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TreKbanned
Sweden50 Posts
its as cheesy as harassing building drones, or taking gas, map exploits or pylons next to facts so they cant addon.. its not like u cant defend vs mannerpylons..u kill the probe and u have workers where the mannerpylons can be built.. Making the game newbie is just what blizzard did with warcraft3  sad love // TreK | ||
Legionnaire
Australia4514 Posts
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PheaRSome
United States584 Posts
and don't use venice's lack of wit as proof of why it should be banned. it's his own stupid fault for chasing the probe and also stopping 3 of his own from mining to kill the one warping in. | ||
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PheaRSome
United States584 Posts
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nEph^Destroyer
Czech Republic105 Posts
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Liquid`Nazgul
22427 Posts
totel newbie | ||
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TreKbanned
Sweden50 Posts
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no1important
557 Posts
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Liquid`Nazgul
22427 Posts
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
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TreKbanned
Sweden50 Posts
i rarely see mannerpylon...i see it as protoss chance of gaining atleast some kinda control 12 vs 3 and 3 vs 12 ;] but sure..teamliquids tour their rules =( | ||
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BigBalls
United States5354 Posts
dont compare it to stupid shit like worker harassing and rine rush that can be done anywhere. the goal of the game is balance, being a strategy game, imbalances are supposed to be eliminated. spot imbalance is an imbalance and it should be removed. end of discussion. | ||
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nEph^Destroyer
Czech Republic105 Posts
btw u can also ban manner asimilators extractors and so on or dropship micro  it not fair tooT_T | ||
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Ress
Sweden47 Posts
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linternet
United States112 Posts
It's like a "no rush" rule. Don't jump down my throat here just because Nazgul says it's okay. The fact that great players play in the tournament doesn't make it any better. They're eliminating a legitimate tactic that they don't want to deal with. Newbies eliminate rushing, the experts are eliminating manner pylons. | ||
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Dealer
Sweden1368 Posts
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BigBalls
United States5354 Posts
You make the worst comparisons ive ever seen. Lets run down the list. manner assimilators and extractors. Well lets see, is there something preventing you from building gas on any position in LT? No, you can do it everywhere, it is fair. dropship micro. kill yourself. i dont care if it was sarcastic, kill yourself. a no rush rule: is there a certain position that you cant rush? is it ubiquitous? yes it is. you can rush everywhere, anytime you want. MANNER PYLON IS NOT UBIQUITOUS, DONT YOU SEE. the only thing its comparable to is the gay terran push in the valley between 9/6. the fact that its most used in a mirror match makes it worse than this stupid push. dont insult kiddies laziness in stopping a pylon. he is forced because of his position to take 2 probes off working and put them in stop in order to save himself? he is forced to bunch probes and get 1 caught just in order to mine minerals? that is fucking ridiculous. How about we all go play on a server and just install 1.01 there. good idea? lets have a ridiculous zerg larva rate and have everyone go 1 hatch muta. The only two valid points are that if you eliminate manner pylon you should eliminate the gay 9/6 valley push (which none of you came up with) and that it adds variation. the first point is hard to disprove because the gay tank shit is valid, im against that too, but it should be allowed (if i were to make a map, id make that valley water, unlandable and unbuildable) the second point can be argued against easily because its just not fair. a strategy game should not have imbalances, and this is an imbalance. the variation should not include having one side being at a complete disadvantage because of starting position. Its actually worse to have 12v3 pvp than 12v3 pvt. pvt you can take their gas and force something crappy out of them. pvp you have to take probes off minerals to have a chance, or do what i do now and basically manner pylon yourself and have a terrible building infrastructure. the goal of the game is to creat balance and fairness so the player with the best skill wins. something like manner pylon doesnt do that. it detracts from balance and should not be present. why am i the only one who feels so strongly about manner pylon | ||
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TreKbanned
Sweden50 Posts
nice "bigballs" whoever u are dont drag the argument down to ur level just cause ur stupid. My question to u is how u suppose every spot to be equal? its pretty known that terran@6 is ALOT disadvantaged compared to terran@12 and @2 should u BAN 6 pos then? no one has ever succeeded in making a mannerpylon vs me since I make my workers mine where they are buildable but i guess thats too much to ask "bigballs" No hurt feelings, Love // TreK ;] | ||
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TreKbanned
Sweden50 Posts
If u let some1 build mannerpylon at ur base u only have urself to blaime -.-v | ||
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TreKbanned
Sweden50 Posts
U dont need to stop mining with ur probes vs mannerpylons u just let 2 or 3 actually mine where the pylon can be built... ^^ | ||
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TreKbanned
Sweden50 Posts
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BigBalls
United States5354 Posts
On July 08 2003 15:39 TreK wrote: "trek youre a moron" nice "bigballs" whoever u are dont drag the argument down to ur level just cause ur stupid. My question to u is how u suppose every spot to be equal? its pretty known that terran@6 is ALOT disadvantaged compared to terran@12 and @2 should u BAN 6 pos then? no one has ever succeeded in making a mannerpylon vs me since I make my workers mine where they are buildable but i guess thats too much to ask "bigballs" No hurt feelings, Love // TreK ;] sorry for calling you a moron, but you compared it to the most ridiculous things. yes, its hard to balance LT, but just because there are other flaws in the map doesnt mean you have to allow this flaw to slide. Two wrongs dont make a right. Our goal is to eliminate any flaws, and this is the easiest flaw to rid ourselves of. I wont make any suggestions for fixing all of LT, because they will just go unnoticed and never get done. If someone is serious about fixing it i dont think it would be _THAT_ hard, only about 10 changes would make it a lot more even. | ||
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GundamVX
United States1025 Posts
something about how 6 on LT is imbalanced and that he leaves the game whenever he is caught in that position. ^^ | ||
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Legionnaire
Australia4514 Posts
On July 08 2003 15:39 TreK wrote: no one has ever succeeded in making a mannerpylon vs me since I make my workers mine where they are buildable but i guess thats too much to ask "bigballs" ;] haha thats a funny quote, almost like [NC]..Yellow saying that noones ever got manner pylon to work vs him | ||
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linternet
United States112 Posts
One of the key aspects of Protoss is the ability to warp in buildings. Maybe you do need two workers to block your ramp and save yourself at certain positions, just as you sometimes need a few workers to fend off an early ling rush. The point is it doesn't matter. There are a number of advantages players get from being at certain positions (12/3 toss/terran should terran be able to take advantage of his position and stick tanks in his base facing toss's ramp as toss comes out? Or what about cliffing gas with tanks at 3? Both not doable at all locations.) You take advantage of what you have - that's strategy and tactics. You're SUPPOSED to be able to build pylons wherever you want (save creep) and that includes (and I daresay encourages) where your opponent least wants them. Don't cry that it's not fair - deal with it. In the history of SC/BW there has not been a non-bug/cheat strategy that needs to be "banned" in order for a player to deal with it. For every supposedly cheap strategy I can think of, some expert will say "do xyz to counter that". Can you maybe sacrifice a little econ, go pylon on 6 and get an early zealot to block your ramp? Can you build a pylon first when you see the probe coming and then cancel it? Can you do a forge first build and get a cannon to prevent the threat? You're all going to laugh because the ideas I just mentioned are retarted to say the least. However, instead of looking at the experts and saying "If they think it should be banned then it should be", do what is always done with SC to evolve the game - TRY THINGS! | ||
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TreKbanned
Sweden50 Posts
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BigBalls
United States5354 Posts
the easiest flaw to rid ourselves of is manner pylon. we dont even have to change the map. two wrongs do not make a right. you cant justify one flaw because another is allowed. yes taking gas from 3 is cheap, yes tanks on a ledge is cheap, but this is something we can eliminate, so it is going to be eliminated. | ||
Waxangel
United States33249 Posts
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Legionnaire
Australia4514 Posts
On July 08 2003 16:47 TreK wrote: I play more terran and toss than i do zerg.. i'm guessing thats in reference to my comment? my comment was because you sounded like you dont tell your probes to block or to attack just to mine in the right spot. but you must do damn good probe micro since some of the time the "blocking" probes are travelling to the nexus thus leaving an opening? | ||
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Liquid`Nazgul
22427 Posts
On July 08 2003 17:08 Waxangel wrote: naz I wish you would cut the BS and just say it's because this is your tourney and you'll do whatever the fuck you want ;p On July 08 2003 12:58 [pG]Liquid`Nazgul wrote: it's banned because we don't want it | ||
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linternet
United States112 Posts
Nobody is arguing Naz's right to do whatever the fuck he wants. I just feel that the tournament loses its legitimacy because of it, despite the fact that some of the world's best players are competing. To the predictable respones of "Nobody gives a fuck what you think" I'll tell you to stop reading a forum designed for people to give their opinions if you don't give a fuck what people say. | ||
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TeCh)PsylO
United States3552 Posts
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roCh
Sweden870 Posts
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
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z7-TranCe
Canada3158 Posts
harsh +_+ | ||
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linternet
United States112 Posts
On July 08 2003 18:13 TranCe wrote: you feel it loses its legitimacy????? harsh +_+ It's really the prinicple of it that bothers me so much. I remember when I used to play Warcraft 1 over a modem with a friend (yes, I'm old) and we used to play without water elementals and daemons because every game would just be a rush to them and we'd mass. Starcraft/BW, despite its little imbalances, has never had to ban a tactic that wasn't a bug or cheating. Dudey once said (I know I'm probably shooting myself in the foot by paraphrasing himself) that much of the appeal of starcraft lay in the fact that its goal is to "win at all costs within the rules of the game". I agree with that, and I hate to see some of the best in the world part with that concept by saying "except". | ||
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pyogenes
Brazil1401 Posts
pylon'ing an opponents minerals wont be banned in wcg will it? is it banned in other big leagues? it just feels weird o.o even if it is a lame tactic.. | ||
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Maenander
Germany4926 Posts
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Legionnaire
Australia4514 Posts
okay i'm temp floating every game. btw first game i ever liked was warcraft 1, played it while i was in euro then forgot about it and didn't remember it again until war2 was released and that was the 2nd game i ever bought water elements > demons. demons so much stronger but elements had range | ||
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TreKbanned
Sweden50 Posts
I dont agree on this rule on any level expect that its their tour and they can have any rule they want.. They had some bad experience with playing versus it and eliminated that problem -.- GL IN TOUR ALL! | ||
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rplant
United States1178 Posts
On July 08 2003 18:21 linternet wrote: It's really the prinicple of it that bothers me so much. I remember when I used to play Warcraft 1 over a modem with a friend (yes, I'm old) and we used to play without water elementals and daemons because every game would just be a rush to them and we'd mass. Starcraft/BW, despite its little imbalances, has never had to ban a tactic that wasn't a bug or cheating. Dudey once said (I know I'm probably shooting myself in the foot by paraphrasing himself) that much of the appeal of starcraft lay in the fact that its goal is to "win at all costs within the rules of the game". I agree with that, and I hate to see some of the best in the world part with that concept by saying "except". The problem is that it's not a game issue here, it's a (custom) MAP issue, so that principle doesn't apply 100% | ||
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z7-TranCe
Canada3158 Posts
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bigMommA
1985 Posts
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Pafnucy
Poland1124 Posts
i dont get why you people argue so much about this rule. oh yeah, your personal freedoms are being taken away :/ | ||
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z7-TranCe
Canada3158 Posts
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RickJSanchez
United States1585 Posts
On July 08 2003 17:08 Waxangel wrote: naz I wish you would cut the BS and just say it's because this is your tourney and you'll do whatever the fuck you want ;p exactly Wax. manner pylon isnt unfair like someone already posted. comparing it to stealing gas, is a great way to see it, since both slow down your production in a way. | ||
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Pomozite
Croatia647 Posts
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
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pheered.user
United States2603 Posts
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z7-TranCe
Canada3158 Posts
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TreKbanned
Sweden50 Posts
"stop bitching" why do everyone have to use bad language and personal insults here to make a point? -.-T | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
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TreKbanned
Sweden50 Posts
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BigBalls
United States5354 Posts
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gOldnugget
Denmark5 Posts
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DV8
United States1623 Posts
BTW there are other ways to stop a mannerpylon other than being "Forced" to stop 2 workers from mining to kill off the enemy probe like blocking the building site  | ||
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z7-TranCe
Canada3158 Posts
but i haven't 1:1 for almost 4 months now :D:D | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
(-- ) ( --) ( . .) (. . ) (o'')O Q(''q) O_o o_o oO -0-z | ||
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BigBalls
United States5354 Posts
On July 08 2003 20:19 FrozenArbiter wrote: Because it's stupid ;( -_-v xD (__*)// (-_-)=b (-_-)=p ('' ) ( '') (-- ) ( --) ( . .) (. . ) (o'')O Q(''q) O_o o_o oO -0-z <^> | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
Btw you should see the chinese character ( I think) that looks just like a middle finger :D | ||
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z7-TranCe
Canada3158 Posts
-||- /\ ("o)o -||- /\ ("o)o -||- /\ | ||
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Marshall
United States234 Posts
if you seriously can't handle a manner pylon, that is pretty pathetic. i encourage people to manner pylon me when im at 12, it costs them 100 minerals and i always have no trouble getting all of my probes out except 1 at each spot... seriously, its stupid to not want someone to waste 200 minerals in order for me to stop 2 probes from mining for 45 seconds ...it takes away their chance at any decent zeal rush and it slows their tech considerably. its flat out stupid to think this effects the person being pyloned in a negative way. THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS, IT PUTS THE PERSON DOING IT AT A DISADVANTAGE, NOT THE PERSON RECEIVING IT ... now please tell me how this rule is helping the people who get manner pyloned? and btw ...kiddie is a moron, he doesnt know how to vs manner pylon, dont judge this based on the way he countered it ... (dying). i never lose a game to a manner pylon, ive lost games which went longer, but never because of that manner pylon, however im sure i win many more games when it is done to me than i lose | ||
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
YOU WANT SOMETHING THAT IS IMBALANCED??? | ||
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bigMommA
1985 Posts
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lastas
Sweden1219 Posts
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
(and if it was my opinion, no one would play LT at all, because it ISNT balanced, and thats not right) | ||
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TreKbanned
Sweden50 Posts
"so map unbalances are to be destroyed? lets remove 9 totally, since 9 terran can wall in better then the other ones" that was a great example! since that is the only pos that cant be lingrushed without have to make extra buldings for full wall. ive seen more ppl lose cause u can full wall there than i have seen fuckers die vs mannerpylons  | ||
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TreKbanned
Sweden50 Posts
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
And Manner pylon can be used on maps other than LT. Mannerpylon can be used on 100% otherwise balanced maps. | ||
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Marshall
United States234 Posts
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
And I didnt block my ramp because Im used to being able to have more zealots than my enemy when my enemy gets there, and therefore crushing their force once they come up. | ||
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NerO
United States2071 Posts
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NerO
United States2071 Posts
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Yooper
United States155 Posts
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Marshall
United States234 Posts
so you are saying "im used to being able to stop a muta rush with my 1 build, but if they 1 hatch muta ill just lose to it cuz 'IM USED TO MUTA COMING LATER" .... lol dude please give us all a break | ||
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
I don't disagree I should have blocked the ramp. | ||
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Yooper
United States155 Posts
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HaLoToss
United States357 Posts
On July 08 2003 19:03 TranCe wrote: these people argue about everything +_+ WE DO NOT! lol | ||
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hasuwar
7365 Posts
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Yooper
United States155 Posts
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pooper-scooper
United States3108 Posts
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Zurtle
United States5 Posts
Who the fuck would defend this? Has it even occurred to you how many imbalances there are in any given map? If you want perfect balance you might as well be playing Zero Clutter, of course that's also imbalanced since the middle positions can be attacked from 3 sides, and the corners only from 2 sides, UH OH. Blizzard designed the maps to be imbalanced, to create diversity of strategy. Use your God given brains for crying out loud. | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On July 08 2003 21:10 bigMommA wrote: oh you mean this ? damn i thought it was a chinese character too until my math teacher covered + - chapter lol "oh you mean this ?" Only see a questionmark, and no I am fairly certain that we are not talking about the same thing since I have been told it is indeed a chinese character(when asking how to write it ;(). | ||
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
On July 08 2003 23:32 Zurtle wrote: Ban manner pylon because the mineral placement is an imbalance? Who the fuck would defend this? Has it even occurred to you how many imbalances there are in any given map? If you want perfect balance you might as well be playing Zero Clutter, of course that's also imbalanced since the middle positions can be attacked from 3 sides, and the corners only from 2 sides, UH OH. Blizzard designed the maps to be imbalanced, to create diversity of strategy. Use your God given brains for crying out loud. Maybe thats why pro gamers DONT PLAY BLIZZARD MAPS? | ||
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hasuwar
7365 Posts
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Dealer
Sweden1368 Posts
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AstroMech
United States58 Posts
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28609 Posts
basically there's no use having this discussion as mannerpylon will stay banned no matter what! and this subject is something I am _incredibly_ stubborn about, so I won't change my mind, thus nazgul won't either as he listens to every word I speak. (and trek, I read that your goal was just creating the discussion, so im not accusing you of wasting your time, as you've obviously succeeded with your goal. ) | ||
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Liquid`Nazgul
22427 Posts
On July 08 2003 23:32 Zurtle wrote: Ban manner pylon because the mineral placement is an imbalance? Who the fuck would defend this? Has it even occurred to you how many imbalances there are in any given map? If you want perfect balance you might as well be playing Zero Clutter, of course that's also imbalanced since the middle positions can be attacked from 3 sides, and the corners only from 2 sides, UH OH. Blizzard designed the maps to be imbalanced, to create diversity of strategy. Use your God given brains for crying out loud. tich me bw | ||
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Marshall
United States234 Posts
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InSideOut
Canada1035 Posts
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Marshall
United States234 Posts
On July 09 2003 02:36 Liquid`Drone wrote: marshall you do realize that if you do not immediately kill the pylons, then he doesn't end up losing minerals for them until after they are dead. (as he GETS SUPPLIES FROM THEM THUS DOES NOT HAVE TO BUILD ANY IN HIS MAIN, for those of you completely lacking brood war understanding. ) so basically you limit yourself to 6 mineral fields and two probes less (if he did two pylons) when both players are two-gating. yeah good fucking luck defending. and if you send zealots home you lose pylon supporting gate or a gateway.. basically there's no use having this discussion as mannerpylon will stay banned no matter what! and this subject is something I am _incredibly_ stubborn about, so I won't change my mind, thus nazgul won't either as he listens to every word I speak. (and trek, I read that your goal was just creating the discussion, so im not accusing you of wasting your time, as you've obviously succeeded with your goal. ) (for drone since he lacks brood war understanding) you will get supply from them thats true, but once they are dying/about to die you will need to rebuild them in your main to be able to keep up with production ... meaning you have to build twice as many pylons, plus the fact that u use that 200 minerals early that you should be spending on zeals ... so you will have fewer zeals early game making it _EASIER_ for me to stop your rush... and i wont be limiting myself to 6 fields, miners mine from the back also, and i will only have 1 probe stuck in each assuming 2 pylons are built... the reason ill be able to hold it is because you cant build enough zeals fast enough to stop a 1 gate gas .. you couldnt do it even if you 9/10ed me and i 1 gate gassed in these positions. i really dont care about this either, i just like arguing for the sake of arguing lol.. | ||
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Marshall
United States234 Posts
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Liquid`Nazgul
22427 Posts
better to just shut up | ||
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Zurtle
United States5 Posts
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pooper-scooper
United States3108 Posts
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TreKbanned
Sweden50 Posts
if u trap them and the player ur playing dont know how to untrap them u gain alot.. i dont know who said u have to stand still with 2 probes to provent it...but why u have to do that? if he stand with his probe IN your peon line...just attack it with all ur probes? if he's standing a bit outside that's gr8...u dont need to block "his" building site.. But sure ;] nuff said  i guess if someone really suceeded in doing this vs me i'd be kinda angry(too)... | ||
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Refrain[FriZ]
Canada4337 Posts
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Rekrul
Korea (South)17174 Posts
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
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VitaleTerran
Canada34 Posts
the stupid discussion. And what do you expect from someone like Nazagul hosting something like this. It's his job to be as gay as possible. Ban me now mr.tough guy. | ||
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Rekrul
Korea (South)17174 Posts
On July 09 2003 07:35 VitaleTerran wrote: Your all retarted. Just use the damn KTF_Lost temple.....end of the stupid discussion. And what do you expect from someone like Nazagul hosting something like this. It's his job to be as gay as possible. Ban me now mr.tough guy. I'll do the honors. | ||
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harhar
United States37 Posts
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Hot77.iEy
Finland1486 Posts
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Freezer_au
Australia1461 Posts
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Pol
Poland1187 Posts
badmanner pylon | ||
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z7-TranCe
Canada3158 Posts
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28609 Posts
I only care about pylons and I only care about the pvp matchup, manner depots don't ruin tvp/tvt (and are so hard to accomplish that well yeah shouldn't happen. ) and mannerpylons don't ruin pvt either. (cause there's no deadly rush coming. ^_^) | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
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SillyCat
United States960 Posts
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BigBalls
United States5354 Posts
basically doing anything that is considered bad manner is allowed, while all things considered good manner are prohibited. for example, you win a game, spam the channels how your opponent is a really big newbie and post the rep on every site you can. if you lose a game, force a complaint and cry hack. | ||
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STIMMY D OKMG FISH
United States31 Posts
as for banning it... dont pros ban it? how many spots have to pull workers to deny manner pylon in pvp? it's a flat out, position-based pvp disadvantage, one that is easily bannable (or edit the map, same result, people simply dont block off the minerals with pylon). test it yourself you fucking lazy fucks. it is a blatant, bad bad not interesting position-specific flaw of temple, the equivalent of something like having the minerals mine too slowly in one spot or the gas being too far away compared to the others. they can manner pylon you, you can't necessarily manner pylon them. it IS an advantage (idiots). lolz. | ||
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iD.Twisted
Netherlands3102 Posts
ok. | ||
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TreKbanned
Sweden50 Posts
for christ sake i can only do it at 6 and 9. and at 2 pos if im not 6 pos!!!! btw i can only lift up baracks on some location to build hidden firebat. lets bann the flying rax too and i can only make offensive hatch on some locations too..vs 2 is way too hard...bann that too. um...it goes something like that? =) cheers! >_< | ||
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TreKbanned
Sweden50 Posts
-.-VV | ||
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yare
507 Posts
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