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On October 23 2020 14:33 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2020 14:24 Mohdoo wrote:On October 23 2020 14:22 Danglars wrote:On October 23 2020 14:18 Mohdoo wrote:
/r/conservative is of course foaming at the mouth and insisting Trump won. Does anyone here agree? It feels like Trump needed a lot more than that to get anything done. Biden doesn't need 400 to win, he just needs more than Donald. Can he win the debate, yet not win hard enough to make it win the election? The early voting is already massive, and it definitely doesn't take into account whether or not Trump won a debate a couple days later. 2 separate things I guess. First, did he win, second, does this make people think he might win? I'll finish the debate after work Friday for a full answer. For what it's worth, my right-leaning friends tell me Trump won the debate, but it probably won't move the needle. Pennsylvania got a lot tougher with the oil comment and the fracking. Biden's full on all Obama's "successes," but only the VP for the failures. Further comment if anybody asks once I finish the whole thing.
It seems the right really think Trump won while everyone else thinks it was a tie or Biden won.
I don't think the oil comments move anything because he also came out and said hes not banning fracking, came out like 2 or 3 times against if iI remember correctly
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On October 23 2020 14:51 IyMoon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2020 14:33 Danglars wrote:On October 23 2020 14:24 Mohdoo wrote:On October 23 2020 14:22 Danglars wrote:On October 23 2020 14:18 Mohdoo wrote:
/r/conservative is of course foaming at the mouth and insisting Trump won. Does anyone here agree? It feels like Trump needed a lot more than that to get anything done. Biden doesn't need 400 to win, he just needs more than Donald. Can he win the debate, yet not win hard enough to make it win the election? The early voting is already massive, and it definitely doesn't take into account whether or not Trump won a debate a couple days later. 2 separate things I guess. First, did he win, second, does this make people think he might win? I'll finish the debate after work Friday for a full answer. For what it's worth, my right-leaning friends tell me Trump won the debate, but it probably won't move the needle. Pennsylvania got a lot tougher with the oil comment and the fracking. Biden's full on all Obama's "successes," but only the VP for the failures. Further comment if anybody asks once I finish the whole thing. It seems the right really think Trump won while everyone else thinks it was a tie or Biden won. I don't think the oil comments move anything because he also came out and said hes not banning fracking, came out like 2 or 3 times against if iI remember correctly
He's said he's banning fracking too many times on the campaign trail to not explain why he's changed his thinking on it. You don't get to pick up climate change credits for taking such an aggressive stance, then also collect pragmatist vote share for moving back on the same stance. He's overdue for a "here's how my thinking on this issue has evolved in the last 6 months" pitch--both him and Kamala.
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On October 23 2020 11:38 Kenthros wrote:
It must be because of me being all around depressed, after losing my job and home and having to relocate, but this debate, though much more civil compared to the others, after I am hearing are these 2 all I can think of is why? Why are these our candidates? Literally right off the bat the woman asked what will be your plan,
Trump: repeats shit he says hes done in the past, no plan.
Biden: says Trump didn't do those things says he has a plan doesn't talk about it.
This was right at the damn start. Why are these 2 up here? This goes back and forth in this debate to the part were I just was so stupifiyed with Trump talking of clean air, I just couldn't take listening to them anymore. Whats going on with me? Am I just crazy in thinking like this? How if I'm not crazy do we get to this point?
No you're not crazy I think a lot of people feel the same way. The good thing is that the president is not the entire government. After the elections there should be a big personnel change regardless of who wins the presidency, so hopefully relief will be on the way. My number one gripe with Trump is how he obstructs competent people from doing their jobs and thinks he knows better than experts in their fields. Whatever Biden's faults I don't think he has that level of hubris that has gutted the federal government of its competent workers.
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On October 23 2020 14:51 IyMoon wrote:
I don't think the oil comments move anything because he also came out and said hes not banning fracking, came out like 2 or 3 times against if iI remember correctly
Read on twitter that PA moved from 68 Biden to 64 Biden on predictit after the debate but it's not a big shift.
For sure, if you want to see if theres any effect check the betting markets.
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On October 23 2020 11:38 Kenthros wrote:
It must be because of me being all around depressed, after losing my job and home and having to relocate, but this debate, though much more civil compared to the others, after I am hearing are these 2 all I can think of is why? Why are these our candidates? Literally right off the bat the woman asked what will be your plan,
Trump: repeats shit he says hes done in the past, no plan.
Biden: says Trump didn't do those things says he has a plan doesn't talk about it.
This was right at the damn start. Why are these 2 up here? This goes back and forth in this debate to the part were I just was so stupifiyed with Trump talking of clean air, I just couldn't take listening to them anymore. Whats going on with me? Am I just crazy in thinking like this? How if I'm not crazy do we get to this point? Americans (in general) have repeatedly not cared about actual policies so there is little point in politicians talking about it.
Hillary had some great plans that would have genuinely helped a lot of poorer Americans, no one gave a shit.
If the voters don't care, the politicians don't have a reason to care either.
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On October 23 2020 18:28 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2020 11:38 Kenthros wrote:
It must be because of me being all around depressed, after losing my job and home and having to relocate, but this debate, though much more civil compared to the others, after I am hearing are these 2 all I can think of is why? Why are these our candidates? Literally right off the bat the woman asked what will be your plan,
Trump: repeats shit he says hes done in the past, no plan.
Biden: says Trump didn't do those things says he has a plan doesn't talk about it.
This was right at the damn start. Why are these 2 up here? This goes back and forth in this debate to the part were I just was so stupifiyed with Trump talking of clean air, I just couldn't take listening to them anymore. Whats going on with me? Am I just crazy in thinking like this? How if I'm not crazy do we get to this point? Americans (in general) have repeatedly not cared about actual policies so there is little point in politicians talking about it. Hillary had some great plans that would have genuinely helped a lot of poorer Americans, no one gave a shit. If the voters don't care, the politicians don't have a reason to care either.
I think those threads are a perfect example of disregard to policies that actually make a world of difference. It's all hyperboles and radical proposals that don't make sense, or burst.
Like, it's not worth choosing between Democrats and Republicans on climate change be because the improvements democrats are aiming for are not enough and so anyway the planet is doomed and it makes no difference. "Significant improvement that might not be enough" or "the worst you can possibly do" are worth the same when you have abandoned all nuances and disregard all constraints.
If that's the level if immaturity of the political debate, policies indeed don't matter at all. It's all about telling people what they want yo hear and promising them radical changes that will not happen.
The tragic thing is the countless people who are suffering very real, life changing consequences while people like that play Starbucks revolutionaries or Starbucks doomsday prophets.
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Like, it's not worth choosing between Democrats and Republicans on climate change be because the improvements democrats are aiming for are not enough and so anyway the planet is doomed and it makes no difference. "Significant improvement that might not be enough" or "the worst you can possibly do" are worth the same when you have abandoned all nuances and disregard all constraints.
The actual argument is that "not enough" and "worse than that" aren't acceptable for obvious reasons.
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On October 23 2020 19:50 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +Like, it's not worth choosing between Democrats and Republicans on climate change be because the improvements democrats are aiming for are not enough and so anyway the planet is doomed and it makes no difference. "Significant improvement that might not be enough" or "the worst you can possibly do" are worth the same when you have abandoned all nuances and disregard all constraints. The actual argument is that "not enough" and "worse than that" aren't acceptable for obvious reasons.
Yes and the reality is that right now those are the only options. ACA is not enough, so you won't chose between ACA and nothing. Obviously you don't give a damn about Joe Doe whose cancer will be untreated because of your refusal to do the obvious right thing. What is Joe Doe's cancer compared to your priviledge to condescendingly call everyone enablers and insult anyone who doesn't stand on your little moral highground platform?
All of that calling for an obviously democratic (rofl) marxist leninist (quadruple rofl) revolution because that has proven to be such a great solution. Obviously.
John Doe will be happy to learn that his death was not in vain and that after the glorious communist revolution, there won't be any cancer because we will have eliminated every evil from society.
Even Chomsky and Zizek say that obviousfuckingly leftists should vote Biden.
But anyway. It's not about you. It's the whole political debate that has degenerated into this kind of infantile broad ideological division with complete disregard to the actual effect of those boring policies that we won't take time to discuss because apparently Lenin or Ayn Rand are clearly the solution.
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On October 23 2020 20:04 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2020 19:50 GreenHorizons wrote:Like, it's not worth choosing between Democrats and Republicans on climate change be because the improvements democrats are aiming for are not enough and so anyway the planet is doomed and it makes no difference. "Significant improvement that might not be enough" or "the worst you can possibly do" are worth the same when you have abandoned all nuances and disregard all constraints. The actual argument is that "not enough" and "worse than that" aren't acceptable for obvious reasons. Yes and the reality is that right now those are the only options.
Incorrect. They are the only two with acceptable ranges of outcomes for you (and people that share that belief).
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On October 23 2020 20:07 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2020 20:04 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 23 2020 19:50 GreenHorizons wrote:Like, it's not worth choosing between Democrats and Republicans on climate change be because the improvements democrats are aiming for are not enough and so anyway the planet is doomed and it makes no difference. "Significant improvement that might not be enoughwhAtever" or "the worst you can possibly do" are worth the same when you have abandoned all nuances and disregard all constraints. The actual argument is that "not enough" and "worse than that" aren't acceptable for obvious reasons. Yes and the reality is that right now those are the only options. Incorrect. They are the only two with acceptable ranges of outcomes for you (and people that share that belief).
Whatever man, this is a loss of time. Go write "Grand socialist revolution!!!!" on your ballot, that's gonna make people's life better.
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On October 23 2020 20:09 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2020 20:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 23 2020 20:04 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 23 2020 19:50 GreenHorizons wrote:Like, it's not worth choosing between Democrats and Republicans on climate change be because the improvements democrats are aiming for are not enough and so anyway the planet is doomed and it makes no difference. "Significant improvement that might not be enoughwhAtever" or "the worst you can possibly do" are worth the same when you have abandoned all nuances and disregard all constraints. The actual argument is that "not enough" and "worse than that" aren't acceptable for obvious reasons. Yes and the reality is that right now those are the only options. Incorrect. They are the only two with acceptable ranges of outcomes for you (and people that share that belief). Whatever man, this is a loss of time. Go write "Grand socialist revolution!!!!" on your ballot, that's gonna make people's life better.
You can be frustrated about your errors if you like, but I'd appreciate you accurately describing what you're arguing against.
EDIT: Important note:ACA is not enough, so you won't chose between ACA and nothing. ACA is most likely lost regardless of the outcome of the election. Barrett (who Biden is not opposed to and described as a "very fine person") is set to be confirmed before the election and SCOTUS will take up the related case before inauguration (presuming there is one).
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On October 23 2020 20:12 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2020 20:09 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 23 2020 20:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 23 2020 20:04 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 23 2020 19:50 GreenHorizons wrote:Like, it's not worth choosing between Democrats and Republicans on climate change be because the improvements democrats are aiming for are not enough and so anyway the planet is doomed and it makes no difference. "Significant improvement that might not be enoughwhAtever" or "the worst you can possibly do" are worth the same when you have abandoned all nuances and disregard all constraints. The actual argument is that "not enough" and "worse than that" aren't acceptable for obvious reasons. Yes and the reality is that right now those are the only options. Incorrect. They are the only two with acceptable ranges of outcomes for you (and people that share that belief). Whatever man, this is a loss of time. Go write "Grand socialist revolution!!!!" on your ballot, that's gonna make people's life better. You can be frustrated about your errors if you like, but I'd appreciate you accurately describing what you're arguing against. EDIT: Important note:ACA is not enough, so you won't chose between ACA and nothing. ACA is most likely lost regardless of the outcome of the election. Barrett (who Biden is not opposed to and described as a "very fine person") is set to be confirmed before the election and SCOTUS will take up the related case before inauguration (presuming there is one).
This is the sort of thing that makes the "Lul vote dem its all you have" so fucking wretched feeling. They're just NOT as different as theyre made out to be, the differences between them are overblown. Trump has been awful but my life hasnt been that different between a Trump presidency and an Obama presidency.
Biden will keep agreeing with Republican shit, things will get a modicum better, and then a Republican will win, and things will get two modicum worse, and then that cycle repeats ad fucking nauseum.
But hey, when we get New Hitler vs. Democrat Bland Trump in the probably-not-so-distant-future I look
forward to being told how we have to rally around Democrat Bland Trump and that if we wanted someone else we should've... voted for someone else in a primary where the Democrats are legally allowed to pick whoever they want regardless of votes. Compelling.
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The post-debate CNN poll was 53-39 for Biden. That's better than last time for Trump, but still indicates no one besides his supporters thought he won.
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On October 23 2020 21:49 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2020 20:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 23 2020 20:09 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 23 2020 20:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 23 2020 20:04 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 23 2020 19:50 GreenHorizons wrote:Like, it's not worth choosing between Democrats and Republicans on climate change be because the improvements democrats are aiming for are not enough and so anyway the planet is doomed and it makes no difference. "Significant improvement that might not be enoughwhAtever" or "the worst you can possibly do" are worth the same when you have abandoned all nuances and disregard all constraints. The actual argument is that "not enough" and "worse than that" aren't acceptable for obvious reasons. Yes and the reality is that right now those are the only options. Incorrect. They are the only two with acceptable ranges of outcomes for you (and people that share that belief). Whatever man, this is a loss of time. Go write "Grand socialist revolution!!!!" on your ballot, that's gonna make people's life better. You can be frustrated about your errors if you like, but I'd appreciate you accurately describing what you're arguing against. EDIT: Important note:ACA is not enough, so you won't chose between ACA and nothing. ACA is most likely lost regardless of the outcome of the election. Barrett (who Biden is not opposed to and described as a "very fine person") is set to be confirmed before the election and SCOTUS will take up the related case before inauguration (presuming there is one). This is the sort of thing that makes the "Lul vote dem its all you have" so fucking wretched feeling. They're just NOT as different as theyre made out to be, the differences between them are overblown. Trump has been awful but my life hasnt been that different between a Trump presidency and an Obama presidency. Biden will keep agreeing with Republican shit, things will get a modicum better, and then a Republican will win, and things will get two modicum worse, and then that cycle repeats ad fucking nauseum. But hey, when we get New Hitler vs. Democrat Bland Trump in the probably-not-so-distant-future I look forward to being told how we have to rally around Democrat Bland Trump and that if we wanted someone else we should've... voted for someone else in a primary where the Democrats are legally allowed to pick whoever they want regardless of votes. Compelling.
We're going to need some serious incremental improvements to get out of this lesser evilism hole we've dug ourselves into as a country.
Unfortunate that it's come to this, but "major party consensus against the will of the people" is a global phenomenon, including in the US.
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Yah, unfortunately I found myself about as eager to listen to this vacuous exchange as I was the previous bombastic one. I turned it off pretty quickly. I'm really just super depressed about the state of US politics in general and the lack of direction.
In the words of Jack Aubrey;
+ Show Spoiler +
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On October 23 2020 21:49 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2020 20:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 23 2020 20:09 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 23 2020 20:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 23 2020 20:04 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 23 2020 19:50 GreenHorizons wrote:Like, it's not worth choosing between Democrats and Republicans on climate change be because the improvements democrats are aiming for are not enough and so anyway the planet is doomed and it makes no difference. "Significant improvement that might not be enoughwhAtever" or "the worst you can possibly do" are worth the same when you have abandoned all nuances and disregard all constraints. The actual argument is that "not enough" and "worse than that" aren't acceptable for obvious reasons. Yes and the reality is that right now those are the only options. Incorrect. They are the only two with acceptable ranges of outcomes for you (and people that share that belief). Whatever man, this is a loss of time. Go write "Grand socialist revolution!!!!" on your ballot, that's gonna make people's life better. You can be frustrated about your errors if you like, but I'd appreciate you accurately describing what you're arguing against. EDIT: Important note:ACA is not enough, so you won't chose between ACA and nothing. ACA is most likely lost regardless of the outcome of the election. Barrett (who Biden is not opposed to and described as a "very fine person") is set to be confirmed before the election and SCOTUS will take up the related case before inauguration (presuming there is one). This is the sort of thing that makes the "Lul vote dem its all you have" so fucking wretched feeling. They're just NOT as different as theyre made out to be, the differences between them are overblown. Trump has been awful but my life hasnt been that different between a Trump presidency and an Obama presidency. Biden will keep agreeing with Republican shit, things will get a modicum better, and then a Republican will win, and things will get two modicum worse, and then that cycle repeats ad fucking nauseum. But hey, when we get New Hitler vs. Democrat Bland Trump in the probably-not-so-distant-future I look forward to being told how we have to rally around Democrat Bland Trump and that if we wanted someone else we should've... voted for someone else in a primary where the Democrats are legally allowed to pick whoever they want regardless of votes. Compelling.
Of course your life hasn't been that different. I bet for many people in Germany life was not so different in 1935 than it was in 1931.
For the dozens of millions of people who got coverage because of the ACA, the difference is quite fucking radical though.
It's not because YOU are not a gay person in the military, or a woman needing an abortion, or a poor person with pre-existing condition that can't afford an insurance that none of it matters. It's for those we vote.
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On October 23 2020 21:49 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2020 20:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 23 2020 20:09 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 23 2020 20:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 23 2020 20:04 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 23 2020 19:50 GreenHorizons wrote:Like, it's not worth choosing between Democrats and Republicans on climate change be because the improvements democrats are aiming for are not enough and so anyway the planet is doomed and it makes no difference. "Significant improvement that might not be enoughwhAtever" or "the worst you can possibly do" are worth the same when you have abandoned all nuances and disregard all constraints. The actual argument is that "not enough" and "worse than that" aren't acceptable for obvious reasons. Yes and the reality is that right now those are the only options. Incorrect. They are the only two with acceptable ranges of outcomes for you (and people that share that belief). Whatever man, this is a loss of time. Go write "Grand socialist revolution!!!!" on your ballot, that's gonna make people's life better. You can be frustrated about your errors if you like, but I'd appreciate you accurately describing what you're arguing against. EDIT: Important note:ACA is not enough, so you won't chose between ACA and nothing. ACA is most likely lost regardless of the outcome of the election. Barrett (who Biden is not opposed to and described as a "very fine person") is set to be confirmed before the election and SCOTUS will take up the related case before inauguration (presuming there is one). This is the sort of thing that makes the "Lul vote dem its all you have" so fucking wretched feeling. They're just NOT as different as theyre made out to be, the differences between them are overblown. Trump has been awful but my life hasnt been that different between a Trump presidency and an Obama presidency. Biden will keep agreeing with Republican shit, things will get a modicum better, and then a Republican will win, and things will get two modicum worse, and then that cycle repeats ad fucking nauseum. But hey, when we get New Hitler vs. Democrat Bland Trump in the probably-not-so-distant-future I look forward to being told how we have to rally around Democrat Bland Trump and that if we wanted someone else we should've... voted for someone else in a primary where the Democrats are legally allowed to pick whoever they want regardless of votes. Compelling.
The differences between the current Democrat and Republican policies are significant. It is the height of ignorant privilege to just say, "but my life hasn't been that different between Trump and Obama". There are millions of people whose lives have been dramatically affected by Trump's policies.
You can be frustrated about your errors if you like, but I'd appreciate you accurately describing what you're arguing against.
I would think that your vote, motivated entirely by your selfish desire to keep your ego safe and secure, is far more prone to being an "error" than someone who is willing to compromise on their political desires in order to enact real, beneficial change for those around them.
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EPT
