EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 603
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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12559 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States24377 Posts
On August 09 2018 05:37 Plansix wrote: You literally posted the article stating that the US was up to its old games. https://www.liquiddota.com/forum/general/532255-us-politics-mega-thread?page=601#12018 So if you are not arguing the US is behind it, what are you saying? Are you saying we can safely assume it was the US? First, that's a completely different argument than the fabricated bullshit about the drones you put forward 2x I'm saying that the US, beyond it's threats of invasion, crippling sanctions openly intended to destabilize the country/economy, and long history of supporting some of the most gruesome and heinous groups as well as training them and providing funding etc... "looks" like it's still up to it's old games. Actively pushing for regime change, so much so as not even condemning the attempted assassination of a (unrecognized by the US and Allies) world leader. And being accused (with evidence, even if one doesn't trust it) of being tied to it. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 09 2018 05:41 Nebuchad wrote: I'm still mostly amazed that tomorrow my newspaper is going to have an article that heavily implies that there was no attack at all... I hadn’t followed it that closely, but it sounds like both of the drones failed to deliver their payload and were captured by the government, fully intact. I think implying that attack allegedly took place is a bit much. But if your paper can’t confirm the attack through eye witnesses, they should disclose that. Edit: GH, that was always my argument, that we don't know who did it yet. You just couldn't' be bothered to ask for clarification. | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
And being accused (with evidence, even if one doesn't trust it) of being tied to it. Here's the important part. It's not that someone doesn't trust it here: nobody has actually seen it. Post it, it might swing everyone into your camp. As is, we only have indications at best. And those do not necessarily point to the US alone. I hadn’t followed it that closely, but it sounds like both of the drones failed to deliver their payload and were captured by the government, fully intact. I think implying that attack allegedly took place is a bit much. But if your paper can’t confirm the attack through eye witnesses, they should disclose that. Uhm.. No. https://www.bellingcat.com/news/americas/2018/08/07/drones-attack-maduro-caracas/ Pictures of first drone losing control/hitting a wall and exploding, and video of second drone exploding midair. I'd argue they got the C4 part right, or something similar. It's not black powder based - i'm not sure if it's a kilogram though, maybe i overestimate C4 but i think a kg would look different. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States24377 Posts
On August 09 2018 05:47 Plansix wrote: I hadn’t followed it that closely, but it sounds like both of the drones failed to deliver their payload and were captured by the government, fully intact. I think implying that attack allegedly took place is a bit much. But if your paper can’t confirm the attack through eye witnesses, they should disclose that. Edit: GH, that was always my argument, that we don't know who did it yet. You just couldn't' be bothered to ask for clarification. No. You mentioned some bullshit about Drones and a cheap-shot about Venezuela's economy and I pointed out that no one was making that argument. You repeated it, I called you out again, now you're doing this. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 09 2018 05:50 GreenHorizons wrote: No. You mentioned some bullshit about Drones and a cheap-shot about Venezuela's economy and I pointed out that no one was making that argument. You repeated it, I called you out again, now you're doing this. If you put a little thought behind what I said, you would have realized that I mean they could have acquired the drones from anyone in the world. Same with the C4, which is not unique to the US. Stop being so personally offended when people disagree with the conclusions you jump to. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States24377 Posts
On August 09 2018 05:52 Plansix wrote: If you put a little thought behind what I said, you would have realized that I mean they could have acquired the drones from anyone in the world. Same with the C4, which is not unique to the US. Stop being so personally offended when people disagree with the conclusions you jump to. Pretty sure everyone knows exactly what you meant. It wasn't complicated. It just had nothing to do with anything. I don't know who would be foolish enough to assume those couldn't be obtained without US support so I can't understand why you would refute a claim literally no one was making or assuming. Or at least thinking it had any value to the discussion. On August 09 2018 05:49 m4ini wrote: Here's the important part. It's not that someone doesn't trust it here: nobody has actually seen it. Post it, it might swing everyone into your camp. As is, we only have indications at best. And those do not necessarily point to the US alone. Uhm.. No. https://www.bellingcat.com/news/americas/2018/08/07/drones-attack-maduro-caracas/ Pictures of first drone losing control/hitting a wall and exploding, and video of second drone exploding midair. I'd argue they got the C4 part right, or something similar. It's not black powder based - i'm not sure if it's a kilogram though, maybe i overestimate C4 but i think a kg would look different. + Show Spoiler + Step by step: evidence of the assassination attempt -A drone was located in the business center Cipreses by the group number 2, referred to as “group BRAVO.” It was manipulated from the 10th floor by a terrorist group trained in the Colombian town of Chinacota, in the northern province of Santander. -The terrorists made preparatory observations ahead of the attempt on the July 24 parade in the state of Carabobo, yet did not eventually launch the attack then because of a lack of preparation, just as they eventually canceled on July 5 on the celebration of the Independence. -They were confirmed that the public event on Aug.4 would take place on Avenida Bolivar in the afternoon, instead of the Avenida Los Proceres, and brought a drone to this location —the one the military officials identified and technological teams neutralized. -They lifted the drone above all the structures of the Supreme Tribunal of Justice, but it was then disturbed in its trajectory by technological equipment —used in order to inhibit signals. Meanwhile, the first group activated the second drone. -They had planned to use two drones, one that would explode with a pentrite chemical component, while the second one was meant to draw the attention somewhere else by crashing against a building called Don Eduardo, exploding with a C4 component. -Maduro reported that he was immediately told there was an attack going on and tried to organize immediately the evacuation in a bid to preserve the security of the crowd. -Ten minutes later, Maduro received a call from the Armed Forces' General saying they had caught two people with drone command equipment that seemed to be involved in the attack, then a few minutes later they caught others. “People's intelligence allowed the quick apprehension of these terrorists.” -Identified terrorists include: Rayder Russo, resident of Colombia, and Osman Delgado, resident of the United States. -More raids are being carried out in order to arrest other groups involved in the consummation of the attack. -The masterminds of the attack are people who participated in the 2017 violent demonstrations in Venezuela. -The people involved in the attack were offered US50 million and residency in the United States. I started with that. Where are you on that? | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
On August 09 2018 05:54 GreenHorizons wrote: Pretty sure everyone knows exactly what you meant. It wasn't complicated. It just had nothing to do with anything. I don't know who would be foolish enough to assume those couldn't be obtained without US support so I can't understand why you would refute a claim literally no one was making or assuming. Dude, instead of foaming around here, just make a clear statement. What were you trying to say, because clearly, people seem to misunderstand it. Lets go from there. edit: @Plansix Uhm.. No. https://www.bellingcat.com/news/americas/2018/08/07/drones-attack-maduro-caracas/ Pictures of first drone losing control/hitting a wall and exploding, and video of second drone exploding midair. I'd argue they got the C4 part right, or something similar. It's not black powder based - i'm not sure if it's a kilogram though, maybe i overestimate C4 but i think a kg would look different. Earlier edit. edit2 I started with that. Where are you on that? Link please. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States24377 Posts
On August 09 2018 05:55 m4ini wrote: Dude, instead of foaming around here, just make a clear statement. What were you trying to say, because clearly, people seem to misunderstand it. Lets go from there. edit: @Plansix Earlier edit. edit2 Link please. Let's start there. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/general/532255-us-politics-mega-thread?page=601#12018 | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
On August 09 2018 06:03 GreenHorizons wrote: Let's start there. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/general/532255-us-politics-mega-thread?page=601#12018 Okay. Next step. Literally your first sentence in that posting is "looks like the US is still up to its old games", just to make sure that your claim of "you people argue nothing i said" is baseless - you very much implied that the US "looks like to be involved". But lets go to the substance of the statement: Well i can't. There's none. There's claims step by step, including pointing out how heroic Maduro is. Yeah, it's interesting information if true. But come on man. Believing this, or better: not doubting this is on the same level as trusting that america always does the right thing. You only need to look at your own government to understand the levels of bullshit here. The only way this gets resolved (and in fact, people including Luis Almagro are calling for it) is by a group of international experts. I'd go as far as yeah, without US experts - send the dutch. As is, there's zero evidence for anything, just claims by Maduro and claims by the alleged group that orchestrated the attack. edit: to be clear, and i said it before: i absolutely would believe if someone shows actual evidence (fabricated or not, just something) that the US is behind everything, or "pushed for it". But so far, there's really nothing other than a bad relationship between Venezuela (since Chavez) and the US. And that's me saying that as someone who thinks that the US is the reason for pretty much everything shit in the middle east currently. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States24377 Posts
On August 09 2018 06:12 m4ini wrote: Okay. Next step. Literally your first sentence in that posting is "looks like the US is still up to its old games", just to make sure that your claim of "you people argue nothing i said" is baseless - you very much implied that the US "looks like to be involved". But lets go to the substance of the statement: Well i can't. There's none. There's claims step by step, including pointing out how heroic Maduro is. Yeah, it's interesting information if true. But come on man. Believing this, or better: not doubting this is on the same level as trusting that america always does the right thing. You only need to look at your own government to understand the levels of bullshit here. The only way this gets resolved (and in fact, people including Luis Almagro are calling for it) is by a group of international experts. I'd go as far as yeah, without US experts - send the dutch. As is, there's zero evidence for anything, just claims by Maduro and claims by the alleged group that orchestrated the attack. You're confusing arguments, just to be clear. P6 specifically was arguing against a completely fabricated point I wasn't making, which would have been something to the effect of "they couldn't have got those drones without US help" which I nor anyone else made so I see no reason other than to tear down one's own strawman to say it in the first place. There isn't really a neutral party to be found in the world so it's mostly just putting together a group that aren't just US allies with economic ties that Trump may tweet about if they say the wrong thing. As I said, it would be more out of character for the US not to try to assassinate him than to be connected to this. While not a direct connection to this specific assassination attempt, there was plenty leading up to this that suggested the US does support the attempt on his life (even if just implicitly), as well as not condemning it. Not to mention not being their first attempt in the country this side of 2000. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
It is also zero evidence that the CIA isn't involved. The arguemnts that the CIA would be competent holds no water, and CIA isn't going to be sending American trained military personel to assasinate Maduro; they need the plausible deniability and lack of trace back to them. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States24377 Posts
On August 09 2018 06:12 m4ini wrote: Okay. Next step. Literally your first sentence in that posting is "looks like the US is still up to its old games", just to make sure that your claim of "you people argue nothing i said" is baseless - you very much implied that the US "looks like to be involved". But lets go to the substance of the statement: Well i can't. There's none. There's claims step by step, including pointing out how heroic Maduro is. Yeah, it's interesting information if true. But come on man. Believing this, or better: not doubting this is on the same level as trusting that america always does the right thing. You only need to look at your own government to understand the levels of bullshit here. The only way this gets resolved (and in fact, people including Luis Almagro are calling for it) is by a group of international experts. I'd go as far as yeah, without US experts - send the dutch. As is, there's zero evidence for anything, just claims by Maduro and claims by the alleged group that orchestrated the attack. You're confusing arguments, just to be clear. P6 specifically was arguing against a completely fabricated point I wasn't making, which would have been something to the effect of "they couldn't have got those drones without US help" which I nor anyone else made so I see no reason other than to tear down one's own strawman to say it in the first place. There isn't really a neutral party to be found in the world so it's mostly just putting together a group that aren't just US allies with economic ties that Trump may tweet about if they say the wrong thing. As I said, it would be more out of character for the US not to try to assassinate him than to be connected to this. While not a direct connection to this specific assassination attempt, there was plenty leading up to this that suggested the US does support the attempt on his life (even if just implicitly), as well as not condemning it. Not to mention not being their first attempt in the country this side of 2000. edit: to be clear, and i said it before: i absolutely would believe if someone shows actual evidence (fabricated or not, just something) that the US is behind everything, or "pushed for it". But so far, there's really nothing other than a bad relationship between Venezuela (since Chavez) and the US. And that's me saying that as someone who thinks that the US is the reason for pretty much everything shit in the middle east currently. I wouldn't call openly calling for regime change and meeting with opposition groups, instituting economic sanctions intended to destabilize the country, and so on "no evidence the US pushed for it". We've made one thing clear though, our government does NOT condemn it. | ||
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On_Slaught
United States12190 Posts
The book is likely full of garbage but tapes make her a lot more potentially dangerous than the other Trump insider tell alls. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 09 2018 06:29 GreenHorizons wrote: P6 specifically was arguing against a completely fabricated point I wasn't making, which would have been something to the effect of "they couldn't have got those drones without US help" which I nor anyone else made so I see no reason other than to tear down one's own strawman to say it in the first place. I never argued that. My posts says the US could have provided the drones or helped with the attack. On August 09 2018 04:53 Plansix wrote: Not for nothing, but loading up a drone with some C4 isn’t rocket science. Both of those things exist in South America without the assistance of the US. I could buy a drone that could carry that much C4 today(2 pounds) and be flying in my back yard this afternoon. Not saying that isn’t something the US would attempt, but this is an staggering amount of information they have discovered in a very short period of time. This is my exact post. I cautioned against believing that it was from the US based only on press release from the Venezuelan goverment. The only one setting up a strawman is you for no real reason. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States24377 Posts
On August 09 2018 06:40 Plansix wrote: I never argued that. My posts says the US could have provided the drones or helped with the attack. This is my exact post. I cautioned against believing that it was from the US based only on press release from the Venezuelan goverment. The only one setting up a strawman is you for no real reason. The bold is you building and knocking down a strawman of your own creation, a caution for literally no one. No one was "believing that it was from the US based only on press release from the Venezuelan goverment." either. Please stop doing this. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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On_Slaught
United States12190 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States24377 Posts
On August 09 2018 06:44 Plansix wrote: I literally don't even know what you are arguing anymore. I'm reasonably confident you never did. And just posted something asinine to feel relevant to the discussion. That or you were simply trying to undermine the accusations by building a strawman you were comfortable knocking down. I suppose only you know which. User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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