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I don't know how you guys manage to have this discussion over and over again without ever discussing how we escape the neoliberal political framework.
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On October 24 2020 00:17 Nebuchad wrote:
I don't know how you guys manage to have this discussion over and over again without ever discussing how we escape the neoliberal political framework.
The first step is simple, and we've said it countless times.
Get rid of the Electoral College.
Alternatives to the two party system cannot and will not ever succeed in any way while the Electoral College is in place as it is currently designed.
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At which point we reach the same impassé as always. The US system is shit. But the people with the power to change it are the people who win in that shitty system. They have no incentives to change it, and i am not even certain if changing that shitty system would even have a majority in the population of the US.
There are many ways one could make the system less shitty, but implementing any of those is basically impossible due to the way the shitty system is set up to protect its own shittyness.
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People seriously still considering not voting for Biden? lul
![[image loading]](https://i.redd.it/16ha6w20zku51.jpg)
User was warned for this post.
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While Biden's climate plan doesn't go far enough, it buys time. That time can be used to develop better plans, technology, politicians, etc. to deal with climate change. Trump's plan is the same as accelerating climate change.
On October 24 2020 00:22 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2020 00:17 Nebuchad wrote:
I don't know how you guys manage to have this discussion over and over again without ever discussing how we escape the neoliberal political framework. The first step is simple, and we've said it countless times. Get rid of the Electoral College. Alternatives to the two party system cannot and will not ever succeed in any way while the Electoral College is in place as it is currently designed.
The compromise here is to eliminate the reapportionment act of 1929 and increase the cap on the house massively. That makes the electoral college more evenly distributed, as it's partially based on the rep number.
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On October 24 2020 00:08 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2020 21:49 Zambrah wrote:On October 23 2020 20:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 23 2020 20:09 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 23 2020 20:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 23 2020 20:04 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 23 2020 19:50 GreenHorizons wrote:Like, it's not worth choosing between Democrats and Republicans on climate change be because the improvements democrats are aiming for are not enough and so anyway the planet is doomed and it makes no difference. "Significant improvement that might not be enoughwhAtever" or "the worst you can possibly do" are worth the same when you have abandoned all nuances and disregard all constraints. The actual argument is that "not enough" and "worse than that" aren't acceptable for obvious reasons. Yes and the reality is that right now those are the only options. Incorrect. They are the only two with acceptable ranges of outcomes for you (and people that share that belief). Whatever man, this is a loss of time. Go write "Grand socialist revolution!!!!" on your ballot, that's gonna make people's life better. You can be frustrated about your errors if you like, but I'd appreciate you accurately describing what you're arguing against. EDIT: Important note:ACA is not enough, so you won't chose between ACA and nothing. ACA is most likely lost regardless of the outcome of the election. Barrett (who Biden is not opposed to and described as a "very fine person") is set to be confirmed before the election and SCOTUS will take up the related case before inauguration (presuming there is one). This is the sort of thing that makes the "Lul vote dem its all you have" so fucking wretched feeling. They're just NOT as different as theyre made out to be, the differences between them are overblown. Trump has been awful but my life hasnt been that different between a Trump presidency and an Obama presidency. Biden will keep agreeing with Republican shit, things will get a modicum better, and then a Republican will win, and things will get two modicum worse, and then that cycle repeats ad fucking nauseum. But hey, when we get New Hitler vs. Democrat Bland Trump in the probably-not-so-distant-future I look forward to being told how we have to rally around Democrat Bland Trump and that if we wanted someone else we should've... voted for someone else in a primary where the Democrats are legally allowed to pick whoever they want regardless of votes. Compelling. Of course your life hasn't been that different. I bet for many people in Germany life was not so different in 1935 than it was in 1931. For the dozens of millions of people who got coverage because of the ACA, the difference is quite fucking radical though. It's not because YOU are not a gay person in the military, or a woman needing an abortion, or a poor person with pre-existing condition that can't afford an insurance that none of it matters. It's for those we vote.
Please, enlighten me, when the Republicans have their 6-3 majority on the Supreme Court and Biden refuses to add justices, what has voting accomplished for the women who need access to abortions? To people who rely on the ACA?
Fuck all, because your "incremental progress" bullshit obviously is not functioning in America.
So yes, keep believing America's problems are solved by the likes of Joe Biden and maybe in 200+ years Americans might be able to get an abortion again after compromising with the Neo-Republican party!
On October 24 2020 00:11 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2020 21:49 Zambrah wrote:On October 23 2020 20:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 23 2020 20:09 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 23 2020 20:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 23 2020 20:04 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 23 2020 19:50 GreenHorizons wrote:Like, it's not worth choosing between Democrats and Republicans on climate change be because the improvements democrats are aiming for are not enough and so anyway the planet is doomed and it makes no difference. "Significant improvement that might not be enoughwhAtever" or "the worst you can possibly do" are worth the same when you have abandoned all nuances and disregard all constraints. The actual argument is that "not enough" and "worse than that" aren't acceptable for obvious reasons. Yes and the reality is that right now those are the only options. Incorrect. They are the only two with acceptable ranges of outcomes for you (and people that share that belief). Whatever man, this is a loss of time. Go write "Grand socialist revolution!!!!" on your ballot, that's gonna make people's life better. You can be frustrated about your errors if you like, but I'd appreciate you accurately describing what you're arguing against. EDIT: Important note:ACA is not enough, so you won't chose between ACA and nothing. ACA is most likely lost regardless of the outcome of the election. Barrett (who Biden is not opposed to and described as a "very fine person") is set to be confirmed before the election and SCOTUS will take up the related case before inauguration (presuming there is one). This is the sort of thing that makes the "Lul vote dem its all you have" so fucking wretched feeling. They're just NOT as different as theyre made out to be, the differences between them are overblown. Trump has been awful but my life hasnt been that different between a Trump presidency and an Obama presidency. Biden will keep agreeing with Republican shit, things will get a modicum better, and then a Republican will win, and things will get two modicum worse, and then that cycle repeats ad fucking nauseum. But hey, when we get New Hitler vs. Democrat Bland Trump in the probably-not-so-distant-future I look forward to being told how we have to rally around Democrat Bland Trump and that if we wanted someone else we should've... voted for someone else in a primary where the Democrats are legally allowed to pick whoever they want regardless of votes. Compelling. The differences between the current Democrat and Republican policies are significant. It is the height of ignorant privilege to just say, "but my life hasn't been that different between Trump and Obama". There are millions of people whose lives have been dramatically affected by Trump's policies.
They're "significant" on paper, except Democrats regularly fold to the Republicans over any and everything and as a result their "differences" don't actually amount to anything.
For every 8 years Democrats might be in office they accomplish maybe half of what a Republican would accomplish in 4 years.
A lot of America's problems existed under Obama, police brutality was still grotesque and shitty, white supremacists were still out there being awful shitbags, gun violence was still prevelant, we were still bombing innocents, these things are not unique to Republicans, Democrats may be against them in an abstract way but they do nothing to actually put a stop to any of it, they seem to actively engage in the shitty behavior themselves sometimes, a la Obama's deportations.
Democrats are a Brunch party. Get into power so everyone can go back to brunch and feel safe and comfortable ignoring the glaring issues in American society.
On October 24 2020 00:29 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2020 00:17 Nebuchad wrote:
I don't know how you guys manage to have this discussion over and over again without ever discussing how we escape the neoliberal political framework. Speaking personally, I think the path forward involves the Left learning how to power grab as well as the Right does, and I think that involves duplicity that many interested in doing the right thing find distasteful. Therein lies the rub.
If politicians play any real role in change this will be it, as hopeless as I find even that prospect these days. I expect a ton of pushback and complaints that their lack of compromise is ruining everything and that we shouldn't demand change! We should compromise, we should work with the Republicans (after all, we NEED a strong Republican party according to a prominent Democrat leader.)
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On October 24 2020 00:17 Nebuchad wrote:
I don't know how you guys manage to have this discussion over and over again without ever discussing how we escape the neoliberal political framework.
Speaking personally, I think the path forward involves the Left learning how to power grab as well as the Right does, and I think that involves duplicity that many interested in doing the right thing find distasteful. Therein lies the rub.
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On October 24 2020 00:28 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2020 00:08 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 23 2020 21:49 Zambrah wrote:On October 23 2020 20:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 23 2020 20:09 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 23 2020 20:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 23 2020 20:04 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 23 2020 19:50 GreenHorizons wrote:Like, it's not worth choosing between Democrats and Republicans on climate change be because the improvements democrats are aiming for are not enough and so anyway the planet is doomed and it makes no difference. "Significant improvement that might not be enoughwhAtever" or "the worst you can possibly do" are worth the same when you have abandoned all nuances and disregard all constraints. The actual argument is that "not enough" and "worse than that" aren't acceptable for obvious reasons. Yes and the reality is that right now those are the only options. Incorrect. They are the only two with acceptable ranges of outcomes for you (and people that share that belief). Whatever man, this is a loss of time. Go write "Grand socialist revolution!!!!" on your ballot, that's gonna make people's life better. You can be frustrated about your errors if you like, but I'd appreciate you accurately describing what you're arguing against. EDIT: Important note:ACA is not enough, so you won't chose between ACA and nothing. ACA is most likely lost regardless of the outcome of the election. Barrett (who Biden is not opposed to and described as a "very fine person") is set to be confirmed before the election and SCOTUS will take up the related case before inauguration (presuming there is one). This is the sort of thing that makes the "Lul vote dem its all you have" so fucking wretched feeling. They're just NOT as different as theyre made out to be, the differences between them are overblown. Trump has been awful but my life hasnt been that different between a Trump presidency and an Obama presidency. Biden will keep agreeing with Republican shit, things will get a modicum better, and then a Republican will win, and things will get two modicum worse, and then that cycle repeats ad fucking nauseum. But hey, when we get New Hitler vs. Democrat Bland Trump in the probably-not-so-distant-future I look forward to being told how we have to rally around Democrat Bland Trump and that if we wanted someone else we should've... voted for someone else in a primary where the Democrats are legally allowed to pick whoever they want regardless of votes. Compelling. Of course your life hasn't been that different. I bet for many people in Germany life was not so different in 1935 than it was in 1931. For the dozens of millions of people who got coverage because of the ACA, the difference is quite fucking radical though. It's not because YOU are not a gay person in the military, or a woman needing an abortion, or a poor person with pre-existing condition that can't afford an insurance that none of it matters. It's for those we vote. Please, enlighten me, when the Republicans have their 6-3 majority on the Supreme Court and Biden refuses to add justices, what has voting accomplished for the women who need access to abortions? To people who rely on the ACA? Fuck all, because your "incremental progress" bullshit obviously is not functioning in America. So yes, keep believing America's problems are solved by the likes of Joe Biden and maybe in 200+ years Americans might be able to get an abortion again after compromising with the Neo-Republican party!
The ACA was meaningful incremental progress enacted by a more conservative Democratic bloc than what would be in Congress were the Democrats to win the White House and Senate this year.
This is the same kind of historical ignorance that people show towards economic regulations.
"When has incremental progress ever helped me?!?!"
All the time. Literally all the time. Most legislative gains in terms of rights for women, POC, workers, education, healthcare access, environmental regulations, etc. etc. etc. were compromises from an initially more progressive stance that were enacted within the system. Most of them weren't ideal and have many flaws that need to be fixed, but they have been meaningful change that has helped people's lives in innumerable ways.
Sure, you can protest outside of the system to create external pressure, you can push to reshape the system so that it is better, but you can't just throw a temper tantrum and refuse to work within the system. People's lives are actually affected every day by that system, regardless of your moral stance on working within it or not. All that time that you sit comfortably in your privilege, refusing to act within the system because you don't like it, results in countless people's lives being deeply affected or ended when working within the system could have helped them.
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On October 24 2020 00:35 JimmiC wrote:
I think it has to be talked about how even the capitalism part of the US is broken. In the ideal US system the best and the brightest would rise to the top. Donald Trump is a big loud symbol that it is not happening that way. It who and where you are born that matters. Fixing nepotism should be a a priority for all Americas because it fucks up socialism and capitalism.
I think its even deeper than nepotism, KwarK talked about how he could have made as much money as Trump claims to have by investing in (correct me if Im wrong I know fuck-all about financial anything and the post was old) extremely safe things.
How people can fail upwards in America is grotesque.
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On October 24 2020 00:29 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2020 00:17 Nebuchad wrote:
I don't know how you guys manage to have this discussion over and over again without ever discussing how we escape the neoliberal political framework. Speaking personally, I think the path forward involves the Left learning how to power grab as well as the Right does, and I think that involves duplicity that many interested in doing the right thing find distasteful. Therein lies the rub.
The right has material conditions that make it easier for them to do power grabs. It's not just that we suck at it, it's not a level playing field.
But yes, in fairness I do believe you're going to need to seize the democratic party. When you do that, you will need to be aware that it makes it more likely that a republican gets elected in the short term, and you'll have to be okay with it.
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On October 24 2020 00:37 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2020 00:28 Zambrah wrote:On October 24 2020 00:08 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 23 2020 21:49 Zambrah wrote:On October 23 2020 20:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 23 2020 20:09 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 23 2020 20:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 23 2020 20:04 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 23 2020 19:50 GreenHorizons wrote:Like, it's not worth choosing between Democrats and Republicans on climate change be because the improvements democrats are aiming for are not enough and so anyway the planet is doomed and it makes no difference. "Significant improvement that might not be enoughwhAtever" or "the worst you can possibly do" are worth the same when you have abandoned all nuances and disregard all constraints. The actual argument is that "not enough" and "worse than that" aren't acceptable for obvious reasons. Yes and the reality is that right now those are the only options. Incorrect. They are the only two with acceptable ranges of outcomes for you (and people that share that belief). Whatever man, this is a loss of time. Go write "Grand socialist revolution!!!!" on your ballot, that's gonna make people's life better. You can be frustrated about your errors if you like, but I'd appreciate you accurately describing what you're arguing against. EDIT: Important note:ACA is not enough, so you won't chose between ACA and nothing. ACA is most likely lost regardless of the outcome of the election. Barrett (who Biden is not opposed to and described as a "very fine person") is set to be confirmed before the election and SCOTUS will take up the related case before inauguration (presuming there is one). This is the sort of thing that makes the "Lul vote dem its all you have" so fucking wretched feeling. They're just NOT as different as theyre made out to be, the differences between them are overblown. Trump has been awful but my life hasnt been that different between a Trump presidency and an Obama presidency. Biden will keep agreeing with Republican shit, things will get a modicum better, and then a Republican will win, and things will get two modicum worse, and then that cycle repeats ad fucking nauseum. But hey, when we get New Hitler vs. Democrat Bland Trump in the probably-not-so-distant-future I look forward to being told how we have to rally around Democrat Bland Trump and that if we wanted someone else we should've... voted for someone else in a primary where the Democrats are legally allowed to pick whoever they want regardless of votes. Compelling. Of course your life hasn't been that different. I bet for many people in Germany life was not so different in 1935 than it was in 1931. For the dozens of millions of people who got coverage because of the ACA, the difference is quite fucking radical though. It's not because YOU are not a gay person in the military, or a woman needing an abortion, or a poor person with pre-existing condition that can't afford an insurance that none of it matters. It's for those we vote. Please, enlighten me, when the Republicans have their 6-3 majority on the Supreme Court and Biden refuses to add justices, what has voting accomplished for the women who need access to abortions? To people who rely on the ACA? Fuck all, because your "incremental progress" bullshit obviously is not functioning in America. So yes, keep believing America's problems are solved by the likes of Joe Biden and maybe in 200+ years Americans might be able to get an abortion again after compromising with the Neo-Republican party! The ACA was meaningful incremental progress enacted by a more conservative Democratic bloc than what would be in Congress were the Democrats to win the White House and Senate this year. This is the same kind of historical ignorance that people show towards economic regulations. "When has incremental progress ever helped me?!?!" All the time. Literally all the time. Most legislative gains in terms of rights for women, POC, workers, education, healthcare access, environmental regulations, etc. etc. etc. were compromises from an initially more progressive stance that were enacted within the system. Sure, you can protest outside of the system to create external pressure, you can push to reshape the system so that it is better, but you can't just throw a temper tantrum and refuse to work within the system. People's lives are actually affected every day by that system, regardless of your moral stance on working within it or not. All that time that you sit comfortably in your privilege, refusing to act within the system because you don't like it, results in countless people's lives being deeply affected or ended when working within the system could have helped them.
I'll be frank, this is fucking stupid, I vote, I've always voted, and I'll continue to vote on the extremely off chance something might actually happen.
My issue is pretending that that lone simple fucking action is going to do anything, its ignorant as hell, rights for POCs is a great example, where would we be if, say Lincoln said, "well, we have to work with the Confederates! We'll slowly fade out slavery over time," or if MLK just didn't happen. War. Riots. REAL action that didn't rely on duplicitous politicians finding it within their hearts to throw the average person a bone.
Hell we'd still be living under a god damned MONARCHY if working within the system was the only way to make change happen.
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On October 24 2020 00:42 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2020 00:37 Stratos_speAr wrote:On October 24 2020 00:28 Zambrah wrote:On October 24 2020 00:08 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 23 2020 21:49 Zambrah wrote:On October 23 2020 20:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 23 2020 20:09 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 23 2020 20:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 23 2020 20:04 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 23 2020 19:50 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
The actual argument is that "not enough" and "worse than that" aren't acceptable for obvious reasons. Yes and the reality is that right now those are the only options. Incorrect. They are the only two with acceptable ranges of outcomes for you (and people that share that belief). Whatever man, this is a loss of time. Go write "Grand socialist revolution!!!!" on your ballot, that's gonna make people's life better. You can be frustrated about your errors if you like, but I'd appreciate you accurately describing what you're arguing against. EDIT: Important note:ACA is not enough, so you won't chose between ACA and nothing. ACA is most likely lost regardless of the outcome of the election. Barrett (who Biden is not opposed to and described as a "very fine person") is set to be confirmed before the election and SCOTUS will take up the related case before inauguration (presuming there is one). This is the sort of thing that makes the "Lul vote dem its all you have" so fucking wretched feeling. They're just NOT as different as theyre made out to be, the differences between them are overblown. Trump has been awful but my life hasnt been that different between a Trump presidency and an Obama presidency. Biden will keep agreeing with Republican shit, things will get a modicum better, and then a Republican will win, and things will get two modicum worse, and then that cycle repeats ad fucking nauseum. But hey, when we get New Hitler vs. Democrat Bland Trump in the probably-not-so-distant-future I look forward to being told how we have to rally around Democrat Bland Trump and that if we wanted someone else we should've... voted for someone else in a primary where the Democrats are legally allowed to pick whoever they want regardless of votes. Compelling. Of course your life hasn't been that different. I bet for many people in Germany life was not so different in 1935 than it was in 1931. For the dozens of millions of people who got coverage because of the ACA, the difference is quite fucking radical though. It's not because YOU are not a gay person in the military, or a woman needing an abortion, or a poor person with pre-existing condition that can't afford an insurance that none of it matters. It's for those we vote. Please, enlighten me, when the Republicans have their 6-3 majority on the Supreme Court and Biden refuses to add justices, what has voting accomplished for the women who need access to abortions? To people who rely on the ACA? Fuck all, because your "incremental progress" bullshit obviously is not functioning in America. So yes, keep believing America's problems are solved by the likes of Joe Biden and maybe in 200+ years Americans might be able to get an abortion again after compromising with the Neo-Republican party! The ACA was meaningful incremental progress enacted by a more conservative Democratic bloc than what would be in Congress were the Democrats to win the White House and Senate this year. This is the same kind of historical ignorance that people show towards economic regulations. "When has incremental progress ever helped me?!?!" All the time. Literally all the time. Most legislative gains in terms of rights for women, POC, workers, education, healthcare access, environmental regulations, etc. etc. etc. were compromises from an initially more progressive stance that were enacted within the system. Sure, you can protest outside of the system to create external pressure, you can push to reshape the system so that it is better, but you can't just throw a temper tantrum and refuse to work within the system. People's lives are actually affected every day by that system, regardless of your moral stance on working within it or not. All that time that you sit comfortably in your privilege, refusing to act within the system because you don't like it, results in countless people's lives being deeply affected or ended when working within the system could have helped them. I'll be frank, this is fucking stupid, I vote, I've always voted, and I'll continue to vote on the extremely off chance something might actually happen. My issue is pretending that that lone simple fucking action is going to do anything, its ignorant as hell, rights for POCs is a great example, where would we be if, say Lincoln said, "well, we have to work with the Confederates! We'll slowly fade out slavery over time," or if MLK just didn't happen. War. Riots. REAL action that didn't rely on duplicitous politicians finding it within their hearts to throw the average person a bone. Hell we'd still be living under a god damned MONARCHY if working within the system was the only way to make change happen.
No one here has said it is the only way.
Literally no one.
This is a lazy, half-assed strawman you made to try to shift the goal posts after realizing that the point that you were arguing is weak.
They're "significant" on paper, except Democrats regularly fold to the Republicans over any and everything and as a result their "differences" don't actually amount to anything.
For every 8 years Democrats might be in office they accomplish maybe half of what a Republican would accomplish in 4 years.
A lot of America's problems existed under Obama, police brutality was still grotesque and shitty, white supremacists were still out there being awful shitbags, gun violence was still prevelant, we were still bombing innocents, these things are not unique to Republicans, Democrats may be against them in an abstract way but they do nothing to actually put a stop to any of it, they seem to actively engage in the shitty behavior themselves sometimes, a la Obama's deportations.
Democrats are a Brunch party. Get into power so everyone can go back to brunch and feel safe and comfortable ignoring the glaring issues in American society.
All you're doing is exposing how clueless you are to the lives of everyday people that are actually affected by policy changes.
The amount of political ignorance that you have to hold to maintain that there is no meaningful difference between the parties or accomplishments done by the Democratic party is mind-blowing.
Is the party disappointing? Immensely so.
Are they useless and/or effectively the same as Republicans? No, and this isn't even up for debate in a sane world.
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On October 24 2020 00:22 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2020 00:17 Nebuchad wrote:
I don't know how you guys manage to have this discussion over and over again without ever discussing how we escape the neoliberal political framework. The first step is simple, and we've said it countless times. Get rid of the Electoral College.
I'll confess that reading that it's simple to get rid of the electoral college was a bit funny.
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On October 24 2020 00:49 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2020 00:22 Stratos_speAr wrote:On October 24 2020 00:17 Nebuchad wrote:
I don't know how you guys manage to have this discussion over and over again without ever discussing how we escape the neoliberal political framework. The first step is simple, and we've said it countless times. Get rid of the Electoral College. I'll confess that reading that it's simple to get rid of the electoral college was a bit funny.
Heh, I may have phrased it a bit flippantly.
Knowing what to do is simple, but actually doing it is very difficult (politically).
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On October 24 2020 00:46 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2020 00:42 Zambrah wrote:On October 24 2020 00:37 Stratos_speAr wrote:On October 24 2020 00:28 Zambrah wrote:On October 24 2020 00:08 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 23 2020 21:49 Zambrah wrote:On October 23 2020 20:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 23 2020 20:09 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 23 2020 20:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 23 2020 20:04 Biff The Understudy wrote:
[quote]
Yes and the reality is that right now those are the only options. Incorrect. They are the only two with acceptable ranges of outcomes for you (and people that share that belief). Whatever man, this is a loss of time. Go write "Grand socialist revolution!!!!" on your ballot, that's gonna make people's life better. You can be frustrated about your errors if you like, but I'd appreciate you accurately describing what you're arguing against. EDIT: Important note:ACA is not enough, so you won't chose between ACA and nothing. ACA is most likely lost regardless of the outcome of the election. Barrett (who Biden is not opposed to and described as a "very fine person") is set to be confirmed before the election and SCOTUS will take up the related case before inauguration (presuming there is one). This is the sort of thing that makes the "Lul vote dem its all you have" so fucking wretched feeling. They're just NOT as different as theyre made out to be, the differences between them are overblown. Trump has been awful but my life hasnt been that different between a Trump presidency and an Obama presidency. Biden will keep agreeing with Republican shit, things will get a modicum better, and then a Republican will win, and things will get two modicum worse, and then that cycle repeats ad fucking nauseum. But hey, when we get New Hitler vs. Democrat Bland Trump in the probably-not-so-distant-future I look forward to being told how we have to rally around Democrat Bland Trump and that if we wanted someone else we should've... voted for someone else in a primary where the Democrats are legally allowed to pick whoever they want regardless of votes. Compelling. Of course your life hasn't been that different. I bet for many people in Germany life was not so different in 1935 than it was in 1931. For the dozens of millions of people who got coverage because of the ACA, the difference is quite fucking radical though. It's not because YOU are not a gay person in the military, or a woman needing an abortion, or a poor person with pre-existing condition that can't afford an insurance that none of it matters. It's for those we vote. Please, enlighten me, when the Republicans have their 6-3 majority on the Supreme Court and Biden refuses to add justices, what has voting accomplished for the women who need access to abortions? To people who rely on the ACA? Fuck all, because your "incremental progress" bullshit obviously is not functioning in America. So yes, keep believing America's problems are solved by the likes of Joe Biden and maybe in 200+ years Americans might be able to get an abortion again after compromising with the Neo-Republican party! The ACA was meaningful incremental progress enacted by a more conservative Democratic bloc than what would be in Congress were the Democrats to win the White House and Senate this year. This is the same kind of historical ignorance that people show towards economic regulations. "When has incremental progress ever helped me?!?!" All the time. Literally all the time. Most legislative gains in terms of rights for women, POC, workers, education, healthcare access, environmental regulations, etc. etc. etc. were compromises from an initially more progressive stance that were enacted within the system. Sure, you can protest outside of the system to create external pressure, you can push to reshape the system so that it is better, but you can't just throw a temper tantrum and refuse to work within the system. People's lives are actually affected every day by that system, regardless of your moral stance on working within it or not. All that time that you sit comfortably in your privilege, refusing to act within the system because you don't like it, results in countless people's lives being deeply affected or ended when working within the system could have helped them. I'll be frank, this is fucking stupid, I vote, I've always voted, and I'll continue to vote on the extremely off chance something might actually happen. My issue is pretending that that lone simple fucking action is going to do anything, its ignorant as hell, rights for POCs is a great example, where would we be if, say Lincoln said, "well, we have to work with the Confederates! We'll slowly fade out slavery over time," or if MLK just didn't happen. War. Riots. REAL action that didn't rely on duplicitous politicians finding it within their hearts to throw the average person a bone. Hell we'd still be living under a god damned MONARCHY if working within the system was the only way to make change happen. No one here has said it is the only way. Literally no one. This is a lazy, half-assed strawman you made to try to shift the goal posts.
Does it change my point that even in some of your examples the way change actually happened was through things like riots and the bloodiest war in American history?
American history is full of examples where action had to be taken beyond voting, if youre pro-riots, etc. in order to accomplish things like more pro-active climate change, dealing with police brutality properly, making sure people are paid living wages, everyone have proper actual healthcare, etc. then we probably don't disagree on much more than how effective voting is.
That being said voting is relying on AMERICAN POLITICIANS to do things for the betterment of the populace, and when we encounter things like Biden's climate plans that extend into 2050 I have to ask how you expect these slow changes to hold up to the swift brutal reprisals they'll experience when the next Republican is in office? 2050 might work out if Biden or a Democrat would be president for 30 years, but let's be honest, that isn't going to happen and Republicans are infinitely more efficient at this back and forth than the Democrats are, so what kind of time scale are we really looking at when we factor in Democrats incremental progress + Republican fuckery? Probably beyond the lifespan of anyone on this forum.
All you're doing is exposing how clueless you are to the lives of everyday people that are actually affected by policy changes.
The amount of political ignorance that you have to hold to maintain that there is no meaningful difference between the parties or accomplishments done by the Democratic party is mind-blowing.
Is the party disappointing? Immensely so.
Are they useless and/or effectively the same as Republicans? No, and this isn't even up for debate in a sane world.
No you?
When we have that 6-3 Supreme Court that gets rid of the ACA and Roe v Wade we can tally up just how great the Democrats have been for the US in the last twenty years.
EDIT: To be SLIGHTLY less of a dismissive asshole, I've seen people here argue for pages on pages with Doodsmack about fucking Hunter Biden, so the idea that this "isnt even up for debate" is silly.
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On October 24 2020 00:50 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2020 00:49 Nebuchad wrote:On October 24 2020 00:22 Stratos_speAr wrote:On October 24 2020 00:17 Nebuchad wrote:
I don't know how you guys manage to have this discussion over and over again without ever discussing how we escape the neoliberal political framework. The first step is simple, and we've said it countless times. Get rid of the Electoral College. I'll confess that reading that it's simple to get rid of the electoral college was a bit funny. Heh, I may have phrased it a bit flippantly. Knowing what to do is simple, but actually doing it is very difficult (politically).
In my opinion the kind of people that would get rid of the electoral college are the kind of people that can't get in power right now because of the neoliberal political framework.
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I think the periods of US history where "progress" occurred were full of acts performed both within and outside "the system," which is why I'm not especially keen on that approach to the problem in the first place.
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Northern Ireland27236 Posts
On October 24 2020 00:17 Nebuchad wrote:
I don't know how you guys manage to have this discussion over and over again without ever discussing how we escape the neoliberal political framework.
It’s a easy, you just escape the neoliberal political framework.
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On October 24 2020 00:52 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2020 00:46 Stratos_speAr wrote:On October 24 2020 00:42 Zambrah wrote:On October 24 2020 00:37 Stratos_speAr wrote:On October 24 2020 00:28 Zambrah wrote:On October 24 2020 00:08 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 23 2020 21:49 Zambrah wrote:On October 23 2020 20:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 23 2020 20:09 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 23 2020 20:07 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
Incorrect. They are the only two with acceptable ranges of outcomes for you (and people that share that belief). Whatever man, this is a loss of time. Go write "Grand socialist revolution!!!!" on your ballot, that's gonna make people's life better. You can be frustrated about your errors if you like, but I'd appreciate you accurately describing what you're arguing against. EDIT: Important note:ACA is not enough, so you won't chose between ACA and nothing. ACA is most likely lost regardless of the outcome of the election. Barrett (who Biden is not opposed to and described as a "very fine person") is set to be confirmed before the election and SCOTUS will take up the related case before inauguration (presuming there is one). This is the sort of thing that makes the "Lul vote dem its all you have" so fucking wretched feeling. They're just NOT as different as theyre made out to be, the differences between them are overblown. Trump has been awful but my life hasnt been that different between a Trump presidency and an Obama presidency. Biden will keep agreeing with Republican shit, things will get a modicum better, and then a Republican will win, and things will get two modicum worse, and then that cycle repeats ad fucking nauseum. But hey, when we get New Hitler vs. Democrat Bland Trump in the probably-not-so-distant-future I look forward to being told how we have to rally around Democrat Bland Trump and that if we wanted someone else we should've... voted for someone else in a primary where the Democrats are legally allowed to pick whoever they want regardless of votes. Compelling. Of course your life hasn't been that different. I bet for many people in Germany life was not so different in 1935 than it was in 1931. For the dozens of millions of people who got coverage because of the ACA, the difference is quite fucking radical though. It's not because YOU are not a gay person in the military, or a woman needing an abortion, or a poor person with pre-existing condition that can't afford an insurance that none of it matters. It's for those we vote. Please, enlighten me, when the Republicans have their 6-3 majority on the Supreme Court and Biden refuses to add justices, what has voting accomplished for the women who need access to abortions? To people who rely on the ACA? Fuck all, because your "incremental progress" bullshit obviously is not functioning in America. So yes, keep believing America's problems are solved by the likes of Joe Biden and maybe in 200+ years Americans might be able to get an abortion again after compromising with the Neo-Republican party! The ACA was meaningful incremental progress enacted by a more conservative Democratic bloc than what would be in Congress were the Democrats to win the White House and Senate this year. This is the same kind of historical ignorance that people show towards economic regulations. "When has incremental progress ever helped me?!?!" All the time. Literally all the time. Most legislative gains in terms of rights for women, POC, workers, education, healthcare access, environmental regulations, etc. etc. etc. were compromises from an initially more progressive stance that were enacted within the system. Sure, you can protest outside of the system to create external pressure, you can push to reshape the system so that it is better, but you can't just throw a temper tantrum and refuse to work within the system. People's lives are actually affected every day by that system, regardless of your moral stance on working within it or not. All that time that you sit comfortably in your privilege, refusing to act within the system because you don't like it, results in countless people's lives being deeply affected or ended when working within the system could have helped them. I'll be frank, this is fucking stupid, I vote, I've always voted, and I'll continue to vote on the extremely off chance something might actually happen. My issue is pretending that that lone simple fucking action is going to do anything, its ignorant as hell, rights for POCs is a great example, where would we be if, say Lincoln said, "well, we have to work with the Confederates! We'll slowly fade out slavery over time," or if MLK just didn't happen. War. Riots. REAL action that didn't rely on duplicitous politicians finding it within their hearts to throw the average person a bone. Hell we'd still be living under a god damned MONARCHY if working within the system was the only way to make change happen. No one here has said it is the only way. Literally no one. This is a lazy, half-assed strawman you made to try to shift the goal posts. Does it change my point that even in some of your examples the way change actually happened was through things like riots and the bloodiest war in American history? American history is full of examples where action had to be taken beyond voting, if youre pro-riots, etc. in order to accomplish things like more pro-active climate change, dealing with police brutality properly, making sure people are paid living wages, everyone have proper actual healthcare, etc. then we probably don't disagree on much more than how effective voting is. That being said voting is relying on AMERICAN POLITICIANS to do things for the betterment of the populace, and when we encounter things like Biden's climate plans that extend into 2050 I have to ask how you expect these slow changes to hold up to the swift brutal reprisals they'll experience when the next Republican is in office? 2050 might work out if Biden or a Democrat would be president for 30 years, but let's be honest, that isn't going to happen and Republicans are infinitely more efficient at this back and forth than the Democrats are, so what kind of time scale are we really looking at when we factor in Democrats incremental progress + Republican fuckery? Probably beyond the lifespan of anyone on this forum.
I'm just going to quote myself and highlight the important points in my post that answer your question:
All the time. Literally all the time. **Most** LEGISLATIVE gains in terms of rights for women, POC, workers, education, healthcare access, environmental regulations, etc. etc. etc. were compromises from an initially more progressive stance that were enacted within the system.
Sure, you can ***protest outside of the system to create external pressure, you can push to reshape the system so that it is better***, but you can't just throw a temper tantrum and refuse to work within the system. People's lives are actually affected every day by that system, regardless of your moral stance on working within it or not. All that time that you sit comfortably in your privilege, refusing to act within the system because you don't like it, results in countless people's lives being deeply affected or ended when working within the system could have helped them.
Things like the Civil Rights Act still relied on legislative action and largely working within the system. Protests and riots created public/political pressure. They didn't actually change the system in-and-of-itself.
The Civil War is a unique example and is also a war that was instigated by the people trying to maintain the system instead of the people trying to change it, so it is pretty hard to talk about the Civil War in relation to this discussion.
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