• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 16:51
CEST 22:51
KST 05:51
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Season 1 - Final Week6[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0
Community News
Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed14Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll8Team TLMC #5 - Submission extension3Firefly given lifetime ban by ESIC following match-fixing investigation17$25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced7
StarCraft 2
General
Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll RSL Revival patreon money discussion thread Who will win EWC 2025? The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings Esports World Cup 2025 - Final Player Roster
Tourneys
FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series $5,100+ SEL Season 2 Championship (SC: Evo) WardiTV Mondays
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome
Brood War
General
Flash Announces (and Retracts) Hiatus From ASL [ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BW General Discussion Help: rep cant save
Tourneys
Cosmonarchy Pro Showmatches CSL Xiamen International Invitational [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread CCLP - Command & Conquer League Project The PlayStation 5
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative Summer Games Done Quick 2025!
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Men Take Risks, Women Win Ga…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 684 users

The Games Industry And ATVI - Page 47

Forum Index > General Forum
Post a Reply
Prev 1 45 46 47 48 49 76 Next
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21655 Posts
May 10 2021 13:31 GMT
#921
On May 10 2021 21:57 Archeon wrote:
Because voice is unique from person to person. It's the same as storing a fingerprint.

It also transmits a lot more info, so it's easier to profile someone.

Also you apparently didn't click on the video, it's not about a private data-seller, it's about the Chinese gov.
Right, because the Chinese government wants to know our Valorant Pug strategies.

Again, its a games built in voicechat. What are they supposed to be profiling?
What is the danger here.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Simberto
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany11498 Posts
May 10 2021 14:20 GMT
#922
Dunno, but i do know that i feel a lot less open if i know that everything i say will be recorded, and may be given to whoever wants it, or sold to the highest bidder.

Yes, maybe most of what is said in there isn't really interesting. But the fact that they want to collect it alone shows to me that it is valuable to them in some way. Which means that someone wants to use it for something. Furthermore, i am already not happy with the amount of data about myself big data companies routinely collect. I would very much prefer for there to not also be hours upon hours of mostly unfiltered audio from my house.

Also, i fundamentally disagree with the idea that surveillance is okay if there is some reason to assume that most people don't have anything to hide on the surveilled medium. If you want to surveil people, you need a very good reason for that. The burden of proof should not be on the people being surveilled to proof that that specific channel contains sensitive data.

And, can you really not imagine a situation where you are playing a game, and then you start fighting with your wife and forget to turn of your mikrophone? Or someone comes in, calls you by your real name, and says something to your which you would prefer that neither riot nor the chinese government (or google, or the US government, or really anyone outside of your household) know.
Manit0u
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
Poland17249 Posts
May 10 2021 14:26 GMT
#923


An interesting overview of the P2W model.
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21655 Posts
May 10 2021 14:35 GMT
#924
On May 10 2021 23:20 Simberto wrote:
Dunno, but i do know that i feel a lot less open if i know that everything i say will be recorded, and may be given to whoever wants it, or sold to the highest bidder.

Yes, maybe most of what is said in there isn't really interesting. But the fact that they want to collect it alone shows to me that it is valuable to them in some way. Which means that someone wants to use it for something. Furthermore, i am already not happy with the amount of data about myself big data companies routinely collect. I would very much prefer for there to not also be hours upon hours of mostly unfiltered audio from my house.

Also, i fundamentally disagree with the idea that surveillance is okay if there is some reason to assume that most people don't have anything to hide on the surveilled medium. If you want to surveil people, you need a very good reason for that. The burden of proof should not be on the people being surveilled to proof that that specific channel contains sensitive data.

And, can you really not imagine a situation where you are playing a game, and then you start fighting with your wife and forget to turn of your mikrophone? Or someone comes in, calls you by your real name, and says something to your which you would prefer that neither riot nor the chinese government (or google, or the US government, or really anyone outside of your household) know.
I assume you think Riot's provided reason of wanting to combat toxicity in voice chat is not good enough?
From what I understand its actually kind of a big problem in Valorant (I don't play myself so I only know what I see online).
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25095 Posts
May 10 2021 14:50 GMT
#925
On May 10 2021 23:20 Simberto wrote:
Dunno, but i do know that i feel a lot less open if i know that everything i say will be recorded, and may be given to whoever wants it, or sold to the highest bidder.

Yes, maybe most of what is said in there isn't really interesting. But the fact that they want to collect it alone shows to me that it is valuable to them in some way. Which means that someone wants to use it for something. Furthermore, i am already not happy with the amount of data about myself big data companies routinely collect. I would very much prefer for there to not also be hours upon hours of mostly unfiltered audio from my house.

Also, i fundamentally disagree with the idea that surveillance is okay if there is some reason to assume that most people don't have anything to hide on the surveilled medium. If you want to surveil people, you need a very good reason for that. The burden of proof should not be on the people being surveilled to proof that that specific channel contains sensitive data.

And, can you really not imagine a situation where you are playing a game, and then you start fighting with your wife and forget to turn of your mikrophone? Or someone comes in, calls you by your real name, and says something to your which you would prefer that neither riot nor the chinese government (or google, or the US government, or really anyone outside of your household) know.

It depends why, what’s being done and what’s the expiration on data, if it’s being ringfenced properly etc.

More broadly I think people are too permissive of data collection if it’s Western companies, but if there’s a CCP connection swing very much the other way.

This absolutely isn’t to say the skepticism on the latter isn’t merited, don’t get me wrong there. I don’t see a huge amount of nefarious potential from logging data from this source alone, it would need some degree of cross-referencing with other data from Western sources to be especially useful. Or perhaps I lack imagination.

As per the intended purpose of this, fuck only knows. I would imagine smart people could build a pretty good auto-ban tool from feeding masses of chat logs into a directed machine learning program with some human judgement used as calibration.

If it was something like that, and it worked properly and user data was wiped that’s not that horrific in the scheme of things, but from what we know currently it could be almost anything and user data could persist for long periods if not forever.
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
Simberto
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany11498 Posts
May 10 2021 14:53 GMT
#926
On May 10 2021 23:35 Gorsameth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 10 2021 23:20 Simberto wrote:
Dunno, but i do know that i feel a lot less open if i know that everything i say will be recorded, and may be given to whoever wants it, or sold to the highest bidder.

Yes, maybe most of what is said in there isn't really interesting. But the fact that they want to collect it alone shows to me that it is valuable to them in some way. Which means that someone wants to use it for something. Furthermore, i am already not happy with the amount of data about myself big data companies routinely collect. I would very much prefer for there to not also be hours upon hours of mostly unfiltered audio from my house.

Also, i fundamentally disagree with the idea that surveillance is okay if there is some reason to assume that most people don't have anything to hide on the surveilled medium. If you want to surveil people, you need a very good reason for that. The burden of proof should not be on the people being surveilled to proof that that specific channel contains sensitive data.

And, can you really not imagine a situation where you are playing a game, and then you start fighting with your wife and forget to turn of your mikrophone? Or someone comes in, calls you by your real name, and says something to your which you would prefer that neither riot nor the chinese government (or google, or the US government, or really anyone outside of your household) know.
I assume you think Riot's provided reason of wanting to combat toxicity in voice chat is not good enough?
From what I understand its actually kind of a big problem in Valorant (I don't play myself so I only know what I see online).


If that is actually the case, then do some legal and technical stuff that involves that you only store the voice chat for 24-48 hours, and actively declare (ideally in a legally binding way) that you will only use that data for that purpose alone. If there is no report by another player within 24 hours, you almost certainly do not need that voice chat anymore to combat toxicity.

If that is done, i would probably support it. I'd probably only trust that declaration if the data was stored in the EU (where i live) and not in china, though.

But if they store the recordings for undetermined amounts of time in some server farm in China, and do not actively exclude any other use of said recordings, it seems to me as if they want to do some other shady stuff with them.
Silvanel
Profile Blog Joined March 2003
Poland4726 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-05-10 16:16:14
May 10 2021 16:04 GMT
#927
On May 10 2021 23:26 Manit0u wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGEPl02bI6E

An interesting overview of the P2W model.


Watched entire video. He is wrong in two places:
1)He says that simply changing the xp rates wont fix the issue because of the design - i know from experience this not true at least in some cases. I played exstensevily Lineage 2 on pirate servers and switching xp/gp rate from x1 to x5-x10 improves this game immensly. At the time of C4 and C5 Linegae was handsdown better than WoW. Dont know how it is now but realy the impossible grind was only thing keeping people of the L2.

2)He also says that developing games for two markets is impossible. I work in the project in which we develop software for 7 vastly different markets at the same time using single codebase. Its defiently doable.

Also most of the time he was talking about pay2skip.

Pathetic Greta hater.
Archeon
Profile Joined May 2011
3253 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-05-10 17:47:55
May 10 2021 16:42 GMT
#928
On May 10 2021 22:31 Gorsameth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 10 2021 21:57 Archeon wrote:
Because voice is unique from person to person. It's the same as storing a fingerprint.

It also transmits a lot more info, so it's easier to profile someone.

Also you apparently didn't click on the video, it's not about a private data-seller, it's about the Chinese gov.
Right, because the Chinese government wants to know our Valorant Pug strategies.

Again, its a games built in voicechat. What are they supposed to be profiling?
What is the danger here.

Your reaction under stress and which games you play independent of which mail or account is linked. The much scarier point than what you say though is being able to link what information you provide through your account with other sources of your voice to identify you. F.e. written chat to friends, including all the stuff ppl talk about to online friends like when they're home, when you're not home, which company you are working for, who you know and a ton of info to profile and influence you with. Suddenly that talk isn't anonymous anymore if the MSS has a single real voice recording of you f.e. because you said something on another person's facebook video.

All of this was less worrying if we weren't talking about a gov that tried to pressure western govs to make their media stop writing bad things about the CCP, imprisons people because they talk or write about their massacres of protesters and gives people virtual points for being more loyal to the party that allows them to pursue better jobs. The CCP has proven that they will abuse whatever they can if it brings them power over people and their ideal world is a one filled with 7 billion marionettes.

Not that I'm a fan of the general data collection culture we have developed in this digital age and normalizing unlimited voice recordings is freaking awful, the Snowden affair has more than proven that not just the CCP is willing to collect and concentrate vast amounts of personal information without confirmation from thousands of people.
low gravity, yes-yes!
Manit0u
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
Poland17249 Posts
May 10 2021 18:52 GMT
#929
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJlAUOwKfJ7Wz3ZSNV5DjlQ

Posting it here. Found a new dude on YouTube (300 subs) that produces gamedev related content and news. Most of the stuff on his channel seems quite reasonable and well thought-out, there are some very interesting tidbits of knowledge there for anyone interested.
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.
Harris1st
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Germany6914 Posts
May 12 2021 09:24 GMT
#930
I'm sorry for missusing this thread from time to time ^^

I just read there is a STARGATE-SG1 RTS in development!!!

https://www.ign.com/videos/stargate-timekeepers-reveal-trailer
Go Serral! GG EZ for Ence. Flashbang dance FTW
deacon.frost
Profile Joined February 2013
Czech Republic12129 Posts
May 12 2021 09:43 GMT
#931
On May 10 2021 22:31 Gorsameth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 10 2021 21:57 Archeon wrote:
Because voice is unique from person to person. It's the same as storing a fingerprint.

It also transmits a lot more info, so it's easier to profile someone.

Also you apparently didn't click on the video, it's not about a private data-seller, it's about the Chinese gov.
Right, because the Chinese government wants to know our Valorant Pug strategies.

Again, its a games built in voicechat. What are they supposed to be profiling?
What is the danger here.

Voice recognition is the issue, especially if you live in a country where they want control everyone.
Also voice synthesis - not sure how far is this, but generally speaking with enough data they can make you say anything they want.

And your voice is unique, so if somebody hears you say something they expect that YOU said it.

Similarly - what's the danger of having a picture online, no one can misuse it
I imagine France should be able to take this unless Lilbow is busy practicing for Starcraft III. | KadaverBB is my fairy ban mother.
Alpharius
Profile Joined September 2018
Vietnam39 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-05-13 10:43:55
May 13 2021 10:43 GMT
#932
Can you guys recommend me some good youtube channels for game review? I used to follow Totalbiscuit when he was still around. Skillup is ok, but I'm not interested in half of the titles he reviewed.
Manit0u
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
Poland17249 Posts
May 14 2021 03:22 GMT
#933
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.
Harris1st
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Germany6914 Posts
May 14 2021 10:08 GMT
#934
On May 14 2021 12:22 Manit0u wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5879kOeT_w


As far as I understand, they will implement some catch up boosts for new players later on. Don't think it's that big of a fuss
Go Serral! GG EZ for Ence. Flashbang dance FTW
Manit0u
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
Poland17249 Posts
May 14 2021 11:11 GMT
#935
On May 14 2021 19:08 Harris1st wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 14 2021 12:22 Manit0u wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5879kOeT_w


As far as I understand, they will implement some catch up boosts for new players later on. Don't think it's that big of a fuss


They're implementing it right off the bat (notice that this game hasn't been released yet). And it's not just catch up boosts. Crafting boosts, xp boosts etc.

What it tells me is that it might go the route of Korean MMOs and make the game ultra grindy to incentivize cash shop boost buying.
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.
Harris1st
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Germany6914 Posts
May 14 2021 14:53 GMT
#936
On May 14 2021 20:11 Manit0u wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 14 2021 19:08 Harris1st wrote:
On May 14 2021 12:22 Manit0u wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5879kOeT_w


As far as I understand, they will implement some catch up boosts for new players later on. Don't think it's that big of a fuss


They're implementing it right off the bat (notice that this game hasn't been released yet). And it's not just catch up boosts. Crafting boosts, xp boosts etc.

What it tells me is that it might go the route of Korean MMOs and make the game ultra grindy to incentivize cash shop boost buying.


Haven't watched the video because it screams click bait drama but I read some game magazine articles and the devs said there will not be boost at release
Go Serral! GG EZ for Ence. Flashbang dance FTW
Manit0u
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
Poland17249 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-05-14 17:11:10
May 14 2021 17:08 GMT
#937
On May 14 2021 23:53 Harris1st wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 14 2021 20:11 Manit0u wrote:
On May 14 2021 19:08 Harris1st wrote:
On May 14 2021 12:22 Manit0u wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5879kOeT_w


As far as I understand, they will implement some catch up boosts for new players later on. Don't think it's that big of a fuss


They're implementing it right off the bat (notice that this game hasn't been released yet). And it's not just catch up boosts. Crafting boosts, xp boosts etc.

What it tells me is that it might go the route of Korean MMOs and make the game ultra grindy to incentivize cash shop boost buying.


Haven't watched the video because it screams click bait drama but I read some game magazine articles and the devs said there will not be boost at release


Video is about information leaked from the early access forums that's under NDA.

[image loading]
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.
Harris1st
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Germany6914 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-05-14 18:22:34
May 14 2021 18:02 GMT
#938


Some guys:
I watched a video where a youtuber explains that you are looking to implement a ptw system, please don't kill the game like that. put cosmetics, azoth coins or whatever, but nothing that makes the ptw game 🥺



New World:
We are aware that there are concerns around the storefront testing currently in Alpha. To be clear, at launch all of the items in the shop will be focused on cosmetics. There will be no boosts of any type for sale at launch. We will share more on our vision for MTX soon.
Go Serral! GG EZ for Ence. Flashbang dance FTW
Manit0u
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
Poland17249 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-05-14 18:38:01
May 14 2021 18:08 GMT
#939
Well, obviously they can't talk on official channels about stuff that's under NDA. Can't open this twitter btw.

Edit: It's not really a matter of boosts actually being there at launch or not. Even the fact they're setting up for them later down the line is worrying. It wouldn't be a problem for a f2p game but this is a fully priced game and they mentioned previously that the cash shop will be for cosmetics only.
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.
deacon.frost
Profile Joined February 2013
Czech Republic12129 Posts
May 14 2021 20:20 GMT
#940
On May 15 2021 03:08 Manit0u wrote:
Well, obviously they can't talk on official channels about stuff that's under NDA. Can't open this twitter btw.

Edit: It's not really a matter of boosts actually being there at launch or not. Even the fact they're setting up for them later down the line is worrying. It wouldn't be a problem for a f2p game but this is a fully priced game and they mentioned previously that the cash shop will be for cosmetics only.

If you don't trust them, don't buy the game and wait how it works out. It took roughly 2 months to see how bad SWTOR is, so it's not like you'll be missing that much
I imagine France should be able to take this unless Lilbow is busy practicing for Starcraft III. | KadaverBB is my fairy ban mother.
Prev 1 45 46 47 48 49 76 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 3h 10m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
ZombieGrub276
UpATreeSC 158
Nathanias 94
JuggernautJason49
CosmosSc2 24
StarCraft: Brood War
Sea 2306
Larva 842
TY 175
scan(afreeca) 32
Dota 2
qojqva4912
League of Legends
Dendi1502
Counter-Strike
Stewie2K1082
oskar277
flusha234
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu504
Other Games
FrodaN2685
tarik_tv2402
ToD227
C9.Mang0167
RotterdaM143
Skadoodle97
ViBE94
Trikslyr72
Sick38
PPMD15
Liquid`Ken1
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick2652
StarCraft 2
angryscii 37
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH210
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota21180
League of Legends
• TFBlade1035
Other Games
• imaqtpie2011
• Scarra113
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
3h 10m
OSC
3h 10m
Epic.LAN
15h 10m
Big Brain Bouts
19h 10m
sebesdes vs SpeCial
Harstem vs YoungYakov
GgMaChine vs uThermal
CranKy Ducklings
1d 13h
Epic.LAN
1d 15h
CSO Contender
1d 20h
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
1d 21h
Bonyth vs Sziky
Dewalt vs Hawk
Hawk vs QiaoGege
Sziky vs Dewalt
Mihu vs Bonyth
Zhanhun vs QiaoGege
QiaoGege vs Fengzi
Sparkling Tuna Cup
2 days
Online Event
2 days
[ Show More ]
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
2 days
Bonyth vs Zhanhun
Dewalt vs Mihu
Hawk vs Sziky
Sziky vs QiaoGege
Mihu vs Hawk
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs Bonyth
Esports World Cup
4 days
ByuN vs Astrea
Lambo vs HeRoMaRinE
Clem vs TBD
Solar vs Zoun
SHIN vs Reynor
Maru vs TriGGeR
herO vs Lancer
Cure vs ShoWTimE
Esports World Cup
5 days
Esports World Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

JPL Season 2
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

BSL 2v2 Season 3
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL20 Non-Korean Championship
Championship of Russia 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters

Upcoming

CSL Xiamen Invitational
CSL Xiamen Invitational: ShowMatche
2025 ACS Season 2
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
K-Championship
RSL Revival: Season 2
SEL Season 2 Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
Underdog Cup #2
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.