Quote your first post on TL! - Page 13

On November 20 2003 18:36 NeverTheEndlessWiz wrote:
Lets note the following:
-fastest reaver/shuttle and DT/shuttle both are done at 530 and toss has 1-2 goons
-mine research done at 500
-assumming the map is LT; far distance to travel time in order to get to toss main is 30 secs and for close spots is 10 sec
-ebay done at 530 (34 ebay, turrets up at 600). i like to build ebay behind toss main to lift and use 2 SCVs to find out how many goons toss has. The number of goons give u a good idea what toss is doing (teching 1-3 goons/expanding 2-5 goons/2 standard gating 4-6 goons)
-basically there are 3 types of 2 fact builds
-all 3 uses up to 2-4 rines
-mine + speed research are done at 530
-mine + seige research are done at 540 (lack of money)
-u need mininal 2 vults (6 mines planted around CC CORRECTLY),3 turrets (1 at choke pt and 2 at CC) and 1 tank to stop reaver or dt drops
-turrets alone won't make the cut; smart toss drop DT at blind spots of ur main.As for reaver, its range is used to pick ur SCVs off with some luck.

1)
1st tank=>6 vults =>2rd tank (players who use it;nada,heaven)
get mine + speed
attack once mine reasearch is done (timing is 500)

2)
vult from fact and tank fact with addon (players who use it;elky,assem,gundam)
get mine + seige
attack 1 tank,1 vult,2-4 rines (timing is 445)

3)
3 tanks=>3 vults (players who use it;joyo-remember wcg?)
attack once have 2nd tank (timing is 500)
get mine + speed

I find all 3 work well but all have their own weaknesses

1)
-strong vs all teching toss due to speed of vults and plenty of mines to use (mine placement is impt through)
-weak vs standard 2 gate goon ob toss or 1 gate goon ob conditional expand

Timing is impt.If u and toss are close spots, attacking straight isn't a good idea so u need to defend first as the drop comes fast (shuttle leaves base at 530 and reaches u at 540). Watch the game breeze vs nada on LT 3 vs 12. The blessing is that mines are wonderful at defending against such early drops and also it gives u the option to attack toss later (even through its delayed).Note that even ur mine+ speed research are done at 530, the drop is more threatening then ur vults; vults alone can't really do much till u have 2 or more but u need ur first 2 this early to defend.

If u and the toss are far, what u do is to use the first 4 vults to attack the toss. Ur 4 vults be done at 530 and will reach the toss main at 600. At the same time, toss will get his reaver done at 530 and reach ur main at 600. This 30 secs is the key to give u time to make 2 more vults and 3 turrets to defend.

2)
-generally ok vs all toss builds but sometimes too reactive, esp vs 1 gate goon ob conditional expand. reacts slow at far spots and fast at close spots.
-VERY dependent on map location and distance. the main weakness of a mixed but safe build

A good build for all terrans but needs ALOT of recon and some luck to be effective. Far spots are something this reactional build don't like. THAT is the main weakness of a safe and standard build. :hs Sometimes, initiative is more impt. Experience will tell u that.
Notice this build has the fastest attack; 445. This means u pressure the toss first, forcing him to defend. The bad thing is that if u are doing this at far spots, u can't get to fully pressure the toss. The toss can afford to do some dancing to delay ur attack to buy time for his reaver or dt too. By the time u reach there, dt/reaver is out to stop u (530) and ur attack is screwed. HovZ thank u so much and i have to agree with u with a slight exception; if the toss is at far spot.

Also, gundam build like this one isn't so successful today anymore coz the terran player often overpressures and forgets his main; leaving it open to drops. Therefore when using this build, don't over devote urself to attack, unless u are sure u can reach the toss main and do enough damage before 530. Calling off the attack and retreating as soon as possible on order to defend and then secure the expo is the right answer. Map distance counts alot in that so if u are playing close LAND (note not AIR) spots, u have a chance.

A good toss can make a 2 goon gate build look like a 1 gate build due to the timing on when the 2rd gate is placed. By the time u find out its abit too late i guess, unless u are at close spots then reacting will be more faster. if u want a closer look, look at the standard 2 gate goon builds and compare it to 1 gate goon builds.

The blessing of this build is that it can react to all toss builds somehow well enough. Its goal is to actually expand as early as possible (perfect for elky ) while using troops to even out the toss if he's ahead OR hitting the toss as much as u can but u can't kill him.

3)
-great vs all goon based toss builds
-somehow weak vs tech builds

Great vs all goon based toss builds; why? goons < tank+ rines. Simple.

Joyo did win one game vs eros.rage who tried to proxy robo; the main prob is that the the reaver didn't get back in time to defend. If rage didn't proxy reaver, he could have helf off everything joyo threw at him and eventually start to do shuttle tricks at joyo's main.

Not much i can commment on this build; i don't like it so much as i don't find it very flexible. But this build is great for any map that relies the terran to wallin and get tanks fast due to the lack of cliffs. I don't use this build often but i feel this build can't fight reavers and dt well unless u got lucky and fight a toss at close spots and somehow managed to push to his main and do damage at before his dt or reaver is out. The toss still do some dancing....but tanks out range goons and with this many tanks, it might be hard for toss but once reaver or dt is out, its saved!

I hope this will clear something up and open some questions for some logical thinking.