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On August 25 2018 01:01 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2018 00:55 Broetchenholer wrote:
I think sivil service as it existed in germany was overall a good idea for our society. We do not have it anymore because we don't have the draft anymore. Funny thing was how the woman were excempted from it, as it was an alternative to the draft, from which women for some reason were excempted as well. It was usually argued that women already serve society through, well bearing children, and therefore they would not need to be included in it. So now that we don't have to serve society anymore, women should either stop getting pregnant or need to be reimbursed because men don't have to serve society anymore :D Sexism at its finest. If the program continued I think that would start to be challenged.
Just to clarify, do you call the program or my post sexist? Because i had zero problems doing 10 months of stationary care for gereatric people while women could chose to do a social year or not. Society is still hugely in favor of the male gender and even if civil service had been only done to offset this in a way, i would not have disputed it. It's hard to measure how much bringing 1,6 children into the world is worth but as long as it is earning x percent less money, civil service for men is not the worst 
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On August 25 2018 01:01 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2018 00:55 Broetchenholer wrote:
I think sivil service as it existed in germany was overall a good idea for our society. We do not have it anymore because we don't have the draft anymore. Funny thing was how the woman were excempted from it, as it was an alternative to the draft, from which women for some reason were excempted as well. It was usually argued that women already serve society through, well bearing children, and therefore they would not need to be included in it. So now that we don't have to serve society anymore, women should either stop getting pregnant or need to be reimbursed because men don't have to serve society anymore :D Sexism at its finest. If the program continued I think that would start to be challenged.
Had the same in Norway until very recently (technically still). Civil service is for those who doesn't want to go to the otherwise mandatory military, which is only for men. So women are except. That said these days, while military service is still technically obligatory according to law, they let you go if you don't want to do it.
It's sexist for sure, but it's a civilian offshoot of the military which has had several thousands of years of traditionally being sexist in almost every country (or empire I guess back then), so it's not exactly an outrage.
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On August 25 2018 01:13 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2018 01:06 Broetchenholer wrote:On August 25 2018 00:52 Biff The Understudy wrote:On August 25 2018 00:46 Grumbels wrote:On August 25 2018 00:39 Biff The Understudy wrote:On August 25 2018 00:03 IyMoon wrote:
I dislike the college fund idea. It basically just becomes mandatory for everyone but the rich.
Just make it a straight mandatory like other countries. 2 years in the military or 2 years civil service at 18. No way out except for medical exemption
Have you considered that some people have a different path and that it would be hugely detrimental to them to have to give two years of their youth to your civil service? I am a professional classical musician. My late teens, early twenty were the most crucial years of my life, the ones you learn the fastest and acquire the skill to compete on an extraordinarily competitive, globalised market. I was practicing hours and hours a day, every single day. Had I been sent to do whatever where I couldn’t spend those precious years to study, I wouldn’t have succeeded the way I did. This objection honestly seems rather fanciful to me, since people go through mandatory schooling and still emerge from high school as accomplished musicians. Most people start with their instruments when they are very young. Your 19th year is typically not the most important year of one’s musical career. And you can still practice for two hours a day in civil service anyway. In any case, I don’t think a career as professional musician is important enough that you should be able to skip on some sort of civil service. Society has jobs that need to be done, though they might be unpleasant. Most jobs are like that. Part of the reason behind the civil service idea is to get everyone to spend at least 1-2 years doing them, regardless of educational background. I am absolutely not saying that you are not deserving of what you got and that I think I know better than you what I’m talking about. 19-20 are the single most crucial years for a young musician. Two hours is nothing. You need to study full time and practice 5 hours a day at least, with as little distractions as possible. Also may I ask you how you dare saying that a career as a professional musician is not important? This is beyond insulting. It’s my whole fucking life. As for the jobs that need to be done, I pay my 40% taxes, thank you very much. You do realize that you ask for society not to have a mandatory year of civil service because musicians and pro gamers would be hindered in their chances for an international career. There are certainly other careers as well that would have that problem, but overall it's a fringe problem. And in SK or Israel pretending to have a mental issue so you can play a classical instrument is pretty entitled. A lot of people dodge the draft for mostly selfish reasons, but "i want to become a professional classical music player" is certainly the most entitled i have heard so far. Well, I simply don’t think that such things should be compulsory unless it’s absolutely necessary. And it’s not. Now if you think you should fuck up every young person who has a plan and no time to lose so that other kids can find themselves, that’s fine, but I disagree. Also I don’t think you realize what level of comitment and what sacrifices we all make to become musicians. It’s my life since I’m 12. I was home schooled from age 15. If you think that it’s about luxury and entitlement good for you. I am a member of a major european orchestra, and I probably worked harder than most of the ones pretendendon it’s all superfluous and whatnot. I personally don’t think i have lessons to receive. I realize most people never had one thing they spent their whole life dedicated to. You won’t understand why it’s obvious that you want to dodge a civil service until you have been there. It’s the one thong that matters most for us since childhood. I’m all for civil service. On a voluntary basis. If people need to do stuff because they have not found themselves, good for them. But don’t fuck up a chance of a kid to win the olympic, or have an international career as a concert artist, or whatever needs complete dedication, for absolutely no reason.
Look, i don't question your commitment and the hard labor you had to put in to reach the point you are at right now. I also don't question at all the value your job is giving back to society. I like listening to classical music and i can appreciate how hard it is having utterly failed at playing the trumpet as a child. It's just, in germany we have mandatory school until the age of 15 (i think) and no musician or athlete gets to skip that either. To say that because you have dedicated your life to something, you have earned the right to not do something society has agreed upon is mandatory is entitlement. I did not enjoy claening butts! I was 100% dedicated to enjoy my life but i had to disrupt that 5 days a week to do a job that was unpleasant and boring.
It was still good for society that i did it, i provided cheap labor and took pressure from my coworkers. I was actually useful. I would argue that even if all musicians were worse as a consequence, civil service were a net benefit to society.
And you should really not be throwing pro gamers under the bus here, you are both artists, you both need the exact same skills and you both live from people caring about your work being art.
And when it is about being thankful for a profession, musicians are really not on the top of my list. If anything you should be thankful for other professions to enable you to live your passion.
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On August 25 2018 00:37 Mohdoo wrote:We seem to be quickly approaching the end game here. https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/24/longtime-trump-organization-cfo-weisselberg-granted-immunity-in-cohen-probe-dj-citing-sources.htmlLongtime Trump Organization CFO Weisselberg granted immunity in Cohen probeShow nested quote +Allen Weisselberg, longtime chief financial officer of the Trump Organization, has been granted immunity by federal prosecutors as part of their investigation into President Donald Trump's former personal attorney, Michael Cohen, NBC News reported on Friday.
Weisselberg was subpoenaed by prosecutors earlier this year to testify before a grand jury as part of that probe.
News of Weisselberg's immunity deal follows a Thursday report that David Pecker, the chairman of publishing giant American Media, had also received federal immunity as part of the Cohen investigation. It will escalate pressure on the president, who was implicated in a number of crimes that Cohen pleaded guilty to on Tuesday in New York federal court.
Cohen admitted that he had facilitated unlawful payments to two women at Trump's direction in order to keep unfavorable information about the president, who at the time was still a candidate, from becoming public. Pecker shared information about the payments with prosecutors in exchange for immunity, including details about the president's knowledge of the payments.
Cohen seems to have been the forge that smelts the silver bullets. After Cohen's surrender, we are seeing people drop like flies. And it's not like before. Prior to Cohen, we would be able to see Mueller closing in on people, they resist, Mueller keeps pushing, eventually the person folds. After Cohen, we are seeing the grand prize folding without even a hint of resistance. It is interesting how the plan seems to be going after the Trump organization since there is a bit of uncertainty around the idea of indicting a president. If you just start out by ignoring the president, then go after the things he is extremely involved in, you can likely end up incidentally GG'ing the president. My expectation is that Weisselberg has information as damning as it gets. It is also very telling to see how Trump and his allies are taking the position of "nothing wrong" instead of "nothing illegal". I think their plan is to take the position that what they did was illegal, but not wrong. Their argument will be that it isn't a bad thing that Trump and his allies broke the law.
These recent immunities are big news. If there was any financial wrong doing then these are the people who would know and have evidence. Looks like Mueller is going hard on the campaign finance violation angle. There may even be more financial crimes we dont know about (his charity maybe?).
Seeming more and more likely that Mueller's report will state that he believes Trump obstructed justice and violated campaign laws as well as lied to the American public (a lot probably). As for the Russia collusion part we will have to wait and see what he has.
As for how Republicans in Congress will respond to his report depends entirely on how the midterm goes, right or not.
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The immunity in the Cohen case has little to do with Mueller, which is an even bigger problem for Trump. The SDNY office of New York is handling the Cohen case and it is a separate criminal matter that was discovered mostly because Stormy Daniels said she got paid off. Trump could kill the Mueller probe tomorrow and this case would be uneffected.
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On August 25 2018 01:15 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2018 00:57 Biff The Understudy wrote:On August 25 2018 00:54 Grumbels wrote:On August 25 2018 00:50 Biff The Understudy wrote:On August 25 2018 00:45 Plansix wrote:On August 25 2018 00:39 Biff The Understudy wrote:On August 25 2018 00:03 IyMoon wrote:
I dislike the college fund idea. It basically just becomes mandatory for everyone but the rich.
Just make it a straight mandatory like other countries. 2 years in the military or 2 years civil service at 18. No way out except for medical exemption
Have you considered that some people have a different path and that it would be hugely detrimental to them to have to give two years of their youth to your covil service? I am a professional musician. My late teens, early twenty were the most crucial years of my life, the ones you learn the fastest and acquire the skill to compete on an extraordinarily competitive, globalised market. I was practicing hours and hours a day, every single day. Had I been sent to do whatever where I couldn’t spend those precious years to study, I wouldn’t have succeeded the way I did. But you were lucky enough to know exactly what you wanted to do professionally. Many people don’t or have to struggle at finding foothold in any industry. I didn’t truly find my career until I was 27. The point of these civil programs would be to experience areas outside their normal lives, to see other parts of the country and to meet people that could allow them to build a career or network. And these programs represent close to zero risk to the people who would partake in them. Oh but I’m all for those programs to exist. I just don’t think they should be compulsory, because for a lot of young people it would be hugely detrimental. It would have been a catastrophe for me. I had an israeli musician girlfriend, and everyone around her had had to get a bogus psychological evaluation not to get massively behind in their studies because of the military service. You simply cannot afford to lose two years at that age in that field. It was so absurd that the army psychologist who observed her asked ger why all musician were suffering mental condition. Being a musician is a luxury career, it is not useful or essential in any way. It is like being a professional gamer or something. If you said: “oh, I should be able to avoid military service because of my potential as a LoL player”, that would be considered laughable. Especially in a country like Israel or South Korea that are constantly on the brink of war. Well, I personally think that artists bring more to the world than marketing consultants or high frequency traders. If life was only about useful things, whatever the hell you mean by that, we would have all shot ourselves a long time ago. But more generally, I think art is tremendously important for a society and a civilization. That you don’t find art more important than pro gaming speaks volume about you. I also have a pretty big objection to music being a luxury career. Entertainment and the creation of art is critical to health of any society. It gets undervalued due to capitalism’s obsessions with trackable productivity.
There's almost always ways to get out of service too, whether it's pretending you have bone spurs, or programs that allow exceptions for truly talented individuals. No one wants to accidentally mess up the next Heifetz or Serena Williams or whatever.
I think elevating musicians to this degree is a little silly. Having massive dedication to music (or pretty much anything) is certainly laudable, but it doesn't make you special. From 5 until college, I played violin at a pretty high level - never planned to do it professionally, but a lot of kids I played/ competed with went to conservatories and are now in the industry. I don't think it made us better than anyone else in any way. Maybe a little crazy, perhaps. Like, I popped aspirin to help with my aching fingers and neck so I could practice more.
Besides, most musicians, actors, etc. have to make ends meet while trying to land a full-time position, and this is not too dissimilar to that. It's not like civil/ military service is a 24/7 lockdown on your body and soul. I really don't think it's as big a detriment as is being painted here.
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On August 25 2018 01:38 Broetchenholer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2018 01:13 Biff The Understudy wrote:On August 25 2018 01:06 Broetchenholer wrote:On August 25 2018 00:52 Biff The Understudy wrote:On August 25 2018 00:46 Grumbels wrote:On August 25 2018 00:39 Biff The Understudy wrote:On August 25 2018 00:03 IyMoon wrote:
I dislike the college fund idea. It basically just becomes mandatory for everyone but the rich.
Just make it a straight mandatory like other countries. 2 years in the military or 2 years civil service at 18. No way out except for medical exemption
Have you considered that some people have a different path and that it would be hugely detrimental to them to have to give two years of their youth to your civil service? I am a professional classical musician. My late teens, early twenty were the most crucial years of my life, the ones you learn the fastest and acquire the skill to compete on an extraordinarily competitive, globalised market. I was practicing hours and hours a day, every single day. Had I been sent to do whatever where I couldn’t spend those precious years to study, I wouldn’t have succeeded the way I did. This objection honestly seems rather fanciful to me, since people go through mandatory schooling and still emerge from high school as accomplished musicians. Most people start with their instruments when they are very young. Your 19th year is typically not the most important year of one’s musical career. And you can still practice for two hours a day in civil service anyway. In any case, I don’t think a career as professional musician is important enough that you should be able to skip on some sort of civil service. Society has jobs that need to be done, though they might be unpleasant. Most jobs are like that. Part of the reason behind the civil service idea is to get everyone to spend at least 1-2 years doing them, regardless of educational background. I am absolutely not saying that you are not deserving of what you got and that I think I know better than you what I’m talking about. 19-20 are the single most crucial years for a young musician. Two hours is nothing. You need to study full time and practice 5 hours a day at least, with as little distractions as possible. Also may I ask you how you dare saying that a career as a professional musician is not important? This is beyond insulting. It’s my whole fucking life. As for the jobs that need to be done, I pay my 40% taxes, thank you very much. You do realize that you ask for society not to have a mandatory year of civil service because musicians and pro gamers would be hindered in their chances for an international career. There are certainly other careers as well that would have that problem, but overall it's a fringe problem. And in SK or Israel pretending to have a mental issue so you can play a classical instrument is pretty entitled. A lot of people dodge the draft for mostly selfish reasons, but "i want to become a professional classical music player" is certainly the most entitled i have heard so far. Well, I simply don’t think that such things should be compulsory unless it’s absolutely necessary. And it’s not. Now if you think you should fuck up every young person who has a plan and no time to lose so that other kids can find themselves, that’s fine, but I disagree. Also I don’t think you realize what level of comitment and what sacrifices we all make to become musicians. It’s my life since I’m 12. I was home schooled from age 15. If you think that it’s about luxury and entitlement good for you. I am a member of a major european orchestra, and I probably worked harder than most of the ones pretendendon it’s all superfluous and whatnot. I personally don’t think i have lessons to receive. I realize most people never had one thing they spent their whole life dedicated to. You won’t understand why it’s obvious that you want to dodge a civil service until you have been there. It’s the one thong that matters most for us since childhood. I’m all for civil service. On a voluntary basis. If people need to do stuff because they have not found themselves, good for them. But don’t fuck up a chance of a kid to win the olympic, or have an international career as a concert artist, or whatever needs complete dedication, for absolutely no reason. Look, i don't question your commitment and the hard labor you had to put in to reach the point you are at right now. I also don't question at all the value your job is giving back to society. I like listening to classical music and i can appreciate how hard it is having utterly failed at playing the trumpet as a child. It's just, in germany we have mandatory school until the age of 15 (i think) and no musician or athlete gets to skip that either. To say that because you have dedicated your life to something, you have earned the right to not do something society has agreed upon is mandatory is entitlement. I did not enjoy claening butts! I was 100% dedicated to enjoy my life but i had to disrupt that 5 days a week to do a job that was unpleasant and boring. It was still good for society that i did it, i provided cheap labor and took pressure from my coworkers. I was actually useful. I would argue that even if all musicians were worse as a consequence, civil service were a net benefit to society. And you should really not be throwing pro gamers under the bus here, you are both artists, you both need the exact same skills and you both live from people caring about your work being art. And when it is about being thankful for a profession, musicians are really not on the top of my list. If anything you should be thankful for other professions to enable you to live your passion.
Good for you, personally I am thankful to myself for working my ass off, and the 4000 or so people who listen to me every week are thankful to me to move them, and make their life richer and more interesting. I don’t see why I have anyone to thank. I provide a service at an extremely hard level for a relatively mediocre pay, and if other people haven’t followed their dreams, it’s not really my business.
As for pro gamers, they are athlete and not artists, if anything and I would rather have a society without pro league than a society without concerts. But that’s personal.
We have to go to school because it’s essential for being a whole human being. You comparison is irrelevant. A good society is a society which allows each individual to access his full potential, to exploit his talent, to work as hard as he can to be the best version of himself, and to pursuit hapiness with as little obstacles as possible.
I don’t see how your civil service helps with any if that, and I would argue, it would be on the way for many, many people.
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On August 25 2018 01:49 Plansix wrote:
The immunity in the Cohen case has little to do with Mueller, which is an even bigger problem for Trump. The SDNY office of New York is handling the Cohen case and it is a separate criminal matter that was discovered mostly because Stormy Daniels said she got paid off. Trump could kill the Mueller probe tomorrow and this case would be uneffected.
I'm talking about the immunities of Weisselberg (Trump Org), Pecker and Howard (American Media/National Enquirer). All of those have to do with possible financial crimes.
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On August 25 2018 01:44 On_Slaught wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2018 00:37 Mohdoo wrote:We seem to be quickly approaching the end game here. https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/24/longtime-trump-organization-cfo-weisselberg-granted-immunity-in-cohen-probe-dj-citing-sources.htmlLongtime Trump Organization CFO Weisselberg granted immunity in Cohen probeAllen Weisselberg, longtime chief financial officer of the Trump Organization, has been granted immunity by federal prosecutors as part of their investigation into President Donald Trump's former personal attorney, Michael Cohen, NBC News reported on Friday.
Weisselberg was subpoenaed by prosecutors earlier this year to testify before a grand jury as part of that probe.
News of Weisselberg's immunity deal follows a Thursday report that David Pecker, the chairman of publishing giant American Media, had also received federal immunity as part of the Cohen investigation. It will escalate pressure on the president, who was implicated in a number of crimes that Cohen pleaded guilty to on Tuesday in New York federal court.
Cohen admitted that he had facilitated unlawful payments to two women at Trump's direction in order to keep unfavorable information about the president, who at the time was still a candidate, from becoming public. Pecker shared information about the payments with prosecutors in exchange for immunity, including details about the president's knowledge of the payments.
Cohen seems to have been the forge that smelts the silver bullets. After Cohen's surrender, we are seeing people drop like flies. And it's not like before. Prior to Cohen, we would be able to see Mueller closing in on people, they resist, Mueller keeps pushing, eventually the person folds. After Cohen, we are seeing the grand prize folding without even a hint of resistance. It is interesting how the plan seems to be going after the Trump organization since there is a bit of uncertainty around the idea of indicting a president. If you just start out by ignoring the president, then go after the things he is extremely involved in, you can likely end up incidentally GG'ing the president. My expectation is that Weisselberg has information as damning as it gets. It is also very telling to see how Trump and his allies are taking the position of "nothing wrong" instead of "nothing illegal". I think their plan is to take the position that what they did was illegal, but not wrong. Their argument will be that it isn't a bad thing that Trump and his allies broke the law. These recent immunities are big news. If there was any financial wrong doing then these are the people who would know and have evidence. Looks like Mueller is going hard on the campaign finance violation angle. There may even be more financial crimes we dont know about (his charity maybe?). Seeming more and more likely that Mueller's report will state that he believes Trump obstructed justice and violated campaign laws as well as lied to the American public (a lot probably). As for the Russia collusion part we will have to wait and see what he has. As for how Republicans in Congress will respond to his report depends entirely on how the midterm goes, right or not.
I think the big reason Guiliani is defending Manafort so strongly is that they know Trump is going to need all the same types of defending. They are trying to get people to accept the idea that white collar crime isn't a big deal and that it shouldn't be punished by defending Manafort.
The big thing for me is the idea that it is looking like Mueller's report is going to be so conclusive that people (such as the crazy juror) will have no choice but to face the fact that Trump conclusively did a ton of illegal shit. I believe it will create a similar effect as what we saw with Clinton, but with a different group.
The somewhat reasonable, mildly centrist republicans are going to feel really weird supporting someone with a long list of provable crimes to their name. It is going to generally depress enthusiasm and support for Trump because he will have such obvious blemishes. The dedicated will still vote for him, but I see this having a generally damping effect on his support. He will lose a lot of reluctant voters the way Clinton did.
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Apparently he has been working with Trump's money (and his dads) for over 40 years. If anybody knows where the proverbial financial bodies are, it's Weisselberg.
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On August 25 2018 01:50 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2018 01:38 Broetchenholer wrote:On August 25 2018 01:13 Biff The Understudy wrote:On August 25 2018 01:06 Broetchenholer wrote:On August 25 2018 00:52 Biff The Understudy wrote:On August 25 2018 00:46 Grumbels wrote:On August 25 2018 00:39 Biff The Understudy wrote:On August 25 2018 00:03 IyMoon wrote:
I dislike the college fund idea. It basically just becomes mandatory for everyone but the rich.
Just make it a straight mandatory like other countries. 2 years in the military or 2 years civil service at 18. No way out except for medical exemption
Have you considered that some people have a different path and that it would be hugely detrimental to them to have to give two years of their youth to your civil service? I am a professional classical musician. My late teens, early twenty were the most crucial years of my life, the ones you learn the fastest and acquire the skill to compete on an extraordinarily competitive, globalised market. I was practicing hours and hours a day, every single day. Had I been sent to do whatever where I couldn’t spend those precious years to study, I wouldn’t have succeeded the way I did. This objection honestly seems rather fanciful to me, since people go through mandatory schooling and still emerge from high school as accomplished musicians. Most people start with their instruments when they are very young. Your 19th year is typically not the most important year of one’s musical career. And you can still practice for two hours a day in civil service anyway. In any case, I don’t think a career as professional musician is important enough that you should be able to skip on some sort of civil service. Society has jobs that need to be done, though they might be unpleasant. Most jobs are like that. Part of the reason behind the civil service idea is to get everyone to spend at least 1-2 years doing them, regardless of educational background. I am absolutely not saying that you are not deserving of what you got and that I think I know better than you what I’m talking about. 19-20 are the single most crucial years for a young musician. Two hours is nothing. You need to study full time and practice 5 hours a day at least, with as little distractions as possible. Also may I ask you how you dare saying that a career as a professional musician is not important? This is beyond insulting. It’s my whole fucking life. As for the jobs that need to be done, I pay my 40% taxes, thank you very much. You do realize that you ask for society not to have a mandatory year of civil service because musicians and pro gamers would be hindered in their chances for an international career. There are certainly other careers as well that would have that problem, but overall it's a fringe problem. And in SK or Israel pretending to have a mental issue so you can play a classical instrument is pretty entitled. A lot of people dodge the draft for mostly selfish reasons, but "i want to become a professional classical music player" is certainly the most entitled i have heard so far. Well, I simply don’t think that such things should be compulsory unless it’s absolutely necessary. And it’s not. Now if you think you should fuck up every young person who has a plan and no time to lose so that other kids can find themselves, that’s fine, but I disagree. Also I don’t think you realize what level of comitment and what sacrifices we all make to become musicians. It’s my life since I’m 12. I was home schooled from age 15. If you think that it’s about luxury and entitlement good for you. I am a member of a major european orchestra, and I probably worked harder than most of the ones pretendendon it’s all superfluous and whatnot. I personally don’t think i have lessons to receive. I realize most people never had one thing they spent their whole life dedicated to. You won’t understand why it’s obvious that you want to dodge a civil service until you have been there. It’s the one thong that matters most for us since childhood. I’m all for civil service. On a voluntary basis. If people need to do stuff because they have not found themselves, good for them. But don’t fuck up a chance of a kid to win the olympic, or have an international career as a concert artist, or whatever needs complete dedication, for absolutely no reason. Look, i don't question your commitment and the hard labor you had to put in to reach the point you are at right now. I also don't question at all the value your job is giving back to society. I like listening to classical music and i can appreciate how hard it is having utterly failed at playing the trumpet as a child. It's just, in germany we have mandatory school until the age of 15 (i think) and no musician or athlete gets to skip that either. To say that because you have dedicated your life to something, you have earned the right to not do something society has agreed upon is mandatory is entitlement. I did not enjoy claening butts! I was 100% dedicated to enjoy my life but i had to disrupt that 5 days a week to do a job that was unpleasant and boring. It was still good for society that i did it, i provided cheap labor and took pressure from my coworkers. I was actually useful. I would argue that even if all musicians were worse as a consequence, civil service were a net benefit to society. And you should really not be throwing pro gamers under the bus here, you are both artists, you both need the exact same skills and you both live from people caring about your work being art. And when it is about being thankful for a profession, musicians are really not on the top of my list. If anything you should be thankful for other professions to enable you to live your passion. Good for you, personally I am thankful to myself for working my ass off, and the 4000 or so people who listen to me every week are thankful to me to move them, and make their life richer and more interesting. I don’t see why I have anyone to thank. I provide a service at an extremely hard level for a relatively mediocre pay, and if other people haven’t followed their dreams, it’s not really my business. As for pro gamers, they are athlete and not artists, if anything and I would rather have a society without pro league than a society without concerts. But that’s personal. We have to go to school because it’s essential for being a whole human being. You comparison is irrelevant. A good society is a society which allows each individual to access his full potential, to exploit his talent, to work as hard as he can to be the best version of himself, and to pursuit hapiness with as little obstacles as possible. I don’t see how your civil service helps with any if that, and I would argue, it would be on the way for many, many people.
Mandatory civil service requires the haves and the have-nots to serve together doing the same work. It may interrupt some professions that exist at the global level, but the benefits could out weight the flaws.
But this is pipe dream that would never get traction in the US.
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On August 25 2018 01:59 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2018 01:50 Biff The Understudy wrote:On August 25 2018 01:38 Broetchenholer wrote:On August 25 2018 01:13 Biff The Understudy wrote:On August 25 2018 01:06 Broetchenholer wrote:On August 25 2018 00:52 Biff The Understudy wrote:On August 25 2018 00:46 Grumbels wrote:On August 25 2018 00:39 Biff The Understudy wrote:On August 25 2018 00:03 IyMoon wrote:
I dislike the college fund idea. It basically just becomes mandatory for everyone but the rich.
Just make it a straight mandatory like other countries. 2 years in the military or 2 years civil service at 18. No way out except for medical exemption
Have you considered that some people have a different path and that it would be hugely detrimental to them to have to give two years of their youth to your civil service? I am a professional classical musician. My late teens, early twenty were the most crucial years of my life, the ones you learn the fastest and acquire the skill to compete on an extraordinarily competitive, globalised market. I was practicing hours and hours a day, every single day. Had I been sent to do whatever where I couldn’t spend those precious years to study, I wouldn’t have succeeded the way I did. This objection honestly seems rather fanciful to me, since people go through mandatory schooling and still emerge from high school as accomplished musicians. Most people start with their instruments when they are very young. Your 19th year is typically not the most important year of one’s musical career. And you can still practice for two hours a day in civil service anyway. In any case, I don’t think a career as professional musician is important enough that you should be able to skip on some sort of civil service. Society has jobs that need to be done, though they might be unpleasant. Most jobs are like that. Part of the reason behind the civil service idea is to get everyone to spend at least 1-2 years doing them, regardless of educational background. I am absolutely not saying that you are not deserving of what you got and that I think I know better than you what I’m talking about. 19-20 are the single most crucial years for a young musician. Two hours is nothing. You need to study full time and practice 5 hours a day at least, with as little distractions as possible. Also may I ask you how you dare saying that a career as a professional musician is not important? This is beyond insulting. It’s my whole fucking life. As for the jobs that need to be done, I pay my 40% taxes, thank you very much. You do realize that you ask for society not to have a mandatory year of civil service because musicians and pro gamers would be hindered in their chances for an international career. There are certainly other careers as well that would have that problem, but overall it's a fringe problem. And in SK or Israel pretending to have a mental issue so you can play a classical instrument is pretty entitled. A lot of people dodge the draft for mostly selfish reasons, but "i want to become a professional classical music player" is certainly the most entitled i have heard so far. Well, I simply don’t think that such things should be compulsory unless it’s absolutely necessary. And it’s not. Now if you think you should fuck up every young person who has a plan and no time to lose so that other kids can find themselves, that’s fine, but I disagree. Also I don’t think you realize what level of comitment and what sacrifices we all make to become musicians. It’s my life since I’m 12. I was home schooled from age 15. If you think that it’s about luxury and entitlement good for you. I am a member of a major european orchestra, and I probably worked harder than most of the ones pretendendon it’s all superfluous and whatnot. I personally don’t think i have lessons to receive. I realize most people never had one thing they spent their whole life dedicated to. You won’t understand why it’s obvious that you want to dodge a civil service until you have been there. It’s the one thong that matters most for us since childhood. I’m all for civil service. On a voluntary basis. If people need to do stuff because they have not found themselves, good for them. But don’t fuck up a chance of a kid to win the olympic, or have an international career as a concert artist, or whatever needs complete dedication, for absolutely no reason. Look, i don't question your commitment and the hard labor you had to put in to reach the point you are at right now. I also don't question at all the value your job is giving back to society. I like listening to classical music and i can appreciate how hard it is having utterly failed at playing the trumpet as a child. It's just, in germany we have mandatory school until the age of 15 (i think) and no musician or athlete gets to skip that either. To say that because you have dedicated your life to something, you have earned the right to not do something society has agreed upon is mandatory is entitlement. I did not enjoy claening butts! I was 100% dedicated to enjoy my life but i had to disrupt that 5 days a week to do a job that was unpleasant and boring. It was still good for society that i did it, i provided cheap labor and took pressure from my coworkers. I was actually useful. I would argue that even if all musicians were worse as a consequence, civil service were a net benefit to society. And you should really not be throwing pro gamers under the bus here, you are both artists, you both need the exact same skills and you both live from people caring about your work being art. And when it is about being thankful for a profession, musicians are really not on the top of my list. If anything you should be thankful for other professions to enable you to live your passion. Good for you, personally I am thankful to myself for working my ass off, and the 4000 or so people who listen to me every week are thankful to me to move them, and make their life richer and more interesting. I don’t see why I have anyone to thank. I provide a service at an extremely hard level for a relatively mediocre pay, and if other people haven’t followed their dreams, it’s not really my business. As for pro gamers, they are athlete and not artists, if anything and I would rather have a society without pro league than a society without concerts. But that’s personal. We have to go to school because it’s essential for being a whole human being. You comparison is irrelevant. A good society is a society which allows each individual to access his full potential, to exploit his talent, to work as hard as he can to be the best version of himself, and to pursuit hapiness with as little obstacles as possible. I don’t see how your civil service helps with any if that, and I would argue, it would be on the way for many, many people. Mandatory civil service requires the haves and the have-nots to serve together doing the same work. It may interrupt some professions that exist at the global level, but the benefits could out weight the flaws. But this is pipe dream that would never get traction in the US.
I don’t really get the goal of it. What’s exactly the benefit of it?
If the idea is that the economy would gain from it, I personally don’t see how it’s that different from forced labour.
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This civil service idea will just lead to a year of boredom because nobody will have time to manage the work of all these people. Mass scale shitty internships in which only those with a lot of personal initiative will have enough to do (professionals will soon tire of giving task to unmotivated and/or unskilled personnel), while the others just count the days of their mandatory unpaid job where they stare out of a window half the time waiting until someone gives a new assignment
I mean it's a decent idea if it's well implemented and everybody has useful stuff to do everyday but there will be a shortage of money to coordinate it so people will get dropped somewhere and left to their devices. For some people that will work out as a good experience but not for most. I think it's a pretty cruel way of 'improving society'.
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On August 25 2018 02:07 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2018 01:59 Plansix wrote:On August 25 2018 01:50 Biff The Understudy wrote:On August 25 2018 01:38 Broetchenholer wrote:On August 25 2018 01:13 Biff The Understudy wrote:On August 25 2018 01:06 Broetchenholer wrote:On August 25 2018 00:52 Biff The Understudy wrote:On August 25 2018 00:46 Grumbels wrote:On August 25 2018 00:39 Biff The Understudy wrote:On August 25 2018 00:03 IyMoon wrote:
I dislike the college fund idea. It basically just becomes mandatory for everyone but the rich.
Just make it a straight mandatory like other countries. 2 years in the military or 2 years civil service at 18. No way out except for medical exemption
Have you considered that some people have a different path and that it would be hugely detrimental to them to have to give two years of their youth to your civil service? I am a professional classical musician. My late teens, early twenty were the most crucial years of my life, the ones you learn the fastest and acquire the skill to compete on an extraordinarily competitive, globalised market. I was practicing hours and hours a day, every single day. Had I been sent to do whatever where I couldn’t spend those precious years to study, I wouldn’t have succeeded the way I did. This objection honestly seems rather fanciful to me, since people go through mandatory schooling and still emerge from high school as accomplished musicians. Most people start with their instruments when they are very young. Your 19th year is typically not the most important year of one’s musical career. And you can still practice for two hours a day in civil service anyway. In any case, I don’t think a career as professional musician is important enough that you should be able to skip on some sort of civil service. Society has jobs that need to be done, though they might be unpleasant. Most jobs are like that. Part of the reason behind the civil service idea is to get everyone to spend at least 1-2 years doing them, regardless of educational background. I am absolutely not saying that you are not deserving of what you got and that I think I know better than you what I’m talking about. 19-20 are the single most crucial years for a young musician. Two hours is nothing. You need to study full time and practice 5 hours a day at least, with as little distractions as possible. Also may I ask you how you dare saying that a career as a professional musician is not important? This is beyond insulting. It’s my whole fucking life. As for the jobs that need to be done, I pay my 40% taxes, thank you very much. You do realize that you ask for society not to have a mandatory year of civil service because musicians and pro gamers would be hindered in their chances for an international career. There are certainly other careers as well that would have that problem, but overall it's a fringe problem. And in SK or Israel pretending to have a mental issue so you can play a classical instrument is pretty entitled. A lot of people dodge the draft for mostly selfish reasons, but "i want to become a professional classical music player" is certainly the most entitled i have heard so far. Well, I simply don’t think that such things should be compulsory unless it’s absolutely necessary. And it’s not. Now if you think you should fuck up every young person who has a plan and no time to lose so that other kids can find themselves, that’s fine, but I disagree. Also I don’t think you realize what level of comitment and what sacrifices we all make to become musicians. It’s my life since I’m 12. I was home schooled from age 15. If you think that it’s about luxury and entitlement good for you. I am a member of a major european orchestra, and I probably worked harder than most of the ones pretendendon it’s all superfluous and whatnot. I personally don’t think i have lessons to receive. I realize most people never had one thing they spent their whole life dedicated to. You won’t understand why it’s obvious that you want to dodge a civil service until you have been there. It’s the one thong that matters most for us since childhood. I’m all for civil service. On a voluntary basis. If people need to do stuff because they have not found themselves, good for them. But don’t fuck up a chance of a kid to win the olympic, or have an international career as a concert artist, or whatever needs complete dedication, for absolutely no reason. Look, i don't question your commitment and the hard labor you had to put in to reach the point you are at right now. I also don't question at all the value your job is giving back to society. I like listening to classical music and i can appreciate how hard it is having utterly failed at playing the trumpet as a child. It's just, in germany we have mandatory school until the age of 15 (i think) and no musician or athlete gets to skip that either. To say that because you have dedicated your life to something, you have earned the right to not do something society has agreed upon is mandatory is entitlement. I did not enjoy claening butts! I was 100% dedicated to enjoy my life but i had to disrupt that 5 days a week to do a job that was unpleasant and boring. It was still good for society that i did it, i provided cheap labor and took pressure from my coworkers. I was actually useful. I would argue that even if all musicians were worse as a consequence, civil service were a net benefit to society. And you should really not be throwing pro gamers under the bus here, you are both artists, you both need the exact same skills and you both live from people caring about your work being art. And when it is about being thankful for a profession, musicians are really not on the top of my list. If anything you should be thankful for other professions to enable you to live your passion. Good for you, personally I am thankful to myself for working my ass off, and the 4000 or so people who listen to me every week are thankful to me to move them, and make their life richer and more interesting. I don’t see why I have anyone to thank. I provide a service at an extremely hard level for a relatively mediocre pay, and if other people haven’t followed their dreams, it’s not really my business. As for pro gamers, they are athlete and not artists, if anything and I would rather have a society without pro league than a society without concerts. But that’s personal. We have to go to school because it’s essential for being a whole human being. You comparison is irrelevant. A good society is a society which allows each individual to access his full potential, to exploit his talent, to work as hard as he can to be the best version of himself, and to pursuit hapiness with as little obstacles as possible. I don’t see how your civil service helps with any if that, and I would argue, it would be on the way for many, many people. Mandatory civil service requires the haves and the have-nots to serve together doing the same work. It may interrupt some professions that exist at the global level, but the benefits could out weight the flaws. But this is pipe dream that would never get traction in the US. I don’t really get the goal of it. What’s exactly the benefit of it? If the idea is that the economy would gain from it, I personally don’t see how it’s that different from forced labour.
I think the skills gained are sort of a way to get a highschool'ish effect in a more "real world" way. High school gives you what is considered the bare minimum of acceptable knowledge for someone to possess. The "forced labor" defines the minimum acceptable level of skills someone can have.
Using your example of music, it is awesome and you should be very proud of how well you have done. But there are many others who work hard, but less hard than you, who end up with basically nothing. I know I don't need to explain to you how few music enthusiasts become actual musicians.
"Pursue dream --> work at Walmart" isn't entirely uncommon. Forced civil service is a way to prevent people from being excessively useless, as is the case for many failed musicians. It is the case for many failed people in general. Lots of people go to school to be a doctor, get shit grades, then work at a bank instead. The college degree has enough other stuff they push on you to where you can at least do other stuff. But when someone crashes and burns trying to be a performer of any type, they are left with basically nothing. But this is not exclusive to performers. People who are like "I wanna be a chef! xD" often end up leaving the industry within a few years. Because it blows. But they have no other skills other than their shitty culinary degree. If they knew how to build a bridge, they at least have some form of semi-skilled labor they can do for a living.
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On August 25 2018 01:55 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2018 01:44 On_Slaught wrote:On August 25 2018 00:37 Mohdoo wrote:We seem to be quickly approaching the end game here. https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/24/longtime-trump-organization-cfo-weisselberg-granted-immunity-in-cohen-probe-dj-citing-sources.htmlLongtime Trump Organization CFO Weisselberg granted immunity in Cohen probeAllen Weisselberg, longtime chief financial officer of the Trump Organization, has been granted immunity by federal prosecutors as part of their investigation into President Donald Trump's former personal attorney, Michael Cohen, NBC News reported on Friday.
Weisselberg was subpoenaed by prosecutors earlier this year to testify before a grand jury as part of that probe.
News of Weisselberg's immunity deal follows a Thursday report that David Pecker, the chairman of publishing giant American Media, had also received federal immunity as part of the Cohen investigation. It will escalate pressure on the president, who was implicated in a number of crimes that Cohen pleaded guilty to on Tuesday in New York federal court.
Cohen admitted that he had facilitated unlawful payments to two women at Trump's direction in order to keep unfavorable information about the president, who at the time was still a candidate, from becoming public. Pecker shared information about the payments with prosecutors in exchange for immunity, including details about the president's knowledge of the payments.
Cohen seems to have been the forge that smelts the silver bullets. After Cohen's surrender, we are seeing people drop like flies. And it's not like before. Prior to Cohen, we would be able to see Mueller closing in on people, they resist, Mueller keeps pushing, eventually the person folds. After Cohen, we are seeing the grand prize folding without even a hint of resistance. It is interesting how the plan seems to be going after the Trump organization since there is a bit of uncertainty around the idea of indicting a president. If you just start out by ignoring the president, then go after the things he is extremely involved in, you can likely end up incidentally GG'ing the president. My expectation is that Weisselberg has information as damning as it gets. It is also very telling to see how Trump and his allies are taking the position of "nothing wrong" instead of "nothing illegal". I think their plan is to take the position that what they did was illegal, but not wrong. Their argument will be that it isn't a bad thing that Trump and his allies broke the law. These recent immunities are big news. If there was any financial wrong doing then these are the people who would know and have evidence. Looks like Mueller is going hard on the campaign finance violation angle. There may even be more financial crimes we dont know about (his charity maybe?). Seeming more and more likely that Mueller's report will state that he believes Trump obstructed justice and violated campaign laws as well as lied to the American public (a lot probably). As for the Russia collusion part we will have to wait and see what he has. As for how Republicans in Congress will respond to his report depends entirely on how the midterm goes, right or not. I think the big reason Guiliani is defending Manafort so strongly is that they know Trump is going to need all the same types of defending. They are trying to get people to accept the idea that white collar crime isn't a big deal and that it shouldn't be punished by defending Manafort. The big thing for me is the idea that it is looking like Mueller's report is going to be so conclusive that people (such as the crazy juror) will have no choice but to face the fact that Trump conclusively did a ton of illegal shit. I believe it will create a similar effect as what we saw with Clinton, but with a different group. The somewhat reasonable, mildly centrist republicans are going to feel really weird supporting someone with a long list of provable crimes to their name. It is going to generally depress enthusiasm and support for Trump because he will have such obvious blemishes. The dedicated will still vote for him, but I see this having a generally damping effect on his support. He will lose a lot of reluctant voters the way Clinton did.
I'm not seeing the Clinton comparison you're trying to make. It feels like two very different sets of reasons. Can you elaborate/clarify your point?
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On August 25 2018 02:07 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2018 01:59 Plansix wrote:On August 25 2018 01:50 Biff The Understudy wrote:On August 25 2018 01:38 Broetchenholer wrote:On August 25 2018 01:13 Biff The Understudy wrote:On August 25 2018 01:06 Broetchenholer wrote:On August 25 2018 00:52 Biff The Understudy wrote:On August 25 2018 00:46 Grumbels wrote:On August 25 2018 00:39 Biff The Understudy wrote:On August 25 2018 00:03 IyMoon wrote:
I dislike the college fund idea. It basically just becomes mandatory for everyone but the rich.
Just make it a straight mandatory like other countries. 2 years in the military or 2 years civil service at 18. No way out except for medical exemption
Have you considered that some people have a different path and that it would be hugely detrimental to them to have to give two years of their youth to your civil service? I am a professional classical musician. My late teens, early twenty were the most crucial years of my life, the ones you learn the fastest and acquire the skill to compete on an extraordinarily competitive, globalised market. I was practicing hours and hours a day, every single day. Had I been sent to do whatever where I couldn’t spend those precious years to study, I wouldn’t have succeeded the way I did. This objection honestly seems rather fanciful to me, since people go through mandatory schooling and still emerge from high school as accomplished musicians. Most people start with their instruments when they are very young. Your 19th year is typically not the most important year of one’s musical career. And you can still practice for two hours a day in civil service anyway. In any case, I don’t think a career as professional musician is important enough that you should be able to skip on some sort of civil service. Society has jobs that need to be done, though they might be unpleasant. Most jobs are like that. Part of the reason behind the civil service idea is to get everyone to spend at least 1-2 years doing them, regardless of educational background. I am absolutely not saying that you are not deserving of what you got and that I think I know better than you what I’m talking about. 19-20 are the single most crucial years for a young musician. Two hours is nothing. You need to study full time and practice 5 hours a day at least, with as little distractions as possible. Also may I ask you how you dare saying that a career as a professional musician is not important? This is beyond insulting. It’s my whole fucking life. As for the jobs that need to be done, I pay my 40% taxes, thank you very much. You do realize that you ask for society not to have a mandatory year of civil service because musicians and pro gamers would be hindered in their chances for an international career. There are certainly other careers as well that would have that problem, but overall it's a fringe problem. And in SK or Israel pretending to have a mental issue so you can play a classical instrument is pretty entitled. A lot of people dodge the draft for mostly selfish reasons, but "i want to become a professional classical music player" is certainly the most entitled i have heard so far. Well, I simply don’t think that such things should be compulsory unless it’s absolutely necessary. And it’s not. Now if you think you should fuck up every young person who has a plan and no time to lose so that other kids can find themselves, that’s fine, but I disagree. Also I don’t think you realize what level of comitment and what sacrifices we all make to become musicians. It’s my life since I’m 12. I was home schooled from age 15. If you think that it’s about luxury and entitlement good for you. I am a member of a major european orchestra, and I probably worked harder than most of the ones pretendendon it’s all superfluous and whatnot. I personally don’t think i have lessons to receive. I realize most people never had one thing they spent their whole life dedicated to. You won’t understand why it’s obvious that you want to dodge a civil service until you have been there. It’s the one thong that matters most for us since childhood. I’m all for civil service. On a voluntary basis. If people need to do stuff because they have not found themselves, good for them. But don’t fuck up a chance of a kid to win the olympic, or have an international career as a concert artist, or whatever needs complete dedication, for absolutely no reason. Look, i don't question your commitment and the hard labor you had to put in to reach the point you are at right now. I also don't question at all the value your job is giving back to society. I like listening to classical music and i can appreciate how hard it is having utterly failed at playing the trumpet as a child. It's just, in germany we have mandatory school until the age of 15 (i think) and no musician or athlete gets to skip that either. To say that because you have dedicated your life to something, you have earned the right to not do something society has agreed upon is mandatory is entitlement. I did not enjoy claening butts! I was 100% dedicated to enjoy my life but i had to disrupt that 5 days a week to do a job that was unpleasant and boring. It was still good for society that i did it, i provided cheap labor and took pressure from my coworkers. I was actually useful. I would argue that even if all musicians were worse as a consequence, civil service were a net benefit to society. And you should really not be throwing pro gamers under the bus here, you are both artists, you both need the exact same skills and you both live from people caring about your work being art. And when it is about being thankful for a profession, musicians are really not on the top of my list. If anything you should be thankful for other professions to enable you to live your passion. Good for you, personally I am thankful to myself for working my ass off, and the 4000 or so people who listen to me every week are thankful to me to move them, and make their life richer and more interesting. I don’t see why I have anyone to thank. I provide a service at an extremely hard level for a relatively mediocre pay, and if other people haven’t followed their dreams, it’s not really my business. As for pro gamers, they are athlete and not artists, if anything and I would rather have a society without pro league than a society without concerts. But that’s personal. We have to go to school because it’s essential for being a whole human being. You comparison is irrelevant. A good society is a society which allows each individual to access his full potential, to exploit his talent, to work as hard as he can to be the best version of himself, and to pursuit hapiness with as little obstacles as possible. I don’t see how your civil service helps with any if that, and I would argue, it would be on the way for many, many people. Mandatory civil service requires the haves and the have-nots to serve together doing the same work. It may interrupt some professions that exist at the global level, but the benefits could out weight the flaws. But this is pipe dream that would never get traction in the US. I don’t really get the goal of it. What’s exactly the benefit of it? If the idea is that the economy would gain from it, I personally don’t see how it’s that different from forced labour.
I am thinking of the benefits to the people involved and the undercutting of capitalistic theory that everyone needs to be building towards increased production their entire lives. Plus the level of the playing field for rich working with the poor for the good of the general public.
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On August 25 2018 02:27 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2018 01:55 Mohdoo wrote:On August 25 2018 01:44 On_Slaught wrote:On August 25 2018 00:37 Mohdoo wrote:We seem to be quickly approaching the end game here. https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/24/longtime-trump-organization-cfo-weisselberg-granted-immunity-in-cohen-probe-dj-citing-sources.htmlLongtime Trump Organization CFO Weisselberg granted immunity in Cohen probeAllen Weisselberg, longtime chief financial officer of the Trump Organization, has been granted immunity by federal prosecutors as part of their investigation into President Donald Trump's former personal attorney, Michael Cohen, NBC News reported on Friday.
Weisselberg was subpoenaed by prosecutors earlier this year to testify before a grand jury as part of that probe.
News of Weisselberg's immunity deal follows a Thursday report that David Pecker, the chairman of publishing giant American Media, had also received federal immunity as part of the Cohen investigation. It will escalate pressure on the president, who was implicated in a number of crimes that Cohen pleaded guilty to on Tuesday in New York federal court.
Cohen admitted that he had facilitated unlawful payments to two women at Trump's direction in order to keep unfavorable information about the president, who at the time was still a candidate, from becoming public. Pecker shared information about the payments with prosecutors in exchange for immunity, including details about the president's knowledge of the payments.
Cohen seems to have been the forge that smelts the silver bullets. After Cohen's surrender, we are seeing people drop like flies. And it's not like before. Prior to Cohen, we would be able to see Mueller closing in on people, they resist, Mueller keeps pushing, eventually the person folds. After Cohen, we are seeing the grand prize folding without even a hint of resistance. It is interesting how the plan seems to be going after the Trump organization since there is a bit of uncertainty around the idea of indicting a president. If you just start out by ignoring the president, then go after the things he is extremely involved in, you can likely end up incidentally GG'ing the president. My expectation is that Weisselberg has information as damning as it gets. It is also very telling to see how Trump and his allies are taking the position of "nothing wrong" instead of "nothing illegal". I think their plan is to take the position that what they did was illegal, but not wrong. Their argument will be that it isn't a bad thing that Trump and his allies broke the law. These recent immunities are big news. If there was any financial wrong doing then these are the people who would know and have evidence. Looks like Mueller is going hard on the campaign finance violation angle. There may even be more financial crimes we dont know about (his charity maybe?). Seeming more and more likely that Mueller's report will state that he believes Trump obstructed justice and violated campaign laws as well as lied to the American public (a lot probably). As for the Russia collusion part we will have to wait and see what he has. As for how Republicans in Congress will respond to his report depends entirely on how the midterm goes, right or not. I think the big reason Guiliani is defending Manafort so strongly is that they know Trump is going to need all the same types of defending. They are trying to get people to accept the idea that white collar crime isn't a big deal and that it shouldn't be punished by defending Manafort. The big thing for me is the idea that it is looking like Mueller's report is going to be so conclusive that people (such as the crazy juror) will have no choice but to face the fact that Trump conclusively did a ton of illegal shit. I believe it will create a similar effect as what we saw with Clinton, but with a different group. The somewhat reasonable, mildly centrist republicans are going to feel really weird supporting someone with a long list of provable crimes to their name. It is going to generally depress enthusiasm and support for Trump because he will have such obvious blemishes. The dedicated will still vote for him, but I see this having a generally damping effect on his support. He will lose a lot of reluctant voters the way Clinton did. I'm not seeing the Clinton comparison you're trying to make. It feels like two very different sets of reasons. Can you elaborate/clarify your point?
I think a lot of people wanted to like Clinton, but ultimately saw too much shady, elitist, establishment undertones. They definitely preferred her over Trump, but not enough to get out and vote for her. Similarly, a different group of people are lifelong conservatives and would clearly prefer to have a Jeb right now, but see Trump as the anti-Clinton. They voted for him because they felt like they had to and a lot of the legal stuff against Trump was pretty undeveloped.
There have been more than a few people on this board who are still not COMPLETELY convinced Trump and his gang did a bunch of illegal shit. Many people are unwilling to negatively judge someone for shadiness, especially when it is someone on "your own team" until an actual figure of authority declares they have done illegal stuff. When Mueller finally comes out and lays out everything illegal about Trump's dealings/campaign, it will become a lot more difficult to deny the obvious.
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On August 25 2018 01:50 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2018 01:38 Broetchenholer wrote:On August 25 2018 01:13 Biff The Understudy wrote:On August 25 2018 01:06 Broetchenholer wrote:On August 25 2018 00:52 Biff The Understudy wrote:On August 25 2018 00:46 Grumbels wrote:On August 25 2018 00:39 Biff The Understudy wrote:On August 25 2018 00:03 IyMoon wrote:
I dislike the college fund idea. It basically just becomes mandatory for everyone but the rich.
Just make it a straight mandatory like other countries. 2 years in the military or 2 years civil service at 18. No way out except for medical exemption
Have you considered that some people have a different path and that it would be hugely detrimental to them to have to give two years of their youth to your civil service? I am a professional classical musician. My late teens, early twenty were the most crucial years of my life, the ones you learn the fastest and acquire the skill to compete on an extraordinarily competitive, globalised market. I was practicing hours and hours a day, every single day. Had I been sent to do whatever where I couldn’t spend those precious years to study, I wouldn’t have succeeded the way I did. This objection honestly seems rather fanciful to me, since people go through mandatory schooling and still emerge from high school as accomplished musicians. Most people start with their instruments when they are very young. Your 19th year is typically not the most important year of one’s musical career. And you can still practice for two hours a day in civil service anyway. In any case, I don’t think a career as professional musician is important enough that you should be able to skip on some sort of civil service. Society has jobs that need to be done, though they might be unpleasant. Most jobs are like that. Part of the reason behind the civil service idea is to get everyone to spend at least 1-2 years doing them, regardless of educational background. I am absolutely not saying that you are not deserving of what you got and that I think I know better than you what I’m talking about. 19-20 are the single most crucial years for a young musician. Two hours is nothing. You need to study full time and practice 5 hours a day at least, with as little distractions as possible. Also may I ask you how you dare saying that a career as a professional musician is not important? This is beyond insulting. It’s my whole fucking life. As for the jobs that need to be done, I pay my 40% taxes, thank you very much. You do realize that you ask for society not to have a mandatory year of civil service because musicians and pro gamers would be hindered in their chances for an international career. There are certainly other careers as well that would have that problem, but overall it's a fringe problem. And in SK or Israel pretending to have a mental issue so you can play a classical instrument is pretty entitled. A lot of people dodge the draft for mostly selfish reasons, but "i want to become a professional classical music player" is certainly the most entitled i have heard so far. Well, I simply don’t think that such things should be compulsory unless it’s absolutely necessary. And it’s not. Now if you think you should fuck up every young person who has a plan and no time to lose so that other kids can find themselves, that’s fine, but I disagree. Also I don’t think you realize what level of comitment and what sacrifices we all make to become musicians. It’s my life since I’m 12. I was home schooled from age 15. If you think that it’s about luxury and entitlement good for you. I am a member of a major european orchestra, and I probably worked harder than most of the ones pretendendon it’s all superfluous and whatnot. I personally don’t think i have lessons to receive. I realize most people never had one thing they spent their whole life dedicated to. You won’t understand why it’s obvious that you want to dodge a civil service until you have been there. It’s the one thong that matters most for us since childhood. I’m all for civil service. On a voluntary basis. If people need to do stuff because they have not found themselves, good for them. But don’t fuck up a chance of a kid to win the olympic, or have an international career as a concert artist, or whatever needs complete dedication, for absolutely no reason. Look, i don't question your commitment and the hard labor you had to put in to reach the point you are at right now. I also don't question at all the value your job is giving back to society. I like listening to classical music and i can appreciate how hard it is having utterly failed at playing the trumpet as a child. It's just, in germany we have mandatory school until the age of 15 (i think) and no musician or athlete gets to skip that either. To say that because you have dedicated your life to something, you have earned the right to not do something society has agreed upon is mandatory is entitlement. I did not enjoy claening butts! I was 100% dedicated to enjoy my life but i had to disrupt that 5 days a week to do a job that was unpleasant and boring. It was still good for society that i did it, i provided cheap labor and took pressure from my coworkers. I was actually useful. I would argue that even if all musicians were worse as a consequence, civil service were a net benefit to society. And you should really not be throwing pro gamers under the bus here, you are both artists, you both need the exact same skills and you both live from people caring about your work being art. And when it is about being thankful for a profession, musicians are really not on the top of my list. If anything you should be thankful for other professions to enable you to live your passion. Good for you, personally I am thankful to myself for working my ass off, and the 4000 or so people who listen to me every week are thankful to me to move them, and make their life richer and more interesting. I don’t see why I have anyone to thank. I provide a service at an extremely hard level for a relatively mediocre pay, and if other people haven’t followed their dreams, it’s not really my business. As for pro gamers, they are athlete and not artists, if anything and I would rather have a society without pro league than a society without concerts. But that’s personal. We have to go to school because it’s essential for being a whole human being. You comparison is irrelevant. A good society is a society which allows each individual to access his full potential, to exploit his talent, to work as hard as he can to be the best version of himself, and to pursuit hapiness with as little obstacles as possible. I don’t see how your civil service helps with any if that, and I would argue, it would be on the way for many, many people.
Oh please, how entitled must you be to celebrate that you managed to avoid 2 years service just so you can celebrate succeed whilst those who couldn't dodge it cannot? Do you think nobody else would had rather they spent those 2 years to gain valuable skills either? Do you really think that somehow your life is just that bit more valuable just becuase you are a successful musician and your worth as a human being is more valuable just because you was able to gain 2 years of practice over other musicans that couldn't? I just can't over how entitled, how the the special snowflake mentality, I am enriching people's life, therefore I should avoid service, it is. In that respect, then I would say yes, wiping butts for 2 years is certainly enriching life more, and certainly the life of those in the hospital and care home.
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On August 25 2018 02:30 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2018 02:07 Biff The Understudy wrote:On August 25 2018 01:59 Plansix wrote:On August 25 2018 01:50 Biff The Understudy wrote:On August 25 2018 01:38 Broetchenholer wrote:On August 25 2018 01:13 Biff The Understudy wrote:On August 25 2018 01:06 Broetchenholer wrote:On August 25 2018 00:52 Biff The Understudy wrote:On August 25 2018 00:46 Grumbels wrote:On August 25 2018 00:39 Biff The Understudy wrote:
[quote]
Have you considered that some people have a different path and that it would be hugely detrimental to them to have to give two years of their youth to your civil service?
I am a professional classical musician. My late teens, early twenty were the most crucial years of my life, the ones you learn the fastest and acquire the skill to compete on an extraordinarily competitive, globalised market. I was practicing hours and hours a day, every single day. Had I been sent to do whatever where I couldn’t spend those precious years to study, I wouldn’t have succeeded the way I did. This objection honestly seems rather fanciful to me, since people go through mandatory schooling and still emerge from high school as accomplished musicians. Most people start with their instruments when they are very young. Your 19th year is typically not the most important year of one’s musical career. And you can still practice for two hours a day in civil service anyway. In any case, I don’t think a career as professional musician is important enough that you should be able to skip on some sort of civil service. Society has jobs that need to be done, though they might be unpleasant. Most jobs are like that. Part of the reason behind the civil service idea is to get everyone to spend at least 1-2 years doing them, regardless of educational background. I am absolutely not saying that you are not deserving of what you got and that I think I know better than you what I’m talking about. 19-20 are the single most crucial years for a young musician. Two hours is nothing. You need to study full time and practice 5 hours a day at least, with as little distractions as possible. Also may I ask you how you dare saying that a career as a professional musician is not important? This is beyond insulting. It’s my whole fucking life. As for the jobs that need to be done, I pay my 40% taxes, thank you very much. You do realize that you ask for society not to have a mandatory year of civil service because musicians and pro gamers would be hindered in their chances for an international career. There are certainly other careers as well that would have that problem, but overall it's a fringe problem. And in SK or Israel pretending to have a mental issue so you can play a classical instrument is pretty entitled. A lot of people dodge the draft for mostly selfish reasons, but "i want to become a professional classical music player" is certainly the most entitled i have heard so far. Well, I simply don’t think that such things should be compulsory unless it’s absolutely necessary. And it’s not. Now if you think you should fuck up every young person who has a plan and no time to lose so that other kids can find themselves, that’s fine, but I disagree. Also I don’t think you realize what level of comitment and what sacrifices we all make to become musicians. It’s my life since I’m 12. I was home schooled from age 15. If you think that it’s about luxury and entitlement good for you. I am a member of a major european orchestra, and I probably worked harder than most of the ones pretendendon it’s all superfluous and whatnot. I personally don’t think i have lessons to receive. I realize most people never had one thing they spent their whole life dedicated to. You won’t understand why it’s obvious that you want to dodge a civil service until you have been there. It’s the one thong that matters most for us since childhood. I’m all for civil service. On a voluntary basis. If people need to do stuff because they have not found themselves, good for them. But don’t fuck up a chance of a kid to win the olympic, or have an international career as a concert artist, or whatever needs complete dedication, for absolutely no reason. Look, i don't question your commitment and the hard labor you had to put in to reach the point you are at right now. I also don't question at all the value your job is giving back to society. I like listening to classical music and i can appreciate how hard it is having utterly failed at playing the trumpet as a child. It's just, in germany we have mandatory school until the age of 15 (i think) and no musician or athlete gets to skip that either. To say that because you have dedicated your life to something, you have earned the right to not do something society has agreed upon is mandatory is entitlement. I did not enjoy claening butts! I was 100% dedicated to enjoy my life but i had to disrupt that 5 days a week to do a job that was unpleasant and boring. It was still good for society that i did it, i provided cheap labor and took pressure from my coworkers. I was actually useful. I would argue that even if all musicians were worse as a consequence, civil service were a net benefit to society. And you should really not be throwing pro gamers under the bus here, you are both artists, you both need the exact same skills and you both live from people caring about your work being art. And when it is about being thankful for a profession, musicians are really not on the top of my list. If anything you should be thankful for other professions to enable you to live your passion. Good for you, personally I am thankful to myself for working my ass off, and the 4000 or so people who listen to me every week are thankful to me to move them, and make their life richer and more interesting. I don’t see why I have anyone to thank. I provide a service at an extremely hard level for a relatively mediocre pay, and if other people haven’t followed their dreams, it’s not really my business. As for pro gamers, they are athlete and not artists, if anything and I would rather have a society without pro league than a society without concerts. But that’s personal. We have to go to school because it’s essential for being a whole human being. You comparison is irrelevant. A good society is a society which allows each individual to access his full potential, to exploit his talent, to work as hard as he can to be the best version of himself, and to pursuit hapiness with as little obstacles as possible. I don’t see how your civil service helps with any if that, and I would argue, it would be on the way for many, many people. Mandatory civil service requires the haves and the have-nots to serve together doing the same work. It may interrupt some professions that exist at the global level, but the benefits could out weight the flaws. But this is pipe dream that would never get traction in the US. I don’t really get the goal of it. What’s exactly the benefit of it? If the idea is that the economy would gain from it, I personally don’t see how it’s that different from forced labour. I am thinking of the benefits to the people involved and the undercutting of capitalistic theory that everyone needs to be building towards increased production their entire lives. Plus the level of the playing field for rich working with the poor for the good of the general public.
Don't forget that while many here are proud of it, the fact that a significant portion of Americans will never live more than 50 miles away from where they were born is a huge component of our nation's seemingly terminal sense of discord. Folks eager to chalk up the US' coming out of the Great Depression to WWII too easily forget how much cohesion began via implementation of New Deal federal jobs programs, many of which requires folks to move far away from home.
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