EPT
Chinese government rules on criticism - Page 11
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
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xM(Z
Romania5299 Posts
after the war i bet that small dicks will become the latest fad | ||
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Aphelion
United States2720 Posts
On August 08 2007 10:46 aRod wrote: My point has always been simply this. People who dislike Americans are fucking retarded. Now don''t get me wrong... there are plenty of Americans who are completely retarded. Wow. On August 08 2007 10:46 aRod wrote: However I'm sick of assholes failing to recognize us as individuals. No single one of us is the embodiment of America. Not all Americans are not responsible for all the shit you blame us for. A lot of us were against the policies you hate in the first place. But what the fuck can we do? All we can be expected to do is vote in our elections and speak out. I know thats all you would do. Many people hate Americans for our Iraq policy. But consider me. I was against going into Iraq. Why you may ask? Because militant Islamist groups are fucking impossible to deal with humanely. Sadam had no problem blowing their heads off. Sacrificing individual rights for safety and order was Sadam's policy. And it worked. It kept people alive. Americans don\'t have the well kill your children's children policy of Sadam and we can't keep order in Iraq for this reason. It was a bad idea and a lot of us (about 45%) were against it from the start. So do I deserve or the 45% of people who agreed with me from the beginning deserve any responsibility? Sure its still our fucking country. We pay the taxes that supported the effort. But what the fuck are we supposed to do? When you are part of a representative democracy like America, the decisions of the nations as a whole reflect upon you. If your leadership was bad, it was your collective responsibility that you elected some one like that. There is always a minority in a democracy, but democracy is also based upon the fact that the minority has to live with the consequences of the leadership. This responsibility does not come from the fact that you actually voted for or against a certain policy but based upon the fact that you had an input, even if it might be overruled. Furthermore, you cannot expect to be treated solely as an individual alone. Even that individual personality itself, the idea of group is wrapped around it. Your culture, ethnicity and nationality factor into that individual personality, and people naturally assign perceptions and values toward that group. Such stereotypes and perceptions are obviously not universal and many cases may not be accurate, but they are a reflection of your collective actions and impact upon the global community. And you, and me also, as American citizens, have to live up to that. We can protest such labeling as individuals, but we have to accept that as a group, we have earned it for better or worse. We really can't blame other peoples for something like that. I'm sure that one or two individual Nazis were good guys and opposed the actions of the many. Does it mean we cannot condemn the Nazis as a group? On August 08 2007 10:46 aRod wrote: Most Americans have no negative intentions. Yet we still are hated as a group. In no other country do bystanders who just want a good life get as much shit as Americans for existing. This is the big, real reason people really hate us. Americans think they are so innocent, just enjoying the good life in their own little continent surrounded by oceans and two borders, offending no one and occasionally trying to help out. Do you know in reality, this nation has fucked with other countries repeatedly over history for its own economic and political gain? Consider the War of 1848, the Spanish American war, the put down of the Taiping Rebellion, and more recently the staunch support of the Iranian Shah in the 70s, the Iran-contra affair, the Vietnam war, the meddling with Israeli-Palestinian relationships and the two wars in Iraq. We may spout a lot of nice sounding rhetoric about spreading democracy and human rights, but we have repeatedly shown that we have used nations as pawns for very coldly calculated political advantage. Even your "good life" is based upon certain very unfair trading and monetary systems that propagate the misery of third world countries. Do you truly think that the average American really works that much harder than people from other countries, such that they deserve so much more than a worker from another country? Americans need to realize that whatever their individual motivations, their collective impact can be quite different, and this impact sometimes can be quite negative. | ||
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Jayson X
Switzerland2431 Posts
BBC dokumentations about china http://www.tv-links.co.uk/listings/9/4891 | ||
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Vigilante
United States130 Posts
Firstly, I apologize if it appears that my entire post was targeted at you. While the first paragraph was targeted at your comment, the rest were just a general discussion of ideas and issues bought up so far in this massive thread. Thanks. Comparing incomes alone between the lower class of the US and China does not give an accurate comparison of standard of living as economic needs in China are much cheaper than the states. I based my opinion on my trips to both the US and China, and mostly on built-up (cities, towns) areas. As for the crime rates, I am pretty sure everything I have read so far points to more murders and violent crimes in the US than many other countries, including China. Well yeah, the USA could likely solve a lot more crimes and such if we were willing to sacrifice more individual rights - we could move the country even more toward an Orwellian police state, but Americans don't want to do that, and frankly neither do I. I'd rather have a handful of crimes go unsolved than sacrifice the individual rights of a majority of the population for the potential benefit of a very small minority of that population. The fact that you thought just because I was talking about the US, my ENTIRE post was targeted at you, pretty much proves my point about US egotism and arrogance. Americans might not come across as so arrogant and defensive if other countries would mind their own business. America bashing is pretty common and prevalent, and there are a lot of worse countries in the world that should be given a stern look such as human rights abusers. It also goes to show the kind of hostility I mentioned experiencing for expressing something that can be part of a casual lunchtime conversation here in Australia. The way you wrote your post was far from the way any reasonable person I know would talk over lunch. As I said, from the very start of my post, I had the impression you were looking down your nose at me. Perhaps if you didn't talk in this tone, Americans might be more polite to you? And I don't see how being "long-winded" is arrogant. And yes, of course my post is not related to your question, for the aforementioned reasons. There were more reasons that you sounded arrogant than just that. That much of it was apparently a misunderstanding though. | ||
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Vigilante
United States130 Posts
When you are part of a representative democracy like America, the decisions of the nations as a whole reflect upon you. No they don't. Having only recently turned 18, I haven't even been able to vote up until just recently, so there is no reasonable way you can pin responsibility for the USA's past issues on me. You certainly can't blame me for acts committed by my ancestors, or that were committed by people who acted and or were put in power before I was even born (such as the Iran Contra affair, for example). Even if I could vote, I still shouldn't have any of the responsibility unless I supported the candidates who did that something you are complaining about, if then. My individual vote hardly matters, it doesn't influence the election result, and I have no control as an individual over who takes or leaves office. I can vote, and political analysts, pundits and pollsters can look at it and say "oh look, XXX number of people voted for this candidate thus we can infer they think blah blah blah about this policy" this will, to some extent, influence the policies of those in power, assuming they pay attention to polls and public opinion. But if the leaders don't pay attention to my individual vote, and that vote doesn't change the system, you can't blame me for something I have zero control over, its as simple as that. You view Americans collectively, and bash Americans collectively, even though many Americans don't deserve your words. | ||
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aRod
United States758 Posts
On August 08 2007 11:22 Aphelion wrote: When you are part of a representative democracy like America, the decisions of the nations as a whole reflect upon you. If your leadership was bad, it was your collective responsibility that you elected some one like that. There is always a minority in a democracy, but democracy is also based upon the fact that the minority has to live with the consequences of the leadership. This responsibility does not come from the fact that you actually voted for or against a certain policy but based upon the fact that you had an input, even if it might be overruled. This is somewhat wrong. The U.S. is not a democracy. We do not get together and vote on every issue. We have elections periodically based on constitutional mandate. This makes us a constitutional republic. But more to the point, if the majority of Americans had a say in every issue, we wouldn't have gone into Iraq to begin with. The poles before all the WMD bull show the majority of Americans were against action in Iraq. When you have a position, such as the U.S. presidency, which has near complete authority over foreign policy that completely ignores the will of his electorate and uses poor intelligence to manipulate the electorate into supporting him, what responsibility do the people who voted against him and were against his policy have? Other than the country Americans live in, opponents of Bush in the United States are no different from any Bush opponent anywhere in the world on the issues. Any responsibility these individuals have is minuscule. Conscious active critics are hardly responsible for the implementation of policies they oppose. Denying this is like saying John Kerry is partly responsible for president Bush's policy. (If you don't get the analogy, John was running for president, did not want Bush to be president, did everything legally and humanly he could to prevent this, but still lost. Yet John is partly responsible for Bush's actions because he took part in the electoral process.) Yeah it doesn't make any sense does it? On August 08 2007 11:22 Aphelion wrote: Furthermore, you cannot expect to be treated solely as an individual alone. Even that individual personality itself, the idea of group is wrapped around it. Your culture, ethnicity and nationality factor into that individual personality, and people naturally assign perceptions and values toward that group. Such stereotypes and perceptions are obviously not universal and many cases may not be accurate, but they are a reflection of your collective actions and impact upon the global community. And you, and me also, as American citizens, have to live up to that. We can protest such labeling as individuals, but we have to accept that as a group, we have earned it for better or worse. We really can't blame other peoples for something like that. I'm sure that one or two individual Nazis were good guys and opposed the actions of the many. Does it mean we cannot condemn the Nazis as a group? negative. I cannot disagree more. It is completely unreasonable to claim "you cannot expect to be treated solely as an individual alone." You talk of stereotypes and perceptions shaping the way individuals see you, but, by your own admission Aphelion "such stereotypes and perceptions are obviously not universal and many cases may not be accurate." So often people who stereotype and treat me a specific way because I'm American are wrong. I think people who judge individuals using stereotypes are being stupid assholes. Defending these judgments is unsound. Stereotyping as you said opens the window for being completely wrong. This is why it's important to treat all people as individuals regardless of their nation origin and ethnicity. The example of the Nazi's is humorous. I mean look what happens when I change a word you used. "I'm sure that one or two individual GERMANS were good guys and opposed the actions of the many. Does it mean we cannot condemn the Nazis as a group?" I would answer "We absolutely cannot condemn the Germans. Many Germans are of good character and worthy of my esteem, but we can and should condemn the Nazis." Americans aren't a political group. We don't all hold the same values and beliefs or support the same values and beliefs. Condemn us on an individual basis if you want to make any sense. Fact is Anti-Americanism began as the result of the Cold-War. Communist parties in various countries held Anti-American rallies. The sentiment has lingered ever since throughout Europe and the Middle East. People who stereotype Americans, insult us, and treat us poorly because of our national origin are ill educated and simply poor thinkers. QED | ||
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Ruins
141 Posts
On August 08 2007 15:41 Vigilante wrote: Well yeah, the USA could likely solve a lot more crimes and such if we were willing to sacrifice more individual rights - we could move the country even more toward an Orwellian police state, but Americans don't want to do that, and frankly neither do I. I'd rather have a handful of crimes go unsolved than sacrifice the individual rights of a majority of the population for the potential benefit of a very small minority of that population. A country doesn't have to become an Orwellian state to have less crime than the states. In fact all the European countries have less violent crimes than the states from recent surveys, and from all accounts, they are more liberal and democratic (maybe with the exception of some eastern-EU countries) than the US. On August 08 2007 15:41 Vigilante wrote: Americans might not come across as so arrogant and defensive if other countries would mind their own business. America bashing is pretty common and prevalent, and there are a lot of worse countries in the world that should be given a stern look such as human rights abusers. This made me lol IRL. Most countries "hate" American because they don't mind their own business in foreign policy and meddle in other countries' affairs. When is the last war China fought overseas? How about New Zealand? South Park pretty much summed it up with their Iraq-Osama episode. People hate the US because the people in the US don't even have an idea of why they are hated. When the US stops invading other countries, I am sure most of the civilized world will stop hating its citizens. On August 08 2007 15:41 Vigilante wrote: The way you wrote your post was far from the way any reasonable person I know would talk over lunch. As I said, from the very start of my post, I had the impression you were looking down your nose at me. Perhaps if you didn't talk in this tone, Americans might be more polite to you? I still don't quite get what was wrong with my "tone", especially since I didn't swear and insult you directly (like others on the thread), nor did I brush off your points without counter-argument. And I didn't lie about talking politics and foreign affairs (US is foreign to us) during lunch, Had a conversation with friends couple of lunches ago about Iraq actually, and why Australia hasn't pulled out yet. And one last thing, to those arguing that because they didn't vote for a government, they are entirely absolved from responsibility for its actions, like the Iraq war, its complete BS. Unless you rallied at an anti-war protest, contacted your local congress, tried your best to get on the media or any internet opinion site and voice your distaste and vote for a candidate that didn't back the war in the next election, you are far from being innocent. I have personally been in protests here for university staff rights, and would feel guilty (partly because I am now employed by the university, but morally in general) if I didn't fight for my pay and my working conditions. Also, part of the negatives of having a democratic government is that leadership is never representative. Actually, this is the disadvantage of having any government. So, while people who didn't vote for the current government is less responsible, they are still responsible. I hate invoking Godwin's law, but its early and I haven't had my coffee, so lets compare this to the Nazis. Just because you didn't support Hitler, are you completely not responsible for the Holocaust if you did nothing to stop it? And sorry if this post also sounds arrogant. Just remember that arrogance does not mean incorrectness. And arrogant person can be right at times. | ||
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xM(Z
Romania5299 Posts
you are both right right, but i don't care. think of this hypothetical situation: us wants war; makes a referendum; 51% of the population agrees with the war; us bombs the shit out of my country. in retaliation i'm supposed to do what?: go in the us, knock from door to door, find out what people agreed with the war, bomb the shit out of them and spare the rest?, epic lulz man. the rule all for one and one for all applies here. logically you shoud be the one bombing those 51%. the fact that you voted against the war does not mean shit to me if you do nothing about it. you should redirect your energies and bash your fellow americans who you described as ... there are plenty of Americans who are completely retarded . | ||
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aRod
United States758 Posts
Something other than Iraq please. Name something the U.S. has done that pissed you off. As an American I would really like to know what, in particular, we're despised for. Honestly, looking at the history of U.S. troop deployment and involvement in armed conflict... I just don't see any evidence of random incessant bombing were so famous for. I'm open to change my views. Just show me some U.S. military policy that pissed you off. Don't use the latest Iraqi war if you can avoid it. | ||
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5HITCOMBO
Japan2239 Posts
On August 08 2007 18:43 aRod wrote: xM(Z i feel your example servers almost no rhetorical purpose. I could be wrong here, but just show me some evidence of random U.S. bombing. Something other than Iraq please. Name something the U.S. has done that pissed you off. As an American I would really like to know what, in particular, we're despised for. Honestly, looking at the history of U.S. troop deployment and involvement in armed conflict... I just don't see any evidence of random incessant bombing were so famous for. I'm open to change my views. Just show me some U.S. military policy that pissed you off. Don't use the latest Iraqi war if you can avoid it. Drug policy around the world was made by America pushing their ideas onto other nations with threats to cut trade and ruin economies if they didn't follow along. Mexico was forced to spray their weed with pesticides which indirectly caused a huge incident involving weed brought to America. Vietnam. The Atomic Bomb. Yes, I disagree with U.S. Military Policy. | ||
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Vigilante
United States130 Posts
A country doesn't have to become an Orwellian state to have less crime than the states. But you would have to either surrender some personal freedoms, or else change the culture. The former, however, would imho be a big step closer toward an Orwellian society. In fact all the European countries have less violent crimes than the states from recent surveys, and from all accounts, they are more liberal and democratic (maybe with the exception of some eastern-EU countries) than the US. There might be a difference of definition regarding the word 'liberal'. I've heard it means different things to different people, but at any rate, democratic doesnt = free. This made me lol IRL. Most countries "hate" American because they don't mind their own business in foreign policy and meddle in other countries' affairs. I actually agree with you here, and this is just one reason of many that I'm voting for Ron Paul in the primaries - because he is the only candidate I know of who holds this view who is running for Pres. in 2008. I still don't quite get what was wrong with my "tone", especially since I didn't swear and insult you directly (like others on the thread), nor did I brush off your points without counter-argument. The way you wrote your post was part of what I found irritating. And I didn't lie about talking politics and foreign affairs (US is foreign to us) during lunch, I don't recall calling you a liar. And one last thing, to those arguing that because they didn't vote for a government, they are entirely absolved from responsibility for its actions, like the Iraq war, its complete BS. Unless you rallied at an anti-war protest, contacted your local congress, tried your best to get on the media or any internet opinion site and voice your distaste and vote for a candidate that didn't back the war in the next election, you are far from being innocent. I totally disagree with you, but anyways, I've done most of that, and do so regularly. Also, part of the negatives of having a democratic government is that leadership is never representative. Actually, this is the disadvantage of having any government. So, while people who didn't vote for the current government is less responsible, they are still responsible. I still don't understand how I am in any way responsible for something I have no reasonable degree of control over. Blaming someone for something they can't reasonably control is like blaming a person for being born into a poor family - it doesn't make sense. That's an extreme example, but I'm using it to make a point. Sure I have somewhat more influence on the political system than a person born into a poor family would have over whom he is born under, but in order for you to cast responsibility on me, there would have had to be something that I could have done to change the situation single-handedly, and there quite simply is nothing of that sort that is possible, meaning you are essentially blaming me for something that is beyond my control as an individual. I hate invoking Godwin's law, but its early and I haven't had my coffee, so lets compare this to the Nazis. Just because you didn't support Hitler, are you completely not responsible for the Holocaust if you did nothing to stop it? By not supporting Hitler, you didn't take part in any of the evil that lead to the Holocaust, so there is no blame that can be reasonably placed on your shoulders. The blame would rest upon Hitler and those who helped bring him into power. And sorry if this post also sounds arrogant. Just remember that arrogance does not mean incorrectness. And arrogant person can be right at times. This post didn't bother me in the least. It was the one I was talking about earlier that I found irritating. Thank you for being considerate. | ||
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5HITCOMBO
Japan2239 Posts
On August 08 2007 16:03 aRod wrote: "I'm sure that one or two individual GERMANS were good guys and opposed the actions of the many. Does it mean we cannot condemn the Nazis as a group?" I would answer "We absolutely cannot condemn the Germans. Many Germans are of good character and worthy of my esteem, but we can and should condemn the Nazis." Americans aren't a political group. We don't all hold the same values and beliefs or support the same values and beliefs. Condemn us on an individual basis if you want to make any sense. Fact is Anti-Americanism began as the result of the Cold-War. Communist parties in various countries held Anti-American rallies. The sentiment has lingered ever since throughout Europe and the Middle East. People who stereotype Americans, insult us, and treat us poorly because of our national origin are ill educated and simply poor thinkers. QED Anyone who ever ends anything they've written with "QED" is too arrogant to convince that they're wrong. I will attempt to show you anyway. I find it absolutely retarded that you go on about how "parties in various countries" and "Europe and the Middle East... stereotype Americans, insult us, and treat us poorly". I might have missed something, but doesn't your exact argument apply both ways? You're too caught up defending yourself to notice that "hey, everything I just said about them is true about me". YOU'RE the one stereotyping "Europe and the Middle East". Haven't you ever thought about that? | ||
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HeadBangaa
United States6512 Posts
On August 08 2007 19:51 5HITCOMBO wrote: Anyone who ever ends anything they've written with "QED" is too arrogant to convince that they're wrong. In all fairness, the general forum is pretty much a bunch of guys throwing around static ideas. | ||
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Vigilante
United States130 Posts
as far as this thread goes Aphelion is the only reason why i don't dislike you (aRod) and Vigilante. Ok, and I still don't understand why you would have anything against me. Like I said, I was not even able to vote up until roughly two months ago, so you are blaming me for things that were beyond my control .. this is unreasonable. you are both right right, but i don't care. think of this hypothetical situation: us wants war; makes a referendum; 51% of the population agrees with the war; us bombs the shit out of my country. And the response of the rest of the world is to hate ALL Americans, or Americans generally, which is, as I said earlier, unreasonable. logically you shoud be the one bombing those 51%. the fact that you voted against the war does not mean shit to me if you do nothing about it. Voting and writing my representatives is essentially everything I can do about it within reason, both of which I do on a regular basis. | ||
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pat777
United States356 Posts
On August 08 2007 19:51 5HITCOMBO wrote: Anyone who ever ends anything they've written with "QED" is too arrogant to convince that they're wrong. I will attempt to show you anyway. I find it absolutely retarded that you go on about how "parties in various countries" and "Europe and the Middle East... stereotype Americans, insult us, and treat us poorly". I might have missed something, but doesn't your exact argument apply both ways? You're too caught up defending yourself to notice that "hey, everything I just said about them is true about me". YOU'RE the one stereotyping "Europe and the Middle East". Haven't you ever thought about that? QED + Show Spoiler + Sorry, couldn't really resist.  | ||
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HeadBangaa
United States6512 Posts
On August 08 2007 19:51 5HITCOMBO wrote: You're too caught up defending yourself to notice that "hey, everything I just said about them is true about me". YOU'RE the one stereotyping "Europe and the Middle East". Haven't you ever thought about that? It is much easier to make sweeping statements about countries in the Middle East, and even most European nations, simply because the populations there are far more homogeneous, both culturally and ethnically. | ||
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5HITCOMBO
Japan2239 Posts
On August 08 2007 19:59 HeadBangaa wrote: In all fairness, the general forum is pretty much a bunch of guys throwing around static ideas. I just realized that the general forum and congress are very much the same. No matter who's arguing or what it's about, it won't have any effect because nobody's actually doing anything about the issue. | ||
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5HITCOMBO
Japan2239 Posts
On August 08 2007 20:06 HeadBangaa wrote: It is much easier to make sweeping statements about countries in the Middle East, and even most European nations, simply because the populations there are far more homogeneous, both culturally and ethnically. Yeah, but you can't complain about them stereotyping us if we're not even allowing for the fact that one or two of them might be different. | ||
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HeadBangaa
United States6512 Posts
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