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Northern Ireland24293 Posts
On February 15 2025 02:30 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2025 02:13 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On February 15 2025 02:01 Jockmcplop wrote:On February 15 2025 01:57 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On February 15 2025 01:42 Jockmcplop wrote:On February 15 2025 00:58 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On February 15 2025 00:53 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 15 2025 00:11 Jockmcplop wrote:On February 15 2025 00:08 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 14 2025 23:46 Jockmcplop wrote:
[quote]
This point is interesting to me. Its basically a trolley problem.
The only people who didn't vote for death, destruction and chaos in Gaza are the people who didn't vote for either party. While that's semantically correct, keep in mind those people are still complicit in the death, destruction, and chaos in Gaza, just like everyone else. They don't have any moral high ground in regards to what's been going on in Gaza, or any future devastation there. Additionally, those non-Democratic voters certainly didn't vote for any domestic improvements either. I disagree. Simply existing does make you complicit in anything. Making a positive choice to be complicit in something makes you complicit. Let me put this another way. How is a person supposed to convince the Democrats to change their policy without threatening to withhold their vote, and actually meaning it? It is the only lever anybody has. What do you mean by "change their policy"? The Democratic policy wouldn't improve as a result of them losing the election; the only thing that would change is that Palestinians would have to deal with the Republican policy, which is even worse. Biden worked to create a ceasefire between Hamas and Israel - the very one that's still mostly working right now, even while Trump is president - and during the election, Harris repeatedly pledged to continue pushing for a peaceful end where Gaza/Palestinians aren't completely overrun by Israel. The Democrats' two-state solution where Palestinians still exist would have been a much better situation than what Trump was/is pushing for, where he's okay with Israel taking over completely. The non-Democratic voters worked against the Democrats' vision and ended up aiding the Republicans' vision, which is about as anti-Gaza as you could get. (One could argue that Biden/Harris didn't/wouldn't do everything in their power to stop Netanyahu, and that Biden/Harris are extremely flawed when it comes to this issue, but they're still miles ahead of Trump's vision... and non-Democratic voters weren't willing to pick the more helpful of the two options.) It's like talking to the Rs in this thread. The people like Jock and GH have this moral highground that they're unwilling to come down off of because they can't fathom being wrong in this case. The people who voted Ds aren't complicit in the war in Gaza or Ukraine. They're trying to get people in positions to stop it using democratic methods. Now they have to justify fuckin up the vote and convince themselves that abstaining from participating was the correct choice. Conciousness aside. This isn't about the right thing to do, it's about what makes them feel better when they go to sleep. "I tried but no one listened, guess that's all I can do. Time for napsies." This is the third time i've told I'm trying to take the moral high ground, when I joined this conversation to try and empathize with the people that Dem voters were claiming were responsible for everything Trump is doing. It is you (collective), not I, who was taking the moral high ground, and you don't even notice yourselves doing it. Its not like the Democrats haven't been told, repeatedly, by every single non Democrat in America, that this behaviour is a massive turn off and gives out the impression that a) The Democrats and their voters believe they have the moral high ground absolutely b) Are perfectly happy telling everyone else they are evil c) Are incredibly arrogant about their self-defined position on the top of the moral superiority pyramid. The problem is the refusal to even try and see anyone else's point of view. I've been told in this very thread that if I was a Palestinian who has watched their family slaughtered because of the policies of Democrats, that I should still vote Democrat. The lack of empathy is absolutely astonishing tbh. On February 15 2025 01:08 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 15 2025 00:59 Jockmcplop wrote:On February 15 2025 00:53 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 15 2025 00:11 Jockmcplop wrote:On February 15 2025 00:08 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
[quote]
While that's semantically correct, keep in mind those people are still complicit in the death, destruction, and chaos in Gaza, just like everyone else. They don't have any moral high ground in regards to what's been going on in Gaza, or any future devastation there. Additionally, those non-Democratic voters certainly didn't vote for any domestic improvements either. I disagree. Simply existing does make you complicit in anything. Making a positive choice to be complicit in something makes you complicit. Let me put this another way. How is a person supposed to convince the Democrats to change their policy without threatening to withhold their vote, and actually meaning it? It is the only lever anybody has. What do you mean by "change their policy"? The Democratic policy wouldn't improve as a result of them losing the election; the only thing that would change is that Palestinians would have to deal with the Republican policy, which is even worse. Biden worked to create a ceasefire between Hamas and Israel - the very one that's still mostly working right now, even while Trump is president - and during the election, Harris repeatedly pledged to continue pushing for a peaceful end where Gaza/Palestinians aren't completely overrun by Israel. The Democrats' two-state solution where Palestinians still exist would have been a much better situation than what Trump was/is pushing for, where he's okay with Israel taking over completely. The non-Democratic voters worked against the Democrats' vision and ended up aiding the Republicans' vision, which is about as anti-Gaza as you could get. (One could argue that Biden/Harris didn't/wouldn't do everything in their power to stop Netanyahu, and that Biden/Harris are extremely flawed when it comes to this issue, but they're still miles ahead of Trump's vision... and non-Democratic voters weren't willing to pick the more helpful of the two options.) By 'change their policy' I mean stop selling the weapons that kill the civilians in Gaza, stop unconditionally supporting any extremity of action that Israel decides is appropriate, and stop being the single world power who more than anyone else has caused this genocide to occur. Sure, well done, they engineered a ceasefire after so many civilians unnecessarily died at the hands of the US's little brother while the Democrats sat there and applauded, but for me, that doesn't inspire me to vote for them. I get it, you are unconditionally a Dem voter, but you shouldn't assume that everyone else will give their vote out so easily. And let's be clear here, the Democrats' vision wasn't a ceasefire and then peace forever, it was a ceasefire that allows them restock Israel with newer, more expensive weapons for the next round of massacre in a few years. Okay, so let's play it out your way, according to your argument: A bunch of people decided not to vote for Kamala Harris because they were convinced that Harris losing would result in the Democrats finally changing their Israel-Palestine policy to be more pro-Palestine and less pro-Israel. How'd that plan work out for you / the non-Democratic voters? Do we see any indication that the Democratic party is now shifting towards being more pro-Palestine? Do we have any reason to think that Palestinians will be safer, thanks to non-Democratic voters aiding Trump? In the short term, for the next few years, you have a good point here. It all falls apart if you look any further ahead than that. Why would the democrats ever need to listen to what their voters want again? They can just dictate what you are going to vote for and you'll vote for it to keep the Republicans out. Long term, I believe it is very helpful for political parties to genuinely believe that people will stop voting for them if they don't listen to their voters. That is the entire purpose of not voting Democrat in this case. It isn't going to make the lives of people in Gaza better, that horse has bolted. The ship has sailed. The people of Gaza are fucked because the Democrats decided it could be so. Maybe though, next time the Democrats are in the middle of a genocide and an election is coming up, they'll think twice about their policies. We recognized what the Ds did in the campaign that probably led to their defeat and we also gave a lot of benefit of the doubt to what was being said. But time and time again, all we're getting are people bashing the D party for things that the Rs did or refused to cooperate on. So all you're doing, by continuing to bash Ds and not hold Rs responsible for the shitshow we're currently seeing, is allowing them to grab more of the power. We understand the problems and have offered solutions. But those solutions aren't palatable to people like you and GH (collective). What you effectively want are for the Ds to assume total power and just kick the Rs out and invite a civil war to try and accelerate whatever asinine ideas you dream up. That isn't how it works. This entire thread is just a circular argument. I don't think I have a moral superiority over you or GH. But I know that pouting because your ideal candidate didn't get in and handing the country to fascism isn't the play. Either put up or shut up. If you're not going to participate, then what grounds do you have to stand on to tell those that are, what to do? At the end of the day, we're a bunch of strangers on the internet arguing. It's not helping. Again, this simply is not what happened and is not reflective of my participation in the discussion at all. You're acting like I just turned up and started blaming Democrats for everything. I'm here because I just don't buy the argument that was being made that anyone who didn't vote Democrat is responsible for everything that Trump decides to do. You are flipping that on its head and claiming that in defending those people, I'm somehow attacking the Democrats. edited for niceness And I'm saying that it is precisely the issue of them not supporting the platform that allowed this takeover. I'm not saying you personally, it's a collective. GH sits here and shits on the Ds for failing, but at the same time, it was enough people who were Ds that voted trump/third party/did not vote that caused this. And they are assigned some of the blame. To pin it all on the Ds is shifting blame so that they don't have to feel bad. You're welcome to defend them and I'm sure they and others appreciate it. But at the end of the day, they are also to blame and should be held accountable for that as well as the D party. The D voters voted to keep trump out and it didn't work. The messaging was bad and the play was bad. But to now sit back and attack D voters because they voted? What's the angle or prize you're fishing for? The prize I'm fishing for I suppose is a Democrat party that listens to its voters a little bit more, or frankly a Democrat party that listens to voters who share my perspective on world events. I don't think I'll see that in my lifetime, but I definitely won't see it if people give the Democrat their vote unconditionally. I'm also fishing for just a little bit of give and take here. I understand the argument that rationally, voting for the Dems is marginally better for the people of Gaza in the short term. I think in the long term it is worse for reasons I have described. I also think that some acknowledgement that rationality, although very important, can be overridden in certain circumstances. Of course no Palestinian is going to vote for the party that took part in the slaughter of their family. Engaging with the topic on a human level, that should be obvious. Yet even when discussing that quite extreme example, people fall back on logic and rationality and refuse to empathize with those for whom that kind of discussion has gone out of the window. There's a whole middle ground as well with general Middle-Eastern voters who feel that it is 'their people' that the Democrats have taken part in killing. I would wager that for alot of those people, voting rationally for a tiny percentage gain in survivability for the people of Gaza has gone out of the window just through sheer anger and sadness. To dismiss this and then blame those people for what Trump is doing is something I just can't get my head around. Then we finally get to the people on this forum who are making arguments. There's no recognition that maybe some people engage with these world events on an emotional level and simply cannot bring themselves to vote for people who are taking part in genocide. There's no 'Maybe these people think completely different to how I think about events'. Its simply a numbers game. Calculate the percentage and vote accordingly. Rationality wins. Except as we've seen, it doesn't. The human element of this, the refusal to take part in something that a person sees as evil, is important even if it seems irrational and the numbers don't add up in the very short term.
I think, by and large quite a lot of the thread broadly agree with rather a lot of this, at least based on posting histories.
I know I do, broadly, speaking!
I think the friction point comes from something of a have your cake and eat it scenario. Voting is complicity in whatever thing crosses a red line, but the consequences of that don’t have anything to do with me.
I also think people here are perfectly aware of the emotive element of politics, but this also swings both ways. I’m sure trans folk are feeling quite a lot of strong emotions now they’re at the political mercy of the GOP for the next wee stretch.
More generally I’ve consistently bemoaned the combo of don’t court the left/blame them for political losses, not just in the States and elsewhere, so you’re basically preaching to the converted.
But speaking of the converted, well you gotta convert people. Bridges have to be built or we’re collectively fucked.
If roughly half of the country is now what medicine would clinically term completely fucking mental, there’s only so much of a post-mortem and blame apportioning the rest can indulge in before that elephant in the room shuffles over and smacks you with its glorious, glistening trunk.
It need not necessitate dropping one’s principles either, for the most part, merely communicate and build things better.
It need not necessitate eating the delicious dish of humble pie either, but folks are gonna have to concede some things.
In terms of individuals in the populace, not the Dem Party, folks pursued courses of action aligning with their values, that they earnestly thought would work.
But it didn’t work, hey it happens.
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It is concerning to see Trump's mob trying so hard to protect Adams. He must have some kinda profound value to Trump for some terrible reason.
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Its because it shows if you pledge fealty to him you can be above the law.
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Please explain the bolded. trump is president. He won the popular vote. Most people obviously voted for this. The keyword is voted. If you didn't vote, you don't get to bitch at those that voted for the opposite of what is going on now.
People can bitch at whatever they want, most people absolutely did not vote for this, most voters voted for wanting this, its an important distinction because assigning beliefs to people out of inaction is silly and is one of the many reasons that Democrats fuck up elections.
Instead of viewing people who don't vote as ideologically attached to whoever wins the election (or lets be real, whoever its convenient to attach themselves to, noone ever attaches them to the Democrat side when a Democrat wins lmao) people should probably start to ask why dont people vote. I imagine the answer is people are largely disenfranchised and exhausted and depressed in a world that is very harsh and shitty to them.
Voting hasnt solved any problems in their lives, they would rather sleep in than get up early and vote for two partys that demonstrably do not get a shit about their problems.
People can get all game theory about why they should always vote and who they should always vote for, but it doesn't reflect reality and doesnt do anything but make Democrats look like a pack of scolds given Democrats do about as much as the average non-voter. Fuck all.
To make a possibly problematic comparison, its like asking why didnt the slaves simply immediately revolt and hang their masters? They must want to be slaves!
Its just more complicated than that, and in my opinion people go into a libertarian-belief-system brand logical organism mindset when people are actually messy and fractured and formed by their socieities and to some extent just want to get by in their lives within that society.
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On February 15 2025 09:09 Sadist wrote:
Its because it shows if you pledge fealty to him you can be above the law.
To be fair, the Democrat governor could remove him, but Democrats favorite to replace him is also corrupt and a creep too.
He's also an asshole about immigration.
Reminds me of a quip: “The United States is also a one-party state but, with typical American extravagance, they have two of them.” – Julius Nyerere
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On February 15 2025 09:09 Sadist wrote:
Its because it shows if you pledge fealty to him you can be above the law.
I think that must be a part of it. But just looking at the extent to which they are cleaning house to make sure Adams is protected sure does look abnormal.
Then again, maybe this is just a good opportunity to do all this cleaning up? Maybe Adams himself isn't incredibly important but more so he's the first one getting this type of treatment.
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United States42217 Posts
On February 15 2025 09:14 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +Please explain the bolded. trump is president. He won the popular vote. Most people obviously voted for this. The keyword is voted. If you didn't vote, you don't get to bitch at those that voted for the opposite of what is going on now. People can bitch at whatever they want, most people absolutely did not vote for this, most voters voted for wanting this, its an important distinction because assigning beliefs to people out of inaction is silly and is one of the many reasons that Democrats fuck up elections. Instead of viewing people who don't vote as ideologically attached to whoever wins the election (or lets be real, whoever its convenient to attach themselves to, noone ever attaches them to the Democrat side when a Democrat wins lmao) people should probably start to ask why dont people vote. I imagine the answer is people are largely disenfranchised and exhausted and depressed in a world that is very harsh and shitty to them. Voting hasnt solved any problems in their lives, they would rather sleep in than get up early and vote for two partys that demonstrably do not get a shit about their problems. People can get all game theory about why they should always vote and who they should always vote for, but it doesn't reflect reality and doesnt do anything but make Democrats look like a pack of scolds given Democrats do about as much as the average non-voter. Fuck all. To make a possibly problematic comparison, its like asking why didnt the slaves simply immediately revolt and hang their masters? They must want to be slaves! Its just more complicated than that, and in my opinion people go into a libertarian-belief-system brand logical organism mindset when people are actually messy and fractured and formed by their socieities and to some extent just want to get by in their lives within that society.
Voting absolutely solves their problems. Remember how all those cities were being burned down but then the burning stopped and the cities actually grew back so completely it looks like they were never burned at all? Remember how all the bathrooms were taken over by trans women but now you don’t see them at all? Remember how there was a horde of migrants invading the country but then they all disappeared?
They were bombarded with hundreds of problems each day that were equal parts confusing and terrifying. They were told that voting for a despot would solve those problems. Those problems have now all gone.
The idea that Americans haven’t ever seen a government that solves their problems is simply nonsense. Hell, look at the very first days of this presidency. Southern California was on fire. Trump decisively ordered all the agricultural drought emergency reservoirs in Central California to be drained directly into the Pacific. Southern California is no longer on fire. Another win.
You ivory tower elitists think you know better about the problems facing real Americans but you just don’t. You just drone on and on about macroeconomic theory or something like that has any relevance to the man on the street. What does that have to do with whether the green m&m looks fuckable? Nothing.
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United States24615 Posts
The administration is attempting to fire not only probationary civil servants (which is bullshit but hard to fight) but others as well without following proper processes. I imagine the courts will be even more gummed up.
I'm still waiting to encounter some type of loyalty test where I have to answer if Jan6th was an inside job or something like that. So far, direct impacts have been confusing-as-hell [guidance about / restrictions on] remote work/telework (I am usually in-office regardless) and a temporary pause on my work while we figure out if my work is exempt, which was apparently resolved.
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On February 15 2025 09:48 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2025 09:14 Zambrah wrote:Please explain the bolded. trump is president. He won the popular vote. Most people obviously voted for this. The keyword is voted. If you didn't vote, you don't get to bitch at those that voted for the opposite of what is going on now. People can bitch at whatever they want, most people absolutely did not vote for this, most voters voted for wanting this, its an important distinction because assigning beliefs to people out of inaction is silly and is one of the many reasons that Democrats fuck up elections. Instead of viewing people who don't vote as ideologically attached to whoever wins the election (or lets be real, whoever its convenient to attach themselves to, noone ever attaches them to the Democrat side when a Democrat wins lmao) people should probably start to ask why dont people vote. I imagine the answer is people are largely disenfranchised and exhausted and depressed in a world that is very harsh and shitty to them. Voting hasnt solved any problems in their lives, they would rather sleep in than get up early and vote for two partys that demonstrably do not get a shit about their problems. People can get all game theory about why they should always vote and who they should always vote for, but it doesn't reflect reality and doesnt do anything but make Democrats look like a pack of scolds given Democrats do about as much as the average non-voter. Fuck all. To make a possibly problematic comparison, its like asking why didnt the slaves simply immediately revolt and hang their masters? They must want to be slaves! Its just more complicated than that, and in my opinion people go into a libertarian-belief-system brand logical organism mindset when people are actually messy and fractured and formed by their socieities and to some extent just want to get by in their lives within that society. Voting absolutely solves their problems. Remember how all those cities were being burned down but then the burning stopped and the cities actually grew back so completely it looks like they were never burned at all? Remember how all the bathrooms were taken over by trans women but now you don’t see them at all? Remember how there was a horde of migrants invading the country but then they all disappeared? They were bombarded with hundreds of problems each day that were equal parts confusing and terrifying. They were told that voting for a despot would solve those problems. Those problems have now all gone. The idea that Americans haven’t ever seen a government that solves their problems is simply nonsense. Hell, look at the very first days of this presidency. Southern California was on fire. Trump decisively ordered all the agricultural drought emergency reservoirs in Central California to be drained directly into the Pacific. Southern California is no longer on fire. Another win. You ivory tower elitists think you know better about the problems facing real Americans but you just don’t. You just drone on and on about macroeconomic theory or something like that has any relevance to the man on the street. What does that have to do with whether the green m&m looks fuckable? Nothing.
This grim reality is the reason part of me wonders if widespread political uprising is even possible in the current age of social media. AI bots getting better, algorithms more sophisticated, people being less connected to in-person stuff. Its all super dark.
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On February 15 2025 09:48 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2025 09:14 Zambrah wrote:Please explain the bolded. trump is president. He won the popular vote. Most people obviously voted for this. The keyword is voted. If you didn't vote, you don't get to bitch at those that voted for the opposite of what is going on now. People can bitch at whatever they want, most people absolutely did not vote for this, most voters voted for wanting this, its an important distinction because assigning beliefs to people out of inaction is silly and is one of the many reasons that Democrats fuck up elections. Instead of viewing people who don't vote as ideologically attached to whoever wins the election (or lets be real, whoever its convenient to attach themselves to, noone ever attaches them to the Democrat side when a Democrat wins lmao) people should probably start to ask why dont people vote. I imagine the answer is people are largely disenfranchised and exhausted and depressed in a world that is very harsh and shitty to them. Voting hasnt solved any problems in their lives, they would rather sleep in than get up early and vote for two partys that demonstrably do not get a shit about their problems. People can get all game theory about why they should always vote and who they should always vote for, but it doesn't reflect reality and doesnt do anything but make Democrats look like a pack of scolds given Democrats do about as much as the average non-voter. Fuck all. To make a possibly problematic comparison, its like asking why didnt the slaves simply immediately revolt and hang their masters? They must want to be slaves! Its just more complicated than that, and in my opinion people go into a libertarian-belief-system brand logical organism mindset when people are actually messy and fractured and formed by their socieities and to some extent just want to get by in their lives within that society. Voting absolutely solves their problems. Remember how all those cities were being burned down but then the burning stopped and the cities actually grew back so completely it looks like they were never burned at all? Remember how all the bathrooms were taken over by trans women but now you don’t see them at all? Remember how there was a horde of migrants invading the country but then they all disappeared? They were bombarded with hundreds of problems each day that were equal parts confusing and terrifying. They were told that voting for a despot would solve those problems. Those problems have now all gone. The idea that Americans haven’t ever seen a government that solves their problems is simply nonsense. Hell, look at the very first days of this presidency. Southern California was on fire. Trump decisively ordered all the agricultural drought emergency reservoirs in Central California to be drained directly into the Pacific. Southern California is no longer on fire. Another win. You ivory tower elitists think you know better about the problems facing real Americans but you just don’t. You just drone on and on about macroeconomic theory or something like that has any relevance to the man on the street. What does that have to do with whether the green m&m looks fuckable? Nothing.
There are like three types of post this could be and Im too sick to be able to categorize it right now
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On February 15 2025 09:53 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2025 09:48 KwarK wrote:On February 15 2025 09:14 Zambrah wrote:Please explain the bolded. trump is president. He won the popular vote. Most people obviously voted for this. The keyword is voted. If you didn't vote, you don't get to bitch at those that voted for the opposite of what is going on now. People can bitch at whatever they want, most people absolutely did not vote for this, most voters voted for wanting this, its an important distinction because assigning beliefs to people out of inaction is silly and is one of the many reasons that Democrats fuck up elections. Instead of viewing people who don't vote as ideologically attached to whoever wins the election (or lets be real, whoever its convenient to attach themselves to, noone ever attaches them to the Democrat side when a Democrat wins lmao) people should probably start to ask why dont people vote. I imagine the answer is people are largely disenfranchised and exhausted and depressed in a world that is very harsh and shitty to them. Voting hasnt solved any problems in their lives, they would rather sleep in than get up early and vote for two partys that demonstrably do not get a shit about their problems. People can get all game theory about why they should always vote and who they should always vote for, but it doesn't reflect reality and doesnt do anything but make Democrats look like a pack of scolds given Democrats do about as much as the average non-voter. Fuck all. To make a possibly problematic comparison, its like asking why didnt the slaves simply immediately revolt and hang their masters? They must want to be slaves! Its just more complicated than that, and in my opinion people go into a libertarian-belief-system brand logical organism mindset when people are actually messy and fractured and formed by their socieities and to some extent just want to get by in their lives within that society. Voting absolutely solves their problems. Remember how all those cities were being burned down but then the burning stopped and the cities actually grew back so completely it looks like they were never burned at all? Remember how all the bathrooms were taken over by trans women but now you don’t see them at all? Remember how there was a horde of migrants invading the country but then they all disappeared? They were bombarded with hundreds of problems each day that were equal parts confusing and terrifying. They were told that voting for a despot would solve those problems. Those problems have now all gone. The idea that Americans haven’t ever seen a government that solves their problems is simply nonsense. Hell, look at the very first days of this presidency. Southern California was on fire. Trump decisively ordered all the agricultural drought emergency reservoirs in Central California to be drained directly into the Pacific. Southern California is no longer on fire. Another win. You ivory tower elitists think you know better about the problems facing real Americans but you just don’t. You just drone on and on about macroeconomic theory or something like that has any relevance to the man on the street. What does that have to do with whether the green m&m looks fuckable? Nothing. This grim reality is the reason part of me wonders if widespread political uprising is even possible in the current age of social media. AI bots getting better, algorithms more sophisticated, people being less connected to in-person stuff. Its all super dark.
I know it sounds very conspiracy theorist, and this subject has been in that realm for a while, but really this is also something I find concerning. There has never been a better time to be a fascist dictator implementing a truthless world than right now, where AI deepfake bullshit is starting and doesnt look to be getting any form of regulation around it. What happens when you really cant trust the truth of your eyes unless youre eyes were physically present at an event?
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On February 15 2025 09:14 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +Please explain the bolded. trump is president. He won the popular vote. Most people obviously voted for this. The keyword is voted. If you didn't vote, you don't get to bitch at those that voted for the opposite of what is going on now. People can bitch at whatever they want, most people absolutely did not vote for this, most voters voted for wanting this, its an important distinction because assigning beliefs to people out of inaction is silly and is one of the many reasons that Democrats fuck up elections.
I feel like the important distinction is actually making the opposite point though: politicians aren't going to waste their time trying to appeal to non-voters, because non-voters won't impact the outcome of the election. Politicians are trying to win, and every minute and dollar wasted on someone with unrealistically high standards or someone who is too far away politically, is a minute and dollar that could be better spent towards people who might actually vote for one of the two parties that could actually win an election. Non-voters complaining comes off as lazy and insincere: *I can't believe who's running this country, especially since I did absolutely nothing to stop it from happening.*
Of course, there's a valid rebuttal about how the electoral college disenfranchises most voters who don't live in swing states, which can make voting in the general election feel futile, but I feel like most non-voters aren't making that argument, nor are they voting in local elections, nor are they trying to push for the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact, etc. Most non-voters just don't care about politics, so if they still complain, then they're part of the problem.
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On February 15 2025 09:59 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2025 09:53 Mohdoo wrote:On February 15 2025 09:48 KwarK wrote:On February 15 2025 09:14 Zambrah wrote:Please explain the bolded. trump is president. He won the popular vote. Most people obviously voted for this. The keyword is voted. If you didn't vote, you don't get to bitch at those that voted for the opposite of what is going on now. People can bitch at whatever they want, most people absolutely did not vote for this, most voters voted for wanting this, its an important distinction because assigning beliefs to people out of inaction is silly and is one of the many reasons that Democrats fuck up elections. Instead of viewing people who don't vote as ideologically attached to whoever wins the election (or lets be real, whoever its convenient to attach themselves to, noone ever attaches them to the Democrat side when a Democrat wins lmao) people should probably start to ask why dont people vote. I imagine the answer is people are largely disenfranchised and exhausted and depressed in a world that is very harsh and shitty to them. Voting hasnt solved any problems in their lives, they would rather sleep in than get up early and vote for two partys that demonstrably do not get a shit about their problems. People can get all game theory about why they should always vote and who they should always vote for, but it doesn't reflect reality and doesnt do anything but make Democrats look like a pack of scolds given Democrats do about as much as the average non-voter. Fuck all. To make a possibly problematic comparison, its like asking why didnt the slaves simply immediately revolt and hang their masters? They must want to be slaves! Its just more complicated than that, and in my opinion people go into a libertarian-belief-system brand logical organism mindset when people are actually messy and fractured and formed by their socieities and to some extent just want to get by in their lives within that society. Voting absolutely solves their problems. Remember how all those cities were being burned down but then the burning stopped and the cities actually grew back so completely it looks like they were never burned at all? Remember how all the bathrooms were taken over by trans women but now you don’t see them at all? Remember how there was a horde of migrants invading the country but then they all disappeared? They were bombarded with hundreds of problems each day that were equal parts confusing and terrifying. They were told that voting for a despot would solve those problems. Those problems have now all gone. The idea that Americans haven’t ever seen a government that solves their problems is simply nonsense. Hell, look at the very first days of this presidency. Southern California was on fire. Trump decisively ordered all the agricultural drought emergency reservoirs in Central California to be drained directly into the Pacific. Southern California is no longer on fire. Another win. You ivory tower elitists think you know better about the problems facing real Americans but you just don’t. You just drone on and on about macroeconomic theory or something like that has any relevance to the man on the street. What does that have to do with whether the green m&m looks fuckable? Nothing. This grim reality is the reason part of me wonders if widespread political uprising is even possible in the current age of social media. AI bots getting better, algorithms more sophisticated, people being less connected to in-person stuff. Its all super dark. I know it sounds very conspiracy theorist, and this subject has been in that realm for a while, but really this is also something I find concerning. There has never been a better time to be a fascist dictator implementing a truthless world than right now, where AI deepfake bullshit is starting and doesnt look to be getting any form of regulation around it. What happens when you really cant trust the truth of your eyes unless youre eyes were physically present at an event?
Yeah I could imagine a situation where the US government dedicating a great deal of resources and planning could create a profoundly confusing situation. Imagine social media turns off, we have supposed videos of this or that happening, and we truly have no idea if it is real. I feel like the right people with the technical expertise to make deepfake stuff super convincing could fool me. Or they could at least create a situation where I don't have the ability to trust videos. Totally fucked to imagine a world where video footage is as trustworthy as a tweet.
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I feel like the important distinction is actually making the opposite point though: politicians aren't going to waste their time trying to appeal to non-voters, because non-voters won't impact the outcome of the election. Politicians are trying to win, and every minute and dollar wasted on someone with unrealistically high standards or someone who is too far away politically, is a minute and dollar that could be better spent towards people who might actually vote for one of the two parties that could actually win an election.
But like, Democrats just did this with their appeal to Republicans with Cheney, they wasted minutes and dollars and, critically, enthusiasm trotting themselves out with the War Criminal family in order to appeal to people who did not and will not vote for them because they are too far away politically.
On the contrary, when Democrats win its because they increase voter turnout, they get people who might not have voted motivated enough to vote.
The mentality you're talking about here is the predominant Democrat mentality and its extremely obviously a failure, its one that their dipshit consultants will keep pushing and it'll keep making for unfathomably stupid Democrat losses so long as they stick to it.
Non-voters complaining comes off as lazy and insincere: *I can't believe who's running this country, especially since I did absolutely nothing to stop it from happening.*
Can you blame them when Republicans are monsters and the only other option is also wildly lazy and insincere? The average voter doesnt have any real power that they can exercise on their own, voters count on their elected officials acting in their best interest, improving their lives and solving their problems, Democrats sometimes have okay proposed solutions that they dont even really wind up fighting for. Like how can anyone look at Democrats and find them anything other than lazy and insincere?
If Democrats offered some real vision, and really fought for their vision we might see an electorate thats more excited to actually fight themselves. I mean shit, the MAGA types are a good example of this, Trump gets them all hot and bothered and he gets people who wouldnt vote to vote.
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United States42217 Posts
They literally don’t need to. The part of 1984 that Orwell got wrong was Winston’s job going back into the records and editing the past so that the past always conformed with the Party’s chosen reality. It turns out that was completely unnecessary, you don’t even need to make the present agree with the Party’s chosen reality. People literally do not care. Jan 6 was always a deep state false flag and the protesters were always Aunt Tifa and they were also all innocent and patriots and Trump was right to pardon them. You don’t need to deep fake Trump talking about his friendship with Epstein and how they both love young girls, it’s on video, but Trump was always going to bring down the billionaire pedo elites. Winston wasted his time, Oceania was always at war with X, that’s what was always true, it doesn’t matter what X is, it matters that the person saying it is on my team.
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Northern Ireland24293 Posts
On February 15 2025 09:53 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2025 09:48 KwarK wrote:On February 15 2025 09:14 Zambrah wrote:Please explain the bolded. trump is president. He won the popular vote. Most people obviously voted for this. The keyword is voted. If you didn't vote, you don't get to bitch at those that voted for the opposite of what is going on now. People can bitch at whatever they want, most people absolutely did not vote for this, most voters voted for wanting this, its an important distinction because assigning beliefs to people out of inaction is silly and is one of the many reasons that Democrats fuck up elections. Instead of viewing people who don't vote as ideologically attached to whoever wins the election (or lets be real, whoever its convenient to attach themselves to, noone ever attaches them to the Democrat side when a Democrat wins lmao) people should probably start to ask why dont people vote. I imagine the answer is people are largely disenfranchised and exhausted and depressed in a world that is very harsh and shitty to them. Voting hasnt solved any problems in their lives, they would rather sleep in than get up early and vote for two partys that demonstrably do not get a shit about their problems. People can get all game theory about why they should always vote and who they should always vote for, but it doesn't reflect reality and doesnt do anything but make Democrats look like a pack of scolds given Democrats do about as much as the average non-voter. Fuck all. To make a possibly problematic comparison, its like asking why didnt the slaves simply immediately revolt and hang their masters? They must want to be slaves! Its just more complicated than that, and in my opinion people go into a libertarian-belief-system brand logical organism mindset when people are actually messy and fractured and formed by their socieities and to some extent just want to get by in their lives within that society. Voting absolutely solves their problems. Remember how all those cities were being burned down but then the burning stopped and the cities actually grew back so completely it looks like they were never burned at all? Remember how all the bathrooms were taken over by trans women but now you don’t see them at all? Remember how there was a horde of migrants invading the country but then they all disappeared? They were bombarded with hundreds of problems each day that were equal parts confusing and terrifying. They were told that voting for a despot would solve those problems. Those problems have now all gone. The idea that Americans haven’t ever seen a government that solves their problems is simply nonsense. Hell, look at the very first days of this presidency. Southern California was on fire. Trump decisively ordered all the agricultural drought emergency reservoirs in Central California to be drained directly into the Pacific. Southern California is no longer on fire. Another win. You ivory tower elitists think you know better about the problems facing real Americans but you just don’t. You just drone on and on about macroeconomic theory or something like that has any relevance to the man on the street. What does that have to do with whether the green m&m looks fuckable? Nothing. This grim reality is the reason part of me wonders if widespread political uprising is even possible in the current age of social media. AI bots getting better, algorithms more sophisticated, people being less connected to in-person stuff. Its all super dark.
Depends how you define ‘widespread political uprising’ I suppose.
I’d contend MAGA is basically that, the problem is it’s fucking shit.
Brexit (today’s mention) was to a degree as well.
Does it align with certain interests, who leverage their financial might to push it? Sure? Is it absolutely 100% organic and grass-roots in nature? No, but it’s also closer to that than it is to 0%.
I think sections of the left like to ignore some of the reality of this state of affairs.
I absolutely share concerns about the new info sphere, and AI is going to make it a fuckload worse. Regular readers know I bang on about this all the time.
But certain elements of it aren’t really exclusively beneficial to right-wing politics either. For example YouTube’s algorithm will direct someone right-adjacent to more such content, and eventually towards more extreme versions of this, but the same goes for the left-curious.
Like I basically don’t get a recommended video that isn’t about one of Starcraft, Warhammer 40K, guitar playing or LeftTube as that’s basically all I consume.
Where I do think the right disproportionately benefits is the decline in general trusted central pillars of information, and the ‘choose your own adventure’ nature of social media.
Current right wing politics isn’t particularly ideologically based, or that concerned with evidence-based policy, so a ‘post-truth’ world absolutely helps there. Yeah there is an underlying ideology, but it’s not what most of them say their ideology is.
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On February 15 2025 10:22 KwarK wrote:
They literally don’t need to. The part of 1984 that Orwell got wrong was Winston’s job going back into the records and editing the past so that the past always conformed with the Party’s chosen reality. It turns out that was completely unnecessary, you don’t even need to make the present agree with the Party’s chosen reality. People literally do not care. Jan 6 was always a deep state false flag and the protesters were always Aunt Tifa and they were also all innocent and patriots and Trump was right to pardon them. You don’t need to deep fake Trump talking about his friendship with Epstein and how they both love young girls, it’s on video, but Trump was always going to bring down the billionaire pedo elites. Winston wasted his time, Oceania was always at war with X, that’s what was always true, it doesn’t matter what X is, it matters that the person saying it is on my team.
Depressingly true for a too large segment of the population.
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this shit bananas. just firing people until you find someone willing to drop the case. that’s fucking crazy. absolutely disgusting.
i’d love to be surprised but hochul won’t do shit.
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On February 15 2025 07:43 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2025 02:30 Jockmcplop wrote:On February 15 2025 02:13 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On February 15 2025 02:01 Jockmcplop wrote:On February 15 2025 01:57 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On February 15 2025 01:42 Jockmcplop wrote:On February 15 2025 00:58 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On February 15 2025 00:53 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 15 2025 00:11 Jockmcplop wrote:On February 15 2025 00:08 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
[quote]
While that's semantically correct, keep in mind those people are still complicit in the death, destruction, and chaos in Gaza, just like everyone else. They don't have any moral high ground in regards to what's been going on in Gaza, or any future devastation there. Additionally, those non-Democratic voters certainly didn't vote for any domestic improvements either. I disagree. Simply existing does make you complicit in anything. Making a positive choice to be complicit in something makes you complicit. Let me put this another way. How is a person supposed to convince the Democrats to change their policy without threatening to withhold their vote, and actually meaning it? It is the only lever anybody has. What do you mean by "change their policy"? The Democratic policy wouldn't improve as a result of them losing the election; the only thing that would change is that Palestinians would have to deal with the Republican policy, which is even worse. Biden worked to create a ceasefire between Hamas and Israel - the very one that's still mostly working right now, even while Trump is president - and during the election, Harris repeatedly pledged to continue pushing for a peaceful end where Gaza/Palestinians aren't completely overrun by Israel. The Democrats' two-state solution where Palestinians still exist would have been a much better situation than what Trump was/is pushing for, where he's okay with Israel taking over completely. The non-Democratic voters worked against the Democrats' vision and ended up aiding the Republicans' vision, which is about as anti-Gaza as you could get. (One could argue that Biden/Harris didn't/wouldn't do everything in their power to stop Netanyahu, and that Biden/Harris are extremely flawed when it comes to this issue, but they're still miles ahead of Trump's vision... and non-Democratic voters weren't willing to pick the more helpful of the two options.) It's like talking to the Rs in this thread. The people like Jock and GH have this moral highground that they're unwilling to come down off of because they can't fathom being wrong in this case. The people who voted Ds aren't complicit in the war in Gaza or Ukraine. They're trying to get people in positions to stop it using democratic methods. Now they have to justify fuckin up the vote and convince themselves that abstaining from participating was the correct choice. Conciousness aside. This isn't about the right thing to do, it's about what makes them feel better when they go to sleep. "I tried but no one listened, guess that's all I can do. Time for napsies." This is the third time i've told I'm trying to take the moral high ground, when I joined this conversation to try and empathize with the people that Dem voters were claiming were responsible for everything Trump is doing. It is you (collective), not I, who was taking the moral high ground, and you don't even notice yourselves doing it. Its not like the Democrats haven't been told, repeatedly, by every single non Democrat in America, that this behaviour is a massive turn off and gives out the impression that a) The Democrats and their voters believe they have the moral high ground absolutely b) Are perfectly happy telling everyone else they are evil c) Are incredibly arrogant about their self-defined position on the top of the moral superiority pyramid. The problem is the refusal to even try and see anyone else's point of view. I've been told in this very thread that if I was a Palestinian who has watched their family slaughtered because of the policies of Democrats, that I should still vote Democrat. The lack of empathy is absolutely astonishing tbh. On February 15 2025 01:08 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 15 2025 00:59 Jockmcplop wrote:On February 15 2025 00:53 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 15 2025 00:11 Jockmcplop wrote:
[quote]
I disagree.
Simply existing does make you complicit in anything. Making a positive choice to be complicit in something makes you complicit.
Let me put this another way. How is a person supposed to convince the Democrats to change their policy without threatening to withhold their vote, and actually meaning it? It is the only lever anybody has. What do you mean by "change their policy"? The Democratic policy wouldn't improve as a result of them losing the election; the only thing that would change is that Palestinians would have to deal with the Republican policy, which is even worse. Biden worked to create a ceasefire between Hamas and Israel - the very one that's still mostly working right now, even while Trump is president - and during the election, Harris repeatedly pledged to continue pushing for a peaceful end where Gaza/Palestinians aren't completely overrun by Israel. The Democrats' two-state solution where Palestinians still exist would have been a much better situation than what Trump was/is pushing for, where he's okay with Israel taking over completely. The non-Democratic voters worked against the Democrats' vision and ended up aiding the Republicans' vision, which is about as anti-Gaza as you could get. (One could argue that Biden/Harris didn't/wouldn't do everything in their power to stop Netanyahu, and that Biden/Harris are extremely flawed when it comes to this issue, but they're still miles ahead of Trump's vision... and non-Democratic voters weren't willing to pick the more helpful of the two options.) By 'change their policy' I mean stop selling the weapons that kill the civilians in Gaza, stop unconditionally supporting any extremity of action that Israel decides is appropriate, and stop being the single world power who more than anyone else has caused this genocide to occur. Sure, well done, they engineered a ceasefire after so many civilians unnecessarily died at the hands of the US's little brother while the Democrats sat there and applauded, but for me, that doesn't inspire me to vote for them. I get it, you are unconditionally a Dem voter, but you shouldn't assume that everyone else will give their vote out so easily. And let's be clear here, the Democrats' vision wasn't a ceasefire and then peace forever, it was a ceasefire that allows them restock Israel with newer, more expensive weapons for the next round of massacre in a few years. Okay, so let's play it out your way, according to your argument: A bunch of people decided not to vote for Kamala Harris because they were convinced that Harris losing would result in the Democrats finally changing their Israel-Palestine policy to be more pro-Palestine and less pro-Israel. How'd that plan work out for you / the non-Democratic voters? Do we see any indication that the Democratic party is now shifting towards being more pro-Palestine? Do we have any reason to think that Palestinians will be safer, thanks to non-Democratic voters aiding Trump? In the short term, for the next few years, you have a good point here. It all falls apart if you look any further ahead than that. Why would the democrats ever need to listen to what their voters want again? They can just dictate what you are going to vote for and you'll vote for it to keep the Republicans out. Long term, I believe it is very helpful for political parties to genuinely believe that people will stop voting for them if they don't listen to their voters. That is the entire purpose of not voting Democrat in this case. It isn't going to make the lives of people in Gaza better, that horse has bolted. The ship has sailed. The people of Gaza are fucked because the Democrats decided it could be so. Maybe though, next time the Democrats are in the middle of a genocide and an election is coming up, they'll think twice about their policies. We recognized what the Ds did in the campaign that probably led to their defeat and we also gave a lot of benefit of the doubt to what was being said. But time and time again, all we're getting are people bashing the D party for things that the Rs did or refused to cooperate on. So all you're doing, by continuing to bash Ds and not hold Rs responsible for the shitshow we're currently seeing, is allowing them to grab more of the power. We understand the problems and have offered solutions. But those solutions aren't palatable to people like you and GH (collective). What you effectively want are for the Ds to assume total power and just kick the Rs out and invite a civil war to try and accelerate whatever asinine ideas you dream up. That isn't how it works. This entire thread is just a circular argument. I don't think I have a moral superiority over you or GH. But I know that pouting because your ideal candidate didn't get in and handing the country to fascism isn't the play. Either put up or shut up. If you're not going to participate, then what grounds do you have to stand on to tell those that are, what to do? At the end of the day, we're a bunch of strangers on the internet arguing. It's not helping. Again, this simply is not what happened and is not reflective of my participation in the discussion at all. You're acting like I just turned up and started blaming Democrats for everything. I'm here because I just don't buy the argument that was being made that anyone who didn't vote Democrat is responsible for everything that Trump decides to do. You are flipping that on its head and claiming that in defending those people, I'm somehow attacking the Democrats. edited for niceness And I'm saying that it is precisely the issue of them not supporting the platform that allowed this takeover. I'm not saying you personally, it's a collective. GH sits here and shits on the Ds for failing, but at the same time, it was enough people who were Ds that voted trump/third party/did not vote that caused this. And they are assigned some of the blame. To pin it all on the Ds is shifting blame so that they don't have to feel bad. You're welcome to defend them and I'm sure they and others appreciate it. But at the end of the day, they are also to blame and should be held accountable for that as well as the D party. The D voters voted to keep trump out and it didn't work. The messaging was bad and the play was bad. But to now sit back and attack D voters because they voted? What's the angle or prize you're fishing for? The prize I'm fishing for I suppose is a Democrat party that listens to its voters a little bit more, or frankly a Democrat party that listens to voters who share my perspective on world events. I don't think I'll see that in my lifetime, but I definitely won't see it if people give the Democrat their vote unconditionally. I'm also fishing for just a little bit of give and take here. I understand the argument that rationally, voting for the Dems is marginally better for the people of Gaza in the short term. I think in the long term it is worse for reasons I have described. I also think that some acknowledgement that rationality, although very important, can be overridden in certain circumstances. Of course no Palestinian is going to vote for the party that took part in the slaughter of their family. Engaging with the topic on a human level, that should be obvious. Yet even when discussing that quite extreme example, people fall back on logic and rationality and refuse to empathize with those for whom that kind of discussion has gone out of the window. There's a whole middle ground as well with general Middle-Eastern voters who feel that it is 'their people' that the Democrats have taken part in killing. I would wager that for alot of those people, voting rationally for a tiny percentage gain in survivability for the people of Gaza has gone out of the window just through sheer anger and sadness. To dismiss this and then blame those people for what Trump is doing is something I just can't get my head around. Then we finally get to the people on this forum who are making arguments. There's no recognition that maybe some people engage with these world events on an emotional level and simply cannot bring themselves to vote for people who are taking part in genocide. There's no 'Maybe these people think completely different to how I think about events'. Its simply a numbers game. Calculate the percentage and vote accordingly. Rationality wins. Except as we've seen, it doesn't. The human element of this, the refusal to take part in something that a person sees as evil, is important even if it seems irrational and the numbers don't add up in the very short term. I think, by and large quite a lot of the thread broadly agree with rather a lot of this, at least based on posting histories. I know I do, broadly, speaking! I think the friction point comes from something of a have your cake and eat it scenario. Voting is complicity in whatever thing crosses a red line, but the consequences of that don’t have anything to do with me. I also think people here are perfectly aware of the emotive element of politics, but this also swings both ways. I’m sure trans folk are feeling quite a lot of strong emotions now they’re at the political mercy of the GOP for the next wee stretch. More generally I’ve consistently bemoaned the combo of don’t court the left/blame them for political losses, not just in the States and elsewhere, so you’re basically preaching to the converted. But speaking of the converted, well you gotta convert people. Bridges have to be built or we’re collectively fucked. If roughly half of the country is now what medicine would clinically term completely fucking mental, there’s only so much of a post-mortem and blame apportioning the rest can indulge in before that elephant in the room shuffles over and smacks you with its glorious, glistening trunk. It need not necessitate dropping one’s principles either, for the most part, merely communicate and build things better. It need not necessitate eating the delicious dish of humble pie either, but folks are gonna have to concede some things. In terms of individuals in the populace, not the Dem Party, folks pursued courses of action aligning with their values, that they earnestly thought would work. But it didn’t work, hey it happens.
I don't know how someone who didn't vote Democrat can build a bridge to the people saying 'anyone who didn't vote Democrat is the enemy'.
It looks very much like that's an unbridgeable gap, unfortunately. Such is the extreme nature of US politics. The bridge you're wanting to build looks increasingly like a no man's land in a trench war.
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