EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 602
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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12502 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
On August 09 2018 04:23 zlefin wrote: it doesn't; when everyone knows where everyone stands, there's not so much to talk about. also, the nature of online discussion tends to mean the reasonable people have gone and only the crazies remain. people who aren't opinionated or don't feel strongly tend not to post; but those are the ones where you can make the most progress and have the most interesting discussions. also, people tend to not want to talk about policy (and most of us don't know enough to talk about it well anyways). with the new rules you can't use the thread as a sort of newsfeed either. I find it can still be beneficial to argue back and forth, because it brings the issue or disagreement into sharper clarity. You at least are seeing the other sides arguments. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States24253 Posts
On August 09 2018 04:51 Nebuchad wrote: I didn't want to start this but I do want to talk about it. The newspaper I work at is publishing an unbelievably shitty article on that story. It's talking about this very speech from Maduro but zero mention of possible US or colombian involvement, zero mention of revendication by the group who revendicated or the Lucchese guy, "according to Maduro" every two sentences and "attack" in parenthesis, denials by opposition leaders cited as fact... Sounds like one that Gor would be much more apt to believe. Why exactly, I'm not sure. On August 09 2018 04:53 Plansix wrote: Not for nothing, but loading up a drone with some C4 isn’t rocket science. Both of those things exist in South America without the assistance of the US. I could buy a drone that could carry that much C4 today(2 pounds) and be flying in my back yard this afternoon. Not saying that isn’t something the US would attempt, but this is an staggering amount of information they have discovered in a very short period of time. I don't think anyone is suggesting that because they were flying a $1500 (*edit turns out it was upwards of $5k) drone that the US had to be involved. So it is kinda "for nothing". As to the info, capturing people alive helps, we would have known a lot about 9/11 right away, since as the 9/11 report shows, we knew the hijackers and their networks pretty well beforehand. | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
On August 09 2018 04:50 GreenHorizons wrote: Is it that different than "Unpopular country suffers terrorist attack, blames foreign country, invades wrong one and bombs several others in self-defense"? You do have to concede that it's something the US has done and would do again, no? Attempting to assassinate anti-capitalist leaders of other countries that is. Whereas Maduro making it up would be something we haven't seen before, correct? While absolutely i'd say that the US could be behind a assassination of a foreign leader, they'd do it a little bit different than sticking a firecracker to a drone. More importantly, it's important to keep in mind that he's not loved by his people either, with even the Media calling him a dictator - and he's, for all intents and purposes, actually not recognised as the leader of Venezuela. Neither by his people, nor by most of the world (apart from the usual suspects like Turkey, russia, NK, iran etc). edit: In fact, there seems to be a known venezuelan.. "group" that already claimed the attack, Soldados de Franelas. Other thing to point out, it's very likely the US would've known that there's signal inhibitors at the stage, and the drones wouldn't have made it there. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States24253 Posts
On August 09 2018 04:57 m4ini wrote: While absolutely i'd say that the US could be behind a assassination of a foreign leader, they'd do it a little bit different than sticking a firecracker to a drone. More importantly, it's important to keep in mind that he's not loved by his people either, with even the Media calling him a dictator - and he's, for all intents and purposes, actually not recognised as the leader of Venezuela. Neither by his people, nor by most of the world (apart from the usual suspects like Turkey, russia, NK, iran etc). Who is the leader of Venezuela in your world? Just to be clear, the US didn't exactly hide it's intentions either. "We are very hopeful that there can be a transition in Venezuela," everyone knows wtf that means. | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
On August 09 2018 05:03 GreenHorizons wrote: Who is the leader of Venezuela in your world? Define "my world". Like, "the real world"? They don't have a functioning government. That's what "he's not recognised as leader by more than 80% of the world" means. But of course. Evul americans. Not the disenfranchised people of his country that he fucked majorly. Nor the known group claiming the attack. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12502 Posts
On August 09 2018 05:09 m4ini wrote: But of course. Evul americans. Not the disenfranchised people of his country that he fucked majorly. Nor the known group claiming the attack. Maduro's version is obviously that the group claiming the attack was backed by the US, isn't it? | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States24253 Posts
On August 09 2018 05:09 m4ini wrote: Define "my world". Like, "the real world"? They don't have a functioning government. That's what "he's not recognised as leader by more than 80% of the world" means. But of course. Evul americans. Not the disenfranchised people of his country that he fucked majorly. Nor the known group claiming the attack. Like I added, the US wasn't too shy about it's intentions. It's exactly what would be expected from a group like Pompeo, Bolton, and Trump. It's weird to see people so sincerely cape for that trio, Pompeo and Bolton just better hope no random person (because corporate media won't risk it) asks Trump about it, he probably doesn't remember to deny our involvement and would brag about it, and blame the terrorists failure on being losers. | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
On August 09 2018 05:11 Nebuchad wrote: Maduro's version is obviously that the group claiming the attack was backed by the US, isn't it? Yes and no. Americans, colombians and people from bogota (bogotanists?). What's more important though, is who they caught so far. Government authorities said Sunday that they have detained six people – whom they described as "terrorists and assassins" – in connection with the attack. Among those detained: a man who took part in 2014 protests against the government and a man who had a warrant out for his arrest for attacking a military barracks. Maduro accused the “far right,” working with conspirators in Miami and Bogota –including Colombian President Juan Manuel Santos – of launching the attack. Colombia’s government has denied any role in the violence. And yes, i think he's claiming that the US supports (not the secret service, the US itself) terrorist groups in Venezuela. Which again, is absolutely possible and in no way would i defend the US against claims like this. If it weren't for this. Venezuela is in the midst of an economic crisis that has been described as worse than the Great Depression that devastated the United States and much of the rest of the world in the 1930s. The inflation rate is set to hit a stunning 13,000 percent this year. There are shortages of food and medicine and a soaring crime rate, spurring refugees to flee into neighboring countries. More than 600,000 Venezuelans have crossed into Colombia, and Brazil has declared a state of emergency because of all the Venezuelans sweeping into that nation. Maduro is viewed by the United States and other democratic countries as a corrupt, left-wing dictator who imposes strict controls on his people and on the press. He won re-election to a six-year term in May, but the process was widely viewed as a rigged farce. The Trump administration imposed new economic sanctions on Venezuela immediately after the election in an effort to stop Maduro from selling off government debt to enrich himself. To instantly go "the US lol as usual" is more than moronic. Like I added, the US wasn't too shy about it's intentions. It's exactly what would be expected from a group like Pompeo, Bolton, and Trump. No doubt, Bolton is one of the worst human beings i've ever seen on television (and one of the dumbest in terms of foreign politics, i'd even go as far as saying that he's worse than trump because you know he wants a war, doesn't matter with whom, as long as there's a war). But it still is more far fetched than millions living under Maduro, while watching him literally destroy the country. It's not a "lol trump destroys the US", Maduro destroyed Venezuela. It's considerably more likely that an attacker, which btw there are many, attacking military etc, took it a step further. | ||
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Sermokala
United States14187 Posts
At least a semi competent sniper even. Give me a hardware store and a lumber yard and I'll do a better job then these guys. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22519 Posts
On August 09 2018 04:50 GreenHorizons wrote: You got enough straw there to fill a barn.Is it that different than "Unpopular country suffers terrorist attack, blames foreign country, invades wrong one and bombs several others in self-defense"? You do have to concede that it's something the US has done and would do again, no? Attempting to assassinate anti-capitalist leaders of other countries that is. Whereas Maduro making it up would be something we haven't seen before, correct? How about you react to the actual post instead of making up your own statements about how the US is evul and arguing against those. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States24253 Posts
On August 09 2018 05:18 m4ini wrote: Yes and no. Americans, colombians and people from bogota (bogotanists?). What's more important though, is who they caught so far. And yes, i think he's claiming that the US supports (not the secret service, the US itself) terrorist groups in Venezuela. Which again, is absolutely possible and in no way would i defend the US against claims like this. If it weren't for this. To instantly go "the US lol as usual" is more than moronic. It's not moronic, it's the sensible conclusion. Your economic portion seems to completely leave out the crippling sanctions imposed by the US and allies in order to hurt their economy. Whether the sanctions will achieve their intended effect of destabilizing the government remains to be seen, but some experts cautioned that the moves could actually hurt Venezuelans in the short term. There was also Trump's threats of a military option in Venezuela. What's moronic imo is thinking this isn't part of a clear pattern of the US and something they foreshadowed for more than a year. On August 09 2018 05:22 Gorsameth wrote: You got enough straw there to fill a barn. How about you react to the actual post instead of making up your own statements about how the US is evul and arguing against those. You might want to start with more than a "lol US is evul but people don't like Maduro so there" On August 09 2018 05:21 Sermokala wrote: I remember watching clear and present danger where the cartels used rpgs to assassinate in an ambush. It seemed logical and a lot more effective idea then all of the attempted assasination attempts I see. Surely the cia has a bit more competency and ability then two cheap drones to fire worse missles then the Lebanese can craft. At least a semi competent sniper even. Give me a hardware store and a lumber yard and I'll do a better job then these guys. I think the CIA/State Department might have a job for you. I hear it pays pretty well. ~$50m | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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m4ini
4215 Posts
On August 09 2018 05:21 Sermokala wrote: I remember watching clear and present danger where the cartels used rpgs to assassinate in an ambush. It seemed logical and a lot more effective idea then all of the attempted assasination attempts I see. Surely the cia has a bit more competency and ability then two cheap drones to fire worse missles then the Lebanese can craft. At least a semi competent sniper even. Give me a hardware store and a lumber yard and I'll do a better job then these guys. Actually, those drones (according to pictures i saw) are around 5 grand each. Maybe they're chinese clones, but they look suspiciously similar to DJI Matrice 600s. Professional camera equipment. But you're right of course, intelligence services would've known about the drone shield (hell, you can buy 2.4-5.8ghz frequency blockers on banggood). That's something pretty important. I'd even go as far as argue that that's the reason why one exploded midair - the pilot was losing signal on both video feed (if he had one) and RSSI, and just popped it. http://efectococuyo.com/principales/dron-usado-en-supuesto-atentado-a-maduro-cuesta-hasta-8-000-dolares/ There's a picture of the drone being used. I don’t’ think anyone is here to defend the Trump administration’s efforts. Only to caution jumping to conclusions that the US supplied them with two drones and 2 pounds of C4 based on Venezuela’s not so functional government. Don't get all sensible here. Didn't you see all the evidence for his claim by GreenHorizons? Like it totally could be the US, so it's moronic to assume otherwise? Dude. Seriously. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States24253 Posts
On August 09 2018 05:29 Plansix wrote: I don’t’ think anyone is here to defend the Trump administration’s efforts. Only to caution jumping to conclusions that the US supplied them with two drones and 2 pounds of C4 based on Venezuela’s not so functional government. Literally no one said that. It's the second time you've suggested that's what this was about despite literally no one putting forward that argument. Please stop. Lol, and just like that someone calls your completely fabricated strawman "sensible"... How people have put forth absolutely nothing supporting their assumption that the US's open support of regime change in no way could have been related to attempt to change regimes and not feel totally asinine reminds me of how you guys treat blind Trump supporters. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12502 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 09 2018 05:31 GreenHorizons wrote: Literally no one said that. It's the second time you've suggested that's what this was about despite literally no one putting forward that argument. Please stop. Lol, and just like that someone calls your completely fabricated strawman "sensible"... How people have put forth absolutely nothing supporting their assumption that the US's open support of regime change in no way could have been related to attempt to change regimes and not feel totally asinine reminds me of how you guys treat blind Trump supporters. You literally posted the article stating that the US was up to its old games. https://www.liquiddota.com/forum/general/532255-us-politics-mega-thread?page=601#12018 So if you are not arguing the US is behind it, what are you saying? Are you saying we can safely assume it was the US? | ||
Falling
Canada11593 Posts
You are familiar with Ockham's Razor? As with any plot, it's sensible to assume the simplest explanation (anti-Maduro radicals attempting an assassination) and wait for more evidence before concluding that it was the CIA. CIA backing the plot needs to be sufficiently proven way before it needs to be disproven. edit. re: Nebuchad. It's not that I am assuming CIA did not do it. It's that I am agnostic on the matter. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 09 2018 05:35 Nebuchad wrote: I mean Plansix is right, we shouldn't be jumping to conclusions. His post would resonate more if everyone else in the thread wasn't jumping to the conclusion that the US didn't do it, but still... I give it a sold 50/50 that is somehow involved the US vs opposition groups obtained two drones and some C4 through other means. There is like a .000000000001 % chance this is some next level tactic by the government to frame the US as trying to kill their leader. | ||
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