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On October 21 2019 22:18 abuse wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2019 22:07 travis wrote:
Unfortunately if someone is posting on any kind of public forum or social media from within China, you can't even trust that it's their real opinion anymore. Anyone in China kinda needs to play the "no, it's actually me that has the most support for our great nation!" game. They are literally being rated on it, and their quality of life depends on it. It's very sad. I hope we can stave off this kind of oppressive system from spreading to the west.
But I am worried we won't able to.... It does kind of feel like people are now recognizing how big China's ambitions are as a whole. What happens next is up for grabs, but if major companies keep sucking on China's cucumber, then it's not going to end well indeed. Are people ok with China dictating the rules for the entire world? The next few years will tell.
The problem is, is the rest of the world willing to lower their standard of living considerably to fight Chinas economic domination?
The reason the western world still enjoy such a "booming" economy is because of China, if China shuts us out our economy will plummet and we would have to adapt our lifestyles to that. Also another big reason is that China barely pay their employees to mass produce products that we can buy cheaply here in the western world. Therefore a decent standard of living is possible for quite low cost for ys but that is only possible as long as China lends their cheap workforce to make wares for us.
It is not an exaggeration to state that China is the backbone for our luxurious living, they own us and they know it.
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Northern Ireland23732 Posts
On October 21 2019 22:27 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2019 22:18 abuse wrote:On October 21 2019 22:07 travis wrote:
Unfortunately if someone is posting on any kind of public forum or social media from within China, you can't even trust that it's their real opinion anymore. Anyone in China kinda needs to play the "no, it's actually me that has the most support for our great nation!" game. They are literally being rated on it, and their quality of life depends on it. It's very sad. I hope we can stave off this kind of oppressive system from spreading to the west.
But I am worried we won't able to.... It does kind of feel like people are now recognizing how big China's ambitions are as a whole. What happens next is up for grabs, but if major companies keep sucking on China's cucumber, then it's not going to end well indeed. Are people ok with China dictating the rules for the entire world? The next few years will tell. The problem is, is the rest of the world willing to lower their standard of living considerably to fight Chinas economic domination? The reason the western world still enjoy such a "booming" economy is because of China, if China shuts us out our economy will plummet and we would have to adapt our lifestyles to that. Also another big reason is that China barely pay their employees to mass produce products that we can buy cheaply here in the western world. Therefore a decent standard of living is possible for quite low cost for ys but that is only possible as long as China lends their cheap workforce to make wares for us. It is not an exaggeration to state that China is the backbone for our luxurious living, they own us and they know it.
Indeed. We want to have it all in the West, have cheap stuff but not really question why it’s so cheap.
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On October 21 2019 22:27 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2019 22:18 abuse wrote:On October 21 2019 22:07 travis wrote:
Unfortunately if someone is posting on any kind of public forum or social media from within China, you can't even trust that it's their real opinion anymore. Anyone in China kinda needs to play the "no, it's actually me that has the most support for our great nation!" game. They are literally being rated on it, and their quality of life depends on it. It's very sad. I hope we can stave off this kind of oppressive system from spreading to the west.
But I am worried we won't able to.... It does kind of feel like people are now recognizing how big China's ambitions are as a whole. What happens next is up for grabs, but if major companies keep sucking on China's cucumber, then it's not going to end well indeed. Are people ok with China dictating the rules for the entire world? The next few years will tell. The problem is, is the rest of the world willing to lower their standard of living considerably to fight Chinas economic domination? The reason the western world still enjoy such a "booming" economy is because of China, if China shuts us out our economy will plummet and we would have to adapt our lifestyles to that. Also another big reason is that China barely pay their employees to mass produce products that we can buy cheaply here in the western world. Therefore a decent standard of living is possible for quite low cost for ys but that is only possible as long as China lends their cheap workforce to make wares for us. It is not an exaggeration to state that China is the backbone for our luxurious living, they own us and they know it.
Move the factories out of China to other countries, problem solved.
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Northern Ireland23732 Posts
On October 21 2019 23:09 zenist wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2019 22:27 Shuffleblade wrote:On October 21 2019 22:18 abuse wrote:On October 21 2019 22:07 travis wrote:
Unfortunately if someone is posting on any kind of public forum or social media from within China, you can't even trust that it's their real opinion anymore. Anyone in China kinda needs to play the "no, it's actually me that has the most support for our great nation!" game. They are literally being rated on it, and their quality of life depends on it. It's very sad. I hope we can stave off this kind of oppressive system from spreading to the west.
But I am worried we won't able to.... It does kind of feel like people are now recognizing how big China's ambitions are as a whole. What happens next is up for grabs, but if major companies keep sucking on China's cucumber, then it's not going to end well indeed. Are people ok with China dictating the rules for the entire world? The next few years will tell. The problem is, is the rest of the world willing to lower their standard of living considerably to fight Chinas economic domination? The reason the western world still enjoy such a "booming" economy is because of China, if China shuts us out our economy will plummet and we would have to adapt our lifestyles to that. Also another big reason is that China barely pay their employees to mass produce products that we can buy cheaply here in the western world. Therefore a decent standard of living is possible for quite low cost for ys but that is only possible as long as China lends their cheap workforce to make wares for us. It is not an exaggeration to state that China is the backbone for our luxurious living, they own us and they know it. Move the factories out of China to other countries, problem solved.
All those countries that have the combination of Chinese technical expertise plus a population willing to work for relatively low wages?
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On October 21 2019 23:09 zenist wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2019 22:27 Shuffleblade wrote:On October 21 2019 22:18 abuse wrote:On October 21 2019 22:07 travis wrote:
Unfortunately if someone is posting on any kind of public forum or social media from within China, you can't even trust that it's their real opinion anymore. Anyone in China kinda needs to play the "no, it's actually me that has the most support for our great nation!" game. They are literally being rated on it, and their quality of life depends on it. It's very sad. I hope we can stave off this kind of oppressive system from spreading to the west.
But I am worried we won't able to.... It does kind of feel like people are now recognizing how big China's ambitions are as a whole. What happens next is up for grabs, but if major companies keep sucking on China's cucumber, then it's not going to end well indeed. Are people ok with China dictating the rules for the entire world? The next few years will tell. The problem is, is the rest of the world willing to lower their standard of living considerably to fight Chinas economic domination? The reason the western world still enjoy such a "booming" economy is because of China, if China shuts us out our economy will plummet and we would have to adapt our lifestyles to that. Also another big reason is that China barely pay their employees to mass produce products that we can buy cheaply here in the western world. Therefore a decent standard of living is possible for quite low cost for ys but that is only possible as long as China lends their cheap workforce to make wares for us. It is not an exaggeration to state that China is the backbone for our luxurious living, they own us and they know it. Move the factories out of China to other countries, problem solved.
Sure. Move the factories back to Europe/ NA, pay them minimum wage'ish and boom, your next Iphone costs 4000 $
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On October 21 2019 23:19 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2019 23:09 zenist wrote:On October 21 2019 22:27 Shuffleblade wrote:On October 21 2019 22:18 abuse wrote:On October 21 2019 22:07 travis wrote:
Unfortunately if someone is posting on any kind of public forum or social media from within China, you can't even trust that it's their real opinion anymore. Anyone in China kinda needs to play the "no, it's actually me that has the most support for our great nation!" game. They are literally being rated on it, and their quality of life depends on it. It's very sad. I hope we can stave off this kind of oppressive system from spreading to the west.
But I am worried we won't able to.... It does kind of feel like people are now recognizing how big China's ambitions are as a whole. What happens next is up for grabs, but if major companies keep sucking on China's cucumber, then it's not going to end well indeed. Are people ok with China dictating the rules for the entire world? The next few years will tell. The problem is, is the rest of the world willing to lower their standard of living considerably to fight Chinas economic domination? The reason the western world still enjoy such a "booming" economy is because of China, if China shuts us out our economy will plummet and we would have to adapt our lifestyles to that. Also another big reason is that China barely pay their employees to mass produce products that we can buy cheaply here in the western world. Therefore a decent standard of living is possible for quite low cost for ys but that is only possible as long as China lends their cheap workforce to make wares for us. It is not an exaggeration to state that China is the backbone for our luxurious living, they own us and they know it. Move the factories out of China to other countries, problem solved. All those countries that have the combination of Chinese technical expertise plus a population willing to work for relatively low wages?
Technical expertise can be quickly learned and there are plenty of countries with wages lower than China.
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On October 21 2019 23:22 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2019 23:09 zenist wrote:On October 21 2019 22:27 Shuffleblade wrote:On October 21 2019 22:18 abuse wrote:On October 21 2019 22:07 travis wrote:
Unfortunately if someone is posting on any kind of public forum or social media from within China, you can't even trust that it's their real opinion anymore. Anyone in China kinda needs to play the "no, it's actually me that has the most support for our great nation!" game. They are literally being rated on it, and their quality of life depends on it. It's very sad. I hope we can stave off this kind of oppressive system from spreading to the west.
But I am worried we won't able to.... It does kind of feel like people are now recognizing how big China's ambitions are as a whole. What happens next is up for grabs, but if major companies keep sucking on China's cucumber, then it's not going to end well indeed. Are people ok with China dictating the rules for the entire world? The next few years will tell. The problem is, is the rest of the world willing to lower their standard of living considerably to fight Chinas economic domination? The reason the western world still enjoy such a "booming" economy is because of China, if China shuts us out our economy will plummet and we would have to adapt our lifestyles to that. Also another big reason is that China barely pay their employees to mass produce products that we can buy cheaply here in the western world. Therefore a decent standard of living is possible for quite low cost for ys but that is only possible as long as China lends their cheap workforce to make wares for us. It is not an exaggeration to state that China is the backbone for our luxurious living, they own us and they know it. Move the factories out of China to other countries, problem solved. Sure. Move the factories back to Europe/ NA, pay them minimum wage'ish and boom, your next Iphone costs 4000 $ It wouldn't be that much of a markup. In terms of production cost, only a small proportion in cost in in labour. Most of the markup is just Apple getting a significant profit margin and paying off marketing costs. There are loads of technically excellent phones on the same level as or better than Apple's products nowadays, some indeed made in China and owned by Chinese companies, but if Samsung's experience is anything to go by, moving out of China will barely change production costs. But if you can save 5% in production costs, why wouldn't a company do so, assuming no downsides?
As it is, it will be low cost products which would be affected by wage costs, like clothes and plastic manufacturing, but not to the degree that they will cost 4 times less. As it is low value production is being shifted out of China and into places like Vietnam and India, due to rising cost of Chinese labour. But that's simply another matter.
It isn't factories in China which are causing companies to bow down to Chinese political interests, but the Chinese market themselves. Blizzard didn't decide to crack down on blitzchung (who I have no idea if he received his prize money in the end) because Blizzard has factories there, but because the potential of the Chinese market is huge. How should or should other countries be able to enact legislation to prevent the Chinese government from affecting political expression from private companies? Would consumers in other countries be able to do so? As it is, both the NBA and Blizzard decision making seem to see the Chinese market as more important than the western market.
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On October 21 2019 20:55 abuse wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2019 20:49 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On October 21 2019 15:56 abuse wrote:On October 21 2019 02:36 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On October 21 2019 00:45 raga4ka wrote:
First of all riots were not dying down, they continued even worse if you follow the news there regularly. Second the mask ban is necessary to catch rioters and vandalists and arsonists and to discourage the continuation of this acts... A normal law in many asian countries like Singapore as well as western countries like the US.
The internet lounges and PC Bangs in the worst areas of Toronto all forbid wearing anything that covers one's face including any kind of hood. Very generally speaking, I support a face mask ban. does Toronto have face recognition cameras installed everywhere which are actively used and is Toronto known to make people disappear and then reappear again dead and naked in the river? If I were in such a place, I'd very much prefer to wear a mask, thank you. Toronto has a murder rate similar to New York State. In fact, last year Toronto's murder rate was slightly higher than New York City's murder rate. In the face of increased violent crime politicians have elected to increase street cameras throughout the city. https://torontosun.com/news/local-news/were-coming-for-you-ontario-funds-more-cctv-cameras-in-toronto-to-fight-gun-crime that's great, but does the Canadian government actually find people who they deem as Uncanadian, and have them disappear? EDIT: I didn't really mean regular murder rates. I meant more to the extent of there are several cases, just in the past few weeks, where pro-HKG people have disappeared, and then found tortured or dead, and for some reason all of the records of these people being on camera seem to have been lost after a certain point. Which coincidentally is the main reason why the protesters use masks (that, and because it's defense from many of the gasses that the police use). Not wearing your mask can literally be a life-or-death question.
if this is the kind of thing that is actually going on .. then it is a lawless situation of total anarchy where nothing is right and nothing is wrong.
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On October 22 2019 00:01 Dangermousecatdog wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2019 23:22 Harris1st wrote:On October 21 2019 23:09 zenist wrote:On October 21 2019 22:27 Shuffleblade wrote:On October 21 2019 22:18 abuse wrote:On October 21 2019 22:07 travis wrote:
Unfortunately if someone is posting on any kind of public forum or social media from within China, you can't even trust that it's their real opinion anymore. Anyone in China kinda needs to play the "no, it's actually me that has the most support for our great nation!" game. They are literally being rated on it, and their quality of life depends on it. It's very sad. I hope we can stave off this kind of oppressive system from spreading to the west.
But I am worried we won't able to.... It does kind of feel like people are now recognizing how big China's ambitions are as a whole. What happens next is up for grabs, but if major companies keep sucking on China's cucumber, then it's not going to end well indeed. Are people ok with China dictating the rules for the entire world? The next few years will tell. The problem is, is the rest of the world willing to lower their standard of living considerably to fight Chinas economic domination? The reason the western world still enjoy such a "booming" economy is because of China, if China shuts us out our economy will plummet and we would have to adapt our lifestyles to that. Also another big reason is that China barely pay their employees to mass produce products that we can buy cheaply here in the western world. Therefore a decent standard of living is possible for quite low cost for ys but that is only possible as long as China lends their cheap workforce to make wares for us. It is not an exaggeration to state that China is the backbone for our luxurious living, they own us and they know it. Move the factories out of China to other countries, problem solved. Sure. Move the factories back to Europe/ NA, pay them minimum wage'ish and boom, your next Iphone costs 4000 $ It wouldn't be that much of a markup. In terms of production cost, only a small proportion in cost in in labour. Most of the markup is just Apple getting a significant profit margin and paying off marketing costs. There are loads of technically excellent phones on the same level as or better than Apple's products nowadays, some indeed made in China and owned by Chinese companies, but if Samsung's experience is anything to go by, moving out of China will barely change production costs. But if you can save 5% in production costs, why wouldn't a company do so, assuming no downsides? As it is, it will be low cost products which would be affected by wage costs, like clothes and plastic manufacturing, but not to the degree that they will cost 4 times less. As it is low value production is being shifted out of China and into places like Vietnam and India, due to rising cost of Chinese labour. But that's simply another matter. It isn't factories in China which are causing companies to bow down to Chinese political interests, but the Chinese market themselves. Blizzard didn't decide to crack down on blitzchung (who I have no idea if he received his prize money in the end) because Blizzard has factories there, but because the potential of the Chinese market is huge. How should or should other countries be able to enact legislation to prevent the Chinese government from affecting political expression from private companies? Would consumers in other countries be able to do so? As it is, both the NBA and Blizzard decision making seem to see the Chinese market as more important than the western market.
Sorry but you really don't get the whole picture here, you think the reason China has economic power is only one factor? Nopez, wrong, there are a lot of reasons, the reason blizz in particular want to be friends with China is obviously the market but that is only their reason. Why do countries want to stay on the good side of China? That is mostly because of the cheap items you import from there.
You also miss the whole picture while looking at the example of mobile phones, sure moving the ensembling factory out of China will not make the Iphone for example jump up to 4000 $. BUT where will you get the parts for the iphone that the factory assembles? You really think Iphones just appear out of thin air, nope, you need multiple different raw materials and multiple different factories to produce the parts that can then be assembled. Almost all of this is now done in China for cheap, if you are going to do everyhting from scratch in europe (including mining the minerals) 4000 $ for an Iphone is actually not an unreasonable claim. Such is the terror of Chinas economic power.
Don't know if you missed Trumps proposed tariffs in regards to China, it actually effected technical components which are used in all current gaming consoles. Just because of added tariffs if the proposal would have been enacted a 25% increase in cost of the next playstation console was numbers that were discussed. And then it still would be much cheaper to take the increased cost than to try and produce these parts locally. That factories don't need laborers is a myth but biggest of all is how China is the source of a lot of the worlds raw materials.
For example China currently produce 65% of all the worlds iron, imagine if China would stop trading the rest of the world. The supply/demand from iron would go through the bloody atmosphere. Its not just a case "get it from somewhere else", there is no where else and even if it was China probably already owns that too.
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On October 22 2019 00:55 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2019 00:01 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On October 21 2019 23:22 Harris1st wrote:On October 21 2019 23:09 zenist wrote:On October 21 2019 22:27 Shuffleblade wrote:On October 21 2019 22:18 abuse wrote:On October 21 2019 22:07 travis wrote:
Unfortunately if someone is posting on any kind of public forum or social media from within China, you can't even trust that it's their real opinion anymore. Anyone in China kinda needs to play the "no, it's actually me that has the most support for our great nation!" game. They are literally being rated on it, and their quality of life depends on it. It's very sad. I hope we can stave off this kind of oppressive system from spreading to the west.
But I am worried we won't able to.... It does kind of feel like people are now recognizing how big China's ambitions are as a whole. What happens next is up for grabs, but if major companies keep sucking on China's cucumber, then it's not going to end well indeed. Are people ok with China dictating the rules for the entire world? The next few years will tell. The problem is, is the rest of the world willing to lower their standard of living considerably to fight Chinas economic domination? The reason the western world still enjoy such a "booming" economy is because of China, if China shuts us out our economy will plummet and we would have to adapt our lifestyles to that. Also another big reason is that China barely pay their employees to mass produce products that we can buy cheaply here in the western world. Therefore a decent standard of living is possible for quite low cost for ys but that is only possible as long as China lends their cheap workforce to make wares for us. It is not an exaggeration to state that China is the backbone for our luxurious living, they own us and they know it. Move the factories out of China to other countries, problem solved. Sure. Move the factories back to Europe/ NA, pay them minimum wage'ish and boom, your next Iphone costs 4000 $ It wouldn't be that much of a markup. In terms of production cost, only a small proportion in cost in in labour. Most of the markup is just Apple getting a significant profit margin and paying off marketing costs. There are loads of technically excellent phones on the same level as or better than Apple's products nowadays, some indeed made in China and owned by Chinese companies, but if Samsung's experience is anything to go by, moving out of China will barely change production costs. But if you can save 5% in production costs, why wouldn't a company do so, assuming no downsides? As it is, it will be low cost products which would be affected by wage costs, like clothes and plastic manufacturing, but not to the degree that they will cost 4 times less. As it is low value production is being shifted out of China and into places like Vietnam and India, due to rising cost of Chinese labour. But that's simply another matter. It isn't factories in China which are causing companies to bow down to Chinese political interests, but the Chinese market themselves. Blizzard didn't decide to crack down on blitzchung (who I have no idea if he received his prize money in the end) because Blizzard has factories there, but because the potential of the Chinese market is huge. How should or should other countries be able to enact legislation to prevent the Chinese government from affecting political expression from private companies? Would consumers in other countries be able to do so? As it is, both the NBA and Blizzard decision making seem to see the Chinese market as more important than the western market. Sorry but you really don't get the whole picture here, you think the reason China has economic power is only one factor? Nopez, wrong, there are a lot of reasons, the reason blizz in particular want to be friends with China is obviously the market but that is only their reason. Why do countries want to stay on the good side of China? That is mostly because of the cheap items you import from there. You also miss the whole picture while looking at the example of mobile phones, sure moving the ensembling factory out of China will not make the Iphone for example jump up to 4000 $. BUT where will you get the parts for the iphone that the factory assembles? You really think Iphones just appear out of thin air, nope, you need multiple different raw materials and multiple different factories to produce the parts that can then be assembled. Almost all of this is now done in China for cheap, if you are going to do everyhting from scratch in europe (including mining the minerals) 4000 $ for an Iphone is actually not an unreasonable claim. Such is the terror of Chinas economic power. Don't know if you missed Trumps proposed tariffs in regards to China, it actually effected technical components which are used in all current gaming consoles. Just because of added tariffs if the proposal would have been enacted a 25% increase in cost of the next playstation console was numbers that were discussed. And then it still would be much cheaper to take the increased cost than to try and produce these parts locally. That factories don't need laborers is a myth but biggest of all is how China is the source of a lot of the worlds raw materials. For example China currently produce 65% of all the worlds iron, imagine if China would stop trading the rest of the world. The supply/demand from iron would go through the bloody atmosphere. Its not just a case "get it from somewhere else", there is no where else and even if it was China probably already owns that too.
Either way it is better for the west to pull out of China then staying in.
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On October 21 2019 19:57 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2019 19:13 raga4ka wrote:On October 21 2019 18:44 abuse wrote:On October 21 2019 18:40 raga4ka wrote:On October 21 2019 18:21 Excludos wrote:On October 21 2019 16:46 meiji_emperor wrote:On October 21 2019 16:22 abuse wrote:On October 21 2019 00:45 raga4ka wrote:On October 15 2019 11:42 zenist wrote:
Regarding HK protest, it has been proven that many Chinese police have disguised themselves as protesters to conduct violence.
Regardless of violence though, you can't blame HKers for protesting because carrie lam (controlled by the communist party) made stupid move of barring masks. The movement was dying down after completely getting rid of the extradition bill.
This is a false statement, China doesn't gain anything by prolonging violence in Hong Kong and benefits only if Hong Kong moves on from the violence. First of all riots were not dying down, they continued even worse if you follow the news there regularly. Second the mask ban is necessary to catch rioters and vandalists and arsonists and to discourage the continuation of this acts... A normal law in many asian countries like Singapore as well as western countries like the US. I don't blame peaceful protesters, but I hope everyone who committed violence there would be dealt with the full extent of the law. I just can't support violence and vandalism: https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/politics/article/3033714/protesters-block-roads-during-illegal-march-hong-kong how the hell is it a "false statement"? There's tons of evidence out there. Yes China does gain anything by prolonging violence in HK. The worse the situation gets, the more reason they are to interefere in a more serious, military capacity. If China is successful in making the world see this as "HK people are the ones who are violent, and they are a danger to themselves, we're moving in to ensure HK's safety" then it's precisely the best possible outcome for China. There will never be any demonstrations or riots again. HK will be done. Stop exaggerating, you are taking an overly conspiratorial view of China's strategy. This will not be the last riot and there will be plenty more riots in the future, even after 2047 when HK autonomy ends. China is a country where over 100k protest (government acknowledge number btw, real number is higher) occur each year over government corruption or social justice issues. The only reason HK can protest is exactly because they're not part of China. These aren't conspiracy theories, these things have and will happen. Just because you choose to stick your head in the dirt doesn't make it less true. China is looking for excuses to send in the military, and to that end it benefits them greatly that the protests turn violent. You have to be unrealistically naive to believe otherwise from a government who runs concentration camps, harvest organs, kills politicians and regular people who voices their opinions against the current government, who runs a dystopian nation wide facial recognition system in pure 1984 fashion, and who runs their own people over with tanks and dumptrucks when they protest. 100k protests a year? Based on whose numbers? Even Chinese mainlanders who supports their government haven't attempted to pretend they can speak up against their own government. Highly unlikely at this point in time. China most of all cares about it's economical growth. With trade war at it's peak it won't attempt to do anything controversial. Even the Hong Kong government which is pro China aren't hinting at asking Beijing to interfere and are thinking that it won't come to it: "Hong Kong finance chief Paul Chan said it was unlikely Beijing would sent forces from mainland China to end Hong Kong’s pro-democracy movement. Photo: Winson Wong" https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/hong-kong-economy/article/3033764/hong-kong-finance-chief-paul-chan-touts-market China does care a huge part about their economical growth. But that's not the only thing they care about. Paying the world back for their "ultimate humiliation" is by far the most important thing it seems, economical growth is just the best way to make it happen. Also lol at the quote and article - Paul Chen must be the one deciding these matters. EDIT: How can you even think that China won't do anything controversial? Literally everything that is happening with Blitzchung, NBA, and all the other pressure China is doing. All of it is controversial. China doesn't have a problem with doing anything controversial, they just care about it being done in a way where people don't know they're involved. Territorial integrity and economical growth are the only 2 things that China really cares about, and will defend them by any means necessary. There is no master plan to humiliate the world for it's century of humiliation I don't know where people get that. China would sanction anyone supporting Hong Kong's autonomy, because it directly interferes with their interests, but it won't resort to escalating the situation with the army, because it doesn't need to. The rioters are not in a position to topple the Hong Kong government, Hong Kong is economically stable as the article I posted in my above post, the only step is for the police to take control of the situation by themselves. You seem so very sure about knowing everything about how everyone thinks. The protests matter in HK because it is a democracy, even if the people won't take matters in their own hands practically and do a full blown coup the stone is rolling to change the leadership in HK. If China won't allow for democracy in HK maybe other nations will intercede like the U.S. Either way the protest actually are in a position to make huge sweeping changes as soon as they receive their ballots. China could stop that though, if they get good enough of an excuse to intervene with their military. These matters are complex and its impossible for us "normal" people to know what is really going on behind the scenes.
I'm just following the situation closely from media sources, nothing so far indicates that China will use the military to interfere I can't tell what is going on behind the scenes.
On October 21 2019 21:47 Dangermousecatdog wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2019 20:27 Wombat_NI wrote:On October 21 2019 19:13 raga4ka wrote:On October 21 2019 18:44 abuse wrote:On October 21 2019 18:40 raga4ka wrote:On October 21 2019 18:21 Excludos wrote:On October 21 2019 16:46 meiji_emperor wrote:On October 21 2019 16:22 abuse wrote:On October 21 2019 00:45 raga4ka wrote:On October 15 2019 11:42 zenist wrote:
Regarding HK protest, it has been proven that many Chinese police have disguised themselves as protesters to conduct violence.
Regardless of violence though, you can't blame HKers for protesting because carrie lam (controlled by the communist party) made stupid move of barring masks. The movement was dying down after completely getting rid of the extradition bill.
This is a false statement, China doesn't gain anything by prolonging violence in Hong Kong and benefits only if Hong Kong moves on from the violence. First of all riots were not dying down, they continued even worse if you follow the news there regularly. Second the mask ban is necessary to catch rioters and vandalists and arsonists and to discourage the continuation of this acts... A normal law in many asian countries like Singapore as well as western countries like the US. I don't blame peaceful protesters, but I hope everyone who committed violence there would be dealt with the full extent of the law. I just can't support violence and vandalism: https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/politics/article/3033714/protesters-block-roads-during-illegal-march-hong-kong how the hell is it a "false statement"? There's tons of evidence out there. Yes China does gain anything by prolonging violence in HK. The worse the situation gets, the more reason they are to interefere in a more serious, military capacity. If China is successful in making the world see this as "HK people are the ones who are violent, and they are a danger to themselves, we're moving in to ensure HK's safety" then it's precisely the best possible outcome for China. There will never be any demonstrations or riots again. HK will be done. Stop exaggerating, you are taking an overly conspiratorial view of China's strategy. This will not be the last riot and there will be plenty more riots in the future, even after 2047 when HK autonomy ends. China is a country where over 100k protest (government acknowledge number btw, real number is higher) occur each year over government corruption or social justice issues. The only reason HK can protest is exactly because they're not part of China. These aren't conspiracy theories, these things have and will happen. Just because you choose to stick your head in the dirt doesn't make it less true. China is looking for excuses to send in the military, and to that end it benefits them greatly that the protests turn violent. You have to be unrealistically naive to believe otherwise from a government who runs concentration camps, harvest organs, kills politicians and regular people who voices their opinions against the current government, who runs a dystopian nation wide facial recognition system in pure 1984 fashion, and who runs their own people over with tanks and dumptrucks when they protest. 100k protests a year? Based on whose numbers? Even Chinese mainlanders who supports their government haven't attempted to pretend they can speak up against their own government. Highly unlikely at this point in time. China most of all cares about it's economical growth. With trade war at it's peak it won't attempt to do anything controversial. Even the Hong Kong government which is pro China aren't hinting at asking Beijing to interfere and are thinking that it won't come to it: "Hong Kong finance chief Paul Chan said it was unlikely Beijing would sent forces from mainland China to end Hong Kong’s pro-democracy movement. Photo: Winson Wong" https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/hong-kong-economy/article/3033764/hong-kong-finance-chief-paul-chan-touts-market China does care a huge part about their economical growth. But that's not the only thing they care about. Paying the world back for their "ultimate humiliation" is by far the most important thing it seems, economical growth is just the best way to make it happen. Also lol at the quote and article - Paul Chen must be the one deciding these matters. EDIT: How can you even think that China won't do anything controversial? Literally everything that is happening with Blitzchung, NBA, and all the other pressure China is doing. All of it is controversial. China doesn't have a problem with doing anything controversial, they just care about it being done in a way where people don't know they're involved. Territorial integrity and economical growth are the only 2 things that China really cares about, and will defend them by any means necessary. There is no master plan to humiliate the world for it's century of humiliation I don't know where people get that. China would sanction anyone supporting Hong Kong's autonomy, because it directly interferes with their interests, but it won't resort to escalating the situation with the army, because it doesn't need to. The rioters are not in a position to topple the Hong Kong government, Hong Kong is economically stable as the article I posted in my above post, the only step is for the police to take control of the situation by themselves. It certainly comes up a lot as a talking point when Chinese posters appear on threads such as this or elsewhere. Of course it doesn’t necessarily follow that the corridors of power are motivated by such sentiments. It could very well be the case that territorial integrity and economic growth are the sole motivators there, but the ‘avenging humiliation’ angle being quite useful to drum up support. It was raga4ka in the first place that brought up "century of humiliation" here, an entirely PRC concept pushed by the PRC, as a reason to oppose the protests in Hong Kong. Until then it was never mentioned, an unknown concept to this forum Funny how now that he says PRC doesn't care about it, when it so obviously does as part of its national mythmaking just so it can, successfully in raga4ka's case, to persuade people to their line of thinking.
I was saying that China doesn't want to take revenge on the world, which sounds stupid, they do feel offended when someone mentions that they support separation of Hong Kong from China. Just read the statement of the Chinese NBA manager, but not all the reasonings are listed.
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On October 22 2019 03:24 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2019 19:57 Shuffleblade wrote:On October 21 2019 19:13 raga4ka wrote:On October 21 2019 18:44 abuse wrote:On October 21 2019 18:40 raga4ka wrote:On October 21 2019 18:21 Excludos wrote:On October 21 2019 16:46 meiji_emperor wrote:On October 21 2019 16:22 abuse wrote:On October 21 2019 00:45 raga4ka wrote:On October 15 2019 11:42 zenist wrote:
Regarding HK protest, it has been proven that many Chinese police have disguised themselves as protesters to conduct violence.
Regardless of violence though, you can't blame HKers for protesting because carrie lam (controlled by the communist party) made stupid move of barring masks. The movement was dying down after completely getting rid of the extradition bill.
This is a false statement, China doesn't gain anything by prolonging violence in Hong Kong and benefits only if Hong Kong moves on from the violence. First of all riots were not dying down, they continued even worse if you follow the news there regularly. Second the mask ban is necessary to catch rioters and vandalists and arsonists and to discourage the continuation of this acts... A normal law in many asian countries like Singapore as well as western countries like the US. I don't blame peaceful protesters, but I hope everyone who committed violence there would be dealt with the full extent of the law. I just can't support violence and vandalism: https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/politics/article/3033714/protesters-block-roads-during-illegal-march-hong-kong how the hell is it a "false statement"? There's tons of evidence out there. Yes China does gain anything by prolonging violence in HK. The worse the situation gets, the more reason they are to interefere in a more serious, military capacity. If China is successful in making the world see this as "HK people are the ones who are violent, and they are a danger to themselves, we're moving in to ensure HK's safety" then it's precisely the best possible outcome for China. There will never be any demonstrations or riots again. HK will be done. Stop exaggerating, you are taking an overly conspiratorial view of China's strategy. This will not be the last riot and there will be plenty more riots in the future, even after 2047 when HK autonomy ends. China is a country where over 100k protest (government acknowledge number btw, real number is higher) occur each year over government corruption or social justice issues. The only reason HK can protest is exactly because they're not part of China. These aren't conspiracy theories, these things have and will happen. Just because you choose to stick your head in the dirt doesn't make it less true. China is looking for excuses to send in the military, and to that end it benefits them greatly that the protests turn violent. You have to be unrealistically naive to believe otherwise from a government who runs concentration camps, harvest organs, kills politicians and regular people who voices their opinions against the current government, who runs a dystopian nation wide facial recognition system in pure 1984 fashion, and who runs their own people over with tanks and dumptrucks when they protest. 100k protests a year? Based on whose numbers? Even Chinese mainlanders who supports their government haven't attempted to pretend they can speak up against their own government. Highly unlikely at this point in time. China most of all cares about it's economical growth. With trade war at it's peak it won't attempt to do anything controversial. Even the Hong Kong government which is pro China aren't hinting at asking Beijing to interfere and are thinking that it won't come to it: "Hong Kong finance chief Paul Chan said it was unlikely Beijing would sent forces from mainland China to end Hong Kong’s pro-democracy movement. Photo: Winson Wong" https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/hong-kong-economy/article/3033764/hong-kong-finance-chief-paul-chan-touts-market China does care a huge part about their economical growth. But that's not the only thing they care about. Paying the world back for their "ultimate humiliation" is by far the most important thing it seems, economical growth is just the best way to make it happen. Also lol at the quote and article - Paul Chen must be the one deciding these matters. EDIT: How can you even think that China won't do anything controversial? Literally everything that is happening with Blitzchung, NBA, and all the other pressure China is doing. All of it is controversial. China doesn't have a problem with doing anything controversial, they just care about it being done in a way where people don't know they're involved. Territorial integrity and economical growth are the only 2 things that China really cares about, and will defend them by any means necessary. There is no master plan to humiliate the world for it's century of humiliation I don't know where people get that. China would sanction anyone supporting Hong Kong's autonomy, because it directly interferes with their interests, but it won't resort to escalating the situation with the army, because it doesn't need to. The rioters are not in a position to topple the Hong Kong government, Hong Kong is economically stable as the article I posted in my above post, the only step is for the police to take control of the situation by themselves. You seem so very sure about knowing everything about how everyone thinks. The protests matter in HK because it is a democracy, even if the people won't take matters in their own hands practically and do a full blown coup the stone is rolling to change the leadership in HK. If China won't allow for democracy in HK maybe other nations will intercede like the U.S. Either way the protest actually are in a position to make huge sweeping changes as soon as they receive their ballots. China could stop that though, if they get good enough of an excuse to intervene with their military. These matters are complex and its impossible for us "normal" people to know what is really going on behind the scenes. I'm just following the situation closely from media sources, nothing so far indicates that China will use the military to interfere I can't tell what it's going behind the scenes. Show nested quote +On October 21 2019 21:47 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On October 21 2019 20:27 Wombat_NI wrote:On October 21 2019 19:13 raga4ka wrote:On October 21 2019 18:44 abuse wrote:On October 21 2019 18:40 raga4ka wrote:On October 21 2019 18:21 Excludos wrote:On October 21 2019 16:46 meiji_emperor wrote:On October 21 2019 16:22 abuse wrote:On October 21 2019 00:45 raga4ka wrote:[quote] This is a false statement, China doesn't gain anything by prolonging violence in Hong Kong and benefits only if Hong Kong moves on from the violence. First of all riots were not dying down, they continued even worse if you follow the news there regularly. Second the mask ban is necessary to catch rioters and vandalists and arsonists and to discourage the continuation of this acts... A normal law in many asian countries like Singapore as well as western countries like the US. I don't blame peaceful protesters, but I hope everyone who committed violence there would be dealt with the full extent of the law. I just can't support violence and vandalism: https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/politics/article/3033714/protesters-block-roads-during-illegal-march-hong-kong how the hell is it a "false statement"? There's tons of evidence out there. Yes China does gain anything by prolonging violence in HK. The worse the situation gets, the more reason they are to interefere in a more serious, military capacity. If China is successful in making the world see this as "HK people are the ones who are violent, and they are a danger to themselves, we're moving in to ensure HK's safety" then it's precisely the best possible outcome for China. There will never be any demonstrations or riots again. HK will be done. Stop exaggerating, you are taking an overly conspiratorial view of China's strategy. This will not be the last riot and there will be plenty more riots in the future, even after 2047 when HK autonomy ends. China is a country where over 100k protest (government acknowledge number btw, real number is higher) occur each year over government corruption or social justice issues. The only reason HK can protest is exactly because they're not part of China. These aren't conspiracy theories, these things have and will happen. Just because you choose to stick your head in the dirt doesn't make it less true. China is looking for excuses to send in the military, and to that end it benefits them greatly that the protests turn violent. You have to be unrealistically naive to believe otherwise from a government who runs concentration camps, harvest organs, kills politicians and regular people who voices their opinions against the current government, who runs a dystopian nation wide facial recognition system in pure 1984 fashion, and who runs their own people over with tanks and dumptrucks when they protest. 100k protests a year? Based on whose numbers? Even Chinese mainlanders who supports their government haven't attempted to pretend they can speak up against their own government. Highly unlikely at this point in time. China most of all cares about it's economical growth. With trade war at it's peak it won't attempt to do anything controversial. Even the Hong Kong government which is pro China aren't hinting at asking Beijing to interfere and are thinking that it won't come to it: "Hong Kong finance chief Paul Chan said it was unlikely Beijing would sent forces from mainland China to end Hong Kong’s pro-democracy movement. Photo: Winson Wong" https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/hong-kong-economy/article/3033764/hong-kong-finance-chief-paul-chan-touts-market China does care a huge part about their economical growth. But that's not the only thing they care about. Paying the world back for their "ultimate humiliation" is by far the most important thing it seems, economical growth is just the best way to make it happen. Also lol at the quote and article - Paul Chen must be the one deciding these matters. EDIT: How can you even think that China won't do anything controversial? Literally everything that is happening with Blitzchung, NBA, and all the other pressure China is doing. All of it is controversial. China doesn't have a problem with doing anything controversial, they just care about it being done in a way where people don't know they're involved. Territorial integrity and economical growth are the only 2 things that China really cares about, and will defend them by any means necessary. There is no master plan to humiliate the world for it's century of humiliation I don't know where people get that. China would sanction anyone supporting Hong Kong's autonomy, because it directly interferes with their interests, but it won't resort to escalating the situation with the army, because it doesn't need to. The rioters are not in a position to topple the Hong Kong government, Hong Kong is economically stable as the article I posted in my above post, the only step is for the police to take control of the situation by themselves. It certainly comes up a lot as a talking point when Chinese posters appear on threads such as this or elsewhere. Of course it doesn’t necessarily follow that the corridors of power are motivated by such sentiments. It could very well be the case that territorial integrity and economic growth are the sole motivators there, but the ‘avenging humiliation’ angle being quite useful to drum up support. It was raga4ka in the first place that brought up "century of humiliation" here, an entirely PRC concept pushed by the PRC, as a reason to oppose the protests in Hong Kong. Until then it was never mentioned, an unknown concept to this forum Funny how now that he says PRC doesn't care about it, when it so obviously does as part of its national mythmaking just so it can, successfully in raga4ka's case, to persuade people to their line of thinking. I was saying that China doesn't want to take revenge on the world, which sounds stupid, they do feel offended when someone mentions that they support separation of Hong Kong from China. Just read the statement of the Chinese NBA manager, but not all the reasonings are listed.
There were literally videos of PLA soldiers switching shifts in and out of Shenzhen.
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Given the historical context of Hong Kong and the national sentiment of China I actually think it's perfectly resonable for them to be upset when people on the outside support separation. Lets not forget how and under what circumstances the British acquired HK. Chinese people have a long memory.
Actual interference from the US or UK would likely be received extremely poorly and be counter productive as a whole.
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On October 22 2019 04:44 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
Given the historical context of Hong Kong and the national sentiment of China I actually think it's perfectly resonable for them to be upset when people on the outside support separation. Lets not forget how and under what circumstances the British acquired HK. Chinese people have a long memory.
Actual interference from the US or UK would likely be received extremely poorly and be counter productive as a whole.
Going off this hackneyed “historical” take, Taiwan would have a better claim to HK than mainland China.
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On October 22 2019 04:44 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
Given the historical context of Hong Kong and the national sentiment of China I actually think it's perfectly resonable for them to be upset when people on the outside support separation. Lets not forget how and under what circumstances the British acquired HK. Chinese people have a long memory.
Actual interference from the US or UK would likely be received extremely poorly and be counter productive as a whole.
Counter productive for whom? HK has been enjoying free speech and democracy and now live with a timer until those freedoms will be taken away. While at the same time it seems the dictator doesn't even respect the timer in the first place.
HK is without an army and officially a part of China, without foreign powers interceding on their behalf HK is doomed. HK need help to protect and/or extend the timer at the very least, no matter how much they protest or riot they cannot do it themselves all they can do is ask for help and pull attention to themselves.
Better not help since helping could be counterproductive is the laziest way of saying you are too lazy to care. Worst excuse ever.
I live in a free country, I can't even imagine the terror of knowing that my freedom of speech and democratic voice is being slowly derived of meaning and would ultimately be taken away from me.
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On October 22 2019 16:14 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2019 04:44 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
Given the historical context of Hong Kong and the national sentiment of China I actually think it's perfectly resonable for them to be upset when people on the outside support separation. Lets not forget how and under what circumstances the British acquired HK. Chinese people have a long memory.
Actual interference from the US or UK would likely be received extremely poorly and be counter productive as a whole. Counter productive for whom? HK has been enjoying free speech and democracy and now live with a timer until those freedoms will be taken away. While at the same time it seems the dictator doesn't even respect the timer in the first place. HK is without an army and officially a part of China, without foreign powers interceding on their behalf HK is doomed. HK need help to protect and/or extend the timer at the very least, no matter how much they protest or riot they cannot do it themselves all they can do is ask for help and pull attention to themselves. Better not help since helping could be counterproductive is the laziest way of saying you are too lazy to care. Worst excuse ever. I live in a free country, I can't even imagine the terror of knowing that my freedom of speech and democratic voice is being slowly derived of meaning and would ultimately be taken away from me.
The backstory of the whole situation is that the west (UK/US) were trading with China. But the west had nothing the Chinese wanted and demanded payment in silver.
To counteract this the British started selling opium to China starting a pandemic of drug use. The Chinese tried to stop it and the British declared war on them and stomped them into the ground, because they didn't want to get feed drugs. Later on the US also stomped the Chinese.
During these wars the UK first annexed parts of HK and finally forced the Chinese to agree to a "lease" for the rest of what is now HK for 100 years.
Quite clearly the west were the baddies in this scenario.
Understandably the citizens of HK, having lived under British rule for 156 years, are used to democracy and their own ideology. But HK is quite clearly Chinese.
I think it's commendable to take a stand for what you believe in and how you want your future to be.
I also think that China is not out to repay "a century of humiliation". But I don't think that means they haven't forgotten or that their efforts to become a superpower doesn't have a strong purpose of never becoming the victim again.
So if you look at it from the Chinese perspective with their history, specifically about HK, and their general feelings on involvement in political affairs I think other (western) power interceding on HK's behalf would be taken very, very badly. As bad as it is right now China knows that the rest of the world (and their own population) is watching.
But if you decide to make it "personal"... Want to bet that China is up for a diplomatic/economic version of the Opium Wars version III and are willing to cede HK? Not a bet I would like.
And yes, I think this means that HK is probably "doomed" in the long run. But honestly it's a global world and as harsh as it is if you want to live in the UK you can move away from China.
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On October 21 2019 23:19 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2019 23:09 zenist wrote:On October 21 2019 22:27 Shuffleblade wrote:On October 21 2019 22:18 abuse wrote:On October 21 2019 22:07 travis wrote:
Unfortunately if someone is posting on any kind of public forum or social media from within China, you can't even trust that it's their real opinion anymore. Anyone in China kinda needs to play the "no, it's actually me that has the most support for our great nation!" game. They are literally being rated on it, and their quality of life depends on it. It's very sad. I hope we can stave off this kind of oppressive system from spreading to the west.
But I am worried we won't able to.... It does kind of feel like people are now recognizing how big China's ambitions are as a whole. What happens next is up for grabs, but if major companies keep sucking on China's cucumber, then it's not going to end well indeed. Are people ok with China dictating the rules for the entire world? The next few years will tell. The problem is, is the rest of the world willing to lower their standard of living considerably to fight Chinas economic domination? The reason the western world still enjoy such a "booming" economy is because of China, if China shuts us out our economy will plummet and we would have to adapt our lifestyles to that. Also another big reason is that China barely pay their employees to mass produce products that we can buy cheaply here in the western world. Therefore a decent standard of living is possible for quite low cost for ys but that is only possible as long as China lends their cheap workforce to make wares for us. It is not an exaggeration to state that China is the backbone for our luxurious living, they own us and they know it. Move the factories out of China to other countries, problem solved. All those countries that have the combination of Chinese technical expertise plus a population willing to work for relatively low wages?
fun things but factories are moving out of china to the south (and/or deeper in china) where the population will work for lower wages
The dependancy on china is an illusion
I've also seen a comment earlier on the 100k protests that happen every year in china, let me clarify something
those protests are usually aiming to remove a low ranking official for corruptions
There are no protests against the CPC itself
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Only a few more days until a great number of people definitely get kicked out of Blizzcon! Free Hong Kong! To those of you intending to protest at Blizzcon, god speed! Make a mess on my behalf!
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I’m prob out of step with where this conversation is at but it’ll be interesting to see how Blizz treats the next political statement made by a player. Say if someone made a statement about the treatment of black people in the US by the police, is Blizz going to stick by their convictions and ban them? Will be interesting.
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First sponsor to pull out of a hearthstone tournament
Blizzard lost a big sponsor after the Hong Kong outcry: Mitsubishi
Blizzard Entertainment may be feeling the effects of its controversial ban of Hong Kong Hearthstone player Ng “Blitzchung” Wai Chung for quite some time. The company not only faced a widespread player boycott, condemnations from US lawmakers, and numerous employee walkouts over the decision, but it also lost a key sponsor of its international gaming competitions.
According to The Daily Beast, Mitsubishi decided to pull sponsorships of Blizzard e-sports events after the company banned Wai Chung for voicing support for the Hong Kong protesters in a televised post-game interview earlier this month. Reddit users first noticed the disappearance of the Mitsubishi logo during a recent Asia Pacific Hearthstone tournament, and the company confirmed its decision to pull its sponsorship to The Daily Beast.
https://www.theverge.com/2019/10/29/20939236/blizzard-china-hong-kong-protests-mitsubishi-hearthstone-ban-sponsorship-pulled
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EPT
