EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 683
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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Sermokala
United States14210 Posts
On September 10 2018 12:21 Plansix wrote: Market based socialism has been the most successful brand of socialism to date. But it isn’t the Socialism that conservatives love to demonize as the doom of nations. Its also really hard to explain to either side what exactly "market based socialism" is past nationalizing some sectors for the public benefit. | ||
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Kyadytim
United States886 Posts
On September 10 2018 08:49 Danglars wrote: One primary criticism of socialism is that systems comparative inadequacy at dealing with normal human failings within the system. If they could find some angelic beings to attribute resources and run industries, I think you’d find less Venezuela-style failings of socialism. One primary criticism of capitalism is that system's comparative inadequacy at dealing with normal human failings within in the system. If they could find some angelic beings to manage capital and run corporations, I think you'd find less US-style failings of capitalism. I'm not going to argue whether there are US-style failings of capitalism The EPA maintains a year by year list of the major criminals they've caught. https://www.epa.gov/enforcement/2015-major-criminal-cases https://www.epa.gov/enforcement/2016-major-criminal-cases https://www.epa.gov/enforcement/2017-major-criminal-cases There's also the various wage theft cases from the last few years where companies don't pay overtime or something, the banks doing shit like opening accounts in people's names without permission, and assorted other white collar crime. If someone wants to debate whether things like US workers spending more time at work that other developed countries due to a combination of fewer vacations allotted, less sick time allotted, and more hours worked per day is a failing of culture instead of a failing of culture, that's fine. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On September 10 2018 12:38 Sermokala wrote: Its also really hard to explain to either side what exactly "market based socialism" is past nationalizing some sectors for the public benefit. At one point the US decided that private bridges, roads, police and fire departments were a bad idea. Some day soon we will realize market based healthcare is also a bad idea, though I doubt we will ever nationalize it. Curbing the highs and lows of the market is a much easier way to manage sectors like healthcare, which has a pretty fixed demand. | ||
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Sermokala
United States14210 Posts
On September 10 2018 12:50 Plansix wrote: At one point the US decided that private bridges, roads, police and fire departments were a bad idea. Some day soon we will realize market based healthcare is also a bad idea, though I doubt we will ever nationalize it. Curbing the highs and lows of the market is a much easier way to manage sectors like healthcare, which has a pretty fixed demand. Yeah not much changes really from where we are now but good luck selling anyone who grew up in the cold war on "socialism is a good thing". Its terrible marketing to label anything at all in america socialism and that isn't going to change for decades. | ||
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mozoku
United States708 Posts
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screamingpalm
United States1527 Posts
On September 10 2018 13:05 Sermokala wrote: Yeah not much changes really from where we are now but good luck selling anyone who grew up in the cold war on "socialism is a good thing". Its terrible marketing to label anything at all in america socialism and that isn't going to change for decades. Which is ironic considering Boomers benefitted greatly from FDR's policies. Though, his aim was to save capitalism rather than bring socialism, but whatever lol. Setting parameters for the market is precisely what we should be doing more of, just like we do with many commodities. Labor should definitely have a buffer stock through a federal job guarantee, which would set a price anchor and automatic stabilizer which would cut down on welfare spending while boosting productive output and benefitting communities. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France8192 Posts
I think we should find better words, and avoid « socialism » altogether since people are not willing to use it in an intelligent way. Everytime I read Danglar equating centre left policies with Venezuela, I lose a bit more faith in humanity. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On September 10 2018 13:21 screamingpalm wrote: Which is ironic considering Boomers benefitted greatly from FDR's policies. Though, his aim was to save capitalism rather than bring socialism, but whatever lol. Setting parameters for the market is precisely what we should be doing more of, just like we do with many commodities. Labor should definitely have a buffer stock through a federal job guarantee, which would set a price anchor and automatic stabilizer which would cut down on welfare spending while boosting productive output and benefitting communities. I don’t know why everyone is so focused on FDR when the 50s and 60s is when the US crushed it economically while having a nice high tax rate. And we made all these nice social programs that have helped us deal with poverty. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
On September 10 2018 19:26 Plansix wrote: I don’t know why everyone is so focused on FDR when the 50s and 60s is when the US crushed it economically while having a nice high tax rate. And we made all these nice social programs that have helped us deal with poverty. My man LBJ gets no love. | ||
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farvacola
United States18869 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Grumbels
Netherlands7032 Posts
So within the European context socialism is not necessarily marxism. Something which is in vogue among the American Left is to describe Democratic Socialism as being about democratic control of the economy. Far from being authoritarian, they have the most radically pro-democratic platform of any major political movement in the US. I think it’s kind of laughable for a group of politicians who have let whatever used to pass for American democracy to completely atrophy so that now you have a whole bunch of essentially one-party states, with massive voter disenfranchisement and with chronically low turn-out, to constantly berate popular leftwing opposition for being somehow undemocratic. Especially since the most popular leftwing figure in the country (Sanders) mainly just wants single payer health care and free college, successful policies tried and tested within European capitalist countries, which have majority support among the population. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
We built so much of the country during that period of time, including most of the highways and public transportation lines we still use today. People bemoan the lack of public transportation in the US, not really understanding that we built a lot our current transportation systems together. I miss the good old days when the top 1% paid 90% of their income into taxes. Or 70% if you want to travel to the 1970s. The economy was amazing and we had no need for "Job Creators". | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
On September 10 2018 22:18 JimmiC wrote: Hard to get much love with his involvement in the Vietnam war and all that has come out in regards to his knowledge on it and unwillingness to stop. Also, it is hard now a days to read LBJ and not think LeBron James. Vietnam is a big black mark against LBJ, but I wouldn't call him a neocon. He never really wanted the war, but his military advisors pretty much just kept telling him to double down and that was the best, fastest way to win. LBJ really just wanted to push his Great Society programs and keep the New Deal coalition going. Who knows what he could have achieved if wiser heads had prevailed re: Vietnam and he had gotten another term dictating domestic policy. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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