moreover, the comparison wouldn't necessarily even be justified because from an economics perspective, smaller nations can rely on export-driven policies that a larger nation wouldn't be able to sustain itself on (small nations can rely on other nations to consume, whereas a larger nation is itself a major consumer, and thus would be oversaturating a market that wouldn't necessarily be that great to begin with). Moreover, let me make the argument that even if you could come up with a convincing, economic argument for why it would be possible to have had such ridiculous growth under a liberal democracy, let me still say that the facts remain. People's lives are better, significantly so, now, than they were 20 years ago. And you can say, but it would be even better had it been a liberal democracy the whole way, but there, again, you are demonstrating the same cultural bias that has you claiming the Chinese government to be "evil." Americans are taught from birth that their nation was founded on the principles of liberty and freedom for all. That Washington led his troops on the grounds that they would be free from British oppression. They are taught that slavery was evil because it limited those rights. They are taught that Hitler was evil because he neglected those rights. That racism was evil, that Communism was evil, that Muslims control their women too much, and on and on. I don't disagree. I am through and through an American at heart. But I just want to point out how a cultural bias is formed. The Chinese people have never been taught these things. The Chinese people have always, throughout all of written history, held individual independence to be of significantly less value than say, respect for elders, economic prosperity, good fortune and following the Way, finding the right path, etc. etc. These aren't just stereotypes, they're truths endemic to the people. You aren't taught to grow up and succeed for your own personal gains. You grow up and find a stable job so that you can support your children, your wife, your parents, your wife's parents.... You, the individual, is responsible for these things. You are not just free, in the American sense. That's not to say the Chinese people have always been oppressed peoples waiting to be liberalized and enlightened by Western thought. It's just, how we are. In any case I'm not setting out to disprove anybody. I just want the people in this thread to realize that there are certain cultural biases that make this discussion difficult to carry out. Moreover, I hope everybody tries to see things from a slightly different perspective. For the Chinese, see that the frustrated gasps from the other side of the world comes from the high valuation they put on personal freedoms. And see that they are not wrong, that we do have much to grow and much to reform. And for the Westerners, hopefully you may see that China recognizes the good in various principles, in economic wealth, in social stability, and even in freedom. But that it's only been 20 years, and that in those 20 years we had to prioritize, and we had to choose. We couldn't have our cake and eat it too. And that in 20 years, we've come a pretty long way, and hopefully you can put away your skepticism and see that this new resolution is a big step in the right direction. Look at it and see that we recognize that things have to change, and we recognize that personal freedoms, including the right to free speech, are good things. They are desirable things that hopefully we can fully achieve one day. Just give us some time. | ||
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Psychobabas
2531 Posts
China is a complete shit-hole from my experience. You walk around in Beijing and there are crowds of beggars asking you for money and people trying to sell you some cheap rip-offs. Seemed to me like it was 10% filthy rich people and the rest where scavenging for scraps. Very dirty as well. I can't even imagine what it's like in the countryside... SHIT-HOLE my friend. No wonder the Chinese do anything they can to move to Europe/USA/Australia... More than often illegally. | ||
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Reflex
Canada703 Posts
On August 03 2007 08:38 Psychobabas wrote: I'm going along iNcontroL on this one: China is a complete shit-hole from my experience. You walk around in Beijing and there are crowds of beggars asking you for money and people trying to sell you some cheap rip-offs. Seemed to me like it was 10% filthy rich people and the rest where scavenging for scraps. Very dirty as well. I can't even imagine what it's like in the countryside... SHIT-HOLE my friend. No wonder the Chinese do anything they can to move to Europe/USA/Australia... More than often illegally. That's one city in china. How can you say that you've been to one city and say that all of China is a complete shit hole? You're basing you opinions on the standards of living that you are used to, obviously, and there can be no comparison. China is still a developing nation. A decade ago, it was considered 3rd world. Read the excellent post above you by kewlsunman, and try not to be so ignorant. | ||
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Aphelion
United States2720 Posts
On August 02 2007 09:59 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Aphellion I spent about a month in China and its not like I am an expert but I find it hard to believe you under a non biased circumstance would contend that China has been the "best" place for you to live. Lets put raw statistics and numbers aside. Its a shit hole. They are closed off educationally / informationally because the Chinese government chooses what the reality is for their populace. This means that right off the bat you are going to have to defend that that is fair and reasonable. Tell me what google.cn comes up with when you put in "Taiwan" or the famous square protest? I already know, hopefully you do as well. Its bullshit. Ok nevermind the fact that that country is creating an ignorant population that happens to be the largest in the world, lets look towards living conditions. Again experience speaks for itself, I saw a man with an open wound running down his bicep to his wrist. Our guide told us that locals do that to gain an edge in their hopes for finding mercy amongst foreigners or even other locals. That does not happen in USA, Canada, Uk, Germany etc etc.. any country that does anything in terms of looking after its people would not allow it to get to this point. And I am not talking about a small odd experience, this is common place in China. I know you are proud. I know you are Chinese. But to look at judgements by the government like this and turn a blind eye only proves the stigma that Chinese people are brainwashed drones from the most controlling and evil government on the face of the earth today. Alright, I like discussing issues and arguments in a frank manner, so lets look at your assertions point by point. On August 02 2007 09:59 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Its a shit hole. They are closed off educationally / informationally because the Chinese government chooses what the reality is for their populace. This means that right off the bat you are going to have to defend that that is fair and reasonable. Tell me what google.cn comes up with when you put in "Taiwan" or the famous square protest? Your thinking North Korea here. News there isn't fabricated, and there is a lot of access to outside stations and websites (yes, Government is trying to crack down on that, but it remains that much of the populace is aware of such alternate news sources). But even looking at the main news channels, they do cover most international news in a manner consistent with most other countries. Its not just based upon my impression of the news channels when I was there: I talk with my relatives regularly (and they've never lived abroad their lives), and there is almost nothing that I'd hear off that they wouldn't. There is of course quite a bias in the manner of presentation, but outright censorship of actual news is extremely rare. You do have to be much more circumspect with editorials and opinion articles though, and that is probably the biggest difference between Western news and those in Asia. But is it any worse than Singapore, or other countries with strong social prohibitions such as Indonesia, Malaysia? Those are all "democratic nations", Singapore and Malaysia are very well developed economically and standard of living - yet they have heavy political and media censorship. I've lived in both countries, I can verify this first hand, and established opinion would agree with me. Yet, would you say they are shit holes to live in? So your idea of media role is very much a preconceived notion, it is not a requisite for standard of living, and there is a difference between situations where you prefabricate news and where you encourage self-censorship by newspapers, or clamping down on specific cases where you feel they crossed the line. Neither is this unique to China or their political structure. A lot of it also has to do with cultural and social expectations. The dirt-digging, leave-no-stone-unturned, scandal loving paparazzi isn't universal. Am I saying that the media control is good or desirable? No, I consider the First Amendments one of the most important political concepts ever developed. But the typical Chinese station isn't bizarro world ala North Korea. Its really more of a Fox News. (Speaking of which, the media isn't doing so hot in U.S. either). On August 02 2007 09:59 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Tell me what google.cn comes up with when you put in "Taiwan" or the famous square protest? I already know, hopefully you do as well. Its bullshit. They cut that recently, but most Chinese know of it anyways. What they are aiming to censor out the Western emphasis upon the human suffering, the callous motivations of the leadership, etc. Its more about the Government reacting to the rise of blogs and forums and trying to flex their muscles and saying, hey, we can control the Web-territory too. A bullshit law I agree, but its not indicative of what the average Chinese knows. My view on this is the same as my position on piracy and internet gambling in the States. Nice try, but its not really going to do anything. It was WTF gay when it took CNN.com 20 min to get through the online filters in Beijing though. On August 02 2007 09:59 {88}iNcontroL wrote: lets look towards living conditions. Again experience speaks for itself, I saw a man with an open wound running down his bicep to his wrist. Our guide told us that locals do that to gain an edge in their hopes for finding mercy amongst foreigners or even other locals. That does not happen in USA, Canada, Uk, Germany etc etc.. any country that does anything in terms of looking after its people would not allow it to get to this point. And I am not talking about a small odd experience, this is common place in China. Touche. This is one of the ugliest truths of China, the ginormous disparity between the rich and the poor. And I can also say that what you pointed out is not an isolated incident either: living conditions are extremely bad in the poorer regions, and this is not only a recent, but also a historical phenomena. There have been worse scenarios, like peasants feeding off the bark on trees while granaries are brim-full to fulfill official communist quotas in the 60s. China has a long tradition of corrupt and uncontrollable local officials and a general arrogance and negligence to the commoner's plight in the central command. But really in most civilizations in history, how many have really treated their poor working class well? If they did, would communism even exist today? Even the early American, Greek, and Roman republics had slaves. The plight of the Chinese poor is not unique, and today, it is not a systematic government repression but rather the forces of corruption, individual and corporate selfishness and a hard to manage transition to the market economy. In both history and many of today's countries, the poor have it just as bad, and in some respects the problem China faces is the same problem the world faces. China simply has the problem in microcosm in its own society. And once you look at it like that the Western societies aren't angels either, with their debt collection, trade policies and refusal to remove agricultural subsidies and tarriffs which really kill the third world. How China deals with the poverty problem will determine its future as a great power. How much compassion the World has for those less well off and different than itself will determine the future of Humanity. It is not just our problem, and your efforts to pin it upon China and ostracise a sixth of the world isn't demonstrating the moral qualities you claim to champion. | ||
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PissedOffEmo
Canada777 Posts
http://thatvideosite.com/video/4662 censoring the square incident is equivalent to japanese government changing information about they're war crimes in the textbooks. | ||
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Aphelion
United States2720 Posts
On August 03 2007 10:30 PissedOffEmo wrote: Just take a look at the patriot act, u.s doesnt have any freedom right now http://thatvideosite.com/video/4662 censoring the square incident is equivalent to japanese government changing information about they're war crimes in the textbooks. Yea, but its no excuse for it though. Especially when its done by the same continous line of leaders. | ||
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Boblion
France8043 Posts
On August 03 2007 09:24 Aphelion wrote: Your thinking North Korea here. News there isn't fabricated, and there is a lot of access to outside stations and websites (yes, Government is trying to crack down on that, but it remains that much of the populace is aware of such alternate news sources). You can always find worse in another country but you can't deny that there are some big problems with information in China, period. On August 03 2007 09:24 Aphelion wrote: But even looking at the main news channels, they do cover most international news in a manner consistent with most other countries. Its not just based upon my impression of the news channels when I was there: I talk with my relatives regularly (and they've never lived abroad their lives), and there is almost nothing that I'd hear off that they wouldn't. Well are they cover all the important international news ? without being biaised ? No.There are no information in China about Taîwan, Tibet and even about their own political problems. There is of course quite a bias in the manner of presentation, but outright censorship of actual news is extremely rare. You do have to be much more circumspect with editorials and opinion articles though, and that is probably the biggest difference between Western news and those in Asia. But there is still censorship so i guess it could be better. On August 03 2007 09:24 Aphelion wrote: But is it any worse than Singapore, or other countries with strong social prohibitions such as Indonesia, Malaysia? Those are all "democratic nations", Singapore and Malaysia are very well developed economically and standard of living - yet they have heavy political and media censorship. I've lived in both countries, I can verify this first hand, and established opinion would agree with me. Yet, would you say they are shit holes to live in? Singapore isnt a real democracy ( on Western standarts ) and again you can always find worse. But there is still a huge difference about China and Singapore or Malaysia: they arent a potential threat for other countries and they have less inhabitants. So i think it is a less important issue than China. On August 03 2007 09:24 Aphelion wrote: So your idea of media role is very much a preconceived notion, it is not a requisite for standard of living, and there is a difference between situations where you prefabricate news and where you encourage self-censorship by newspapers, or clamping down on specific cases where you feel they crossed the line. Neither is this unique to China or their political structure. A lot of it also has to do with cultural and social expectations. The dirt-digging, leave-no-stone-unturned, scandal loving paparazzi isn't universal. Am I saying that the media control is good or desirable? No, I consider the First Amendments one of the most important political concepts ever developed. But the typical Chinese station isn't bizarro world ala North Korea. Its really more of a Fox News. (Speaking of which, the media isn't doing so hot in U.S. either). Well, good point but there is still a difference. Even if information sucks in Western country sometimes, it is not because of the government and laws. It is because stupid/close-minded people prefer simplistic news but if you are smarter you are still free to read/watch better papers/channels or even create your own ( if you are smart and have some money ). In China you cant because there are restricting laws about information on some issues ( Taiwan ... ). That is a big difference. On August 02 2007 09:59 {88}iNcontroL wrote: They cut that recently, but most Chinese know of it anyways. What they are aiming to censor out the Western emphasis upon the human suffering, the callous motivations of the leadership, etc. Its more about the Government reacting to the rise of blogs and forums and trying to flex their muscles and saying, hey, we can control the Web-territory too. A bullshit law I agree, but its not indicative of what the average Chinese knows. My view on this is the same as my position on piracy and internet gambling in the States. Nice try, but its not really going to do anything. It was WTF gay when it took CNN.com 20 min to get through the online filters in Beijing though. Yea, people know about it but why they dont learn it at school ? I think you dont understand that no one is criticizing the Chinese people but their government which is a dictatorship. On August 03 2007 09:24 Aphelion wrote: Touche. This is one of the ugliest truths of China, the ginormous disparity between the rich and the poor. And I can also say that what you pointed out is not an isolated incident either: living conditions are extremely bad in the poorer regions, and this is not only a recent, but also a historical phenomena. There have been worse scenarios, like peasants feeding off the bark on trees while granaries are brim-full to fulfill official communist quotas in the 60s. China has a long tradition of corrupt and uncontrollable local officials and a general arrogance and negligence to the commoner's plight in the central command. But really in most civilizations in history, how many have really treated their poor working class well? If they did, would communism even exist today? Even the early American, Greek, and Roman republics had slaves. The plight of the Chinese poor is not unique, and today, it is not a systematic government repression but rather the forces of corruption, individual and corporate selfishness and a hard to manage transition to the market economy. In both history and many of today's countries, the poor have it just as bad, and in some respects the problem China faces is the same problem the world faces. China simply has the problem in microcosm in its own society. And once you look at it like that the Western societies aren't angels either, with their debt collection, trade policies and refusal to remove agricultural subsidies and tarriffs which really kill the third world. How China deals with the poverty problem will determine its future as a great power. How much compassion the World has for those less well off and different than itself will determine the future of Humanity. It is not just our problem, and your efforts to pin it upon China and ostracise a sixth of the world isn't demonstrating the moral qualities you claim to champion. Once again you can always find worse in history or elsewhere and the situation now is obviously better than during the communist era. But dont be hypocritical China has a lot of problem, trying to find some excuses is both dumb and useless, and please dont say that Western societies arent angels whereas you are defending China because they just aren't in the same league nowadays. As for ostracising China, well i think that if their government doesnt conduct more democratical reforms China doesnt deserve to be welcome by Western countries. | ||
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Boblion
France8043 Posts
So i will ask something: do you guys think that a democratical transition with new political parties is possible in China nowadays ? I know that the government wont let it happen, but what about the people ? | ||
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Aphelion
United States2720 Posts
On August 03 2007 10:52 Boblion wrote: Well are they cover all the important international news ? without being biaised ? No.There are no information in China about Taîwan, Tibet and even about their own political problems. Actually, they do, and Taiwan might be the single most popular news item in Chinese media. Domestic corruption is probably the second most popular. So I guess you don't really know what your talking about. On August 03 2007 10:52 Boblion wrote: But there is still censorship so i guess it could be better. I can say the same of any country in the world. What is your point? On August 03 2007 10:52 Boblion wrote: Singapore isnt a real democracy ( on Western standarts ) and again you can always find worse. But there is still a huge difference about China and Singapore or Malaysia: they arent a potential threat for other countries and they have less inhabitants. So i think it is a less important issue than China. I'm sorry, this is the 20th century. Your Western Standards, are just that, simply your opinion. And as for China vs Singapore and Malaysia: thank you for proving my point. I always knew there was an undercurrent of yellow fear and worry about China's upheaving the current power structure hidden within the surface arguments of humanitarian rights and freedom of information. On August 03 2007 10:52 Boblion wrote: Well, good point but there is still a difference. Even if information sucks in Western country sometimes, it is not because of the government and laws. It is because stupid/close-minded people prefer simplistic news but if you are smarter you are still free to read/watch better papers/channels or even create your own ( if you are smart and have some money ). In China you cant because there are restricting laws about information on some issues ( Taiwan ... ). That is a big difference. You guys are quickly making up those laws as we speak. You could say China is keeping abreast of the times. On August 03 2007 10:52 Boblion wrote: Yea, people know about it but why they dont learn it at school ? I think you dont understand that no one is criticizing the Chinese people but their government which is a dictatorship. Sorry, I wasn't aware that saying "China is a shithole" is merely a commentary on the relative merits of different authority structures. I guess I lived too long in a highly restricted environment where information is carefully filtered and such basic interpretation skills were not taught. On August 03 2007 10:52 Boblion wrote:Once again you can always find worse in history or elsewhere and the situation now is obviously better than during the communist era. But dont be hypocritical China has a lot of problem, trying to find some excuses is both dumb and useless, and please dont say that Western societies arent angels whereas you are defending China because they just aren't in the same league nowadays. As for ostracising China, well i think that if their government doesnt conduct more democratical reforms China doesnt deserve to be welcome by Western countries. No, it does matter, because all human affairs are relative, and it was repeatedly argued and implied that China's "dire situation" was somehow unique to it, and that there is something especially wrong with its development which will relegate it to political and social purgatory. Comparision with other societies and with history will show that China is simply following a road of social development which could very easily lead to a better future. It is your derogatory attitude to China "not being in the same league", and artificially separating it as a unique case without regard to history or context that is clearly a double standard and true hypocrisy | ||
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Aphelion
United States2720 Posts
On August 03 2007 10:53 Boblion wrote: sry 2X post T-T So i will ask something: do you guys think that a democratical transition with new political parties is possible in China nowadays ? I know that the government wont let it happen, but what about the people ? With new, official parties? Absolutely impossible, and there isn't really much grass roots impetus to do so Government restriction or no. But if your just talking about organizations devoted to specific causes or special interests, yea they are already developing in some form as we speak. If your talking about a grassroots revolution, most Chinese simply think their government isn't a big problem, and they certainly aren't going to go forth and expend the effort and blood to pursue it. The modern day urban, middle class Chinese looks for future improvement in the economic and financial sphere much more than the political path. | ||
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Jayson X
Switzerland2431 Posts
China has huge history, much to offer cultural and gooood food. But. When we talk about their goverment, i have my opinion. And nomatter what you say. Nomatter what they made you believe. I've seen what's going on in my country. And it's not just sad anymore. We're way beyond that. It's a disgrace. I believe some posters here. I believe you have a perfectly normal life, with it's ups and downs. But we all know that it's fucking easy to turn your head around and just don't care. You can give me statistics and pipe dreams all day long. You can talk about corruption and humanity as long as your mouth has spit to talk. But this is no sitcom were the good end is prescripted. We don't cry first and then hug each other. This is goddamn reality and people suffer every fucking day. And for what? A brighter future for everyone? Come the fuck on. It's easy to give a speach full of collected facts and history examples. Easy to just sit there at the top of the ladder and believe everything is going to be better for everyone. I've seen chinese buissness man in my country. And their philosphy explains why so much shit is going wrong in their country: Money comes first, we see about the rest later. And i don't talk about big major companys here. If you have the goverment behind your back you can do whatever the fuck you wan't. Now you may point to other countrys. Tell me how much shit is going on over there. But that won't give you a jail-free card. That does not make it right. I once talked to a chinese about our situation. And he acctualy believed we have it better now. "We gave you streets, railtracks and a path to upper civilitation" Yes sure, but you narrow minded fucks don't care what lays underneath. It's the same in china, you stomp out big ass industrial citys over night. Oh was that agricultural country? Whateeva, it's IBM now. I've seen these trucks loaded with wood coming down the mountains in my country, so many of them you can't count em with your eye. Where do they go? Central-china. Oh thanks we don't really need em just take em and make some money out of it. You took half of our woodland allready? Go on, there's nothing better than a good rockfall in the morning. Who cares about rivers anyway, silt em up as fast as you can! Uech water. Profit, profit, profit. But sure take your 20years to rethink. It's allright. Juuuuust swell *thumps up*. | ||
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