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On November 05 2020 22:16 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2020 22:05 dbRic1203 wrote:On November 05 2020 21:53 Wegandi wrote:On November 05 2020 21:47 Artisreal wrote:On November 05 2020 21:31 Dante08 wrote:
I don't really see this mentioned here but do you guys feel not all Trump voters necessarily support Trump but hate that the democrat party has swayed so left and hate the left so much that they just voted for Trump? Remind us again what you consider the far left policies the Democratic Party is actively trying to pursue. A not insignificant # of folks campaigned on medicare for all and outlawing private insurance (Harris being one). It was what...Biden and Buttigieg the only ones who didn't. If you see D trends they're moving to Sanders positions on a lot of things and even Germany aren't stupid enough to outlaw their private insurance market. We have both private and public health insurance companies. But we do have health care for all. And that isn t dumb, that just insures, that you don t fucking die, because you re poor. Healthcare for all isn t left, it s normal in pretty much all other developed western countries Whoosh. I know you have private markets that aren't mandated on every little thing including price and specific coverage (e.g. the Government makes the plans and these are the only plans "private" insurers can offer which is what Harris proposed). Sanders plan eliminated private health insurance altogether. If you listen to this growing wing of the party they do not even use any lip service on the benefits of capitalism or the market. They are closer to Kshama Sawant than some moderate folks in the Nordic countries. The US has the most progressive taxation of all OECD countries. Scandinavia have lower corporate taxes, lower top rate marginal income tax rates, less business regulation, etc. Progressives in this country advocate the exact opposite. They think you can pay for everything welfare under the sun by only taxing the "ultra rich". It's lunacy. Notice they never talk about sharing the burden for what they propose it's all free shit. The rich will pay for it. People in the NL, Denmark, etc. don't talk like that (at least those that aren't communist fringe there).
You do know that the US healthcare system is absolutely broken and one of the great embarrassments of the western world, right?
There's a lot of hills to die on, but defending the US healthcare system is not the one I'd pick.
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On November 05 2020 22:18 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2020 22:03 Neneu wrote:
Imagine living in a world where the free public healthcare is far left. Free public healthcare such as Medicare for all is definitely left. There are many kinds of ways to achieve universal healthcare without it being all public and free. Many developed countries work in a hybrid system with private (paid) health insurance with heavy government intervention and private healthcare providers in parts of the healthcare market.
Tell me, what does Medicare mean to you? Because if the answer is free, totally government-side health insurance, that isn't correct.
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On November 05 2020 22:02 pmh wrote:
12 hours since Trumps last tweet,whats taking so long he must be up by now.
Maybe he's finally realized that his only realistic path to 270 is through diet and exercise.
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On November 05 2020 22:16 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2020 22:05 dbRic1203 wrote:On November 05 2020 21:53 Wegandi wrote:On November 05 2020 21:47 Artisreal wrote:On November 05 2020 21:31 Dante08 wrote:
I don't really see this mentioned here but do you guys feel not all Trump voters necessarily support Trump but hate that the democrat party has swayed so left and hate the left so much that they just voted for Trump? Remind us again what you consider the far left policies the Democratic Party is actively trying to pursue. A not insignificant # of folks campaigned on medicare for all and outlawing private insurance (Harris being one). It was what...Biden and Buttigieg the only ones who didn't. If you see D trends they're moving to Sanders positions on a lot of things and even Germany aren't stupid enough to outlaw their private insurance market. We have both private and public health insurance companies. But we do have health care for all. And that isn t dumb, that just insures, that you don t fucking die, because you re poor. Healthcare for all isn t left, it s normal in pretty much all other developed western countries Whoosh. I know you have private markets that aren't mandated on every little thing including price and specific coverage (e.g. the Government makes the plans and these are the only plans "private" insurers can offer which is what Harris proposed). Sanders plan eliminated private health insurance altogether. If you listen to this growing wing of the party they do not even use any lip service on the benefits of capitalism or the market. They are closer to Kshama Sawant than some moderate folks in the Nordic countries. The US has the most progressive taxation of all OECD countries. Scandinavia have lower corporate taxes, lower top rate marginal income tax rates, less business regulation, etc. Progressives in this country advocate the exact opposite. They think you can pay for everything welfare under the sun by only taxing the "ultra rich". It's lunacy. Notice they never talk about sharing the burden for what they propose it's all free shit. The rich will pay for it. People in the NL, Denmark, etc. don't talk like that (at least those that aren't communist fringe there).
But you can't compare with Scandinavia, because those countries are small and homogeneous.
Or does that only apply to left leaning ideas, now that we are discussing regulations and progressive taxation?
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On November 05 2020 21:47 Artisreal wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2020 21:31 Dante08 wrote:
I don't really see this mentioned here but do you guys feel not all Trump voters necessarily support Trump but hate that the democrat party has swayed so left and hate the left so much that they just voted for Trump? Remind us again what you consider the far left policies the Democratic Party is actively trying to pursue.
Should have made it clear, what I meant was some people have considered that the Democratic party have swayed left. It is not my opinion
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On November 05 2020 22:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2020 22:02 pmh wrote:
12 hours since Trumps last tweet,whats taking so long he must be up by now. Maybe he's finally realized that his only realistic path to 270 is through diet and exercise.
That made me exhale a little bit through my nose. Good one.
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On November 05 2020 22:10 dbRic1203 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2020 22:08 Zambrah wrote:On November 05 2020 22:06 m4ini wrote:On November 05 2020 22:04 Zambrah wrote:On November 05 2020 22:03 Neneu wrote:
Imagine living in a world where the free public healthcare is far left. I dont have to imagine, Im living in it, its awful Yeah, but you have choice now. See the upsides. You can choose to either die or drown in debt. Ohoho, don't you worry, I might choose both one day! As we re allready on that topic, what about university fees? they are so insanly high in the USA, that its almost impossible to study without living in live long debt. getting rid of that to give more equal chances to education is probably far - left as well?
Tuition costs are directly responsible with the rise of Government backed college loans. Look at rates of FAFSA with tuition price increases. They're basically "spooky action at a distance". (My fun way of saying they're causally linked) Government created the problem by wanting to incentivize every tom dick and harry to go to college and basically making it mandatory in our current environment if you want to work in non-trade sectors. (Kind of like how WWII and linking healthcare to employment coupled with the formation of the FDA, Medicare, Medicaid, etc. have caused healthcare prices to spike insanely high)
So we continue our Government creates problem, therefore Government solution to problem means more Government to fix when Government intervened. Story as old as time (of course you'll blame the market or w/e).
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On November 05 2020 22:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2020 22:02 pmh wrote:
12 hours since Trumps last tweet,whats taking so long he must be up by now. Maybe he's finally realized that his only realistic path to 270 is through diet and exercise.
Absolutely savage
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On November 05 2020 22:23 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2020 22:10 dbRic1203 wrote:On November 05 2020 22:08 Zambrah wrote:On November 05 2020 22:06 m4ini wrote:On November 05 2020 22:04 Zambrah wrote:On November 05 2020 22:03 Neneu wrote:
Imagine living in a world where the free public healthcare is far left. I dont have to imagine, Im living in it, its awful Yeah, but you have choice now. See the upsides. You can choose to either die or drown in debt. Ohoho, don't you worry, I might choose both one day! As we re allready on that topic, what about university fees? they are so insanly high in the USA, that its almost impossible to study without living in live long debt. getting rid of that to give more equal chances to education is probably far - left as well? Tuition costs are directly responsible with the rise of Government backed college loans. Look at rates of FAFSA with tuition price increases. They're basically "spooky action at a distance". (My fun way of saying they're causally linked) Government created the problem by wanting to incentivize every tom dick and harry to go to college and basically making it mandatory in our current environment if you want to work in non-trade sectors. (Kind of like how WWII and linking healthcare to employment coupled with the formation of the FDA, Medicare, Medicaid, etc. have caused healthcare prices to spike insanely high) So we continue our Government creates problem, therefore Government solution to problem means more Government to fix when Government intervened. Story as old as time (of course you'll blame the market or w/e). And yet the rest of the world is full of countries with government backed college loans without leaving students in massive debts
Same shit with healthcare prices.
This is not a problem with government, its only a problem in America.
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Right but if a problem exists in America it is highly unique and there is nothing we can learn from every other place that has solved the problem America is experiencing except to conclude that because they are NOT, in fact, America, that their solutions are actually incapable of working here.
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On November 05 2020 22:29 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2020 22:23 Wegandi wrote:On November 05 2020 22:10 dbRic1203 wrote:On November 05 2020 22:08 Zambrah wrote:On November 05 2020 22:06 m4ini wrote:On November 05 2020 22:04 Zambrah wrote:On November 05 2020 22:03 Neneu wrote:
Imagine living in a world where the free public healthcare is far left. I dont have to imagine, Im living in it, its awful Yeah, but you have choice now. See the upsides. You can choose to either die or drown in debt. Ohoho, don't you worry, I might choose both one day! As we re allready on that topic, what about university fees? they are so insanly high in the USA, that its almost impossible to study without living in live long debt. getting rid of that to give more equal chances to education is probably far - left as well? Tuition costs are directly responsible with the rise of Government backed college loans. Look at rates of FAFSA with tuition price increases. They're basically "spooky action at a distance". (My fun way of saying they're causally linked) Government created the problem by wanting to incentivize every tom dick and harry to go to college and basically making it mandatory in our current environment if you want to work in non-trade sectors. (Kind of like how WWII and linking healthcare to employment coupled with the formation of the FDA, Medicare, Medicaid, etc. have caused healthcare prices to spike insanely high) So we continue our Government creates problem, therefore Government solution to problem means more Government to fix when Government intervened. Story as old as time (of course you'll blame the market or w/e). And yet the rest of the world is full of countries with government backed college loans without leaving students in massive debts Same shit with healthcare prices. This is not a problem with government, its only a problem in America.
I believe there was an artice about how someone can come to europe, get his broken foot treated here and rent an apartment for the duration until everything healed up, fly back and still pays way less then to be treated in the USA.
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On November 05 2020 22:44 gTank wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2020 22:29 Gorsameth wrote:On November 05 2020 22:23 Wegandi wrote:On November 05 2020 22:10 dbRic1203 wrote:On November 05 2020 22:08 Zambrah wrote:On November 05 2020 22:06 m4ini wrote:On November 05 2020 22:04 Zambrah wrote:On November 05 2020 22:03 Neneu wrote:
Imagine living in a world where the free public healthcare is far left. I dont have to imagine, Im living in it, its awful Yeah, but you have choice now. See the upsides. You can choose to either die or drown in debt. Ohoho, don't you worry, I might choose both one day! As we re allready on that topic, what about university fees? they are so insanly high in the USA, that its almost impossible to study without living in live long debt. getting rid of that to give more equal chances to education is probably far - left as well? Tuition costs are directly responsible with the rise of Government backed college loans. Look at rates of FAFSA with tuition price increases. They're basically "spooky action at a distance". (My fun way of saying they're causally linked) Government created the problem by wanting to incentivize every tom dick and harry to go to college and basically making it mandatory in our current environment if you want to work in non-trade sectors. (Kind of like how WWII and linking healthcare to employment coupled with the formation of the FDA, Medicare, Medicaid, etc. have caused healthcare prices to spike insanely high) So we continue our Government creates problem, therefore Government solution to problem means more Government to fix when Government intervened. Story as old as time (of course you'll blame the market or w/e). And yet the rest of the world is full of countries with government backed college loans without leaving students in massive debts Same shit with healthcare prices. This is not a problem with government, its only a problem in America. I believe there was an artice about how someone can come to europe, get his broken foot treated here and rent an apartment for the duration until everything healed up, fly back and still pays way less then to be treated in the USA.
I'd believe that in a heartbeat.
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I seared a chunk of my leg off in China and they treated me for 30 fucking US dollars. The US’ medical treatment would’ve been an order of magnitude more expensive, almost definitely more expensive than a decent Shanghai hotel for the two weeks of bandage replacements and such.
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On November 05 2020 22:23 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2020 22:10 dbRic1203 wrote:On November 05 2020 22:08 Zambrah wrote:On November 05 2020 22:06 m4ini wrote:On November 05 2020 22:04 Zambrah wrote:On November 05 2020 22:03 Neneu wrote:
Imagine living in a world where the free public healthcare is far left. I dont have to imagine, Im living in it, its awful Yeah, but you have choice now. See the upsides. You can choose to either die or drown in debt. Ohoho, don't you worry, I might choose both one day! As we re allready on that topic, what about university fees? they are so insanly high in the USA, that its almost impossible to study without living in live long debt. getting rid of that to give more equal chances to education is probably far - left as well? Tuition costs are directly responsible with the rise of Government backed college loans. Look at rates of FAFSA with tuition price increases. They're basically "spooky action at a distance". (My fun way of saying they're causally linked) Government created the problem by wanting to incentivize every tom dick and harry to go to college and basically making it mandatory in our current environment if you want to work in non-trade sectors. (Kind of like how WWII and linking healthcare to employment coupled with the formation of the FDA, Medicare, Medicaid, etc. have caused healthcare prices to spike insanely high) So we continue our Government creates problem, therefore Government solution to problem means more Government to fix when Government intervened. Story as old as time (of course you'll blame the market or w/e).
There are just some goods (health, education) where the market is not the right answer, simply because those goods are basic needs, that should not be dependent on if you re rich enough to afford them. If the poor can t get education, you re severly decreasing the pool of talent your country has to solve problems of the future.
Edit.: disclaimer: I m studing buisness administration and had some economics subjects as well. I belive markets are widely superior in pretty much all other aspects of live and that we should heavily deregulate the world wide trade. There are just some sectors, where it s just stupid to deny some people goods, because they can t pay for it and it s the communitys hands to help those people.
I ve been living in Australia for about a year and I m realy glad, that I live in Germany, because public healthcare and public education is WAY WAY cheaper here than there (mostly because of tax support, obviously)
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Costs of education in the usa are way higher then in europe which trickles down in the costs of many other services like healthcare though there is more reasons.
You end up with a much higher base cost and then on top of that much higher base cost a profit margin for the hospital is beeing added which i guess could be another 10%.
The usa does have very good doctors and healthcare though.
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Picked up this nugget from Twitter:
After saying earlier this AM there are fewer than 25K absentee ballots left, Georgia's secretary of state has corrected the number to the same count the data shows: About 50K left. That doesn't include provisionals, military and overseas ballots & ballots that are cured.
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On November 05 2020 21:53 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2020 21:47 Artisreal wrote:On November 05 2020 21:31 Dante08 wrote:
I don't really see this mentioned here but do you guys feel not all Trump voters necessarily support Trump but hate that the democrat party has swayed so left and hate the left so much that they just voted for Trump? Remind us again what you consider the far left policies the Democratic Party is actively trying to pursue. A not insignificant # of folks campaigned on medicare for all and outlawing private insurance (Harris being one). It was what...Biden and Buttigieg the only ones who didn't. If you see D trends they're moving to Sanders positions on a lot of things and even Germany aren't stupid enough to outlaw their private insurance market.
Just to make me understand better. You cite one policy where Harris is too far left for you and that seals the deal on the whole party being too far left?
Do you think her statement from July 2019 is not up to date anymore?
Unlike the current system, private plans in the new Medicare system will be held to stricter consumer protection standards than they are today, such as getting reimbursed less than what the Medicare plan will cost to operate, to ensure that they are delivering meaningful value and unable to profit off of gaming consumers or the government. People will also be able to purchase supplemental insurance covering services not included in Medicare, such as medical insurance for traveling abroad, or cosmetic surgery.
Source
Ill answer that for you. As she's now part of the Biden campaign, this is her current position, which reads pretty similar to me:
As president, Biden will protect the Affordable Care Act from these continued attacks. He opposes every effort to get rid of this historic law – including efforts by Republicans, and efforts by Democrats. Instead of starting from scratch and getting rid of private insurance, he has a plan to build on the Affordable Care Act by giving Americans more choice, reducing health care costs, and making our health care system less complex to navigate.
Source
How do you come to the conclusion that this high profile person now tries to undermine Joe Biden's position of not getting rid of private insurers?
On November 05 2020 22:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2020 22:02 pmh wrote:
12 hours since Trumps last tweet,whats taking so long he must be up by now. Maybe he's finally realized that his only realistic path to 270 is through diet and exercise.
lmao
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How do you come to the conclusion that this high profile person now tries to undermine Joe Biden's position of not getting rid of private insurers?
Oh that's simple. That's because Wegandi lives in a world where regulation literally equals outlawing.
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50k votes left to count in GA according to cnn with a 18k lead for trump.
Not sure how much left in PA. Biden still 165k behind but cnn seems confident Biden can take it.
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Northern Ireland27471 Posts
It’s not as if further healthcare reform and education fee reform are not popular, not just amongst ostensible Dems but across the population average.
So no, what blue collar votes remained/shifted to Trump I don’t think you can contribute to the Dems being too far left on those specific issues.
A culture of dismissiveness, or not jumping in promising to save jobs that the market itself is squeezing out. Or other factors
Which political wing is traditionally associated with subsidising and bailing out industries again?
This particular crude cohort of incoherent anger I’m alluding yo isn’t one exclusive to America, depressingly familiar in its growth in the U.K. too. Government should enact policy to save their jobs and fuck everyone else.
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EPT
