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On September 08 2018 03:21 RenSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2018 03:02 Plansix wrote:On September 08 2018 02:52 Danglars wrote:On September 08 2018 01:49 Sent. wrote:It’s bullshit that doesn’t even mean anything like the «neo fascist» term? It's sounding more and more like <<Term Used Negatively About My Allies>> is a bullshit meaningless term, but <<Term Used Negatively About My Enemies>> is well-rounded, well-defined, specific, and accurate. Then we all have a good romp about how people that think differently than me don't have a clue about the terms, and people like me who've done all the right research know about the many differences. It's way too much group-membership debate and semantics for me. If you did any reading at all in this thread, or outside this thread you wouldn't have typed this. As stated above Cultural Marxism rose out of the Frankfurt School, being an academic's way of describing anti-capitalist parts of cultures. Like Christianity promoting charity and collective support of the poor, for example. However idiots like Alex Jones(RIP twitter clown) turned it into a grand conspiracy to destroy western civilization because, again, they are uneducated idiots who don't read. Neo Fascist is also a defined term, which means New Fascist. It is post WW2 fascism and all its xenophobic, authoritarian trappings. None of this is complex stuff. Neo Facist practically describes itself. The history of these words and their meanings are well documented for anyone to find and learn about. I don’t really see the distinguishing factor between “fascist” and “neo fascist”. Post WWII versus pre WWII doesn’t really seem significant on its own. Fascists by definition have always been authoritarian and xenophobia seems like it has almost always been a part of classical fascists. So why use “neo fascist” at all? Neo Fascist is used to describe people attempting to push fascist ideology and authoritarianism through alternative rhetoric. The term has been around for a while, I believe since the 1950s or so. Much like Neo-Nazism, it is used to describe the next iteration of a terrible movement and its push for power.
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Estonia4504 Posts
On September 08 2018 02:52 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2018 01:49 Sent. wrote:It’s bullshit that doesn’t even mean anything like the «neo fascist» term? It's sounding more and more like <<Term Used Negatively About My Allies>> is a bullshit meaningless term, but <<Term Used Negatively About My Enemies>> is well-rounded, well-defined, specific, and accurate. Then we all have a good romp about how people that think differently than me don't have a clue about the terms, and people like me who've done all the right research know about the many differences. It's way too much group-membership debate and semantics for me. Cultural marxism researches the ways culture influences class relations, it's an approach. It usually refers to works by Adorno, Horkheimer, and Marcuse, talking about the impact of mass media on culture. Hence, in academia, it has a specific meaning. With neo-fascism, it's somewhat more difficult, as fascism is often defined by its characteristics from the outside. There is are few texts central to fascist ideology, or even a universal coherent specific narrative between different types of fascism. This is not to imply such a thing as neo-fascism does not exist, but it can be difficult to apply.
Please don't take this as an attempt to educate you or debate you. This is mostly to add some academic context in response.
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On September 08 2018 03:30 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2018 03:21 RenSC2 wrote:On September 08 2018 03:02 Plansix wrote:On September 08 2018 02:52 Danglars wrote:On September 08 2018 01:49 Sent. wrote:It’s bullshit that doesn’t even mean anything like the «neo fascist» term? It's sounding more and more like <<Term Used Negatively About My Allies>> is a bullshit meaningless term, but <<Term Used Negatively About My Enemies>> is well-rounded, well-defined, specific, and accurate. Then we all have a good romp about how people that think differently than me don't have a clue about the terms, and people like me who've done all the right research know about the many differences. It's way too much group-membership debate and semantics for me. If you did any reading at all in this thread, or outside this thread you wouldn't have typed this. As stated above Cultural Marxism rose out of the Frankfurt School, being an academic's way of describing anti-capitalist parts of cultures. Like Christianity promoting charity and collective support of the poor, for example. However idiots like Alex Jones(RIP twitter clown) turned it into a grand conspiracy to destroy western civilization because, again, they are uneducated idiots who don't read. Neo Fascist is also a defined term, which means New Fascist. It is post WW2 fascism and all its xenophobic, authoritarian trappings. None of this is complex stuff. Neo Facist practically describes itself. The history of these words and their meanings are well documented for anyone to find and learn about. I don’t really see the distinguishing factor between “fascist” and “neo fascist”. Post WWII versus pre WWII doesn’t really seem significant on its own. Fascists by definition have always been authoritarian and xenophobia seems like it has almost always been a part of classical fascists. So why use “neo fascist” at all? Neo Fascist is used to describe people attempting to push fascist ideology and authoritarianism through alternative rhetoric. The term has been around for a while, I believe since the 1950s or so. Much like Neo-Nazism, it is used to describe the next iteration of a terrible movement and its push for power. "Neo-Nazi" makes sense as a term because the Nazis were a specific group of people and that group was defeated during WWII. Thus, the next iteration of Nazis is not the same as the old and are therefore neo-Nazis. Nazism as an ideology doesn't necessarily need the "neo" abbreviation because it is still nazism, but the usage of "neo-nazism" is understandable due to the linking directly to "neo-Nazis".
Fascism isn't a specific group of people, but instead an idea. The idea did not die and have to be reborn anew. The idea of fascism has always been around. There is nothing new unless there is a heavy distinction on the "alternative rhetoric" point. However, I haven't really seen anything alternative. It's still people pushing the same shit, even if it's through different media. I think "neo-fascism" is an unnecessary word that just confuses the point. Are the people you are talking about fascist? Then call them fascists. No need to call them "neo-fascists" and make them sound different and cooler. Don't let them be something new because that new thing might work. Instead, paint them as what they are: the same old fascists with the same old points that has been shown throughout history to be failed ideology.
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The idea of fascism has not "always been around"...
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On September 08 2018 05:02 RenSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2018 03:30 Plansix wrote:On September 08 2018 03:21 RenSC2 wrote:On September 08 2018 03:02 Plansix wrote:On September 08 2018 02:52 Danglars wrote:On September 08 2018 01:49 Sent. wrote:It’s bullshit that doesn’t even mean anything like the «neo fascist» term? It's sounding more and more like <<Term Used Negatively About My Allies>> is a bullshit meaningless term, but <<Term Used Negatively About My Enemies>> is well-rounded, well-defined, specific, and accurate. Then we all have a good romp about how people that think differently than me don't have a clue about the terms, and people like me who've done all the right research know about the many differences. It's way too much group-membership debate and semantics for me. If you did any reading at all in this thread, or outside this thread you wouldn't have typed this. As stated above Cultural Marxism rose out of the Frankfurt School, being an academic's way of describing anti-capitalist parts of cultures. Like Christianity promoting charity and collective support of the poor, for example. However idiots like Alex Jones(RIP twitter clown) turned it into a grand conspiracy to destroy western civilization because, again, they are uneducated idiots who don't read. Neo Fascist is also a defined term, which means New Fascist. It is post WW2 fascism and all its xenophobic, authoritarian trappings. None of this is complex stuff. Neo Facist practically describes itself. The history of these words and their meanings are well documented for anyone to find and learn about. I don’t really see the distinguishing factor between “fascist” and “neo fascist”. Post WWII versus pre WWII doesn’t really seem significant on its own. Fascists by definition have always been authoritarian and xenophobia seems like it has almost always been a part of classical fascists. So why use “neo fascist” at all? Neo Fascist is used to describe people attempting to push fascist ideology and authoritarianism through alternative rhetoric. The term has been around for a while, I believe since the 1950s or so. Much like Neo-Nazism, it is used to describe the next iteration of a terrible movement and its push for power. "Neo-Nazi" makes sense as a term because the Nazis were a specific group of people and that group was defeated during WWII. Thus, the next iteration of Nazis is not the same as the old and are therefore neo-Nazis. Nazism as an ideology doesn't necessarily need the "neo" abbreviation because it is still nazism, but the usage of "neo-nazism" is understandable due to the linking directly to "neo-Nazis". Fascism isn't a specific group of people, but instead an idea. The idea did not die and have to be reborn anew. The idea of fascism has always been around. There is nothing new unless there is a heavy distinction on the "alternative rhetoric" point. However, I haven't really seen anything alternative. It's still people pushing the same shit, even if it's through different media. I think "neo-fascism" is an unnecessary word that just confuses the point. Are the people you are talking about fascist? Then call them fascists. No need to call them "neo-fascists" and make them sound different and cooler. Don't let them be something new because that new thing might work. Instead, paint them as what they are: the same old fascists with the same old points that has been shown throughout history to be failed ideology. There is some merit to this argument, but I think the term just arises from need to separate any new political group from the WW2 era. It was such a singular moment in US and EU history where the current fascist were defeated and ejected from all forms of public governance, it was hard to call anyone a “fascist” after that. They could easily say “I wasn’t part of the Italian Fascist government,” or whatever applied and be technically correct. So neo fascists was used to draw a bright line between the defeated fascist and the new ones.
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I wonder if Papadopoulos got only two weeks in jail because he gave some good information to Mueller's team. Is there any way to know why the sentence was so short? I read that the max it could've been was six months
Wait, I see that the prosecutors wanted six months, hmm...
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In terms of ideas neo-facism and facism don't seem to be much different from each other, the neo- prefix only seem to differentiate it from more successful fascist governments and that of a time division. These sort of descriptions are usually unclear. For instance the Franco Spain is a fascist state, and essentially existed for 25 years after WW2, but no one would describe that as neo-fascist, which would render Plansix's "defined term" completely moot.
But props to Plansix for attempting the terms he uses. Better than some others.
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I have heard historians talk about how Franco Spain had Neo Fascists elements, but I think it avoids being defined as neo fascist simply because the goverment existed before and through WW2. But it is all splitting hairs at this point.
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This is pretty telling. There's no reason at all to be against this bipartisan pledge. I guess they judge themselves to be the less likely side to get hacked.
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Republican want to leak the stolen docs to the media, then exploit them, effectively making the whole pledge toothless.
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Pledging implies there is something to pledge. Many on the right don't even recognize the impact of hacked op research. They need to be able to feel like this was some earned victory and that Russia had nothing to do with it. Just "farm folk sticking it to coastal libs" and that's all there is to it
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United States24579 Posts
Sean Spicer is speaking at my club that I live almost across the street from in a few weeks. He is going to be plugging his book, and I just can't think of a reason to go, since I don't want to troll him.
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You should go just to watch other troll him, it'll be a win win for you.
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On September 08 2018 08:15 micronesia wrote: Sean Spicer is speaking at my club that I live almost across the street from in a few weeks. He is going to be plugging his book, and I just can't think of a reason to go, since I don't want to troll him. Few weeks? That's plenty of time to let your tomatos rot.
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On September 08 2018 06:30 Dangermousecatdog wrote: In terms of ideas neo-facism and facism don't seem to be much different from each other, the neo- prefix only seem to differentiate it from more successful fascist governments and that of a time division. These sort of descriptions are usually unclear. For instance the Franco Spain is a fascist state, and essentially existed for 25 years after WW2, but no one would describe that as neo-fascist, which would render Plansix's "defined term" completely moot.
But props to Plansix for attempting the terms he uses. Better than some others. The thing is that fascism describes primarily one political movement: Mussolini’s Italy, and by extension, Franco’s Spain, and, by stretching even a bit more, authoritarian, ultranationalists regimes with more or less similar ideologies.
The « neo » is added to talk about groups from after the second world war that can be considered the heirs of those regimes and have adapted those ideas to a different time and a different context.
Fascism is a very term that has various level of meaning, from very specific (some historian say that you should keep it for Italy in the 20’s-40’s only) to very wide. There is nothing wrong to differenciate contemporary fascists from historical ones with the prefix « neo », they have plenty of differences.
But anyway, whoever said that it was as bad a term as « cultural marxism » used by Alex Jones, Breivik and the alt right clowns made a reaaaaaaally shitty point.
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A common understanding of fascism is based on these principles by author Umberto Eco:
+ Show Spoiler +In his 1995 essay "Eternal Fascism", cultural theorist Umberto Eco lists fourteen general properties of fascist ideology. He argues that it is not possible to organise these into a coherent system, but that "it is enough that one of them be present to allow fascism to coagulate around it". He uses the term "Ur-fascism" as a generic description of different historical forms of fascism. The fourteen properties are as follows: - "The Cult of Tradition", characterized by cultural syncretism, even at the risk of internal contradiction. When all truth has already been revealed by Tradition, no new learning can occur, only further interpretation and refinement.
- "The Rejection of modernism", which views the rationalistic development of Western culture since the Enlightenment as a descent into depravity. Eco distinguishes this from a rejection of superficial technological advancement, as many fascist regimes cite their industrial potency as proof of the vitality of their system.
- "The Cult of Action for Action's Sake", which dictates that action is of value in itself, and should be taken without intellectual reflection. This, says Eco, is connected with anti-intellectualism and irrationalism, and often manifests in attacks on modern culture and science.
- "Disagreement Is Treason" – Fascism devalues intellectual discourse and critical reasoning as barriers to action, as well as out of fear that such analysis will expose the contradictions embodied in a syncretistic faith.
- "Fear of Difference", which fascism seeks to exploit and exacerbate, often in the form of racism or an appeal against foreigners and immigrants.
- "Appeal to a Frustrated Middle Class", fearing economic pressure from the demands and aspirations of lower social groups.
- "Obsession with a Plot" and the hyping-up of an enemy threat. This often combines an appeal to xenophobia with a fear of disloyalty and sabotage from marginalized groups living within the society (such as the German elite's 'fear' of the 1930s Jewish populace's businesses and well-doings; see also anti-Semitism). Eco also cites Pat Robertson's book The New World Order as a prominent example of a plot obsession.
Fascist societies rhetorically cast their enemies as "at the same time too strong and too weak." On the one hand, fascists play up the power of certain disfavored elites to encourage in their followers a sense of grievance and humiliation. On the other hand, fascist leaders point to the decadence of those elites as proof of their ultimate feebleness in the face of an overwhelming popular will.
- "Pacifism is Trafficking with the Enemy" because "Life is Permanent Warfare" – there must always be an enemy to fight. Both fascist Germany under Hitler and Italy under Mussolini worked first to organize and clean up their respective countries and then build the war machines that they later intended to and did use, despite Germany being under restrictions of the Versailles treaty to NOT build a military force. This principle leads to a fundamental contradiction within fascism: the incompatibility of ultimate triumph with perpetual war.
- "Contempt for the Weak", which is uncomfortably married to a chauvinistic popular elitism, in which every member of society is superior to outsiders by virtue of belonging to the in-group. Eco sees in these attitudes the root of a deep tension in the fundamentally hierarchical structure of fascist polities, as they encourage leaders to despise their underlings, up to the ultimate Leader who holds the whole country in contempt for having allowed him to overtake it by force.
- "Everybody is Educated to Become a Hero", which leads to the embrace of a cult of death. As Eco observes, "[t]he Ur-Fascist hero is impatient to die. In his impatience, he more frequently sends other people to death."
- "Machismo", which sublimates the difficult work of permanent war and heroism into the sexual sphere. Fascists thus hold "both disdain for women and intolerance and condemnation of nonstandard sexual habits, from chastity to homosexuality."
- "Selective Populism" – The People, conceived monolithically, have a Common Will, distinct from and superior to the viewpoint of any individual. As no mass of people can ever be truly unanimous, the Leader holds himself out as the interpreter of the popular will (though truly he dictates it). Fascists use this concept to delegitimize democratic institutions they accuse of "no longer representing the Voice of the People."
- "Newspeak" – Fascism employs and promotes an impoverished vocabulary in order to limit critical reasoning.
Orbán might be a good modern example of fascism:
+ Show Spoiler +( source) Regarding the economy, society, health, education, public transport, trade, taxation, etc. his electoral manifesto consisted of one sentence: “We’ll go on as before.” He does not give interviews and participated in no debates. This was his message to Hungarians: - Hungary will not allow dark-skinned Muslim refugees or immigrants to enter the country, and will resist all forces of “mongrelization” (masquerading as “multiculturalism,” “internationalism,” and “cosmopolitanism”), which seek to destroy “White Christian Europe”;
- Hungary will not disarm in the face of “political correctness,” which is nothing more than godless communism;
- “Mongrelization,” or the dilution of Hungary’s racial stock, is pushed by the “international Jew,” George Soros, who bankrolls the anti-national, liberal-Bolshevik Hungarian opposition and who will even harm the only kind of Jew we like, the religious Zionist. Our dear friend, Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu, agrees with us as he, too, hates the Yids;
- The European Union, the United Nations, the Council of Europe, the western press, the social-democratic, liberal, and Green parties are simple tools in the hands of George Soros — that is, of rootless cosmopolitan Jewry;
- Pope Francis is an internationalist liberal Bolshevik;
- “Gender madness” or “genderism,” radical feminism,” “human-rightsism,” gay marriage, the Istanbul treaty (which prohibits domestic violence against women and children) — all of these will suppress the Christian family and make “faggotry” the new model of morality;
- We shall save Europe from itself, which allows Muslim terrorists and hard-left rioters to plunge it into chaos, unlike the true allies of Christianity like Erdoğan, al-Sisi, Berdimuhamedov, Aliyev, and the rest;
The Roma people — just like Muslims — cannot be integrated because they do not like to work. They ought to be disciplined, separated, segregated, and, if need be, resettled;
- Freemasons, illuminati, cultural Marxists, stock-exchange speculators, anarchists, and sundry intellectuals wish to convince us to renounce anti-Romanian revanchism and irredentism because they have, of course, no understanding of our souls;
- Our main enemies are journalists and human rights groups in the pay of You-Know-Who.
You may think this is a joke. But it isn’t. It is similar, in a way, to the 1930s, but it is a pastiche, a parody. A few weeks ago, in a small town in Hungary, two Catholic nuns were stopped on the street and berated by people yelling, “Migrants! Migrants!” After pushing the old ladies a bit, they called the police, believing they had seen Muslim women in a burqa and hijab. The police saved the nuns from the Christian crowd.
This is from an article talking about Germany's AfD and the recent far-right rallies. To me this seems another example of fascism. I doubt they have much chance in Germany, but it's still very worrisome.
+ Show Spoiler +( source) Right-wing extremist arguments almost always rest on the state’s alleged failure to deal adequately with migration. There is a reason for this. It serves to justify a position in which the Right’s actions can be construed as “self-defense.” Under the German legal system, violence committed in self-defense cannot be punished; the claim of self-defense in the face of “state failure” thus provides intellectual justification for openly racist displays of vigilante “justice.” The racist mobs in Chemnitz are a forewarning of what this form of justification could imply, and what German society can expect from the far right in the future. A striking example of this outlook is detailed in an article entitled “Chemnitz’s Turning Point 2.0?” published on the right-wing German blog Politically Incorrect. The argument works by way of a biological analogy: the riots and mobs are depicted as the natural, self-preserving reaction of a national population’s healthy immune system against a harmful foreign invader. Nowhere in Germany, we are led to believe, is this “immune system” as healthy as in the area surrounding Chemnitz. It is high time we started taking these kind of statements seriously. To understand how deeply these ideas have penetrated German political discourse, we need only look at the AfD, the country’s ascendant far-right parliamentary party, and one of its chief ideologues, Björn Höcke. Höcke leads the party in the federal state of Thuringia, and regularly appears as a speaker at AfD-sponsored rallies and events. [..] Höcke is building on an understanding of history in which each society is always in a process of transition to new forms of rule. For Höcke, we today face the “final stage of the degeneration of democracy,” which will be followed by a phase of absolutist autocracy. This transition can only be achieved through a “renovation” — Höcke’s euphemism for revolution. There is no doubt that his fascist theory is steeped in fantasies of the putsch, the violent seizure of power. And yet he remains one of the AfD’s most important regional leaders. Particularly noteworthy are the bases of support which Höcke believes will bring about his revolution. His “popular opposition”, as he calls it, consists of three “fronts.” The first is unsurprisingly his own party, the AfD. The second are street movements like Pegida (Patriotic Europeans Against the Islamization of the West), or more organic formations like the mob in Chemnitz. His third front consists of “frustrated sections of the state and security apparatus … that have to deal with the government’s insane policy and have the right to show their disapproval.” Höcke shrouds this point in legalistic terminology, but its real meaning is clear: he is suggesting that public officials and civil servants should disobey orders. In other forums, he speaks more bluntly. At right-wing demonstrations, Höcke often feels confident enough to call on police officers to refuse the orders of their superiors. His approach ultimately relies on splitting the judiciary, police, and military into two camps: into supporters and opponents of his revolution. This means undercutting the government’s authority over the state machine — an essential component for a revolution or coup. This scenario is easily dismissed as fantastical and alarmist. And yet Höcke’s focus on the “state and security apparatus” evidences a fine-tuned practical sense. This third front is a new component of his “people’s opposition,” which — drawing on the work of Rosa Luxemburg — he conceives as consisting of both a parliamentary wing and a street movement. Höcke has likely adjusted his perspective after assessing developments within his own party. After all, the AfD has become a home for policemen, soldiers and judicial officials who fall politically in between conservatism and militant right-wing extremism. Of the AfD’s ninety-four members of parliament, thirty have links to the security, legal, or military sectors. Four MPs are former prosecutors, senior prosecutors, or judges. Among them is former Dresden judge Jens Maier, who co-organized the Pegida demonstrations and is known for his particularly crass verbal attacks on Muslims. Seventeen AfD state parliamentarians have connections to the military. Seven others have connections to the police.
I would say that a term like neo-fascism seems kind of pointless within this context, since it seems kind of unnecessary to call a resurgent fascist movement "neo" just because it's been underground for a while. I don't know if there is anything particularly new about what Donald Trump is doing.
My understanding of fascism is that it's a type of authoritarian, paranoid populism which seeks to induce an emotional state where a people must unite absolutely through the single figure of a leader. This is typically a far-right movement, but can incorporate even socialist elements (see Strasserism or some of the anti-semitic strands of thought within the US populist movement), though it's always ruthlessly traditionalist and opposed to any form of liberalism. I think if you look at the US then it's already halfway there: look at Trump's personality cult, FOX News, ICE, many local police organizations. And look at, say, the QAnon or Pizzagate followers, Unite the Right, proud boys. I would call all these things basically fascist.
One discussion I read mentioned that it is not necessarily in the interest of the US elites to ally themselves with fascists. If you look at multinationals and such, they have a home within both the Democratic and Republican party and they would do very well even under liberal governance. They're currently supremely powerful, and to some extent Trump and the GOP represent a risk to USA hegemony.
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Yeah, because Maduro's no threat to the States. If Chavez was still in power they'd have jumped at the chance.
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On September 09 2018 03:38 iamthedave wrote:Yeah, because Maduro's no threat to the States. If Chavez was still in power they'd have jumped at the chance. It's almost curious that Trump hasn't started any new wars so far. He has increased the military budget and has increased military commitment to various locations in the Middle-East, but there have not been any large-scale acts of aggression of the sort that marked the Bush and Obama presidencies. I'm sure that many people within the administration want to have a war, and if the Woodward reporting is to be believed Trump even ordered war against Syria before being talked out of it.
This is hardly a dovish administration, there have been increases to the Pentagon's budget and its political star is rising. Is the world just lucky to have run into some sort of deadlock within the White House?
I had a thought that the military might in some sense be more hesitant to deploy force than civilian leadership. It is often determined civilian leadership that creates the conditions for military intervention to happen, and within the US system of government it's difficult for the Pentagon to act independently. But who knows.
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